XBox: A purely hypothetical question about offline cheating.

[Axelay]

OK, so I had someone explain to me today how offline cheating is accomplished on the Xbox, and I'd like to have a rational discussion about the ramifications of this. I will come forward and say that I am NOT interested in cheating, nor do I have the tools to even do so, but from a technical standpoint I do have some issues with the way PSO cheating is prevented. Or not...

Here's the first part of my question - as long as PSO has an offline component, how could MS ever truly police the cheating out of the game? If you log into Xbox Live at level 5, and then log back on two days later at level 75, there's no way they could monitor how exactly you gained those levels... right?

Second part - if this is true so far, then how could MS ever stop you from duping expendables while offline? Let's say you have 1 Material, go offline, dupe the crap out of it, and then proceed to use them on your character until you max him/her out. You then go online with that character. There's just not any way that Xbox Live can distinguish that "bad code" was used to alter those stats because the items you used were simply a single legitimate item that was cloned over and over and then used up to change your stats.

Third part - I don't even see how this is possible, but I was told that you have to edit the hex code on your character's save file, replace it on a memory card, and then load it into PSO as though it were legit. This seems like WAY too much work just to screw up this game, so I want to know if anyone can confirm that this is how it's done. I can't believe that someone would go to this length just to give themselves a rare weapon or whatnot. Generating "bad code" for items that came completely from thin air is a surefire way to get banned.

*sigh* I'm just glad I never got PK'ed for stuff like this back in the day. I used to enjoy this game so much, but I have always felt that it was flawed for having an offline component. Because of that, the cheating mayhem can take place where no one can prevent it. So what do you think about this stuff?

[hawaiianPride]

Im sorry to say. But i just saw a guy with a Double cannon, lvl 47 and a dark flow(olga flow sword)this is totally hacking because the requried atp on a double cannnon is 900, what the hell. How the hell does he get a dark flow? he is damn level 47. And what the hell is with the demolition comet.To get those items he has got be over level 100. Or he went through normal 5000 times to get enough power materials to get his atp over 900 and he has got to have 4 god powers. and lvl 200 mag with 195 pow. PSOX hasent even been out that long and its gonna be hacked. I got psox hoping it wouldent be a duplicate of DC.

You dont have to trust what i just posted but i saw what i saw and now im really pissed off.
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[VioletSkye]

Ummm. no offense, but to think that PSOX would be cheat free even for awhile is plain ignorance. There will always be those who LOVE digging through lines of code or experimenting hours on end trying to find exploits. And as far as MS monitoring them, good luck. Its alot like Diablo 2 (which by the way I coded some KILLER editors and mods for) in that, unless they completely rewrite the game and ship it out there isn't anything in the game itself to stop duping. As far as hex editting is concerned it isn't really that much work at all if you know what you're doing. And the code being generated is not "bad code" it is the EXACT same code as the original. And how do you think the game makes the items appear, it generates the code for you as a drop.

I can create a level 1 char that can wield any item for its class from the start, including say BKB, Double Cannon etc. If you use a mag that has say 195 power, then add 4 god powers and finally max out your char with the appropriate mats, then voila you're a hard hittin' pimp at level 1. Easy as hell. Armor is more difficult in that it is based on level. So you would need to edit the level requirements for say Lafuteria if you wanted to wear at level 1.

Now lets look at the question of MS monitoring for dupes. As I stated the game code is the same as the original unlike some games, and as far as I can see PSO does not stamp an item. Therefore, how would they determine whose item should be deleted? Add to that the fact that many times rares will have the same stats and %'s which again means the exact same code even though the items are legit. Now factor in the fact that the more monitoring they do, the more lag you will incur and no one wants that.

So the solution is clear. If you want to play legit then do it. You will most likely enjoy the game far more and you'll actually have a sense of accomplishment. Don't worry about what other people are doing, its their business anyway. We all need to stop concerning ourselves so much with the actions of others. Does it ruin the trade economy? YES of course. Is that a good thing? NO of course not. Will it come to a stop anytime soon? DOUBTFUL, VERRRRYY DOUBTFUL. So play the game and enjoy it on your terms. If you believe an item is duped don't trade for it. Most of all, just have fun and try to enjoy the social aspect of it because in the end it is merely a game.

[hyuga]

<sniff> I got emotional reading that last paragraph.

[Axelay]

VioletSkye, I do agree with you that it'd be a fallacy to hope for a PSO that's not hacked in some way. I think it's amazing that Sonic Team does NOT tag each weapon in order to make it unique. I had been under the impression from back in the Dreamcast days that certain weapons were clearly identifiable so that the developers could determine if they had been hacked or not. But how is this possible if someone uses some common sense? It'd just be retarded to have a rare weapon with a 100% attribute on anything.

Here's the real question I have: if someone were to dupe stuff offline, use a little common sense about it, and then bring it online... how on earth could Microsoft pretend to say that they could prevent cheating?! It's just silly to me that people think that cheating can be prevented.

Do I hate cheaters? Heck no, I'm one of them myself. I do HATE malicious cheaters, though, who seek to ruin others' games. I can recall way back in the day when the Dreamcast version came out, I spent some time figuring out ways to dupe stuff without needing a Code Breaker or Gameshark. And yes, it worked flawlessly. Did I ever go nuts with it? Nope, all I ever wanted were Materials and Grinders. I still liked having to search for - and trade for - the weapons.

[VioletSkye]

Axelay I am in total agreement with you concerning items being tagged or stamped in some way. It would not have been that difficult to add some sort of code gen to the drop process that would randomly generate a small 4 or 6 character hex code for an item that could be read as the game was booting. Say for instance your BKB had a key of 00 FF AC (just an example) and if you tried loading 2 of that item it would simply delete one. Now you would need to make sure that there was some sort of logic to the key being generated so that someone could not just go in and change a character or 2. That would in essense be the end of the USB duping method at least until someone cracks the logic for the keys being generated. Anyway just a suggestion to Sonic Team if they decide to release a new game or episode.

[Kryslin]

Instead of a code for the item, plus a signature, why not use the random number seed that generated the drop, the user alterable details (grind), and a time stamp of when it dropped/was last altered? Then, bitscramble them upon saving. Or, encrypt them. Or both. You get this 18 byte mess that should be beyond the scope of most casual hackers to decipher.

Upon loading, or any item drop, the new item is compared against those in inventory or in the bank, and if it's a duplicate, the new one is discarded.

Also, to prevent someone from triggering the section of code that does this, perhaps passing the address of the calling routine to the routine that generates drops would keep someone from hacking into the drop routines and just spewing random drops until they got thier match.

Regardless, any truly dedicated hacker will see all this, snicker, and proceed to go and generate duped items that have unique sigantures, making them indistinguishable from normal items.

Steve

[VioletSkye]

If it is bitscrambled, why even add a time stamp to it? And it doesn't use a random number seed (unless you are saying it should), it has a set code for the basic item and then the code for user changes on the item. As far as passing the address of the calling routine to the routine that generates drops all someone needs to do is get a dump from the game disc and softice it to see exactly what the drop routine is. Granted it would take more skill to decipher that but the whole process would be faster and more efficient to just use an item key. Also if you think about it, its the same exact idea I mentioned in that the game would be searching for a duplicate upon loading whether it is bit scrambled, encypted or both, it is still looking for that same code to decide if something needs to be deleted. Either way something needs to be implemented in future games.

I have to amend what I said before, I misinterpreted the random number seed comment. I see what you are saying now and that would probably be an excellent idea. I was thinking of your comment in terms of the code for the item, not the circumstances from which it dropped. You'll have to forgive me I'm exhausted from lack of sleep http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2003-04-24 18:42 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2003-04-24 18:49 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2003-04-24 19:09 ]</font>

[MonoxideChild]

Sonic Team does not do this due to pure lazyness, and the fact that it would take A LOT of blocks on a Gamecube memory card to do this. This always could happen for the True next PSO, and not a port.

Also, that's not how it was hacked. One of my friends is among the group of people who has hacked it. It has to do with figuring out the source code by loading the game onto a harddrive completely, than transferring it over to your PC. From there you edit the gamedata, than send it back to the Xbox where all the hacking begins. Once your done, all you need to do is turn the modchip off, and log onto Live. He said it only took him a total of 6 hours to completely hack the game.

Mods: If this post seems too revealing, than delete it.

[VioletSkye]

Actually it wouldn't involve much more memory space at all. And ummmm I believe I already pointed out how to hack it.

"all someone needs to do is get a dump from the game disc and softice it"

Maybe you missed that part of my post LOL http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[MonoxideChild]

That could always work as well, I was just referring to the original posters post. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif