Mining Base Defense: Intrusion - Strategy notes

[TaigaUC]

Quick list of strategy notes for the new Mining Base Defense: Intrusion.
Thought it'd be good to have a new thread for quick reference.
I'll revise the list as time goes on. I haven't gone through the JP swiki for information yet.

Class-based Strategic Positioning Image: (from MMOLoda)
[spoiler-box]http://mmoloda.com/pso2/image/29630.jpg
2-3 Gu, Br on the left and on the right:
Stay in these areas and kill everything in sight, tag enemies to protect wall

3-5 Fo, Te, Ra in the center:
Support the left and right. If there are too many Br or Gu, they can be part of this group and adapt to the situation as necessary.

1 Hu, Fi at each tower behind the wall, and 1 waiting at the jump pad in front of green:
Protect from mantises, infections and the bomb, collect crystals, etc.
[/spoiler-box]

Key Points for Victory:
[spoiler-box]- Walls must not break. All enemies should be immediately tagged (and killed) to prevent them from attacking the walls.
- Pay attention to what other people are doing, ie. don't all jump south and leave north undefended, don't all run left and leave right undefended, etc (thanks Chdata)
- Bosses must be killed or incapacitated immediately. Tag with War Cry or big damage on spawn for best results (thx Unlucky, adios, and everyone else who uses War Cry).
- Mantises must not teleport, and if they do, they need to be killed immediately.
- Infections must be destroyed ASAP.
- If Biblas manages to get a bomb out, either kill him quickly, have someone waiting at green, or immediately use the side teleporters to get to green and destroy it.
- If you have only one WBer, make an effort to resurrect them if they die. Don't wait until the wave is over.
- If you have aggro, turn/move bosses away from walls and towers.
- Don't all run over to the other side or jump to towers if there are no spawns nearby, always make sure at least 2 people remain on standby.
[/spoiler-box]

General Notes:
[spoiler-box]- Middle jump pads move north, side jump pads move south.
- Start with defending up north. Fall back to the towers as walls are lost.
- When walls break, enemies can spawn from the sides. For this reason, preventing walls from breaking is top priority (thanks Chdata for emphasis).
- Enemies may sometimes spawn behind walls in later waves (thanks Rien) but personally I have yet to see this.
- Make sure someone attacks the infections on the towers (don't waste burst barrier on it, unless you're absolutely sure you won't lose any walls).
- It may be best to wait by the wall instead of at enemy spawn points.
- Infections on towers only spawn at wave 3 and onward.
- Having 1 or 2 Weak Bullet users and 1 War Cry user can help a lot.
- Wall health can be roughly determined by how damaged they visually appear. A good group shouldn't see any dents until much later waves.
- Wall damage will still show red numbers. You can also use this to see mantises damaging towers before they appear.
- Even a single unchecked Goldrada pounding on a wall can quickly make dents.
[/spoiler-box]

Crystals:
[spoiler-box]- 2000 points are required for the barrier; 3000 crystals required for heal (thanks doomdragon83).
- Turret cost: 1st at 500?, 2nd at 1000, cannons unlocked at 5000 and 8000.
- Only one barrier and one heal per player, per run (thanks doomdragon83 for confirmation).
- At every opportunity, pick up crystals. During breaks, pick up crystals.
- Having a dedicated person picking up crystals in the lower parts of the map helps a lot.
- Crystals spawn all around the border and center of the north area, and around the edges and center of the base areas surrounding the towers.
- If you have WBers and War Cry, as well as a very competent and powerful group (Gunners and Bravers, mantises and infections in check) you can likely ignore crystals entirely.
[/spoiler-box]

Regular Enemies:
[spoiler-box]- Most enemies seem to go straight for walls, some will go for towers.
- Tagging Goldradas, Mantises, etc seems to prevent them from going for walls/towers.
- Mantises (Dicarda, Predicarda) can teleport behind walls, straight to the nearest tower (possibly further?). You must stop them before they go into the teleport animation.
- Mantises that spawn on the right can teleport to the left tower (they will travel diagonally, indicating their target).
- The new darker enemy "Vidluda" (looks like a beetle) will do a spinning jump that stuns, and also throws red scythe projectiles that stun.
- For those who don't know, cyclops Darkers can be stunned/blinded by destroying their crotch or their eye.
- Note that when walls are down, enemies sometimes seem to be able to run down the center portion of the map.
- Enemies may run diagonally from their spawn points if one side of a wall is down.
- When walls are down, enemies seem to pick random targets (ie. they can run from mid-left to lower-right).
- Zondeel, Chaos Riser, etc are good for collecting enemies (thanks various people that I'm too lazy to look up because I'm sick of PUGs sucking at this TD)
- Unlike the first TD having only one pack after Biblas, around 3 or 4 packs will spawn AFTER Biblas dies (even if you clear all spawns before he dies).
- Goldradas may be able to leap over walls (unconfirmed, doesn't seem to be actually be possible).
[/spoiler-box]

Enemy Spawn Points: (thanks Rien, revised by me)
[spoiler-box]- All walls up: enemies spawn at top left or top right of map, sometimes center? Beware that they won't always spawn right at the top, but sometimes a little further down.
- First wall(s) down: enemies will spawn at both the top and to the side of the northern-most towers (left/right depends on whether that wall is intact).
- Second wall(s) down: enemies will spawn north and also to the sides of all towers. Very difficult to control.
- If only one side of a wall is destroyed: Goldradas can spawn right on top of tower of that lane and the line before the next wall (thanks Rehal).
- If only one side of a wall is destroyed, bosses randomly spawn at either row of "current" wall (ie. may spawn at top-north, or mid-north, depending on walls being up or down)
- Enemies can sometimes spawn in mid-center (or on players?).
- Bosses will randomly spawn either furthest north or near the last jump pad that leads north.
[/spoiler-box]

Bosses:
Zeshirayda (wave 3):
[spoiler-box]- With all walls up, only spawns at top north center. Not sure of otherwise.
- Usually spawns after the first wave 3 regular enemies spawn, but sometimes spawns immediately (only if it's the rare version, Rigshirayda?)
- War Cry may be effective in keeping him away from towers.
- Zeshirayda should be flipped as soon as possible (ie. break his leg, or watch for his head poking out, and then attack it).
- Once he's flipped, focus on the head or exposed chest weak point (preferably the chest, but be warned that you must manually WB above the weak point, not lock onto it).
- Keep Zeshirayda away from the wall if possible, as he can damage it in various ways.
- If you have aggro, turn the boss away from walls and towers.
- The person with aggro should stay close to Zeshirayda to prevent him from charging (thanks Atmius).
[/spoiler-box]

Two Wolgardas (wave 4):
[spoiler-box]- Both Wolgardas can spawn either on the same side of wall or one per side. Spawn position doesn't always seem to be the same place, but is roughly around mid-section in front of a wall.
- If a wall is down, they may spawn near the north towers (unsure).
- Wolgardas sometimes spawn about 10 seconds into a wave, and sometimes they spawn immediately. Sometimes they won't spawn for a whole minute.
- Wolgarda poses briefly when he spawns. If possible, kill him during that (easy for Gunners with Messiah Time or Heel Stab, just aim for his face).
- Wolgarda enrages when he is low on health, this also makes him easy to kill.
- A skilled Satellite Cannon user can kill Wolgarda in a few seconds.
- If you have aggro, turn the boss away from walls and towers.
[/spoiler-box]

Dark Ragne (wave 5):
[spoiler-box]- If all walls are up, Ragne will always spawn at top center north. If a wall is down, Ragne may spawn either top center north, or near the north-most middle jump pad, in front of the center elevated structure.
- Sometimes spawns after a short delay, sometimes immediately.
- Ragne can break walls with the initial jump (hits for 900 damage twice?)
- War Cry stops Ragne from jumping.
- Smacking Ragne with fat damage before the jump animation starts (ie. immediately after spawn) also prevents Ragne from jumping. (thanks Unlucky and adios for the info)
- Focus on one leg, then the core.
- A skilled Satellite Cannon user can kill Ragne in a few seconds.
- If you have aggro, turn the boss away from walls and towers.
[/spoiler-box]

Dark Biblas (final wave):
[spoiler-box]- If all walls are up, Biblas will always spawn at top center north. If a wall is down, Biblas may spawn either top center north, or near the north-most middle jump pad, in front of the center elevated structure.
- War Cry on Biblas and holding him up north is bad if walls are down (takes a while to run back) unless people stay on defense.
- Biblas always throws the bomb at green (bottom-most tower), UNLESS green is already destroyed, in which case he will throw at another, possibly orange (thanks Unlucky)
- Biblas can throw two bombs, although it's very rare and may require the first to have been successful (thanks Unlucky)
- As before, focus on a leg to stun him, and then attack his upper red butt.
- Refer to my Biblas bomb guide (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217378) for details on Biblas' bomb.
- Again, unlike the first TD having only one pack, around 3 or 4 packs will spawn AFTER Biblas dies.
- If you have aggro, turn the boss away from walls and towers.
[/spoiler-box]

Rank:
[spoiler-box]- 86% is still an S. I'm assuming the cut-off point is either 80% or 85%.
- 76% is an A (477/500)
- 61% is an A (381/500)
[/spoiler-box]

Drops:
[spoiler-box]- The same clone weapons as before.
- The same Falz 11 stars as before can drop (Elysion, Nasuyoteri, etc).
- New selection of 10 stars, including Heretically, Amaterasu, Acro Cane, Cannon/Launcher Legacy, Lambda Kougongin, etc.
- New selection of 7, 8 and 9 stars including some previously hard-to-get drops (eg. Kyastiron katana)
- New 11 star spear, katana, launcher and staff
[/spoiler-box]

Strategies:
Rien's Cookie-Cutter Survival Strategy:
[spoiler-box]Waves 1-3: 1 person at every tower, remaining 7 players clean out the north.
Wave 4: Begin to fall back. Frontmost towers should have 2 players each with 1-2 in the gap between. 3-4 still in front.
Wave 5: Everyone falls back. 1 person at every tower minimum again (because they love to put infections on the back towers)
[/spoiler-box]

TaigaUC's Theoretically-Sound Strategy:
[spoiler-box]- 1 dedicated player gathering crystals in the bottom-most area. Same player should also watch for Biblas' bomb.
- 2 players watching the towers behind walls, for teleporting mantises and infections (one player on the left, the other on the right).
- Everyone else stays north.
- Protecting the wall is top priority, so always tag all enemies if possible.
- Kill or stun bosses ASAP.
- In between waves, all northern players gather crystals in the top and middle areas.
- If walls are lost, reassign 2 players to guard each vulnerable tower (ie. vulnerable to nearby enemy spawns).
[/spoiler-box]

Super Steamroller Strategy: (not created by me, I've just seen people doing it)
[spoiler-box]- Requires a powerful and competent group.
- Ignore crystals.
- At least 1 WBer, if 2 then have one on each side of the wall.
- A few players at the spawn points, a few at the walls.
- Tag all enemies as they appear, then destroy them. If all goes well, mantises won't get to teleport.
- Have a few people destroying infections as they spawn (wave 3 onwards).
- War Cry on Zeshirayda?, Ragne and Biblas as they appear.
- Incapacitate all bosses immediately and then destroy them via weak points.
[/spoiler-box]

FireswordRus' tips:
[spoiler-box]- If all walls not destroyed on the final wave, assign 1 player to green tower (Biblas bomb).
- Tank Fi/Hu War cry>Massive Hunter>Chaos Riser>Illusion Rave>Chaos Riser
Chaos Riser works fine, to move mobs from wall (with full gear, radius and power doubled) it's a little Zondeel
- Tank Ra/Hu War Cry>massive Hunter>Stun Grenade>spam Satellite Cannon> this works good too
- Need 2-3 players with War Cry 1 in the center, 2 players on each side, if walls are destroyed, 2 players go to south
[/spoiler-box]

Chdata' tips:
[spoiler-box]- Pay attention to what other people are doing.
- Don't jump back to handle infections, when 5 other people already are. If you're one of the first, then you're probably fine. Hopefully other people won't follow you.
- If you see everyone run to the left side of the map, while it's still expected for stuff to spawn on the right after those die, be the one guy who stays on the right and spawn kills everything there while everyone else is running back to that side (which would usually allow mobs to get some hits on the wall).
[/spoiler-box]

Aine's tips on aiming for 4 runs in a private MPA:
[spoiler-box]- If you're on pace for 4 runs, you will simply not reach 2000 points before the end of quest, so don't bother picking up crystals. Don't let them distract you.

- One party takes care of each side. The third party takes care of spawns in the center (early waves) and bosses. Once the bosses are dead the center party can retreat and take care of infections.

- Zesh dies on the spot from Hatou to the shin and Shunka to the core. Wolgas die to Shunka to the face. Ragne can be stopped, but it may be better to let him jump since he always lands in the same place, you can prepare for it and take him out together with the mobs. The center party should be able to handle these bosses by themselves, while the outer parties take care of mobs.

- Biblas can be killed on the spot the same way as in TD1 (Hatou to the leg, Hatou to the abdomen), but unlike TD1 where you can gather everyone to kill Biblas and get back to the towers in time for the mobs, you'll need to have about two people on either side to take care of the spawns. Even with only eight people you should still be able to kill Biblas in one down, if you have enough Bravers.

- Memorizing spawns is the key to faster times. There's no way about this one, in TD1 you could still get 4 runs spawn camping even if you didn't have every single pattern memorized. Even though TD2 is simpler, you are more pressed for time so there's no leeway for mistakes. You need to be there when the mobs spawn and pull aggro instantly with Kanran. If you ever need to use War Cry, that means you (or someone else on your side) fucked up.

- We've tried Br11Ra1 and Br9Fo2Ra1, both were about the same. Force is there to pull aggro instantly from spawns with Gi Foie, rather than Zondeel.
[/spoiler-box]

Class-specific Tips: (more to come later, if I can be bothered)
Hunter:
[spoiler-box]- War Cry is useful on bosses.
- ?
[/spoiler-box]

Fighter:
[spoiler-box]- The new Double Saber PA is good for keeping enemies away from towers.
- ?
[/spoiler-box]

Ranger:
[spoiler-box]- Always keep WB (Weak Bullet) pre-loaded (ie. always refresh it when it's available)
- If you are a WB user, check the list of names and classes for other Rangers that may be using WB, and guard the opposite side from them (so that WBs don't overlap).
- When there are no bosses, put WB up on as many Goldradas as possible. If there are large mantises, or boosted mantises, WB them as well.
- Tag large groups with Satellite Cannon (uncharged).
- Put WB on Wolgarda's center, and then fully charged Satellite Cannon that center point (lock-on probably helps). You should do around 250k damage and hopefully kill it.
- It may be viable to WB Zeshirayda's head and then Satellite Cannon his head, but I think he's likely to shell-up or charge away (untested, need confirmation).
- Preferably WB Zeshirayda's leg to flip him, so as to prevent movement. Can use Satellite Cannon to tag Zeshirayda, but must stay close or he will charge away (thanks Atmius).
- When WBing Zeshirayda's exposed belly core, you need to manually aim slightly above it (it has a strange hitbox) or your WB will magically appear on its back.
- You can prevent Ragne from the spawn leap: position yourself to the side of Ragne's spawn point (either the north mound or the vertical line in front of the the elevated center) and fire when you see Ragne's spawn effect. If it works and you aim correctly, you should hit around the core area for 10-20k multiple times, and Ragne will either jump towards you or not jump at all.
- Ra/Hu can possibly solo Ragne. Requires rank 16 Diffusion Shell and Impact Slider.
- To solo Ragne: Pick a leg to WB Ragne (make sure you're on the side that's likely to face you when Ragne is stunned, or if not, simply break another leg that IS facing you). WB the leg, lock onto it and then use Impact Slider or Diffusion Shell (SatCan takes too long). Once the leg's outer shell breaks, repeat to stun Ragne.
- When Ragne is stunned, manually aim and shoot slightly above the core. Time the WB into a SatCan, making sure you get Just Attack and Standing Snipe bonus, and then fully-charged SatCan Ragne's core by manually aiming at the floor in front of you, near the core, or above the core (it's a little iffy sometimes). If you are successful, you should hit Ragne's core for 100k x 5 damage, killing Ragne instantly.
- For Biblas, position at spawn point and unleash a fully-charged SatCan when Biblas' cutscene ends, preferably so that it hits a leg. Immediately WB that leg, and Biblas will likely be stunned.
- When Biblas is down, place WB on the top red portion of its butt. Immediately try to get a fully-charged SatCan in (timing is tight). It's easier if someone else is doing the WB.
- Whenever Biblas stands up, WB a leg and then Impact Slider or Diffuse Shell it to stun (requires rank 16 for both). Repeat the above.
[/spoiler-box]

Gunner:
[spoiler-box]- Shift Period is not as effective here, because enemies are all over the place.
- Heel Stab, Infinity Fire, etc are good for tagging enemies and doing damage.
[/spoiler-box]

Force/Techer:
[spoiler-box]- Il Grants seems to be good for tagging enemies and/or panicking them.
- FREEZE IS EVERYBODY'S FRIEND (thanks everyone who has a brain)
- Il Foie may be useful for tagging enemies.
- Use Zondeel (preferably with Territory Burst, and perhaps in conjunction with freeze) to keep enemies away from towers.
- Casters have more range than others, so they can stand in center map and cover both sides.
- Wand Gear/Lovers isn't useful unless all walls are down.
- Keep everyone buffed with Shifta.
[/spoiler-box]

Braver:
[spoiler-box]- Shunka Shunka Shunka Shunran.
- A well-aimed and well-timed Hatou Rindou can tag Ragne on spawn.
[/spoiler-box]

[Chdata]

Step 1: Make sure the first wall doesn't break.

[Rien]

There are ultimately 3 spawn areas:

1) Far north: The first three waves take place here. Zeshreida and Wolgahda spawns here.

2) Behind the first wall: Wave 4 onwards have spawns here seemingly regardless of wall health. Dark Ragne spawns here.

3) Behind the second wall: Wave 5 onwards have spawns here seemingly regardless of wall health. Dark Vibras/Beiber spawns here.

Cookie cutter strategy (meaning, not super elite sub-7minute run strategy, just a survival strat that gets you through the run)

Waves 1-3: 1 person at every tower, remaining 7 players clean out the north.

Wave 4: Begin to fall back. Frontmost towers should have 2 players each with 1-2 in the gap between. 3-4 still in front.

Wave 5: Everyone falls back. 1 person at every tower minimum again (because they love to put infections on the back towers)

[doomdragon83]

Crystals:
- 2000 points are required for the barrier; 3000 crystals required for heal.

and you can only do these actions once per run as you said.

[TaigaUC]

@Rein
I never saw enemies spawning behind the wall on later waves in any of the runs I've been in.
You're sure they weren't mantises teleporting there?

Boss spawn positions change depending on whether wall is broken.
They always spawn in front of the "current" wall.

[Rien]

@Rein
I never saw enemies spawning behind the wall on later waves in any of the runs I've been in.
You're sure they weren't mantises teleporting there?

Boss spawn positions change depending on whether wall is broken.
They always spawn in front of the "current" wall.

It was gohlradas, and if they didn't spawn there I don't know how they got there because I'm pretty sure they can't leap over the wall.

[UnLucky]

They can walk around the wall if one side is broken, not sure if they can spawn beyond one that's still up, though.

It makes a huge difference killing Zesh at the spawn. Makes the next wave a lot easier if you have all walls up.

[TaigaUC]

It was gohlradas, and if they didn't spawn there I don't know how they got there because I'm pretty sure they can't leap over the wall.

I think I saw a Goldrada leap over the wall once.
Not sure though, as I didn't see it come down after.

We'll have to do more research.

The spawn stuff is kinda silly because there's nothing stopping them from just teleporting anywhere.
Unless the walls have some kind of anti-teleport field built in, which is pretty poor technological design.

[Rehal]

If one side of wall get destroyed Gold can spawn right on top of tower of that lane and the line before the next wall

[Chdata]

That's an attack. They can't get past a wall unless it's broken.

It seems to me that bosses only spawn behind if a wall is broken, but I'm not sure.

[TaigaUC]

I know they have a leap attack.
I wonder if they can "leap attack" over the wall?

[Bellion]

They can't leap over walls. If you have all of your walls up, then they can only spawn at the very top.

If a wall breaks at all, they can begin spawning to the sides and mid sections.
The Dicada types can teleport to a tower regardless of your wall situation if you just ignore them.

[TaigaUC]

So say if you have top-right wall up, and top-left wall down.
Does that mean they can spawn on the mid-right? Because that'd be kinda dumb.
I haven't seen that myself.

[Rehal]

If top-left wall is down they can spawn near top-left tower and mid-left section then rush down to mid wall. Dunno if it can appear on the other side too.

[Bellion]

Well, they can start to spawn mid-left and mid in addition to where they spawn up North in that situation, but not mid-right. If a wall breaks Biblas can spawn either mid or North and preparing a spawn kill in that case is a coin toss.

[TaigaUC]

Hmm, so bosses don't always spawn in front of the current wall row.

[FireswordRus]

TaigaUC's Theoretically-Sound Strategy:
- 1 dedicated player gathering crystals in the bottom-most area. Same player should also watch for Biblas' bomb.
- 2 players watching the towers behind walls, for teleporting mantises and infections (one player on the left, the other on the right).
- Everyone else stays north.
- Protecting the wall is top priority, so always tag all enemies if possible.
- Kill or stun bosses ASAP.
- In between waves, all northern players gather crystals in the top and middle areas.
- If walls are lost, reassign 2 players to guard each vulnerable tower (ie. vulnerable to nearby enemy spawns).


If all walls not destructed on the final wave, assign 1 player to green tower (biblas bomb)

my observations:
tank Fi/Hu War cry>Massive Hunter>Chaos Riser>Illusion rave>Chaos Riser
Chaos riser works fine, to move mobs from wall (with full gear, radius and power doubled) it is a little zondeel

Tank Ra/Hu war cry>massive Hunter>stun grenade>spam sattelite canon> this works good too

need 2-3 ppl with war cry 1 in the center, 2 ppl on each side, if wall are destructed, 2 ppl go to south

[Rien]

No one will have stun grenade.

No one.

[milranduil]

lol stun grenade

[FireswordRus]

No one will have stun grenade.

No one.

I have^)

http://www.twitch.tv/fireswordmrm/c/3956214
Vita block

[Kondibon]

With all the bravers you wouldn't need stun grenades, just fudou.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure FireswordRus means stunning them with breaks or status effects though, not actual stuns. ._.

[FireswordRus]

lol, i am realy testing stun grenades right now, it not useless. Not so good, but some times works fine

[schnee4]

only strategy: run BR, not useless melee fo/te

[Shinamori]

How does Il-grants fair against Vibrace in terms of causing panic?

[Chdata]

It does the most hits and has the highest % of probability of causing panic.

[final_attack]

Um ..... I wonder if having both ShowTime and WarCry is nice?

Well, I know I'm gonna lose some damage, the loss damage is on the pict in spoiler box ....

[SPOILER-BOX]
http://puu.sh/7L4sg.jpg
[/SPOILER-BOX]

A trade-off for losing a little bit of damage, in exchange for easier tagging o.o

Since there's most likely a lot of Gu and Br already in TD, this set-up crossed my mind o.o

Oh right, I would like to have only 1 point ShowTime, it's just a left-over tree (obsolete ZRC Build). Should have negligible damage difference with full R-Atk I used now if I got lv 1 ShowTime only (4 point difference in R-Atk stats) :( But that one gonna need to wait until reset pass is available :(

Any opinion about having both ShowTime and WarCry with current skill tree I have (strictly for playing TD only)? Well, losing that damage for more tagging ...... Or should I stick on pure damage?
Thank you :)

[milranduil]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Lv 1 Showtime doesn't actually increase hate (still 1.0 multiplier), so it just increases your gear fill rate. Doesn't really seem worth it though it is 4 r-atk we're talking about. Idk just seems like it's pointless regardless to me.

[final_attack]

Ah yes, the idea is just for the tagging the mobs, so they ignore the walls .... Activating ShowTime is like mini WarCry (less AoE, more cd, guaranteed aggro on activation(?)) o.o Well, I find myself needing to do a WarCry, and it's still on cd .... so, I thought maybe ShowTime can help while WarCry is still on cd o.o

And gonna need input for other player too, if the trade-off is worth it (still got ZRC build) o.o Well, it's mpa, so, hearing others opinion regarding this matter gonna help (like ..... do you prefer Gunner with 300 less damage per hit as shown but got ShowTime to tag ....Or just pure damage) ^^;

[Chdata]

I feel like if you're getting it specifically only for one quest it's not worth it.

[final_attack]

Ah, yes ... I got some tree ^^;

ZRC Tree (left-over from Crafted weapon) ... Normal R-Atk Tree (Current) .... and failed tree ><

Just wanna ask which one is better (can contribute more for higher chance S-rank) to do in TD2 (ZRC or R-Atk) ^^;

Basic Setup (Normal usage) for me ... R-Atk Tree on Gu, and WarCry on Hunter (Still keep dps Fury Tree, just enough WarCry (5 SP)). I don't mind going ZRC + WarCry of course ^^

[Ratazana]

There is a simple method to discover if something is good or not. In the case of gunner with warcry... well just go out there and observe what the good gunners are doing.

If all the good people are doing something, it means it's good. If not, it isn't.

[Remz69]

If all the good people are doing something, it means it's good. If not, it isn't.

nope there's no equivalence there
good people not doing something says nothing about this something being good/bad

[UnLucky]

Ah, yes ... I got some tree ^^;

ZRC Tree (left-over from Crafted weapon) ... Normal R-Atk Tree (Current) .... and failed tree ><

Just wanna ask which one is better (can contribute more for higher chance S-rank) to do in TD2 (ZRC or R-Atk) ^^;

Basic Setup (Normal usage) for me ... R-Atk Tree on Gu, and WarCry on Hunter (Still keep dps Fury Tree, just enough WarCry (5 SP)). I don't mind going ZRC + WarCry of course ^^
Can't really say without seeing the trees you mean... But there's a completely usable Gu/Hu build in The New Build Thread (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218099).

I'd rather keep Step Attack on Hunter's tree. If you want an aggro pull, you can get lv1 Showtime.

[final_attack]

Sorry, just got back from lunch >.<

Ah yes, forgot to link the Skill Tree >_< Both tree using same Hunter Tree (WarCry)

GuHu ZRC (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06egbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkfdt0 IbInqnGKsNIPjJiGA000007b000009b000000lb2QJ24QIpfGA hnrC0000ib000000lb0000000Ib000008) - GuHu R-Atk (http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06egbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkfdt0 IbInqnGKsNIPjJiGA000007b000009b000000lb2XJ2qqInfGA gBbp0000ib000000lb0000000Ib000008)

Well, the damage difference ..... I already posted it before.

And, yes, I know the ZRC Build is bad for my current equipment now, it's leftover tree from Crafted weapon use before. I'll change it to lv 1 ShowTime once all tree reset is available (Should have done lv 1 ShowTime for R-Atk build, but I forgot) >.<

So, the question is, should I throw away that damage for another mob pull ..... or stick to basic R-Atk? Well, trying to keep the mobs away from wall .... especially that Goldrahda and ninjas. Also, wondering which build will contribute better for TD o.o The damage I've done in the screenshot, not using any buff btw.

[Coatl]

There is a simple method to discover if something is good or not. In the case of gunner with warcry... well just go out there and observe what the good gunners are doing.

If all the good people are doing something, it means it's good. If not, it isn't.

I don't really agree with this concept.

I mean, someone should be able to ascertain if something works well or not by themselves. If they can't do that well, then they'll always have problems adjusting to the meta-game. You know what though, you don't need to ascertain. I've ascertained. War cry on Gunner sucks.

[deahamlet]

Must be nice being on an English server... I don't think I've seen any gu/hu with warcry or showtime lolz. And you'd think with all that DPS skill tree stuff they'd kill bosses without me needing to babysit them with WB :P.

Unless you are in a fixed 12-man MPA that you formed, you're not going to be able to use most of these tactics. I chose to look around to see if anyone else is looking in on towers, running around back there... saw two people so I went to WB for the 65s incapable of killing a darn Ragne by themselves... and what do I see next? BOOM LOST TOWER. Oh for...

PUGs be pugs. Most tend to be northern heroes so if you're solo it's best to be the one checking on bomb/infections/assassins. If in a party of 4, have two people roaming (crystal, check on infections, etc) and two up north... less likely for fail.

If a wall falls, is best for party to split 3 way - one north right, one north left (near tower next to broken wall) and one to mid wall on side with broken wall. Less likely to spell disaster.

Sadly I've had runs where only one wall broke but we lost three towers because... stupidity (read: nobody watching for infections and bomb). I need to clone myself or force guildies to wake up for 7am raids hahaha.

PS: Post not meant to whine about PUGs, more like meant to show the reality of running with randoms and what a 1person or 4person group can do to deal with it.

[final_attack]

Ah yes, I currently using WarCry to keep mobs from hitting the walls, since I mostly join random mpa, and not everyone can tag different mobs every time (including me, I can't tag everything). I use WarCry so I can tag everything around (at least on the side I'm in), and other people can help finishing them while the mobs focused on me o.o Um, it's easier to kill less spread out mobs, right?

Well, Rangers is indispensable in TD to kill bosses o.o The dps I showed, is just wondering if lowered damage still good for killing bosses (with help of Rangers in mpa of course).

And I do check the maps and mini-maps quite often (thank you, side mouse buttons). I go by myself if no one is jumping over the wall to destroy the infection / assassins (I tried my best to prevent them from teleporting though). As for bombs, I have to rely on others, since on my screen, I usually only saw Vibras Leg / exposed back due to manual aiming (can't do JA / move unless I play in manual aim).

Wait ..... maybe I should just leave Vibras alone since most people already come for him and looking at the area ..... Didn't cross in my mind before (stupid me) >_>

As for party ..... sometimes I go alone (quite a lot actually), since some things might came up irl (picking / delivering groceries when ordered, phones ..... etc ), so I have to logout after a run if that happens >_<

====== Note =======

Yes, I agree, I never saw a GuHu with WarCry / ShowTime / both before lol I do play as support sometimes in other games, since most games (with stats like PSO2) didn't have dual gun on it XD So, doing things as support is something I'm kinda used to (no dual guns = no dps role in game) XD

Now that I think about it ....... I guess the correct question is .... which one is better for playing with random? WarCry + dps ..... or WarCry + ShowTime + slightly(?) lower dps?

I still need more work with personal skills though ><



Edit : seems viable for random mpa after I tried it myself (can cover lack of Zondeel at least a little) ..... since I only saw 1 or 2 people other than me using WarCry (in 3 runs, not a single zondeel user spotted o.o), but still not so sure about ShowTime. It does help with tagging though .....

[TaigaUC]

Noticed a few things today:
- Haven't seen Goldradas past the wall yet (still don't know what's going on with that).
- Bosses may (or always?) spawn further up if only one side of the wall is down.
- War Cry on Biblas and holding him up north is bad if walls are down (takes a while to run back) unless people stay on defense.
- Mantises that spawn on the right can teleport to the left tower (they will travel diagonally, indicating their target).
- Turret cost: first two unlocked by 1000, cannons unlocked at 5000 and 8000.
- JP group seemed to use my theoretical strategy and it went smoothly.

[Sacrificial]

Upper traps in TD2 aren't as effective anymore as in TD1 against the mantises. that diagonally teleporting makes it hard to predict when to plant. Maybe i can find more speciafic spots when I've played this eq some more. Because if it's successful it will halt an entire mantis wave long enough to kill them just like in TD1.

[deahamlet]

First run had the Biblas too far north issue (and me being the only one concerned with the bomb AND the only WB in party, le sigh). Lost the first tower to the bomb.

Second run I pestered the JP (aka reminded them) about infections and bomb and they were on that.
Went extremely well except in this day and age 12man MPA of nothing but 65 bravers and gunners in 11* weapons (nobody was trolling with no Nyobo this time around) still cannot kill a Dark Agrani without WB. 2 minutes of me clearing 2 towers of mobs and that bastard was still alive. (my mistake for committing to defending tower in JP so couldn't very well leave it with enemies swarming. forgot about Ragne o.O)

It's very important for a WB person to be up north, we managed to have neither Zesh nor Wolgahda break the wall due to being killed in a flash.

So far Zesh seemed to spawn on the left while Wolgahdas spawned on the right. I think Ragne spawned in the middle north. With most walls broken in wave six Biblas spawned in the middle of the map o.O.

There are no forces, I think they're hiding, so panic-ing Biblas doesn't seem to be happening. Debating putting Panic III on my rifle or running my fo/te (but then no WB! man, can't win).

[RollTheDice]

This new TD is goddamn trash.

[gigawuts]

I like it, it's more interesting than zondeel + kanran + shunka + katana combat for 40 minutes.

[UnLucky]

If anything it's more reliant on zondeel+katana for 40 minutes

TD1 if you don't spawn kill, you retreat to the towers and zerg for moderate success

TD2 if you don't spawn kill, you scramble all over the place trying to salvage a failed run

[RyanDanger]

Just so I get this straight, war cry is acceptable and desired in these defense games?
Could I just put a point in and feel good about myself? or am I just trash infecting peoples runs?

[final_attack]

I wanna know too ^^;

Though last time I tried in random mpa, due to lack of zondeel (0 to 1 people total for 3 runs (2 runs, I didn't see any zondeel)), I find WarCry useful ^^;

[gigawuts]

If anything it's more reliant on zondeel+katana for 40 minutes

TD1 if you don't spawn kill, you retreat to the towers and zerg for moderate success

TD2 if you don't spawn kill, you scramble all over the place trying to salvage a failed run

Ah yeah, I forgot people were talking about stuff only spawning up north if the walls aren't broken down. In the two runs I did earlier the walls went down by wave two, so most of my experience in TD2 involved a whole lot of running to catch spread out enemies.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Ah yeah, I forgot people were talking about stuff only spawning up north if the walls aren't broken down. In the two runs I did earlier the walls went down by wave two, so most of my experience in TD2 involved a whole lot of running to catch spread out enemies.

Due to a series of unfortunate events, I have yet to do TD2, but from what everyone is saying, I get the impression it's just telling me to do the same shit I did in TD1; Braver spawn camp with war cry+KC, except now it's probably encouraged by pugs. :-?

[Chdata]

tag things so they don't touch walls

[Chdata]

Wave 3 spawned two infections on the northern two towers.

Wave 4 spawned two infections on the far back two towers.

Wave 6 spawned 3+ infections, one in lower left and upper right, and the far back one.

I think one common MPA problem is when everyone tidal waves to one spot. Sometimes I find myself being the only one to not run way over to the other side as monsters spawn next to me while other people are running towards stuff that's already getting killed by other people.

[TaigaUC]

Going to be adding a few more notes in a sec:
- Both Wolgardas can spawn on the same side of the wall.
- War Cry prevents Ragne from jumping (VERY USEFUL for saving the wall).
- Heel Stab is effective against Wolgarda, especially if he's WB'd.
- All enemies will sometimes run diagonally if a wall is down.
- Infections only spawn in wave 3 and onwards.
- Turret 1 cost seems to be around 500, Turret 2 is 1000.

[UnLucky]

Had some good runs. First two kept the walls until halfway through the final wave, even though Ragne/Vibras jumped on them. Really important to tag mobs before they touch anything.

The only lost time was from an infection taking way too long for the server to realize it wasn't there anymore.

[TaigaUC]

I also had good runs. All of them were roughly 3/4 JP, 1/4 EN.
Everyone seemed very powerful. Lots of AQ 11 stars or something.

The first two groups had a JP WBer calling out specific WB targets, and a War Cry user holding the bosses.
Lost no walls. Didn't seem like they really bothered with crystals (around 2k in final wave?).

Third group, we didn't have a WBer or a War Cry user.
We lost a wall in wave 4, then another in final wave.
Still 91.76%.

Biblas didn't get the bomb out on any wave.
No Zondeel users. I don't think I saw any Forces or Techers, actually.

Got a Nasuyoteri yesterday (or two days ago?), and a Nirenkamui today. On an account I can use it, finally.
More 11 stars from TD than I've had in the past 3-4 weeks.
I'm just using one +250% ticket too.
Although, yesterday I literally only got one 10 star.

Also finally got my first Tsukuyomi, after all those months farming it from Caterdransa and never seeing it drop.
Yay for TD drops, almost two years later. Shame it's useless now.

[final_attack]

Got 3 runs today :D It feels good to have WarCry now for random, almost no coordination sighted in mpa except for wb (no Zondeel again in 3 runs. Not a single Tech user on sight. Didn't remember saw any WarCry too. At least 1 people with WB in every run though ^^; ). I stationed myself at right side, since at the start, some already stays at left, and only 1 people on the right.

1st run (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCAlTJ4y8jI) (S-Rank) - Wall loss : 0 - ended @ 12 - 13
Everyone seems too strong XD 2 - 3 people stays on mid line to protect from infections and ninjas. Coordinated WB @ mid too. And it seems everyone is Gu or Br (1 or 2 use Ra as sub). I didn't do much in this mpa ><

2nd run (A-Rank) - Wall loss : 0 - ended @ 26 - 27
Infection :< I can't really leave my post. Too scared to let a wall breaks :< I should improve more :<

3rd run (S-Rank) - Wall loss : 2 (both on left) - ended @ 40 - 41 I guess.
I forgot when the wall is destroyed, but I think it's al Wolgahda. We still got S-Rank :D


Edit : uploaded my 1st run with a nice random mpa (pretty nice for me) ^^;

[deahamlet]

Pretty bad runs today, but basically first time seeing forces/techers and a whole bunch of 56s. Sadly tech users were too addicted to the new techs to ever use zondeel.

Also forever alone solo WB... forever!

First run we lost walls in first wave, lolz.

That's what I get for being in troll blocks.

[Alma]

got 3x run
2 on which a normal good run
(consist mostly BR, GU and a few RA and TE)

and the other 1...well lets say 1 lightning zonde happy FO crash the territory party held by 2 TE on each side (that schmuck travel left and right zonde ing anything)

its still finish in rank S thou :D

[UnLucky]

The real pro PUG strat for anti-anti-Zondeel technology: Chaos Riser

No amount of trolling can ruin your suction effect.

And you won't have garbage-tier DPS, neither

[Zipzo]

The secret to x3 runs of anything : Weak Bullet.

[UnLucky]

Until every class in the MPA is Ranger and they're all desperately spamming Satellite Cannon on WB'd trash.

Actually I imagine that'd go pretty well.

[Ratazana]

As many people already pointed out, in TD1 you could always fall back to the towers. Even if you were the only carrier, all the combined dps no matter how inadequate was concentrated in few spots.

In TD2 hell breaks lose as soon as the walls go down. You get people running all around the place, towers exploding, runs taking forever.

The focus should be in kill spawning the trash and dps bursting bosses before they can destroy the walls.

Being the only WB'er isn't bad at all. It's not like you can stack wb on bosses. No WB at all sucks though.

[btw-Niji]

The secret to x3 runs of anything : Weak Bullet.
Nope, can very easily get 3 runs without WB.

The secret to x3 runs of anything : stop playing bad.

[UnLucky]

The secret to faster runs:

For every tech user, replace with Braver :wacko:

[Zipzo]

Nope, can very easily get 3 runs without WB.

The secret to x3 runs of anything : stop playing bad.

Yeah if inly everyone were just a PSO2 professional right.

To imply WB doesn't carry folks in to 3rd runs all the time is silly.

[TaigaUC]

Arguments about WB are silly.
The fact is WB multiplies damage by a shit-ton. Obviously, that makes things much faster, regardless of scenario.
It's equivalent to having imba classes, good players, or uber gear. Stack WB on top of those, and it's even better.

It all boils down to this:
Is WB necessary? No.
Is WB useful? Hell, yes.

The only problem that comes to my mind is if everyone gets WB and then keep overwriting each other with badly-aimed shots.
Well, the other problem is that previously, a WBer would take up a slot for a potentially powerful player. As long as they used WB effectively, itd be fine.
However, now that rifle PAs are much stronger, even a crappy WBer may prove useful. Unless they're just really crappy in general.
But a good WBer with crap gear is still more useful than a crap player in any context.

[Ratazana]

Arguments about WB are silly.
The fact is WB multiplies damage by a shit-ton. Obviously, that makes things much faster, regardless of scenario.
It's equivalent to having imba classes, good players, or uber gear. Stack WB on top of those, and it's even better.

It all boils down to this:
Is WB necessary? No.
Is WB useful? Hell, yes.

The only problem that comes to my mind is if everyone gets WB and then keep overwriting each other with badly-aimed shots.
Well, the other problem is that previously, a WBer would take up a slot for a potentially powerful player. As long as they used WB effectively, itd be fine.
However, now that rifle PAs are much stronger, even a crappy WBer may prove useful. Unless they're just really crappy in general.
But a good WBer with crap gear is still more useful than a crap player in any context.

I agree WB is awesome but a crappy WB'er might mess with others wb in bosses. It's not as idiotproof as braver.

[Remz69]

played Fi today in TD2 .... never again

Sega finally managed to put out content that combined with the current 'balance' of the game make me feel locked out of my favorite class ... ... ...

tip: don't bring a Fi into TD2

[TaigaUC]

I also feel that Shift Period is not as useful in TD2. I end up using Heel Stab most of the time instead.
There's just a wider distance for enemies to run around in front of the walls, instead of how they directly converge and cluster around towers in TD1.

For that reason I'd imagine Fi is not very useful in TD2. No more wait-at-tower-and-Bloody-Sarabande.
I guess you could still wait at the wall and take out the leftovers.

[Celille]

So has anyone ever gotten an S rank yet?

[RollTheDice]

So has anyone ever gotten an S rank yet?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/GrayWolf323/Miscellaneous/NotSureIfSerious.jpg

[UnLucky]

played Fi today in TD2 .... never again

Sega finally managed to put out content that combined with the current 'balance' of the game make me feel locked out of my favorite class ... ... ...

tip: don't bring a Fi into TD2

Chaos Riser the groups, Backhand Smash the bosses, Deadly Archer the infections.

Knuckle/Dagger dash for crystals.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Anyone reconsidering their weapon element of choice because of TD2 by chance?

[UnLucky]

Light....?

[gigawuts]

Can confirm, 50 light GMs are still good

[btw-Niji]

Anyone reconsidering their weapon element of choice because of TD2 by chance?
lol no.

Although I will pick up a Zeshu for TD1 and TD2 once I get some other (more) important equips out of the way.

[gigawuts]

I'm definitely noticing the utility of panic in pugs, since it'll force cyclos to whack eachother instead of the wall.

[Shinamori]

So, do the same 10*s that drops in defense drops here?

[Rakurai]

The drops from the crystal at the end are different.

They're still just excube fodder, though.

[TaigaUC]

So, do the same 10*s that drops in defense drops here?

I listed some of them in the opening post.
JP swiki lists all of them.

[Shinamori]

Hmm, do you think doing something like this is wise?

/a ウォークライ → ダーク・ラグネ (War Cry → Dark Ragne)

[milranduil]

Fun fact: instead of wasting time using War Cry on Ragne, you can just Hatou his face and you'll have aggro.

[TaigaUC]

Hmm, do you think doing something like this is wise?
/a ウォークライ → ダーク・ラグネ (War Cry → Dark Ragne)

You want to tell JP people you're going to War Cry Ragne?
Your message could be interpreted as "someone use War Cry on Ragne".
If that's what you intended, that'd be kinda pointless because people who have it would probably be using it anyway.

If you just wanted to tell them you're going to use it, you could say "ウォークライ使います".
If it's the boss waves and you let them know you're going to use it, it'll be kinda obvious what you're going to use it on.

In the runs I was in, a JP WBer announced WB targets, but the War Cry user didn't say anything.
They just grabbed the bosses. I guess letting people know ahead of time helps with positioning.


Fun fact: instead of wasting time using War Cry on Ragne, you can just Hatou his face and you'll have aggro.
Does it prevent Ragne from jumping?

[UnLucky]

If you grab aggro immediately when he spawns, he won't jump. That's true for anything, War Cry included. But do it too late and he'll jump regardless.

I used to just Infinite Fire during the spawning animation so the timing wouldn't be as strict.

[milranduil]

Does it prevent Ragne from jumping?

As Unlucky said, as long as you do it immediately when he lands, he'll stay put.

[qoxolg]

The secret to faster runs:

For every tech user, replace with Braver :wacko:

Techer is mostly useless in TD2, especially when the walls break it becomes hard to zondeel in the right places and spawns are small and devided.

It's a miracle how we got a third run yesterday with the second run being 10/12 with multiple casters :wacko:

It's a good thing I've finally grinded and unlocked my GM, so I can decently do TD's with my GU/HU

[TaigaUC]

Ugh. A weak mostly JP group and then a weak mostly EN group.
They both lost the walls around wave 4. They both had WB and seemingly strong attackers, too.

But mantises were constantly slipping by everyone. Not sure what the problem was.
The first group had at least one caster. I doubt that was the sole reason for the entire run sucking though.
At least we got the bomb both times.

Anyway, that's the last time I join an earlier block to wait for TD.
Always ends badly.

[final_attack]

Another S - A - S rank, very nice.

Also, positioned in front-mid once (too late going into front line due to gathering crystals on far back) .... and I find WarCry become much harder. Mobs slipping right and left (ShowTime isn't worth it either once I'm positioned mid :< ). I'll make sure I'm on side line next time (mid ..... too hardcore for me) ><

[TaigaUC]

As Unlucky said, as long as you do it immediately when he lands, he'll stay put.

Hmm. Okay.
I used to use Hatou Rindou in TD1 as Ragne came down from the jump, and I don't recall ever being able to pull aggro.
Well, never mind. I updated the main post with that info.

[schnee4]

Techer is mostly useless in TD2, especially when the walls break it becomes hard to zondeel in the right places and spawns are small and devided.

It's a miracle how we got a third run yesterday with the second run being 10/12 with multiple casters :wacko:

It's a good thing I've finally grinded and unlocked my GM, so I can decently do TD's with my GU/HU

techer is mostly useless in EVERYWHERE, especially when they are melee fote and brains are small and devided

[UnLucky]

It's a good thing I've finally grinded and unlocked my GM, so I can decently do TD's with my GU/HU
Honestly, Guld Milla isn't really that effective in TD2 either. I'm always using IF/ER/HS and rarely getting hit except for the occasional blindside stun from the new annoyance.

Hopefully lots of people go for the Bio Mechs (cyborgs?) or have other TMGs effective at long range.

[final_attack]

Actually, sometimes, I found ZRA tmg not being used to it's full potential (if no one got WarCry or any Zondeel support, so I can close in and use it's potential). Definitely going for Bio Mech or maybe other long range tmg that might be available from SH AQ(?).

But for now, it did enough damage to tag enemies, which is still very nice.

Btw, any tips if positioned FrontLine-Mid? Do none of the normal enemies run straight to wall (mid part) or only a few? If they just run to left and right part, I guess I can stay on side lines, and move in to mid once a boss spawned?

Just in case no spot left on side lines.

Thank you.

[UnLucky]

Enemies can cross through the middle to attack the other side, but there's not really much need to defend there.

Count the number of people on each side and defend the weaker one. If all 12 of the MPA is up north, consider collecting crystals in the other part of the map and be ready to clear infections/Dicahdas. It's best to spread out a bit so that you can all tag/kill mobs as they spawn so neither the walls nor the towers take any damage.

[final_attack]

Oh, I see, then it's ok to be on side lines. Will remember that when I do TD again.

Thank you for the advice.

[Sacrificial]

My roll as Ra is pretty solid in TD2

Wave1: collect crystals mid

Wave2:Camp a mid tower with a SC preloaded and aimed at the triangle in front of the tower. Goodbye ninja's. Kill the spawning infection.
Then either hunt remaining mobs or collect crystals again.

Wave3: run north in frotn of zesh spawn. WB knee. Flip. WB core. Kil.
Run back to my mid tower and repeat what i did wave2.

Wave4:wb wolga's and SC them. fall back to last towers.

Wave5:Ragne spawns and breaks the walls <.< hell gets lose. i just focus on ragne. And then camp the remaining fall. Since at that point it gets ignored a lot.


When a wall breaks earlier around wave 3 i camp the last set of towers because ninja's will go there in that case.

[TaigaUC]

Got into a so-so group that spent too much time collecting crystals, then a great group and then a pretty decent group.
Mostly JP players across the board. Yay for joining a late block on purpose.

Tried to tag Ragne with Heel Stab on spawn, didn't seem to work.
Well, the first time Ragne jumped but only half the distance to the wall.
It looked like someone may have used War Cry.
Second time, Ragne jumped and destroyed the wall.

I noticed that Wolgardas sometime spawn immediately, and sometimes they spawn after a delay.

I also seem to be getting a lot less 10 stars than TD1, maybe 2-3 out of three runs, even with 250% rare drop.
Anyone else feel that TD2 gives less 10 stars?

[final_attack]

Well, 50% rdr used, got 3-4 *10 from 3 runs ...... I guess rng is still rng ....

Oh, and I also noticed more people who got WarCry now (joined at block 19 I think), which is very nice ...... 4 people (including me) in a run at least twice (I don't remember seeing WarCry on 2nd run, but I might forget).

3 runs, all S-Rank, 2nd run the wall destroyed by Vibras I think.

Edit : I remember seeing 1 more people with WarCry on 2nd run.

Edit 2 : looking back at previous runs ..... yeah, I think I got less *10 in TD2

[UnLucky]

http://i.imgur.com/zTS8vR2.png

[TaigaUC]

I usually get around 6-12 10 stars in 3 runs of TD1, so yeah...
The most I've gotten in TD2 so far is probably 4 or something stupid.

I noticed a few more things today:
- Some enemies can spawn right in the middle of center area (not even near the top or wall). Literally had a Kyukuronada spawn right on top of me when I was standing in center north.
- Tagging Ragne DOES work but the timing is kinda tight (I had to lock and hit Ragne's core with the Heel Stab spray as he came down)
- When walls are down, enemies seem to pick random targets. I've seen enemies spawn on the mid-left and then run all the way around to the lower-right side wall.

[UnLucky]

Oh yeah, what I just noticed in my last run:

Viblas can target other towers with his bomb(s).

I destroyed the one at Orange since we already lost Green to a bomb.

Yes, he threw two bombs that run.

The final wave timed out and we just barely killed Vibras.

With WB

[TaigaUC]

Biblas throwing two bombs?
Seriously? That must be rare as hell.

My experience today:
Intentionally joined a late block. But, it's that time of the day, so...
Block was filled with EN people spamming and trying to turn the block into b20.
Not a good sign. Fortunately, we didn't end up with those groups (praise the Sun).

Instead, we got into a group of half EN, half JP players.
Including my friend and I, we had 3 Rangers, 3 Forces, 4 Gunners and only 2 Bravers.
Almost nobody bothered exiting the campship until after wave 1 started.
No Zondeel, as far as I recall. Just Il Grants, Foie, crap like that.
We lost both walls, a tower down south, and the 2 front towers at 5% by wave 3.
No joke. They'd gathered around 2k crystals by wave 4.
Total tower health was around 30% when we quit in wave 5.
I know a group is bad if I consistently pull first in rankings.

Second run, I immediately see a JP Force detonating their own Zondeel repeatedly.
I know they were JP because I checked their ARKS card. Looked like they listed having around 4 level 65 characters.
Even when a pack of enemies pounded on the wall, that Force would cast Zondeel and then detonate it, letting the enemies continue to pound on the wall.
Needless to say, we lost that wall.
Anyway, despite having 11 players, we still ended up with 86.7%.
4 Bravers, 2 Gunners, 1 Hunter, 1 Ranger, 1 Force and a Fighter. Don't know what the last class was.
That group was much, much more effective than the first group.

Third run, we had a bunch of Bravers and I couldn't keep up at all, ie. very strong group.
It was uber cake. Didn't lose any walls.

In the first two runs, someone kept using WB on Zeshirayda's head when he was standing, and legs when he was in shell mode.
Methinks Satellite Cannon has ushered a new age of Rangers who don't know how to WB.

[UnLucky]

It's actually a really fast kill if you WB his head and then his central body when he turtles up.

[TaigaUC]

It's actually a really fast kill if you WB his head and then his central body when he turtles up.

Well, he just took off and we spent most of the wave chasing him down.
I like it when he gets flipped immediately and dies without moving from spawn point.

I'm sure WB his head works when everyone focuses on it.
The WBers were really inconsistent though.

Oh yeah... and on my second run we had 4 simultaneous infections on wave 3.
That's kinda BS.

[Chdata]

Key Points for Victory:
- Walls must not break. All enemies should be immediately tagged (and killed) to prevent them from attacking the walls.
- Bosses must be killed or incapacitated immediately. Tag with War Cry or big damage on spawn for best results (thx Unlucky, adios, and everyone else who uses War Cry).
- Mantises must not teleport, and if they do, they need to be killed immediately.
- Infections must be destroyed ASAP.
- If Biblas manages to get a bomb out, either kill him quickly, have someone waiting at green, or immediately use the side teleporters to get to green and destroy it.

Additionally: Pay attention to what other people are doing.

Don't jump back to handle infections, when 5 other people already are. If you're one of the first, then you're probably fine. Hopefully other people won't follow you.

If you see everyone run to the left side of the map, while it's still expected for stuff to spawn on the right after those die, be the one guy who stays on the right and spawn kills everything there while everyone else is running back to that side (which would usually allow mobs to get some hits on the wall).

[SociableTyrannosaur]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/zTS8vR2.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

...Wat?

....WAT?

I just....what?

...Yay bow I guess?

[Aine]

less bitchin' about pubs, more actual strategy discussion plz

Some thoughts for people aiming for 4 runs in a private MPA:

- If you're on pace for 4 runs, you will simply not reach 2000 points before the end of quest, so don't bother picking up crystals. Don't let them distract you.

- One party takes care of each side. The third party takes care of spawns in the center (early waves) and bosses. Once the bosses are dead the center party can retreat and take care of infections.

- Zesh dies on the spot from Hatou to the shin and Shunka to the core. Wolgas die to Shunka to the face. Ragne can be stopped, but it may be better to let him jump since he always lands in the same place, you can prepare for it and take him out together with the mobs. The center party should be able to handle these bosses by themselves, while the outer parties take care of mobs.

- Biblas can be killed on the spot the same way as in TD1 (Hatou to the leg, Hatou to the abdomen), but unlike TD1 where you can gather everyone to kill Biblas and get back to the towers in time for the mobs, you'll need to have about two people on either side to take care of the spawns. Even with only eight people you should still be able to kill Biblas in one down, if you have enough Bravers.

- Memorizing spawns is the key to faster times. There's no way about this one, in TD1 you could still get 4 runs spawn camping even if you didn't have every single pattern memorized. Even though TD2 is simpler, you are more pressed for time so there's no leeway for mistakes. You need to be there when the mobs spawn and pull aggro instantly with Kanran. If you ever need to use War Cry, that means you (or someone else on your side) fucked up.

- We've tried Br11Ra1 and Br9Fo2Ra1, both were about the same. Force is there to pull aggro instantly from spawns with Gi Foie, rather than Zondeel.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

- We've tried Br11Ra1 and Br9Fo2Ra1, both were about the same. Force is there to pull aggro instantly from spawns with Gi Foie, rather than Zondeel.

FO op.

[Lostbob117]

Something you might want to add somewhere, the PA Chaos Riser will be good to use to keep mobs away from the wall if you use Double Sabers. Theoretically. I think it works like that zonde move.

[FireswordRus]

http://www.twitch.tv/fireswordmrm/c/3985651
Example, Fail

[TaigaUC]

I've been seeing some people say that.
I haven't even checked what Chaos Riser does.
I never use my fighters anymore.

I'll add it anyway.

[Lostbob117]

I've been seeing some people say that.
I haven't even checked what Chaos Riser does.
I never use my fighters anymore.

I'll add it anyway.

It damages and brings enemies to you.

[gigawuts]

I've been seeing some people say that.
I haven't even checked what Chaos Riser does.
I never use my fighters anymore.

I'll add it anyway.

I'm told it does several things

1. It gives you a zondeel-like suction effect
2. It deals damage
3. It gets bigger with more gear, consuming each full bar you have just like normal doublesaber gear.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It damages and brings enemies to you.

Thought it was common knowledge for people who frequent these forums by now.

I mean at least 90% of people who are here go to bumped and must'ave seen, and discussed what it can do from the trailer weeks ago.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

3. It gets bigger with more gear, consuming each full bar you have just like normal doublesaber gear.

Consumes gear for damage, and range increase.

If you ask me, it should keep those effects depending on how much gear you had when used, but it shouldn't consume gear (unnecessary opportunity cost to a weapon that's not even as strong anymore).

Also, it generates gear from the hit after gear is consumed on use.

Haven't tried it against a bulky enemy that can't be knocked airborne (such as goldras, or the crotchplate warriors), but the suction effect might not be a lingering-type like zondeel, other spin, or sazan, as in any enemy wondering into range during the animation, but after the initial use will not be drawn to you.

[Kikikiki]

I swear this is the first time that I've seen a RA who doesn't want to WB a boss and run around with Satellite Cannon and Diffuse Shell instead. I had to give him a scolding. He went to WB the boss on the first run and the second run, but strayed back to his original routine in third run, at which point I don't really give a shit anymore.

The run went fine but two walls got destroyed and we were saved because enemies weren't being dicks.

P/s: not ship 2 but still.

[TaigaUC]

Updated the main post with this:

Class-based Strategic Positioning Image: (from MMOLoda)
[spoiler-box]http://mmoloda.com/pso2/image/29630.jpg[/spoiler-box]
2-3 Gu, Br on the left and on the right - Stay in these areas and kill everything in sight, tag enemies to protect wall
3-5 Fo, Te, Ra in the center - Support the left and right. If there are too many Br or Gu, they can be part of this group and adapt to the situation as necessary.
1 Hu, Fi at each tower behind the wall, and 1 waiting at the jump pad in front of green - Protect from mantises, infections and the bomb, collect crystals, etc.

[gigawuts]

Cool, now I just need 11 friends.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

Cool, now I just need 11 friends.

Man if only it were that easy.

I need 11 friends who are COMPETENT.

[gigawuts]

Oh, I meant competent ones. I have plenty of incompetent friends. On that note, I have plenty of competent friends too.

Actually I probably could fill up an MPA with the competent friends I have, it's just they'd all have to be online and not running with other people so no I couldn't.

[SociableTyrannosaur]

yeah...just reminds me I really need to consider the migration to Ship 2

[TaigaUC]

Well, you can hope some people assign themselves based on the positioning and class.

Anyway, two bad runs here. Half EN, half JP. Rank scores 57% and 45%.
First run, there was a guy waiting for the bomb, but for some reason he used the jump pad instead of attacking it. I had to kill it alone.
Second run, everyone ignored the bomb, I was the only one on it, but I got there too late.
Don't think we had any WBers, Zondeel users or War Cry. Bosses ran amok, mantises humped towers, etc. It was a mess.

But I got way more 10 stars today than I got all week, so that's nice.

[UnLucky]

Sweet 9% B Rank where I'm the only one taking out infections, running across the map to a once pristine tower, losing it in the next mob spawn.

Not sure how I got over 800 points one wave as Gu/Hu, but yeah that happened.

Four 10*s over two runs. That's more than I usually get with three S-Ranks.

[TaigaUC]

It's probably the amazing +50% rare drop boost shining through.

I've been thinking it's probably more beneficial to leave first groups that are performing badly.
That way, there's a high chance of getting into a powerful early-finishing group on their second run.

Problem is, if everyone starts doing that, the shit players would replace all the good players.
Also means missing out on a run. There's always the possibility of getting into three runs even with a shit group.
And well, leaving is a dick move. But I dunno if we should feel badly about that if the group is playing like shit.


Thought it was common knowledge for people who frequent these forums by now.

I mean at least 90% of people who are here go to bumped and must'ave seen, and discussed what it can do from the trailer weeks ago.

I guess it just flew over my head. Kinda just tune out anything Fighter-related now.
Not pleased with my Fighter characters.

[Shinamori]

3rd pretty good runs. Our first run was iffy, but the 2nd and 3rd was pretty nice. Lost a wall at wave five, yet no one panic and kept their cool. People remember we still have burst barriers.

[TaigaUC]

Losing a wall at wave 5 is still decent.

I keep ending up in groups that lose the wall in wave 3 or the start of 4.
Those usually turn out terrible.

[nathanielzor]

http://i58.tinypic.com/a10i1h.png

All in all runs went pretty well. Lost walls Wave 5 or 6, but we were lacking a Weak Bullet so nothing of any concern. Still no Kongou. ):

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Updated the main post with this:

Class-based Strategic Positioning Image: (from MMOLoda)
[spoiler-box]http://mmoloda.com/pso2/image/29630.jpg[/spoiler-box]
2-3 Gu, Br on the left and on the right - Stay in these areas and kill everything in sight, tag enemies to protect wall
3-5 Fo, Te, Ra in the center - Support the left and right. If there are too many Br or Gu, they can be part of this group and adapt to the situation as necessary.
1 Hu, Fi at each tower behind the wall, and 1 waiting at the jump pad in front of green - Protect from mantises, infections and the bomb, collect crystals, etc.

All I got from that is HU and FI belong at the back of the bus.

[TaigaUC]

Yeah, but it seems like a lot of random groups have positioning problems in general.
Not expecting them to even see this thread though.

[Chdata]

I think English players would be less bad if we were the predominate members of the community (it were an english server) and thus there was a lot more than just 3-6 users who actually post strategies and useful information for others to learn from.

[Kondibon]

I think English players would be less bad if we were the predominate members of the community (it were an english server) and thus there was a lot more than just 3-6 users who actually post strategies and useful information for others to learn from.
This. Not to mention how split the community is.

[UnLucky]

4 10*s without a booster for three runs, hm. Half of them were from the crappy A Rank first run that just barely ended at :15.

And I don't remember, did TD1 have boxed trash rares? Cause I just untekked a Cless Digger (from the Wolga, I assume)

Also noticed that using a Burst Barrier to clear an infection doesn't really make the round end any faster. Well, it lets you destroy them before they appear, but the game still picks its nose for a while afterwards.

[Shinamori]

This just came to mind, but if we're so concerned about bad runs, why not try to organize a MPA? I mean, we know when the scheduled events are, so it's really about making time to do it. I know a lot of us are probably in teams, some big, some small. I just it was a interesting idea.

[Zipzo]

This just came to mind, but if we're so concerned about bad runs, why not try to organize a MPA? I mean, we know when the scheduled events are, so it's really about making time to do it. I know a lot of us are probably in teams, some big, some small. I just it was a interesting idea.

It's way more fun to just complain all the time about all the "parasites" in your random MPA. What would PSOW or your team chat be without that.

[UnLucky]

Yeah, we should all plan on getting together for the EQ so when we get bad runs we can yell at each other instead the clouds

[Zipzo]

I just wanted personally add in something...

It can be extremely infuriating how disruptive igniting Zondeel can be. It may not be to your liking to have any kind of caster in your TD, but ultimate Zondeel can be a great tool that helps said caster carry their weight, not just from the perspective of their own damage, but it's possible to easily reach wave 5 and final with pristine walls with a well learned Zondeel user, it forces pretty efficient killing as long as the user is intelligent with placement.

In short, if you're a caster, don't use lightning spells. Please.

[Ratazana]

That's why you shouldn't bring a class that can do nothing but zondeal (melee te) to TD pug. One zondiot is enough to shut you down.

[UnLucky]

Well hopefully there isn't anyone who could possibly ignite it in the first place

If there is, just stay on the opposite side

If there's more than one other caster, restart the quest

[Ratazana]

You could organize a group so you wouldn't have to worry about people detonating your zondeals.

Still, it's way more fun to just complain all the time about all the "lightning forces" in your random MPA. What would PSOW or your team chat be without that.

[Shinamori]

First 2 runs was awesome, 3rd run, everything went to shit.

[gigawuts]

I've always felt that shocking an enemy should detonate sazonde.

Logic follows that it should then also detonate zondeel.

[Skyly]

I think English players would be less bad if we were the predominate members of the community (it were an english server) and thus there was a lot more than just 3-6 users who actually post strategies and useful information for others to learn from.

100% agree. Just to get a consensus.. What blocks are you guys in when doing MBD:I? I've only S ranked this quest 1x out of all the times I've played it and it was on B10. Everyone says stay away from B20 but even on B11-14 I still end up with crappy groups. And another thing, I've been in groups where the walls stay up till about the 5th wave and everything is going good but when the walls break we only have around 1800 crystal points. So frustrating to see bases fall because of not using the barrier or healing. Anyone else run into this?

[Shinamori]

Every run when the wall breaks. However, I think the main issue, at least from what I've seen is that people bring there underlevel classes in SH TD. Personally, lv60 should be the minimum for that quests.

[~Aya~]

so, how do you all like your FO's mineral collecting behind walls while the walls are being smashed and destroyed so they can claim the mineral title at the end? I know I do. Carrying is fun. Discuss.

[Rien]

I saw a guy spamming Barta. He was extremely effective in protecting the wall and took first every round (save the last)

[Inazuma]

I saw a guy spamming Barta. He was extremely effective in protecting the wall and took first every round (save the last)

Was he freezing every time? That might be a good strategy.

[btw-Niji]

Sazan 16 would be better, anyway.

[Sandmind]

Even if he didn't freeze everytime, a quick spam of uncharged barta with -PP recipe used to the trick to help side tower in TD1 back when I used to run it as FOTE and I was defending mid (I still haven't tried TD2 to be honest). Sound like a good backup plan at the worst.

[IndigoNovember]

And I don't remember, did TD1 have boxed trash rares? Cause I just untekked a Cless Digger (from the Wolga, I assume)

Yes it did. Every boxed Twin Dagger from TD1 is just レグザガ from プレディカーダ for example. Boxed Twin Machine Guns had a chance of being サークウェイド from ダーク・ラグネ etc.

[Sanguine2009]

yeah, its only the 11* that cant be boxed

[Rien]

Was he freezing every time? That might be a good strategy.

approximately 70% of the time. The other 30% was because the mob died and/or I didn't see. He was hitting for about ~10k per cast I think.

Fo/Fi can easily stack 100% freeze rate anyhow.

edit: For Barta only. Other spells have too low freeze rate

[gigawuts]

You know, I might just give that build a try. I'll probably wait for the new crafting recipes though.

[Zipzo]

That's why you shouldn't bring a class that can do nothing but zondeal (melee te) to TD pug. One zondiot is enough to shut you down.

Right...you're just wrong.

Before you even begin to believe you even have the authority to declare what is right and wrong for an MPA you need logical reasoning (at the least) and at best factual evidence to support what you're saying. Otherwise you're just being a trolling idiot (like as per usual with you). You have zero statistical evidence, zero evidence rooted in actual logic as opposed to simply acting like an asshole, zero visual representations in the forms of charts, graphs, or pictures. Not even anyone to fucking verbally corroborate your idiocy (infact most would plainly disagree). It's all your own (retarded) bias, that is anyone's guess to how you even bothered to think up such ridiculous ideas.

I'd actually assert that having at the very least two classes viable for zondeeling is perfect, because you get one for both sides/walls, and I'd even begin to assert that a melee techer is even well suited for that particular role because a melee techer's ability to dispatch a freshly zondeeled group despite the large amounts of health is astoundingly suited.

I only need at most, one single braver in my immediate area for clean-up or kill support, and maybe one single other gunner or braver to cover the actual wall for leaks, and I can destroy waves of enemies before they even reach the wall (in later waves where it's actually difficult to consistently do so). That's 3 people covering one wall which is less than what usually happens even when you have full groups of Gunners and Bravers rushing to zerg 12 man the little spawns on one single individual side. After only a hit or two of Wand Gear on a giant zerg I've ensured that an attack from Braver or Gunner will dispatch the enemies easily, no matter which variety of enemy is caught up in Zondeel.

I've also seen freezy casters perform quite well in protecting the walls. Rangers have Weak bullet.

The only classes I find to have limited purpose in TD is Hunter or Fighter (no particular strength VS the other melee class, Braver). Aside from those two, every class has niche that they can take advantage of in order to not only have successful runs, but legitimately pull their weight, and this still doesn't mean Hunters and Fighters are incapable of 3 runs per EQ.

Your shit is tiresome, Ratanza, and your attitude more so.

[Ratazana]

Right...you're just wrong.

Before you even begin to believe you even have the authority to declare what is right and wrong for an MPA you need logical reasoning (at the least) and at best factual evidence to support what you're saying. Otherwise you're just being a trolling idiot (like as per usual with you). You have zero statistical evidence, zero evidence rooted in actual logic as opposed to simply acting like an asshole, zero visual representations in the forms of charts, graphs, or pictures. Not even anyone to fucking verbally corroborate your idiocy (infact most would plainly disagree). It's all your own (retarded) bias, that is anyone's guess to how you even bothered to think up such ridiculous ideas.

I'd actually assert that having at the very least two classes viable for zondeeling is perfect, because you get one for both sides/walls, and I'd even begin to assert that a melee techer is even well suited for that particular role because a melee techer's ability to dispatch a freshly zondeeled group despite the large amounts of health is astoundingly suited.

I only need at most, one single braver in my immediate area for clean-up or kill support, and maybe one single other gunner or braver to cover the actual wall for leaks, and I can destroy waves of enemies before they even reach the wall (in later waves where it's actually difficult to consistently do so). That's 3 people covering one wall which is less than what usually happens even when you have full groups of Gunners and Bravers rushing to zerg 12 man the little spawns on one single individual side. After only a hit or two of Wand Gear on a giant zerg I've ensured that an attack from Braver or Gunner will dispatch the enemies easily, no matter which variety of enemy is caught up in Zondeel.

I've also seen freezy casters perform quite well in protecting the walls. Rangers have Weak bullet.

The only classes I find to have limited purpose in TD is Hunter or Fighter (no particular strength VS the other melee class, Braver). Aside from those two, every class has niche that they can take advantage of in order to not only have successful runs, but legitimately pull their weight, and this still doesn't mean Hunters and Fighters are incapable of 3 runs per EQ.

Your shit is tiresome, Ratanza, and your attitude more so.

To understand what I said you need:

1. Common sense.
2. Knowledge of the game mechanics.
3. Understand the reality of PUGs (carrier/parasite relation).
4. Willingness to be a team player.

You obviously lack one or more of the above and pretty much everyone (except scrublords) can see it. Keep scrubing Zitzo.

[Zipzo]

To understand what I said you need:

1. Common sense.
2. Knowledge of the game mechanics.
3. Understand the reality of PUGs (carrier/parasite relation).
4. Willingness to be a team player.

You obviously lack one or more of the above and pretty much everyone (except scrublords) can see it. Keep scrubing Zitzo.

Lol, sure buddy. Stay small. Just another deflection. You stick to your sub-human natured attitude which is likely a magnet for poor performance all around no matter what mission you're playing...

You not only lack the 4 elements (that you made up because posts of your elementary grade school level require literally nothing to interpret), but you speak & act in contradiction (and probably play).

I'll stick to my small groups with friends, where we always tend to help our MPA's perform well no matter what classes are present. Good lord I would hate to be in a mission with you, I'm sure it would spell disaster for the run.

[Sanguine2009]

im not sure if ratazana is trolling or if he honestly believes the stuff he says sometimes...

[UnLucky]

Yes it did. Every boxed Twin Dagger from TD1 is just レグザガ from プレディカーダ for example. Boxed Twin Machine Guns had a chance of being サークウェイド from ダーク・ラグネ etc.
Well obviously the boss crystals can have trash in a box, but I meant the end crystal. If Guano and mobs can drop 7-9*s untekked then yeah that's what I wanted to know, thanks. I just see so many 10*s from TD1 at the tekker NPC that it seems especially cruel not to get any from TD2.

[SakoHaruo]

I've failed this quest on every VH attempt. Now I don't even sign in to level my alt during a mining eq.

[Z-0]

You guys talk about Ratazana like he's wrong.

Open your eyes a bit.

[Zipzo]

You guys talk about Ratazana like he's wrong.

Open your eyes a bit.

Because he is? This isn't some kind of bleeding heart dictation over trying to submit to people playing the game for fun at the sacrifice of performance, he's wrong on all counts.

Zondeel can easily be a boon to TD. I think you're the one who needs to get off the kool-aid...

[UnLucky]

Because he is? This isn't some kind of bleeding heart dictation over trying to submit to people playing the game for fun at the sacrifice of performance, he's wrong on all counts.

Zondeel can easily be a boon to TD. I think you're the one who needs to get off the kool-aid...
In controlled amounts.

But pugging it with Zondeel is still a bad idea.

[Kayarine]

Zondeel can easily be a boon to TD. I think you're the one who needs to get off the kool-aid...

It's true that Zondeel can be useful, and that Fo is useful in TD. But too many Forces and suddenly the MP's DPS will be bad, and more than one Zondeel on each side is redundant. The problem with public MPAs is that the party composition is random, and player quality is not ensured. You can't guarantee that there won't be that one guy using Zonde/Nazonde on all of your Zondeels, on both sides. Or that everyone else won't be Forces/Fighters/HuFis.

I think the point is that while most classes can contribute to TD in a way or another, some of them can easily be foiled by a random MP's composition - too many Forces or Techers is bad, too many Fighters is bad, too many crystal gods is bad (lol MPs that collect over 5k points and all walls break,) and so on. Braver is probably the one that can do the most in TD by itself, thanks to Combat Finish + stunning by breaking parts with Shunka - it's much easier to pick up the slack with it.

While I agree it could be expressed better, I can't deny the truth in the statement itself. Of course nobody needs to play Br only in TD, it's just highly helpful when dealing with public TD.

[ChinaSue]

Right...you're just wrong.

Before you even begin to believe you even have the authority to declare what is right and wrong for an MPA you need logical reasoning (at the least) and at best factual evidence to support what you're saying. Otherwise you're just being a trolling idiot (like as per usual with you). You have zero statistical evidence, zero evidence rooted in actual logic as opposed to simply acting like an asshole, zero visual representations in the forms of charts, graphs, or pictures. Not even anyone to fucking verbally corroborate your idiocy (infact most would plainly disagree). It's all your own (retarded) bias, that is anyone's guess to how you even bothered to think up such ridiculous ideas.

I'd actually assert that having at the very least two classes viable for zondeeling is perfect, because you get one for both sides/walls, and I'd even begin to assert that a melee techer is even well suited for that particular role because a melee techer's ability to dispatch a freshly zondeeled group despite the large amounts of health is astoundingly suited.

I only need at most, one single braver in my immediate area for clean-up or kill support, and maybe one single other gunner or braver to cover the actual wall for leaks, and I can destroy waves of enemies before they even reach the wall (in later waves where it's actually difficult to consistently do so). That's 3 people covering one wall which is less than what usually happens even when you have full groups of Gunners and Bravers rushing to zerg 12 man the little spawns on one single individual side. After only a hit or two of Wand Gear on a giant zerg I've ensured that an attack from Braver or Gunner will dispatch the enemies easily, no matter which variety of enemy is caught up in Zondeel.

I've also seen freezy casters perform quite well in protecting the walls. Rangers have Weak bullet.

The only classes I find to have limited purpose in TD is Hunter or Fighter (no particular strength VS the other melee class, Braver). Aside from those two, every class has niche that they can take advantage of in order to not only have successful runs, but legitimately pull their weight, and this still doesn't mean Hunters and Fighters are incapable of 3 runs per EQ.

Your shit is tiresome, Ratanza, and your attitude more so.

To me, it sounds like you are arguing against a point that he never made. Melee TE relies heavily on zondeel to be useful and contribute. In a pug where you have little control over who your allies are, much less their playstyle, it is possible that you can get someone in your MPA that uses zonde in TD. Why take the risk of being made useless?

[Zipzo]

In controlled amounts.

But pugging it with Zondeel is still a bad idea.

I think I've saved many a pug thanks to proper usage of Zondeel...

It depends on the perspective of the argument. Do you think it makes sense to delegate which classes are "appropriate" to bring to TD based on not knowing what any of the other classes are? Basically, which class do you have the best chance of soloing TD with (even though obviously that's not reasonable).

It's a team effort mission, and some classes have tools others cannot use that contribute to the overall effort of wiping out a wave in ways that certain classes cannot provide.

If you want to factually declare that X class is sup-optimal with its presence, you would need to break down each class in to, basically a number. Let's say if you're above a 7, you're useful to the MPA. Gunners and Bravers are a 10.

What sort of arithmetic are you using to logically assert that the power of a Zondeel is less than that of the power of a Weakbullet or a usage of Shunka? There is none, all we can do is reasonably look at the effects each skill has, and where and how it's used.

That being said, to declare that X class is useless because you don't view a certain skill as useful as the damage another skill deals when either skills function are inherently different, you're at the point where you just have no proof except with actual example bias as a proof of concept.

Also, what is the single common dominant scale for which classes are judged? Are you judging a class for its ability to be a part of a group that achieves 4 runs?

I'd have to say the single most dominant average number of runs that goes on is probably 3, and if you're scaling your judgement of a class in TD based on its ability to contribute to reaching 4...then you are probably going to need to be making your own MPAs.


To me, it sounds like you are arguing against a point that he never made. Melee TE relies heavily on zondeel to be useful and contribute. In a pug where you have little control over who your allies are, much less their playstyle, it is possible that you can get someone in your MPA that uses zonde in TD. Why take the risk of being made useless?

It's an argument he directly made which is incorrect.

Because Zondeel is useful.

Using Lightning spells is not. Hell most of the mobs in TD aren't even weak to lightning, only the flying fishes which are among the easiest to kill along with Dagans and such.

Who's odd man out? The zondeel or the person using lightning spells? Have you considered that's why it's infuriating? That someone doing something that is clearly inferior to other techs, is voiding my attempt at pulling my own weight? They are killing two birds with one stone in ruining the MPA.

[Kayarine]

I think I've saved many a pug thanks to proper usage of Zondeel...

It depends on the perspective of the argument. Do you think it makes sense to delegate which classes are "appropriate" to bring to TD based on not knowing what any of the other classes are? Basically, which class do you have the best chance of soloing TD with (even though obviously that's not reasonable).

It's a team effort mission, and some classes have tools others cannot use that contribute to the overall effort of wiping out a wave in ways that certain classes cannot provide.

If you want to factually declare that X class is sup-optimal with its presence, you would need to break down each class in to, basically a number. Let's say if you're above a 7, you're useful to the MPA. Gunners and Bravers are a 10.

What sort of arithmetic are you using to logically assert that the power of a Zondeel is less than that of the power of a Weakbullet or a usage of Shunka? There is none, all we can do is reasonably look at the effects each skill has, and where and how it's used.

That being said, to declare that X class is useless because you don't view a certain skill as useful as the damage another skill deals when either skills function are inherently different, you're at the point where you just have no proof except with actual example bias as a proof of concept.

Also, what is the single common dominant scale for which classes are judged? Are you judging a class for its ability to be a part of a group that achieves 4 runs?

I'd have to say the single most dominant average number of runs that goes on is probably 3, and if you're scaling your judgement of a class in TD based on its ability to contribute to reaching 4...then you are probably going to need to be making your own MPAs.

I don't believe anyone expects to get 4 runs with a public TD. But most want to get 3 runs, and sometimes the MP is bad enough to not even achieve 3.

I think the way you can gauge how useful a class can be in a pub TD is: how useful can it still be when more of the same class is present? How well can it perform if specific classes are absent? Can they deal with both killing a group at once and downing bosses in a timely manner? Etc. (This is in case not enough players in the MP are skilled enough.)

For example, Force/Techer is great at managing spawns with support and some aoe capability. However, multiple Forces will have lower utility because Zondeel will become redundant. And too many Forces will lack the DPS necessary to kill bosses fast.

Fighter is great for bosses, but it lacks range to deal with spawns quickly. Too many Fighters and you'll basically have to wait until spawns get to towers/walls, which is slower than killing them on spawn. Also many times Fis opt to collect crystals instead due to that, and if everyone thinks the same then there won't be enough firepower to defend walls.

Ranger is very valuable support with WB, and Satellite Cannon is good single target. But it's still hard to aoe in TD with it. I'm not entirely sure if a lot of Ras in the same MPs can still be efficient; though too many WBs is useless.

You may argue that these are extreme scenarios, but they're entirely possible. Best to be prepared for the worst, if you ask me.

[Zipzo]

I don't believe anyone expects to get 4 runs with a public TD. But most want to get 3 runs, and sometimes the MP is bad enough to not even achieve 3.

I think the way you can gauge how useful a class can be in a pub TD is: how useful can it still be when more of the same class is present? How well can it perform if specific classes are absent? Can they deal with both killing a group at once and downing bosses in a timely manner? Etc. (This is in case not enough players in the MP are skilled enough.)

With skill being such a random variable, I still don't see how you can even begin to reach a solid solution to judging a class's worth.


For example, Force/Techer is great at managing spawns with support and some aoe capability. However, multiple Forces will have lower utility because Zondeel will become redundant. And too many Forces will lack the DPS necessary to kill bosses fast.

I completely agree, in the sense that too much of any class can be unhealthy for an MPA. Even Bravers and Gunners.

Damage dealing doesn't become redundant like Zondeel does, but the lack of any other tools aside from damage can be...well...inhibiting to a faster finishing speed.


You may argue that these are extreme scenarios, but they're entirely possible. Best to be prepared for the worst, if you ask me.

Well let's say I go with that method.

In singular situations (as a TE/HU), I can very easily wipe out entire spawns on a wall or tower. I simply Zondeel, and wack a few times. It's simple.

There...I've indisputably described how I can easily provide worth in a solo situation (which actually does tend to happen often in TD pubs).

Yet certain users continue to ascribe to the idea that I'm wasting a spot? Where is the logic there?

[Xaelouse]

Zondeel is good until the first wall breaks. After that its usefulness snowballs downward

[Zipzo]

Zondeel is good until the first wall breaks. After that its usefulness snowballs downward

Hmmm...care to elaborate on this? Positioning certainly becomes more of a factor but I don't see how that limits its application. In the same vein everyone becomes less useful with walls down...it's obviously a fact that the mission becomes more difficult once that happens.

[Kayarine]

With skill being such a random variable, I still don't see how you can even begin to reach a solid solution to judging a class's worth.

It's basically how much the class can do by itself. Of course one person can't solo the entire thing without using very specific strategies, but the more people prepared to pick up the slack, the more likely it is for a run to be successful for a triple dip. Because skill is indeed variable, being able to make up for it is important.


I completely agree, in the sense that too much of any class can be unhealthy for an MPA. Even Bravers and Gunners.

Damage dealing doesn't become redundant like Zondeel does, but the lack of any other tools aside from damage can be...well...inhibiting to a faster finishing speed.

Hm. I'd say 12 Bravers are capable of triple dipping successfully without Zondeel... or even WB if well geared (though certainly not the most optimal.) Combat Finish is extremely useful for killing a pack of Goldrahdas quickly. Although it can only be used once per wave normally, it's helpful for spawnkilling heavier spawns and speeding up the run. Kanran can still tag things and prevent them from getting to towers/walls. Shunka on Goldie cores and Cyclo/Kuklo plates will stun and easily dispatch them, Hatou can break boss parts effectively to stun them.

Gunners are slightly worse than Bravers in that they don't have Combat Finish and could benefit from Zondeel more, but they can still tag spawns with Heel Stab, pick off stragglers with Infinity Fire and Shift Period specific things. Also has boss firepower with Messiah Time and IF/ER.


Well let's say I go with that method.

In singular situations (as a TE/HU), I can very easily wipe out entire spawns on a wall or tower. I simply Zondeel, and wack a few times. It's simple.

There...I've indisputably described how I can easily provide worth in a solo situation (which actually does tend to happen often in TD pubs).
That's one scenario, yes. But can you cover bosses too if the need arises? Maybe the MP has the classes to cover bulky spawns but not bosses. Or nobody knows how to tag and/or break the right boss parts before they wreck the wall/tower. Or the boss DPS is just plain bad.


I don't personally believe it's a real waste of spot - waste of spot would be people that have ungrinded gear or actively disrupt the MP like lightning users or weak northern heroes. It's just more prone to the randomness of public MPs.

[Zipzo]

It's basically how much the class can do by itself. Of course one person can't solo the entire thing without using very specific strategies, but the more people prepared to pick up the slack, the more likely it is for a run to be successful for a triple dip. Because skill is indeed variable, being able to make up for it is important.

So you're saying that a class should be judged on the extension of its ability to carry other classes O_o?


Hm. I'd say 12 Bravers are capable of being triple dipping successfully without Zondeel... or even WB if well geared (though certainly not the most optimal.) Combat Finish is extremely useful for killing a pack of Goldrahdas quickly. Although it can only be used once per wave normally, it's helpful for spawnkilling heavier spawns and speeding up the run. Kanran can still tag things and prevent them from getting to towers/walls. Shunka on Goldie cores and Cyclo/Kuklo plates will stun and easily dispatch them, Hatou can break boss parts effectively to stun them.

Yes. I've also had 3 runs with people who are un-grinded and have less of an idea of how to play than most. Three runs is really not a difficult goal. If three runs is the implied objective, then there certainly is no need to call any sort of class combination worthless or inhibiting because 3 runs is achievable in so many ways.


That's one scenario, yes. But can you cover bosses too if the need arises? Maybe the MP has the classes to cover bulky spawns but not bosses. Or nobody knows how to tag and/or break the right boss parts before they wreck the wall/tower.

Maybe not but nobody is expecting any one person to cover a boss in TD. You have 11 other people in the party, I think it's unreasonable to expect every single individual be able to solo Dark Vibras within a minute in order to be considered "worthy" or "viable".


I don't personally believe it's a real waste of spot - waste of spot would be people that have ungrinded gear or actively disrupt the MP like lightning users or weak northern heroes. It's just more prone to the randomness of public MPs.

Well that's kind how this started, someone saying that the class I play is a waste of a spot. If you disagree on the outset then we really have no disagreement conceptually.

[ChinaSue]

It's an argument he directly made which is incorrect.

Because Zondeel is useful.

Using Lightning spells is not. Hell most of the mobs in TD aren't even weak to lightning, only the flying fishes which are among the easiest to kill along with Dagans and such.

Who's odd man out? The zondeel or the person using lightning spells? Have you considered that's why it's infuriating? That someone doing something that is clearly inferior to other techs, is voiding my attempt at pulling my own weight? They are killing two birds with one stone in ruining the MPA.

So what if he's the odd man out? It's a pug and there isn't much you can do about him spamming lightning techs in TD outside of just asking him to stop or leaving the quest yourself. The point I think you are missing is the fact that it's a pug. You aren't guaranteed to have your zondeel unactivated. Should it get activated, you need something to fall back on. Melee techer doesn't have anything to fall back on.

[UnLucky]

With skill being such a random variable, I still don't see how you can even begin to reach a solid solution to judging a class's worth.



I completely agree, in the sense that too much of any class can be unhealthy for an MPA. Even Bravers and Gunners.

Damage dealing doesn't become redundant like Zondeel does, but the lack of any other tools aside from damage can be...well...inhibiting to a faster finishing speed.



Well let's say I go with that method.

In singular situations (as a TE/HU), I can very easily wipe out entire spawns on a wall or tower. I simply Zondeel, and wack a few times. It's simple.

There...I've indisputably described how I can easily provide worth in a solo situation (which actually does tend to happen often in TD pubs).

Yet certain users continue to ascribe to the idea that I'm wasting a spot? Where is the logic there?
Having 10 Bravers or 10 Gunners is way more likely to ensure a fast run than 10 of anything else.

They don't have to even care about what anyone else is doing or what the class breakdown is. You AoE, you DPS, you kill mobs. They can dash quickly, they can destroy infections quickly, and solo Vibras's bomb without WB. There's no problem with bosses either since their burst damage is so high without relying on any outside help.

With any luck, there will be one or two non Braver\Gunner classes in the MPA without having to promote it or bring them yourself.

Ranger, Force, or Fighter can either be shit or great depending on the rest of the MPA. Braver and Gunner are simply always good.

Well, unless the players themselves suck, but then it doesn't matter what they play at all. But even in that case, a bad Force or Ranger can be worse than missing a party member entirely. A bad Braver or Gunner still contributes without sabotaging other people's performance. I honestly cannot think of a single way they could negatively impact a run worse than not even being there at all. Bow Braver? It's extra damage. Non-SRoll Elder Rebellion? It helps keep enemies away from the wall.

Overwriting WB negates an entire skilled player's existence. So does spamming lightning techs.

[Zipzo]

So what if he's the odd man out? It's a pug and there isn't much you can do about him spamming lightning techs in TD outside of just asking him to stop or leaving the quest yourself. The point I think you are missing is the fact that it's a pug. You aren't guaranteed to have your zondeel unactivated. Should it get activated, you need something to fall back on. Melee techer doesn't have anything to fall back on.

It's true, if someone is single-handedly activating my Zondeels, my worth can possibly plummet because my damage output is not Braver or Gunner-esque. You make a solid point.

I tend not to assume that players will automatically be playing like shit or doing obviously grief-ey like things (such as casting lightning techs), and so far it has gotten me a consistent three runs each time.

You aren't even guaranteed to get a full 12 man MPA if you join as a Braver or Gunner. I've seen plenty of folks end up in empty MPAs during EQs even when transitioning to their next TD at a reasonable time window.

Preparing for the worst is something I can agree with conceptually, but preparing for people to do dimwitted things (like igniting zondeels) is not something I really tend to bank on.

I think it's more constructive to cut off the problem at its source, which is to tell those who are doing it to stop, instead of simply not playing the class I enjoy (competitively and usefully to the MPA) because one guy is doing something faulty. Doesn't that make sense?

[Kayarine]

So you're saying that a class should be judged on the extension of its ability to carry other classes O_o?

Pretty much. (´･ω･`) Can't deny that not everyone is a decent player.
Note that I'm specifically talking about public TD. It's different with a premade, and different classes can really shine there.


Yes. I've also had 3 runs with people who are un-grinded and have less of an idea of how to play than most. Three runs is really not a difficult goal. If three runs is the implied objective, then there certainly is no need to call any sort of class combination worthless or inhibiting because 3 runs is achievable in so many ways.

TD1 is a little easier to carry, and is a bit more lenient with more barriers and heals. TD2, on the other hand, requires more fail-resistant measures. If the walls break you just can't be everywhere at once, need to hope that there are other people that can deal with spawns. It's better to be one of those people.


Maybe not but nobody is expecting any one person to cover a boss in TD. You have 11 other people in the party, I think it's unreasonable to expect every single individual be able to solo Dark Vibras within a minute in order to be considered "worthy" or "viable".
I don't mean being able to solo Vibras in 1 minute, just be able to contribute as much damage as possible and keep the boss from destroying the tower/wall. The more people able to contribute high damage against a boss, the faster it'll go down. Again, it's better to be one of those people.


Well that's kind how this started, someone saying that the class I play is a waste of a spot. If you disagree on the outset then we really have no disagreement conceptually.
I'm debating mainly to shed some light on what the argument was. I somewhat agree with it; runs would be better on average if more people did the best possible to ensure 3 runs, so I personally try to contribute to that. But I don't think anyone who doesn't TD as Br is trash/worthless/etc.

[TaigaUC]

Zondeel is good until the first wall breaks. After that its usefulness snowballs downward

Everything snowballs downward when the first wall breaks.

I tried TD2 yesterday. Participated in two events, I think
The earlier event was bad. Two terrible groups. I think it ended with 30% or something terrible.

Second event, first run was amazing. Second run was okay.
Was hoping to get into the same group as first time, but I ended up with totally different people on all three runs.

Third run was a nightmare, but not so much because of the players (although they felt weak).
The block started lagging like fug. This was way after the event ended, so it shouldn't have been lagging that much.
Every spawn took a minute or two to come out.
When the game did spawn enemies, it'd cough out two Goldradas. TWO. Then back to idling again.
Our tickets ran out, obviously. It was not fun.
And no, the lag wasn't me. Some JP people GJ'd me with "the lag was terrible!".

Didn't bother doing TD2 today. Sick of the suckiness and BS.
Also, around half of my runs are still me taking the bomb out alone.

[UnLucky]

I actually had help taking out the bomb in my last run. I should have screenshotted it.

[Shinamori]

This is not worth using a 250% on. <_<

[Sizustar]

This is not worth using a 250% on. <_<

Unless you do it with friends or teams that you know, and each person already has a set role.

Random team can range from great, to ok, to people that have no idea on what they are doing, not healing or barrier the tower, using strange tech(Wing, or Light or Dark)

[~Aya~]

well.. logged into TD 2 but only B20 available.. first run went well! second run and with a different group... I think we made it to wave.. 4? ... 5? fail~ ._.


I agree with Sizu, you really need an organized MPA to win this 100% of the time~

[UnLucky]

Unless you do it with friends or teams that you know, and each person already has a set role.

Not gonna change the drop rates any, though.

That 30m boost is better spent elsewhere.

[Coatl]

Do cyclonehas have the dagan mindset in that if you hit them a bunch of time they will still prioritize aggro on towers? I don't know if it's me or what, but I don't notice the cyclonehdas turning back around when I kanran like golrahdas do.

I've seen war cry get their attention though.

[Zipzo]

Given that Braver is as strong as it is right now...how much do you think is appropriate for a tricked out Katana?

I was thinking about payin' 45M or so for a x6 affixed Tricked out 11* Rockbear Katana but I'm just unsure of the market on Katanas so I wanted to ask here first for other peeps experiences.

[TaigaUC]

Progressively worse runs again - great, good, crap. Half EN, half JP in all runs, but different people each time again (WHY?!)

Satellite Cannon is amazing though. Even with rank 1 and low level Ranger, I virtually solo'd Ragne twice.
WB+break leg, WB core, 100000 x5 damage.
Did the same to two Wolgardas. Fun times.
Probably helped speed the runs up a lot. Might not have got a third run in otherwise.
Tried to do it to Biblas but he's got more HP, moves around a lot, and there's not much time before his buttcheeks clench back up.

Shame I feel pretty useless otherwise.
I put up WB on Goldradas as often as possible, tag enemies with Satellite Cannon to protect the wall, etc.
Dunno if launcher shot splash damage is enough to pull enemies away from the wall.
That JP wiki thing about Satellite Cannon hitting targets as long as lock works is BS. There's a range limit.

[Coatl]

@Zipzo

Why not wait for a bio katana if you really want to min-max. hu/br 8% JA

[Shinamori]

That's what I'm gonna do. Then I'll sell my Susano, if it's not worthless by then.

[UnLucky]

Do cyclonehas have the dagan mindset in that if you hit them a bunch of time they will still prioritize aggro on towers? I don't know if it's me or what, but I don't notice the cyclonehdas turning back around when I kanran like golrahdas do.

I've seen war cry get their attention though.
Nah they definitely aggro after enough hits. They probably just start with more initial Hate towards towers.

I've even pulled Goldrahdas just by walking up to them as they spawn.

[Coatl]

Ye.

All the Bio weapons are good men. I'm interested in observing how the GU and BR nerfs will impact tower intrusion though. FO might become more hard hitting but it probably won't be enough, and RA is awful slow. I don't think the over end buff will be making it any easier on HU either. Tornado dance buff? Pfft.

[ChinaSue]

Given that Braver is as strong as it is right now...how much do you think is appropriate for a tricked out Katana?

I was thinking about payin' 45M or so for a x6 affixed Tricked out 11* Rockbear Katana but I'm just unsure of the market on Katanas so I wanted to ask here first for other peeps experiences.

If you are gearing it just for TD, you might want to give Zeshuu some consideration. 13% darker hunter latent vs. rockbear katana's 7% and only 24 s-atk weaker.

[TaigaUC]

I've pulled Cyclonedas, but it seems like they keep walking for a while before they turn around.
Kinda like how Goldradas keep running for a while before they turn around, but slower.

I'm kinda amazed Susano Guren is still so expensive.
There are that many Bravers out there.
Can't wait for all of them to try getting rid of theirs, sending the price to rockbottom.

[Dnd]

Did a random TD in b20, failed at wave 5, although losing 2 walls first wave, base and 2 walls the next, then a base a wave after that was amusing to see.

At least I got to hear the critical base HP music for awhile~

Also Susano is still expensive because its drop-rate is still so low from SHAQ

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Not gonna change the drop rates any, though.

That 30m boost is better spent elsewhere.

To be fair, the katana is still worth something for some reason.




Also Susano is still expensive because its drop-rate is still so low from SHAQ

... and it's still 2nd-3rd best katana in the game for damage, and the best katana usable by hunters who have a stat advantage in everything that matters.

[TaigaUC]

The critical BGM is intense.
Makes me feel more frustrated, like "Yes, I know we're screwed!"

Some JP people seem interested in that TD2 Katana and I don't know why.
There seems to be quite a few people who think it looks cool. It doesn't even look like a sword or katana to me.
Someone on the swiki said something about Hatou Rindou coming back into use if Shunka gets nerfed.
I guess the reduced PP latent might come in handy for that.

[UnLucky]

The extra levels and Element Conversion could be enough to bring back the ranged AoE oneshots.

Force can only either be garbage or overpowered. It either kills everything before any other class can reach the enemy, or its damage is completely irrelevant since the target won't die till the other classes can oneshot them regardless.

Unless Fighter gets a new bigger faster and stronger AoE PA, they'll still be worthless for mobbing since Bloody Sarabande will never land the strongest hits.

Hunter needs a lot more attention than Sega will ever give them, so a tiny bonus for an SP cost no Hunter sub will ever need to spend won't be enough to fix the problem.

The new Launcher PA could be stupidly effective in TD. Unless the homing aspect makes it worthless or something. Hopefully it can be aimed at the ground.

Gunner and Braver won't go anywhere. Their PAs are too useful in and of themselves. Sega is still afraid to nerf anything, so I doubt they'll cripple them.

[TaigaUC]

New PAs are probably the most fun we've all had in a while.

Hmm. Sorry, nothing new to add to strategy.
I always try tagging Ragne now, and it only works maybe 70% of the time.

[Rien]

The critical BGM is intense.
Makes me feel more frustrated, like "Yes, I know we're screwed!"

Some JP people seem interested in that TD2 Katana and I don't know why.
There seems to be quite a few people who think it looks cool. It doesn't even look like a sword or katana to me.
Someone on the swiki said something about Hatou Rindou coming back into use if Shunka gets nerfed.
I guess the reduced PP latent might come in handy for that.

The katana has reduced pp usage for more HATOU SPAM

I honestly don't understand hatou "elitism" though. At best I hit 3.5k x 3 on a single normal enemy. That's 10.5k damage. For 30 pp. Sounds good at first since you can execute this quickly in succession and it generates extra hits for anything between you and the final destination, but it ultimately requires incredible positioning which I'm still yet to grasp fully, especially vs bosses like Dragon Ex. Shunka can deal that much in the first two hits.

[Zipzo]

If you are gearing it just for TD, you might want to give Zeshuu some consideration. 13% darker hunter latent vs. rockbear katana's 7% and only 24 s-atk weaker.

It's worth noting that TD is a major reason I'm looking to pick up a nice Katana but given I had one it's likely I'd be toying with it in other places aside from TD. That being said, would you still say the Zesh Katana over the Rockbear one?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The katana has reduced pp usage for more HATOU SPAM

I honestly don't understand hatou "elitism" though. At best I hit 3.5k x 3 on a single normal enemy. That's 10.5k damage. For 30 pp. Sounds good at first since you can execute this quickly in succession and it generates extra hits for anything between you and the final destination, but it ultimately requires incredible positioning which I'm still yet to grasp fully, especially vs bosses like Dragon Ex. Shunka can deal that much in the first two hits.

Just before the tip you can hit the same hitbox 6 times. 3 hits for max damage, 3 more dealing half of that damage

It's a little strange against the darker fish though. Hit them with the tip, they'll take 3 hits to the weakpoint of the stronger hatou hits. Hit them a little before the tip, the stronger 3 hatou hits will hit their body, and the weaker 3 hits attack the weakpoint.

[UnLucky]

It hits a lot of times really fast for a lot of damage while piercing hitboxes. It's definitely more DPS than Shunka, even though it isn't as much per single use of the PA.

Feels like the same max length as Shunka's first dash.

And now this has somehow turned into the Braver thread.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It hits a lot of times really fast for a lot of damage while piercing hitboxes. It's definitely more DPS than Shunka, even though it isn't as much per single use of the PA.

Feels like the same max length as Shunka's first dash.

And now this has somehow turned into the Braver thread.

TD discussion = how-hard-will-the-braver-carry-our-asses discussion.

Pretty relevant.

[Rien]

Someone please tell me what the tip is.

Is it the very end of the horizontal reach

or is it the very end of the vertical reach

because if so I need to stop jumping when I use hatou

[Zipzo]

It hits a lot of times really fast for a lot of damage while piercing hitboxes. It's definitely more DPS than Shunka, even though it isn't as much per single use of the PA.

Feels like the same max length as Shunka's first dash.

And now this has somehow turned into the Braver thread.

Fitting seeing as how it's the only viable class for TD don't you think?

[Kamekur]

Someone please tell me what the tip is.

Is it the very end of the horizontal reach

or is it the very end of the vertical reach

because if so I need to stop jumping when I use hatou


Horizontal reach, but not the very end. Just when it starts getting wider. The PA has an absurd vertical reach by the way.

[TaigaUC]

I really want to see the updated PSO2 usage stats.
[spoiler-box]MOST USED CLASS:
Braver 60%
Gunner 39%
Everyone else 1%

MOST USED BRAVER PA:
Shunka Shunran 90%
Kanran Kikyou 5%
Hatou Rindou 4%
Asagiri Rendan 1%

MOST USED TECH:
Sa Zan 95%

Etcetra.
[/spoiler-box]

[qoxolg]

It's worth noting that TD is a major reason I'm looking to pick up a nice Katana but given I had one it's likely I'd be toying with it in other places aside from TD. That being said, would you still say the Zesh Katana over the Rockbear one?

The Rockbear one, because I have one on the market and some dumbass undercut me :-? I seriously didn't know how much it was worth. I just found an ugly katana while hunting with Giga for his lv.16 Flash thousand. I banked it without checking the price :wacko:

On topic about the Zondeel:
In a good party Zondeel wouldn't be needed. Only when enemies somehow reach the walls, zondeel is useful to pull the enemies away from the wall so it doesn't take damage. Other then that I found Techer pretty useless.

[Arksenth]

Yeah, Techer doesn't have much of a role in TD2, unlike in TD1 where the mobs are organized and compact enough that they can demolish whole spawns by themselves.

[ChinaSue]

It's worth noting that TD is a major reason I'm looking to pick up a nice Katana but given I had one it's likely I'd be toying with it in other places aside from TD. That being said, would you still say the Zesh Katana over the Rockbear one?

I guess it would depend on what else you want to use braver for. If you are only going to BR in TD or very rarely use it anywhere else, I would go for zesh. If you are planning to use braver more often, you might want some other katana as well.

If you are just wanting my opinion on what I would do, I would get zesh and then wait for bio katana for your "general use" katana.

[Alma]

was late on joining TD MPA
go to vita block expecting worse run but what do i get?

2x fail run with ALOT of AFKer

i know the vita block was bad but...please, 6ppl AFK ing while other 6 defending the base was not cool

but it maybe my mistake to..
knowing its vita blok yet im using freeze build on my FO/FI...
alot of freeze, minimum kill...

some funny thing
at 2nd run, i was defending these 1 mid tower, alot of timeout moment at that TD, and the last tower standing was my tower with half hp and 1800 pts crystal...
knowing that the only left tower was my tower, everyone go there to make final defense line

final wave start
rare bibras appear

everyone except me go to bibras...

nice logic everyone, nice logic....

[TaigaUC]

Ugh. So many terrible TD2 parties at this time of day.
Feels like it's only a few people doing most of the damage.

You know a (mostly EN) group is bad when three walls are down and towers at 50% by the end of wave 3.
I think time ran out before they could kill Ragne, and most of them were sitting on him the whole time.
Perhaps they should've considered reviving the sole WBer (lying dead next to Ragne) immediately, instead of waiting for a whole minute.
How did the sole WBer die? PULLED AGGRO trying to break a Ragne leg, because all of the EN players on Ragne couldn't seem to break a single leg's outer shell.
And of course, only a single JP person showed up to help kill the bomb.

Then I noticed some of those people were already on my blocklist. Figures.

Think I'll add these notes to the strategy points:
- If you have only one WBer, make an effort to resurrect them if they die. Don't wait until the wave is over.
- A skilled Satellite Cannon user can kill Wolgarda and Ragne in a few seconds.
- If you are a WB user, check the list for the names of other Rangers that may be using WB, and guard the opposite side from them (so that WBs don't overlap).

[Lego]

First run we got owned took 17min. Second run 12 min with walls up till the very end. Just 1 sec short of 3rd run 1 SEC! 1 SEC! REALLY...

[Alma]

forgot to add...

those lv 55 BR / lv12 HU...
3k 3k shunran...

only on vita block :wacko:

[Z-0]

I played TD2 today.

They were pretty good runs. Double FO is a beast strat providing a RA can WB Zesh Head / Ragne Core extremely quickly (one FO should also pre-emptively use Ilfoie to keep Ragne in his spawn spot). The bosses will die in less than 5 seconds -- far faster than Braver and Gunners could hope for alone.

Just some positivity in this thread instead. (Y)

[LordKaiser]

Yesterday I got S on the 1rst run and A on the 2nd run and it was a Vita block, Today I logged in late so I took the last full PC block and all the walls where broken on the 1rst wave and 4 towers broke on the 2nd wave, at that point I quit the quest and went to the a Vita block that was half full and we got B.

It was like 4 or 3 people only defending the walls.. :/

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Barely got my 3rd run. 6/12 again.

Not as horrid as some people... but tiring.

That feel during my first two runs when you rack your brain trying to figure out what went wrong at the opposite wall while defending one wall all game long, yet the shit anyone else should be defending gets wreaked first. Tired of it.

My TD2 usually end up with my wall being up until final wave, other wall broken since wave 4. Yes, I do get the wolgadas... and they get my war cry.

[TaigaUC]

It feels like, often I'm defending as well as I can. Feels like the wall took little damage.
Then when I travel south, I see a bunch of towers down south at 70% or less. This is with all walls still up.
And I wonder, how the hell did that happen? Saw nothing on the map.

[Rien]

It feels like, often I'm defending as well as I can. Feels like the wall took little damage.
Then when I travel south, I see a bunch of towers down south at 70% or less. This is with all walls still up.
And I wonder, how the hell did that happen? Saw nothing on the map.

1. Teleporting Dicadas
2. Darker infections on towers not being attended to on time.

[Z-0]

If you're a Force and you see Dicahdas on the map not being attended to, you should really throw a Rafoie to get aggro on them / kill them.

Who cares about the Zondeel, you are saving far more time by stopping the mantis from going past the wall.

[Code-red]

Pretty much most people still haven't gotten use to the new attack pattens yet or adapted a strategy to deal with the enemies fast enough.

the 2 runs on my end took a nose dive once wave 3 started and Zeshrayda showed up.
And the fighters didn't manage to distract the boss to boost charging to the right. instead they had the boss facing the direction of the wall cause,they were too busy trying to do as much damage as possible. After I WB the head and Zeshrayda busted through the right outer wall both times. The second time i stayed longer but same result this time all the walls fell.

I just ended up putting down my controller and rage quit since there was nothing that can be done to keep the bases from getting smoked.

Man I really got bad luck when it comes to TDs missions.

[Lego]

Why dont u guys do TD together seems u would always get ~99% and 4 runs...

[LordKaiser]

Well I started playing PSO2 again yesterday since I had a GPU overheating problem but the e-quests went smoothly and BTW 5 of them where around Lv.55-57 so I disagree with the "This quest is for Lv.65 players" mentality. My friend was with me, he was Lv.65 force, there where some Lv.65 Bravers, I saw a ranger using WB.

BTW today there was someone near me asking for moons, but with 4 towers down I dint wanted to continue the quest so I got myself killed. I apologize if it was someone in here. i think you are better off going in parties at least with 1 other known player.

[Zipzo]

Why dont u guys do TD together seems u would always get ~99% and 4 runs...

Hahaha...

The new guy does have a point!

[Rien]

Well I started playing PSO2 again yesterday since I had a GPU overheating problem but the e-quests went smoothly and BTW 5 of them where around Lv.55-57 so I disagree with the "This quest is for Lv.65 players" mentality. My friend was with me, he was Lv.65 force, there where some Lv.65 Bravers, I saw a ranger using WB.

BTW there was someone near me asking for moons, but with 4 towers down I dint wanted to continue the quest so I got myself killed. I apologize if it was someone in here. i think you are better off going in parties at least with 1 other known player.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130728030823/supersmashbrosfanon/images/7/7c/Holdit.png

How in the world is 4 towers being down smooth?

[UnLucky]

I played TD2 today.

They were pretty good runs. Double FO is a beast strat providing a RA can WB Zesh Head / Ragne Core extremely quickly (one FO should also pre-emptively use Ilfoie to keep Ragne in his spawn spot). The bosses will die in less than 5 seconds -- far faster than Braver and Gunners could hope for alone.

Just some positivity in this thread instead. (Y)
With Ilgrants, or what?

If you're a Force and you see Dicahdas on the map not being attended to, you should really throw a Rafoie to get aggro on them / kill them.

Who cares about the Zondeel, you are saving far more time by stopping the mantis from going past the wall.
Really wish people would prioritize these guys. ER is so good for stopping them I can practically take the whole spawn myself, yet I've seen the entire group all jump to a tower before (where I took them out and an infection in one PA, earning me first place having never traveled beyond the wall that round).

[Z-0]

With Ilgrants, or what?
Ilbarta. Multiple FOs spamming this on one boss is the fastest way to kill any boss (except Bibras cuz he's a bitch; you'd have too many FOs it would be counter-productive to bring that many).

[LordKaiser]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130728030823/supersmashbrosfanon/images/7/7c/Holdit.png

How in the world is 4 towers being down smooth?LMAO! I forgot to add the word today to the 2nd paragraph. I fixed it now ^^;

[UnLucky]

Ilbarta. Multiple FOs spamming this on one boss is the fastest way to kill any boss (except Bibras cuz he's a bitch; you'd have too many FOs it would be counter-productive to bring that many).

Yeah, so long as you coordinate well enough to charge the 7th hit.

But I've yet to actually use Ilbarta with anybody, though.

We should get together sometime and rub our ice techs together.

[Rien]

Ilbarta. Multiple FOs spamming this on one boss is the fastest way to kill any boss (except Bibras cuz he's a bitch; you'd have too many FOs it would be counter-productive to bring that many).

A single party of 4 FOs can rotate Ilbarta well enough to sink any boss with all their PP bars combined. I've tried this and every second cast will trigger the nuke.

That same single party of 4 FOs can freeze well enough protect mobs from reaching the wall while bravers/gunners get to them and obliterate them.

[ChinaSue]

Yeah, so long as you coordinate well enough to charge the 7th hit.

But I've yet to actually use Ilbarta with anybody, though.

We should get together sometime and rub our ice techs together.

I don't think there is really much coordination to it. Just always use charged.

I think it is also worth noting that you can destroy the back breakable pretty easily with a single ilbarta, which staggers the goldys for a few seconds.

[UnLucky]

Well then you'd better hope nobody wants to use their Elysion

[TaigaUC]

Two bad groups again. Around 50% and 60%. 16+ minute runs.
Second one was almost entirely all Bravers, but they lost all four walls by wave 4 or 5.
I ended up soloing Wolgardas, etc. Took out Ragne using SatCan.

I don't understand why nobody goes for Zeshi's thigh when it has WB on it.
Then he just runs amok and kills the walls in wave 3. Every time.


1. Teleporting Dicadas
2. Darker infections on towers not being attended to on time.

1. I don't think teleporting mantises can teleport past two walls.
2 is possible, but like I said, I look at the map fairly regularly so it's strange that I'm somehow missing multiple infections down south in wave 3/4.
Will try to pay more attention, I guess.
Though nowadays I'm the only WBer on the bosses, so someone else should be taking care of the infections anyway.

Speaking of which, even if I check whether there are other Rangers, some of them NEVER use WB.

Also, still only getting 1-3 ten stars per TD2 event, with 250% drop.
It's really not worth it.

[UnLucky]

Three S Ranks, four 10*s, 0% RDR bonus.

Pretty smooth runs, only lost a single wall in the last wave on the last spawn (went back to heal a tower and waited for it to smash).

Twice the boss died while throwing the bomb, so luckily we didn't have to worry about that.

Lots of War Cry usage and proper boss turning. Nothing jumped, and whoever held aggro kept the boss attacking parallel or away from the walls, which is especially important for fighting Wolgas.

[TaigaUC]

Lots of War Cry usage and proper boss turning. Nothing jumped, and whoever held aggro kept the boss attacking parallel or away from the walls, which is especially important for fighting Wolgas.

Will add boss-turning to the notes.

I added some class-specific tips to the opening post.

[Atmius]

I don't understand why nobody goes for Zeshi's thigh when it has WB on it.
Then he just runs amok and kills the walls in wave 3. Every time.

If it's apparent nobody else is even remotely interested in zesh, just pre-charge a sat cannon to get his hate as he spawns, and then just stay relatively close to him and he wont charge (or if he does, it wont be towards the walls, but you instead). Eventually people will notice "oh hey, zesh is still alive, how weird" and actually start attacking it.

[Rien]

1. I don't think teleporting mantises can teleport past two walls.


They can if they want to. They port straight to the tower they are aiming for.

[IndigoNovember]

They can if they want to. They port straight to the tower they are aiming for.

He means, if both sets of walls are up, ディカーダ and プレディカーダ that spawn up North can't teleport all the way down and start hitting the Southern towers. They will only teleport and attack the middle towers.

[Zipzo]

He means, if both sets of walls are up, ディカーダ and プレディカーダ that spawn up North can't teleport all the way down and start hitting the Southern towers. They will only teleport and attack the middle towers.

Had several runs where walls stayed up the whole run and several times we had teleported mobs end up smacking green tower with everyone scrambling to get all the way back there and relieve the situation.

Pretty sure they can.

[Rien]

Had several runs where walls stayed up the whole run and several times we had teleported mobs end up smacking green tower with everyone scrambling to get all the way back there and relieve the situation.

Pretty sure they can.

This. Unfortunately for us they go wherever the hell they want to.

Fortunately this doesn't happen until wave 3/4.

[TaigaUC]

I've never seen enemies teleport all the way to green with all the walls up.
Will check later.

Confirmed that bosses will spawn all the way up top even if all 4 walls are down.


If it's apparent nobody else is even remotely interested in zesh, just pre-charge a sat cannon to get his hate as he spawns, and then just stay relatively close to him and he wont charge (or if he does, it wont be towards the walls, but you instead). Eventually people will notice "oh hey, zesh is still alive, how weird" and actually start attacking it.

Thanks. I thought Zesh just charged anyway, didn't realize staying close prevented it.
Usually a few people attack him, but they don't go for the WB. That's why I'm confused.

[Alma]

got 3 smooth run this time

1st run was the usual super BR's MPA (like uh...10 of them zergling and demolishing every wave coming to the wall, making it intact till final wave.
despite no RA and WB, boss on each wave died very fast

what surprising are the 2nd and 3rd run
literally half of the MPA was FO'S and TE'S and the rest was the usual FI and BR (again no RA, no WB)

the TE was using zondeel in conjunction with the FO's freezing zondeeled enemy, everytime, on each side, keeping the wall intact till final wave where bibras manage to break one of the wall (but still died fairly fast thanks to all TE and FO join the fray with ilbarta when there' no mob spawn anymore

3 run, all S rank, all tower intact and 90-100% HP on each tower :)

[TaigaUC]

I logged in and noticed TD2, so my friend and I tried to get into a run.
Waited for a while to fill up. Once it hit 12/12, someone started the teleporter.
We entered the map, and then... 2 people left. No idea when, but it was near the very start.
Would be nice if people could join late to fill the gaps or something.
Anyway, we completed it with only green still barely standing.

My friend got 6 ten stars, using unknown leftover boost ticket, and 15% lucky rise boost.
I got 1 ten star, using +250% rare drop 15% lucky rise boost.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

3 great runs with 3 teammates, and more or less the same mpa from the previous run.

At least 3 war cries including me. I took it upon myself myself to stay on the left, pin bosses on 3 and 5, ninja mantises, wave 4 wolga if any were on my side, the shunka'ed occasionally with my susano and 2k+ atk when I made sure everything in the area wasn't swinging at a wall. I made aggro my job really.

Worst damage anything suffered across 3 runs was the front left wall got dented when ragne jumped away, hit it, and jumped back to me. After this, walls were never even dented.

Someone was waiting at green the one time vibras (or in this case, rinzes) got to throw a bomb despite weak bullet dps on him.

[IndigoNovember]

Had several runs where walls stayed up the whole run and several times we had teleported mobs end up smacking green tower with everyone scrambling to get all the way back there and relieve the situation.

Pretty sure they can.

Whoa, I have never seen that. Thanks for the heads up.

[TaigaUC]

Yeah, I am wondering what the requirements are for those kinds of situations to occur.
Seems there are a few things that just occur very rarely.

[Evangelion X.XX]

There was a Fo freezing everything in sight in TD2. I don't know how many times he probably saved all of our asses.

Sent a GJ to him...

[gigawuts]

There was a Fo freezing everything in sight in TD2. I don't know how many times he probably saved all of our asses.

Sent a GJ to him...

Yeah, I'm going to put this build together later on.
http://ryuhiroshi.funpic.de/pso2/skillcalc.php?06hAbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIkbnIk0lbI n0000000jebHoGBbnGFfHNinrA0000Ib000000lb0000084OI2 2FGJgKhnIkjbo00007b0000000Ib000008

It's been known for a while that you can use Halfline Boost and a specific Barta recipe to get nearly 100% freeze rate for some time, but it hasn't really had an application and fell off the radar as little more than a novelty build. Freezing anything and everything in sight was never really necessary.

Until TD2 pugging extravaganzas, that is.

Force can be an even more invaluable asset to a pug party now because of this. Even in TD1 it's not nearly as useful because even when you do need freeze you can just use a barrier. You can't use barriers on the walls.

[TaigaUC]

Ugh. Third run 7/12. If only we were a few seconds faster.
The number of times I saw enemies pounding the crap out of walls with nobody on them...
Or casters standing next to them casting Il Grants and not Zondeel/Ice... UGH.
Assuming panic chance is not as high as freeze (from what I've experienced).

Meanwhile, my friend logged in late and had no choice but B20.
They got into a run only to find themselves uncontrollably spamming right mouse PA.
Yay B20 hackers.

On the plus side, got 7 ten stars.

[Arksenth]

Got 99.44% in TD2.

I AM A GOD WORSHIP ME.

[TaigaUC]

Got 99.44% in TD2.

I AM A GOD WORSHIP ME.

Solo? That is pretty damn impressive.
The things you can do when you're rich!

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Meanwhile, my friend logged in late and had no choice but B20.
They got into a run only to find themselves uncontrollably spamming right mouse PA.
Yay B20 hackers.


:nono: Those guys are fucking scum.

[RyanDanger]

In my second run of TD2 today I was rocking high getting gold each wave until all of a sudden I couldn't see the enemies anymore. I couldn't hit them but I also never got hit. Everyone else seemed fine. I could see damage numbers and exp, I could also barrier and heal but..eh..yeah, no enemies. ^^;

I got to watch everything I protected fall and I could literally do nothing about it xD

What was up with that?

edit: my chat also still worked and people responded to me and such.

[LordKaiser]

I ran on a almost empty block, I think it was b16.. I forgot. I waited patiently with a male avatar because we knew the rest would be auto-matched to us. It went smoothly and I don't believe that any tower went off but I got A ranking.... 1 of the walls broke almost at the end of the 3rd wave... So everything most go perfect....

Anyway when running this I'll suggest bringing up the map with n constantly. I only had time for 1 run sadly.. No Kongo for me.

[Sandmind]

In my second run of TD2 today I was rocking high getting gold each wave until all of a sudden I couldn't see the enemies anymore. I couldn't hit them but I also never got hit. Everyone else seemed fine. I could see damage numbers and exp, I could also barrier and heal but..eh..yeah, no enemies. ^^;

I got to watch everything I protected fall and I could literally do nothing about it xD

What was up with that?

edit: my chat also still worked and people responded to me and such.

Sound like you got hit with the bug, in vh darker den, where ragne-chan could decide to spawn on only 1 person screen, while the other 3 got to wait until it die to move on, only being able to throw support at them.

Well, it could happen at any time, and I think I got once hit with that bug in a quarry MPA, against a random boss not showing up for me. In your case, it was taken to eleven...

[TaigaUC]

Two runs where I primarily handled WB, went very very smoothly.
Third group, I ended up with different people.
A JP? guy said "I'll do WB", but when Rigshirayda spawned, I didn't see WB on his legs.
After SatCanning once or twice, I decided to load WB and shoot the thigh.

Turns out that person goes for the head instead of the legs.
I was up close to prevent him from charging, so I didn't see it.
I apologized, but the damage had already been done:
Rigshirayda soon charged away from both of us, humped the wall, then sat there pumping projectiles into it until it collapsed.
After that, the rest of the run spiralled to hell. Rank percentage was 30%.

Not sure if the hell spiral was entirely because of me, but yeah...
Multiple Rangers using different strategies = problem.

Can anyone confirm if a Ranger handling Zeshirayda alone is better off breaking a leg or going straight for the head?
If going for the head, I'm concerned that he will take off before he can be killed.
Also, I noticed that Zeshirayda CAN spawn immediately in wave 3. It may be restricted to the rare version only, but not sure.

[UnLucky]

Purple and Blue both get infected at the same time, so I jump over and smash one. Didn't use a barrier, might not have had the points, so I had to wait for it to actually show. Other side still had theirs up when I finished so I ran over and destroyed that one too, just in time for someone else to jump down and pretend to help.

Map awareness is so valuable in this quest, so please look at your map! I know it doesn't show MPA members when you're zoomed out, but it's still far enough to peer over the wall! Not to mention infections are marked even if they're nowhere near you. I'm constantly monitoring the little dots on my minimap to gauge where I need to be, and it's such a relief to see one next to those two closest towers.

Though I guess I can't really complain too much. Overall smooth runs, and despite several infections on Green, I never personally went to deal with any of those. So someone is keeping track of that, at least.

[TaigaUC]

Did everyone already know that destroying an infection nets you like 100 or 200 points?
Not that it really matters.