Technique % modifier question

[illidelph]

so i'm getting into tech crafting for my fo/te and its got me thinking:

how exactly to all the % modifiers work for techs and do they all mean what i think they mean?

i mean when you craft say a lv16 foie at the blazing 3 recipe and get great success at +60% power, that 60% just gets added straight up to the 508% power of foie 16. so we're left with 568 foie, not that big of a gain, but might be a good bet for its added speed effect. so tech crafting for power is a personal choice obviously, but this has me thinking, what other % of tech powers work in the same way? or are they all multipliers like i thought and crafting is the only "added" percent weirdo one?

there are the individual element masteries on force and techer and those say "increase the power of __ element by 120%" these get multiplied together and not added so having 2 10sp (or "full") masteries is not 140%, but 144% (1.2*1.2) or as the rough translation of the jp wiki quotes it:

"Damage of fire attribute technique by shaking the skill points until both maximum rises 44%"

i assume the other force and techer % bonuses like charge tech, ja tech and techer's elem.w.hit work the same way all creating a nice long string of multipliers, this is where potentially talises take over(if you're good at throwing them..) with their additional 1.2 multiplier over rod's greater static t-atk raw damage

finally there is the % for potentials of certain weapons such as Bert Rodan that ups fire tech, jp translation:

"Damage of fire attribute technique rises 16 percent"

so probably this turns into a 1.16 multiplier that multiplies into the overall modifier equation? or at least thats what i assume. this crafting business of adding % has me questioning everything tho, can anyone outthere say for sure? i just hope that none of this besides crafting gets added to the overall % modifier equation instead of multiplied by it since that would mean significantly smaller gains. hopefully judging by the popularity of all the elemental and racial weps, those % do multiply and ARE infact of big help. anyways, please help

p.s: been using zandion a lot and loving the crap out of it (got both wind and lighting masteries since it gets both!!). thing is tho your weapon dissapears when you use it, so my guess is it's "on you back" for the duration of zandion? meaning that rods with their higher raw t-atk will contribute the highest damage to it, making Stark Katze with its wind potential and higher t-atk than Satellite Riser the best wep for it? or is there a way to benefit from the thrown talis bonus somehow?:-?

[LonelyGaruga]

When crafting adjusts the power of a tech, it is different from potentials and other % modifiers. Here's the damage formula for techs to provide some context.

(T-ATK - T-DEF) / 5 * Elemental Hitzone * PA * Modifier

PA stands for the notation of the attack. All attacks have a power notation. 100 power = a 1.0 multiplier in this context. Foie is normally a 5.08% modifier, but becomes a 5.68% modifier when crafted. Using some random numbers to give an example...

(3000 - 270) / 5 * 1.2 * 5.08 * 3 = 9,985
(3000 - 270) / 5 * 1.2 * 5.68 * 3 = 11,164

Blazing Foie is about 11-12% stronger than an uncrafted Foie. So as you can see, it isn't a straight up 60% modifier, but it does add a nice chunk of damage nonetheless.

Now, potentials, on the other hand, are straight up modifiers. In the variable Modifier in the damage formula, every % adjustment you have to your attack becomes applied. Tech Charge Advance, Tech JA Advance, Flame Mastery, stuff like that. This includes your potential. Crimson Crystal and the like are a 1.16% modifier to your final damage. Using another example to show this with some random numbers to fill out the unimportant areas, we get this.

(3000 - 270) / 5 * 1.2 * 5.08 * 1 = 3,328
(3000 - 270) / 5 * 1.2 * 5.08 * 1.16 = 3,860

This is indeed 16% more damage.

You are indeed correct in that all % modifiers multiply, and are not additive. With the exception of criticals (which are additive), this is basically how all % modifiers work. If you were to put Crimson Crystal and maxed Flame Mastery 1/2 together, you would get 1.67%, as opposed to 1.56%. An 11% difference, which is quite significant when trying to calculate your actual damage. Talises generally have higher damage output because of this, especially with affixing. The static difference between an extra 300 or so T-ATK to both sides would still be the same, but in terms of %, the talis gained a much more significant increase than the rod did. However, talises are not always convenient to use, and they are slower than rods, so they won't always be the best thing to use or even the most damaging in terms of DPS.

As far as I am aware regarding Zandion, it applies the weapon's T-ATK just fine. It does not apply Talis Tech Bonus, however, as there is no way to cast it from a talis. So a rod would indeed be the best weapon to switch to when using Zandion, as the only benefits your weapon can give are T-ATK and a potential. The best possible damage output you can get from Zandion would involve the 12* rod with Ancient Oath (14%), as it has about 150-180 T-ATK more than most rods with an elemental latent, which more than makes up for the 2% decrease. However, because Ancient Oath requires you to be attacking an enemy weak to the element, it would be better to use Stark Katze or Satellite Riser on non-lightning/wind weak targets.

[Perfect Chaos]

Illidelph, you're pretty much correct on all of your assumptions on the multipliers. Crafting is indeed static, or else something like x1.6 on Foie would be pretty ridiculous. LOL
Also, as for Zandion, the Lightning and Wind Masteries do both indeed work on it, but it won't give a 207.36% multiplier on all attacks, unfortunately. The hitboxes associated with your body charging forward are Wind element and the hitboxes on the thunderbolts are Lightning element, so any skill/potential multiplier for the elements only work for the corresponding hit. Also, you can't Just Attack it nor do skills like Talis Tech Bonus and Tech Arts JA Bonus work on it.

Edit: Ninja'd

[illidelph]

thanks guys! good to know,
this makes me feel safer with my force-related knowledge base :)

so what im taking away from this is:

-stick to all % modifier skills in the trees (talis bonus being best, but varying with player skill/affixing)
-do the math for the techs that you want to craft for damage since those are more or less worth it depending on your style(using what tech for what purpose as in 1-shot or spam), set-up(wep/units, affixing etc) and individual tech recipe
-switch to your best/most-applicable rod(or something nasty like Rika bow) for zandion (preferably with some sort of elemental % potential)

so for zandion, i seem to get the just attack sound when i hit the zandion button after a rod swipe or another tech and definitely can just attack out of it, could be my imagination tho on just attacking into it, will have to run more tests. i just love it since it has a real nice interplay between other techs and ketos proi pb:
-spam aoe techs that fill up zandion fast from multiple enemy hits such as gibarta in the facilty
-then as im about to run out of pp hit zandeon and get more hits in for ketos which doesnt take much to charge up anyways
-then since zandion costs 0pp and i recharge pp while charging/using zandeon i end up getting some pp back and hopefully finishing the pb
-then releasing ketos while using up the pp i got back during zandion while ketos does its thing
-then spam ketos's pp and getting zandion back, rinse and repeat

of course this is an ideal case scenario, but i just feel like zandion in such a nice combo piece for fo/te, giving you something to do when you run out of pp, especially since i have lots of invincibility mag triggers on full pb and zandion itself makes you invincible during the animation(after releasing the charge). i also die so much during pp convert at later difficulties that im looking into other ways to sustain the rod pp spam(since i assume talis's range would make pp convert safer), zandion providing one such answer. also later on when sega (i assume) releases more compound techs it would be nice to spam 2-3 of them in a row!

[LonelyGaruga]

Generally speaking, % bonuses are best when it comes to increasing your damage, but static gains shouldn't be ignored either. It varies for every weapon, but the generalization (though, formed years ago, so not necessarily accurate to current gameplay) is that 20 ATK = 1 %. This makes T-ATK Up High very good, as it is 120 T-ATK, or 6% with this generalization, for merely 5 SP. It would of course be better to do the math yourself to figure out what will increase your damage the most.

From my estimates, 40 T-ATK = 1 % for a rod, and 30 T-ATK = 1% for a talis. But those estimates come from 6s and various buffs applied. With 2s and no buffs, it's closer to 30 T-ATK = 1% for a rod, and 20 T-ATK = 1% for a talis. So you could go with whichever you choose. Either way, T-ATK Up High is pretty good, especially since Shifta and Shifta Drink will have their effectiveness increased the higher your base T-ATK is.

For crafting, generally speaking, I would go something like this.

General usage: Charge = Damage > PP > Multi > Speed = Range > Status
Uncharged: PP = Damage > Multi > Speed = Range > Status > Charge
Support: Range > Charge > Multi > PP > Damage > Speed > Status

As far as DPS goes when it comes to general usage, there are two important things to check for: PP Efficiency and...well, DPS. Naturally. If a tech can be crafted to be extremely PP efficient, such as Foie and Sazan, PP becomes more important to craft for because you can spam it without worrying about PP costs. It's great for Foie because of the charge time, and great for Sazan because it gets better DPS uncharged. DPS is a combination of damage and speed. If a tech charges faster, it gets better DPS. If a tech does more damage, it gets better DPS. Weigh both of these factors to decide what to craft for. PP isn't an issue if there is no way to make the tech PP efficient in the first place, so just concentrate on DPS or other practical applications available.

For uncharged techs, I would like to put PP efficiency above damage, but that would imply not crafting Namegid, which is bad because the damage recipe is great despite the PP demerit. As highlighted above, if it can't be made PP efficient in the first place, focus on crafting other properties, like damage. Since charge time is meaningless for techs best used uncharged, it is a nonissue to craft for.

For support techs, my generalization is assuming using them solely for supporting other people in addition to yourself. Otherwise, it's a case by case situation, as most support techs have good recipes for both crafts. Only ones you should undoubtedly get are Zondeel's status recipe (+1m for range as a bonus effect) and the charge time reduction for Zanverse (as that is something that you always want to use charged, unlike Megiverse, which has the same recipes but merits to both of them due to its life drain properties).

Some techs are great for both charged and uncharged (like Namegid). For those, weigh the advantages of both to decide what to craft for. Though, Namegid is a bad example with that, because it's either +power - PP or +range - power, and Namegid is a very powerful tech with poor range that has little to gain from the latter recipe.

Finally getting into the PP Convert part, there are a few options. Focusing on PP reduction crafting, so that you always have a tech that costs ~10 for each element, affixing more stamina (to make PP Convert safer) or PP (so you need PP Convert less often), getting better units for superior defensive abilities, improving your damage output so that your PP goes further and enemies die faster (nothing less dangerous than a dead enemy!), or, and probably the least immediately helpful, identifying what you get hit by and trying to find ways to prevent those hits from happening in the first place. Mostly important for when you consistently get hit by something, such as an offscreen Predicahda (solution would be keeping a careful ear out for them and annihilating them as soon as you hear them). PP Convert is a very important skill to Fo/Te usage, so taking the best advantage you can of it is key, whether by minimizing the number of times you need it so that you'll always have it when it's important or taking measures to avoid your time getting cut short by an untimely injury.

Personally, I believe the best thing you can do is ensure that your units are up to date. That alone should suffice your defensive needs. Force is, unfortunately, inherently frail, but there is no incentive to affixing HP or even focusing on it beyond not dying, and as you develop as a player and build skills and experience, that incentive is going to be less valuable over time. Of course, there is no harm in affixing stamina if you intend to replace the units anyway, as it'll be easier for you to get new ones that way than to reaffix the stuff you already have, so there's always that option too.

[Perfect Chaos]

General usage: Charge = Damage > PP > Multi > ...I particularly like to prioritize Multi Recipes if they are available, since with the added hit(s) comes more power. Take Ra-Barta and Ra-Zan, for instance; with the increases hit(s) on those, even with the max power demerit, you'll still get much more damage than uncrafted of those, since each hit still does roughly the same damage as before (as the power demerit for Multi is pretty small). Compared to Ra-Barta crafted for power, you'll only lose a tiny bit of strength, but with a 39% chance of freezing, that extra hit goes a long way, especially in UQ. And Multi Ra-Zan hits 5 times instead 3, making you do roughly 1.6 times the damage, which the other recipe of Ra-Zan can't even come close to. That, and the other one also increases charge time as the demerit, decreasing the DPS a bit. (So I would never even consider anything but Multi for Ra-Zan.) Multi Na-Grants gets more overall max damage, but also has a bit more charge time, so those kind of even out, but I'd still prefer Multi for this.

[LonelyGaruga]

I should clarify, when I put damage there, I meant both damage and multi, for when multi adds more damage than the other recipe. The priority for damage is...well, damage. Multi recipes are the only other recipe that can directly add damage besides damage recipes, so they're a special case. Since Rabarta does worse damage with the multi recipe than it does the damage recipe, I would not personally recommend it, but it's true that the freeze is quite good. For the other two, there is no question that the multi recipes do more damage when charged. Razan, however, is similar to Sazan and Nazan in that it does half damage uncharged, meaning for DPS, Windslicer Razan off an Elysion is the most optimal way to use it. But the charge time demerit does make it harder to utilize in TAs.