Ep 5 balance update discussion

[Ryuhou]

The other topic is only about ranger...

We're getting increased power and duration for Guard Stance. I assume power means damage reduction but as long as it doesn't reduce tech damage (especially considering the weird formula that makes most tech based damage elemental damage instead) it will always suck, even if there was a point in using it).
The increased duration sounds weird, as a stance it should already have no duration limit.

WL gets its normal attacked buffed, like some other weapons. I don't see the point because of those getting a buff, only bow has any use for normal attacks and even then at the moment they aren't all that great. For bows maybe Sega wants to compensate for the pp issues by making normal attacks viable when low on pp (though you could always just switch to a gs and refill pp).

Vol Graptor changes sound like Sega wants discourage it's use, especially considering 9 PAs are getting buffed. Personally I think it's great cause at the moment Vol Graptor combos kinda suck, they are too situational and too often you need sacred skewer to actually hit, which devours pp like a blackhole and results in pretty low damage.
If we can just use pas directly for damage and don't need to rely on Vol Graptor, damage will be a lot higher.

Knuckle buff sounds nice, though considering how strong knuckles are already, I don't think there is actually any need for buffs (except a range buff for BHS).

The Chain changes sounds awesome. At the moment chain is very unreliable but does massive damage. A reliable lower damage version is far less frustrating.
Assuming the damage nerf will be the rumoured max of 999999 that still leaves chain as powerful bossing tool.
TMG attack gear accumulation buff sounds awesome. Though the root of the problem is gear depleting as fast as ep 2 sword gear.
It's one of the main bad "op when working perfectly and frustrating and weak if the ai rng doesn't comply" mechanics.

I also use Grim Barrage a lot (I could never play GuRa and using Standing Snipe) and want to use Elder Rebellion more for the range, so the buffs are great.

The Katana buffs are also nice, Tsukimi/Gekka pp reduction hopefully makes them able to compete with guren and sakura. DPS might be similar at the moment but pp consumption is just too high.
It's also nice to use more fast pas on braver.

Asagiri seems to be making a full comeback with such a huge buff. If the range would get buffed it could actually be an alternative to Guren.
And that Shunka buff...almost sounds like it will turn back into it's ep 2 state.
Fudo might be finally worth using with decreased pp cost.
Likewise Gravity Point might be good with the changes, at the moment it's mostly worthless cause by the time you are using the next pa the effect is already gone.
Banish arrow is also getting nerfed at last, like all OP burst damage multipliers.
And sadly Sharp Bomber is getting more expensive. No more spamming it I guess.

The non elemental boost for Elemental Stance seems to be Break SD for boots, but I wonder what it means for DBs. Certainly I hope it won't make it mandatory to change element for every single enemy, in mobbing eqs that can mean not even getting a hit in and it will definitely help with zondeeling enemies of more than one type.

[Rayden]

We're getting increased power and duration for Guard Stance. I assume power means damage reduction but as long as it doesn't reduce tech damage (especially considering the weird formula that makes most tech based damage elemental damage instead) it will always suck, even if there was a point in using it).
The increased duration sounds weird, as a stance it should already have no duration limit.

It doesn't say this on PSU Blog, but it's actually Guard Stance Advance that's getting buffed. You can see this on the JP site: http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=11331

Guard Stance Advance is the skill that currently gives +20% damage for 10 seconds after doing a Just Guard with Guard Stance. They're buffing the power and duration of that effect.

Considering that Fury Stance, Fury Combo, Fury S Up 1, and Fury S Up 2 stack to +45.53% damage and it works all the time, they'd need to buff Guard Stance Advance a lot for it to be competitive.

[final_attack]

For Hunter ... it's GuardStanceAdvance ...... the main-only part, that only activate on JG while under GuardStance.
Saw it on bumped, it says GuardStance ..... but PSO2 site already listed it as GuardStanceAdvance.
http://puu.sh/wiP3L/e96ba4d7ed.png
Power + duration up (currently damage +20%, 10s duration at Lv5)

That knuckle buff sounds fun though (damage up for BHS ...... wat ..... the .... heck XD )
Reduced PP for Heartless ..........
Damage Up : Ducking, Flicker, Pendulum, FlashThousand, Quake, Surprise, SlideUpper (and custom recipe power), BHS

I do wonder about Chain's cooldown ..... I wonder if they make it 45s or as far as 30s (which technically means permanent ChainFinish if managed to always get 100. 4 Gu party, let's go !!! XD ) ......

As for ElderRebellion ....... if it's at least a bit above SatAim (grounded), I'm happy. At least for some cases when I need to do ChainFinish while grounded, it's a nice option to have.

Buffed GrimBarrage is always a welcome. Though I mostly only use it for bossing or ChainFinish or some cases (still prefer DeadApproach due to speed) ..... if it can close the gap between SatAim - IF0 - SatAim for ChainFinish, I'm happy :D

Less PP for FudouKuchinashi is always welcome :D I'm a bit used to use it, due to stun effect for some annoying mobs :D

[Great Pan]

Gurren + Shunka = Ultimate Shing-shing Man. Glory to all katana users!

[[Ayumi]]

They're killing Gunner. Again.

[Altiea]

;3423724']They're killing Gunner. Again.

As a subclass, sure.

[echofaith]

Super happy for the Partizan change (:

[Altiea]

The balance changes look like SEGA pored over their game, and said:

"Hey, what does everyone use the most?"
"Compounds, Maron, Zanverse, Subclass Chaining, WB, and Vol/Banish."
"Good. Nerf them. Nerf them hard."
"And everything else?"
"Buff everything else except Techer and Bouncer they're fine but yeah, buff everything else."

[Asellus]

Balancing (updating) classes has been a norm with each episode. Rightfully so because new classes add new functions to existing classes, but hero doesn't sub either way. So, WTF? Maybe to engage players on the new class?
TBH, I might not play hero if fo/te can just compound every 20 seconds, just as well with the other PAs and skills that are getting shit on, and they knew that.

[GHNeko]

As a subclass, sure.

BrGu and FoGu should still be able to do still do silly damage without the 1.35x multi from chain finish skill.

Also Katana buffs make me and my FiBr really happy.

Maybe I can replace Guren with Shunka now and not deal with Guren killing Brave Stance all the time lol.

[Gaylar]

I'm not sure how I feel about that change to Guard Stance Advance, or why they're even bothering to begin with.

If they buff the duration and damage to something like 20s/30%, it might "work", but Fury is still a far, far better choice. But padding numbers isn't really gonna fix the underlying problems with Guard Stance to begin with.

It's not a survivalist stance when everyone has access to MH and Automate, even though you need it to get both, and it only gives Striking based resistances. If anything Fury does the job better because you can't get hit by something that's already dead (ok, Sparzyles and Vol/Quartz/Cats' death animations are a thing, but you get my point).

It's not a tank stance because Fury does a far better job at generating aggro due to its much higher and consistent DPS, and Hunter as a whole, regardless of stance, has War Cry.

So where the hell does it fall?

Now what would be interesting to me (within the bounds of what I believe SEGA would do) is if they did that, and THEN did one of the following:

- Make War Brave only apply during Guard Stance, effectively cutting out a source of PP regen and +%damage against groups of enemies for Fury users, thereby potentially cutting down on the number of people who actually use War Cry and allowing GS users to "tank" groups of enemies and reap the benefits from doing so (you'd likely still be weaker than someone using Fury, but with the GS Advance buff active and at least 5 nearby mobs it wouldn't be much). Fury would still be better for bosses. This probably wouldn't fly with some people though and I personally don't care for it much either, I don't see a point in harming Hunter's overall DPS, but it would in a sense make GS the "tank" stance, since you'd actually benefit somewhat more from drawing hate (or rather, just resetting it).

or

-Restrict Massive Hunter to Guard Stance-only. Though I'm sure this would piss off a metric fuckload of people.

Alternatively, dump GS Advance and give GS a hate mod that stacks with War Cry and add some kind of "increase damage based on aggro generated", up to a certain limit, that decays overtime.

But in all honesty, they're very likely not going to do any of this, they're more likely to just try and pad the damn thing with higher numbers and hope its fixed.

[BlueCast Boy]

I'm not sure how I feel about that change to Guard Stance Advance, or why they're even bothering to begin with.

If they buff the duration and damage to something like 20s/30%, it might "work", but Fury is still a far, far better choice. But padding numbers isn't really gonna fix the underlying problems with Guard Stance to begin with.

It's not a survivalist stance when everyone has access to MH and Automate, even though you need it to get both, and it only gives Striking based resistances. If anything Fury does the job better because you can't get hit by something that's already dead (ok, Sparzyle's and Vol/Quartz/Cats' death animations are a thing, but you get my point).

It's not a tank stance because Fury does a far better job at generating aggro due to its much higher and consistent DPS, and Hunter as a whole, regardless of stance, has War Cry.

So where the hell does it fall?

Now what would be interesting to me (within the bounds of what I believe SEGA would do) is if they did that, and THEN did one of the following:

- Make War Brave only apply during Guard Stance, effectively cutting out a source of PP regen and +%damage against groups of enemies for Fury users, thereby potentially cutting down on the number of people who actually use War Cry and allowing GS users to "tank" groups of enemies and reap the benefits from doing so (you'd likely still be weaker than someone using Fury, but with the GS Advance buff active and at least 5 nearby mobs it wouldn't be much). Fury would still be better for bosses. This probably wouldn't fly with some people though and I personally don't care for it much either, I don't see a point in harming Hunter's overall DPS, but it would in a sense make GS the "tank" stance, since you'd actually benefit somewhat more from drawing hate (or rather, just resetting it).

or

-Restrict Massive Hunter to Guard Stance-only. Though I'm sure this would piss off a metric fuckload of people.

Alternatively, dump GS Advance and give GS a hate mod that stacks with War Cry and add some kind of "increase damage based on aggro generated", up to a certain limit, that decays overtime.

But in all honesty, they're very likely not going to do any of this, they're more likely to just try and pad the damn thing with higher numbers and hope its fixed.

Either to fix Guard Stance Section is it give a new skill that focus on that stance or nerf Fury Stance which by receiving more damage by 10% at max...

Honestly its a decent balance adjustment but need more effort, I fear that all class would be inferior to Hero Class.

[Xaelouse]

They're bothering because they see every other melee class have a stronger more situational stance, so why not Hunter? They're basically gonna turn it into a stance that rewards you for playing Hunter main correctly on the right bosses.
You can easily fit guard stance+advance along with max fury on a build anyway for a tree dedicated to raid bosses.

[Ryuhou]

;3423724']They're killing Gunner. Again.
Wut? Gunner gets a huge buff. It's no longer the oneshot bosses subclass and on main it can no longer do absurd damage with chain but that is perfect, SEGA is cleaning up the classes and nerfing all the incredibly gamebreaking burst damage skills. Hopefully PSO2 endgame won't be as much of a pitiful joke anymore as it is at the moment.
Dealing millions and millions of damage with a single skill is dumb as hell when enemies have ho this low. In other online rpgs where players can do this kind of damage bosses and mobs have appropriate HP but not in PSO2, making it harder to kill bosses will greatly improve the game. We may even start to care about boss fights again.

TBH a real tank would ruin the game. Aggro is mandatory for dealing damage, you need aggro to deal damage and then you need to keep dealing it to keep aggro. If you have a really bad ping (like me) you get almost no aggro and most classes suffer a lot from it, fi is rarely getting a stance boost outside boss eqs (since enemies and players move around a lot, Wise Stance is just as unreliable as Brave Stance), all melee and Gu need to be close to deal damage so you have to continuously chase after enemies and bosses who always run off hutning other players.
Even Force suffers cause Ragrants becomes a lot less useful. And bosses that move fast and far like Chrome or Mother hands can easily dodge your burst damage, not to mention chain because incredibly unreliable and frustrating.
If we had a real tank class, everyone else in the mpa would ahve this problem and mpa damage would be far lower.

But what could be good for a tanky hunter would be high survivbaility and disregarding aggro management. Since a full tank is useless even without fucking up everyone's damage and a lack of Fury Stance means contributing very little to the mpa, what is needed is a good amount of higher survivbaility than what you can get with Fury Stance but still about half the damage boost. But at the moment tank skills cost a lot of SP and are only really good in bulk, but if you commit so many SP to them you can no longer afford any damage boost skills like JA boost. Unless this gets fixed Guard Stance Hunter will remain borderline leech.


Either to fix Guard Stance Section is it give a new skill that focus on that stance or nerf Fury Stance which by receiving more damage by 10% at max...

Honestly its a decent balance adjustment but need more effort, I fear that all class would be inferior to Hero Class.
Why?
So far nothing has suggested it will be truly op. As a new class it will of course be kind of op at first for the hype period and then get nerfed to be sort of balance once the hype died down, like all other classes.

[Kondibon]

They're bothering because they see every other melee class have a stronger more situational stance, so why not Hunter?You mean the stronger more situational stances people still barely ever use?

[isCasted]

I wish they removed or replaced stances entirely. They're more of an annoyance than anything else. Current skill tree system encourages speccing into once stance instead of switching between them, which is what's implied by the concept of stances. Stances themselves are boring conditional multipliers which don't change the way people play. Fighter's stances often act as a damage randomizer. Braver's stances force you to pick one based on weapons you want to use. Bouncer's stances are straight up nonsense and aren't even opposites.

Hunter's stances conceptually are the only ones that could potentially be fun to play with, because it'd be up to players to get creative with their use rather than have enemies dictate the "correct" one, but there still would have to be massive mechanical differences between the two (not just "boost damage by X%/reduce incoming damage by Y% but rather something that affects character interaction with enemies, like Automate/MH, even better - alter the way PAs work to some degree).

[Vatallus]

I want to play Hero, but because this is Sega the idea of Hero scares me. How are they going to screw up the skill tree? Is it going to be viable to play Sword and TMG Hero? Are we going to be forced to spec into only one only weapon type because of the skill tree?

I want to play Hero, but with how our skill trees have been I'm afraid they will screw with up too.

[final_attack]

I want to play Hero, but because this is Sega the idea of Hero scares me. How are they going to screw up the skill tree? Is it going to be viable to play Sword and TMG Hero? Are we going to be forced to spec into only one only weapon type because of the skill tree?

I want to play Hero, but with how our skill trees have been I'm afraid they will screw with up too.

We'll just have to see once it's implemented (I personally wanna try looking if setting up Tmg > Talis > Sword is viable) :D
I do wonder how the mechanic will be ..... Focus on 1, less performance for 2 others ....... or apply something that'll kinda balance / buff non-spec'ed attack stat ......
Since my main unit geared toward Gu use (R-Atk based) :<

Though I'm happy my main unit set used Apprentice and Modulator (thinking about Resta's heal power when playing GuHu, so, I chose those 2 ability to boost heal power). Too bad no Ability3 (chose Alter for HP boost).
But, shouldn't fell behind too much for other attack stats, since there's also unit's attack stats like SignRed and Union.

[Zephyrion]

I wish they removed or replaced stances entirely. They're more of an annoyance than anything else. Current skill tree system encourages speccing into once stance instead of switching between them, which is what's implied by the concept of stances. Stances themselves are boring conditional multipliers which don't change the way people play. Fighter's stances often act as a damage randomizer. Braver's stances force you to pick one based on weapons you want to use. Bouncer's stances are straight up nonsense and aren't even opposites.

Hunter's stances conceptually are the only ones that could potentially be fun to play with, because it'd be up to players to get creative with their use rather than have enemies dictate the "correct" one, but there still would have to be massive mechanical differences between the two (not just "boost damage by X%/reduce incoming damage by Y% but rather something that affects character interaction with enemies, like Automate/MH, even better - alter the way PAs work to some degree).

I actually like the stance system in itself. What bugs me is their inherent cost : for a vast majority of the classes, you have a lot of builds that make it impossible to get both stances at the same time, which is kind of hilarious considering their very concept is supposed to encourage switching them at will to face x situation. any given stance and substance skill should amount to 20 points maximum, and not 30 like it does for a vast majority of the cases.

[Kondibon]

I want to play Hero, but because this is Sega the idea of Hero scares me. How are they going to screw up the skill tree? Is it going to be viable to play Sword and TMG Hero? Are we going to be forced to spec into only one only weapon type because of the skill tree?

I want to play Hero, but with how our skill trees have been I'm afraid they will screw with up too.I'm actually kinda expecting it to end up like Su, where everything is viable depending on the situation. Other than Marron and Mellon Su had some of the best internal balance in the game as far as PA choices go. That might actually be part of why they don't want Hero to have a sub.


I actually like the stance system in itself. What bugs me is their inherent cost : for a vast majority of the classes, you have a lot of builds that make it impossible to get both stances at the same time, which is kind of hilarious considering their very concept is supposed to encourage switching them at will to face x situation. any given stance and substance skill should amount to 20 points maximum, and not 30 like it does for a vast majority of the cases.I forgot to respond to this, because I agree. I think the stances would be better if they were consolidated into single skills that gave both stances, and the stance ups just got removed. :/

[MightyHarken]

July 30th 2017 graphic of most played classes: 95% hero, 1%force, 1%ranger, 1%hunter, 1%bouncer, 1% gunner

[Selphea]

That assumes 95% of the playerbase bothered to level one S, R and T class to 75 :p

Still, not too happy that they decided to kill Gu as a burst damage sub yet keep the much more popular Hu sub untouched. Standardize the class skills so that other options are as attractive as Massive + Automate + Flash Guard and 76% damage

And I still want a no-BS 20PP Jet Boots PA :(

[GHNeko]

That assumes 95% of the playerbase bothered to level one S, R and T class to 75 :p

Still, not too happy that they decided to kill Gu as a burst damage sub yet keep the much more popular Hu sub untouched. Standardize the class skills so that other options are as attractive as Massive + Automate + Flash Guard and 76% damage

And I still want a no-BS 20PP Jet Boots PA :(

Well they're targetting burst damage and Hu sub is not really known for burst damage lol.

[Moffen]

July 30th 2017 graphic of most played classes: 95% hero, 1%force, 1%ranger, 1%hunter, 1%bouncer, 1% gunner

I dont think many people will have
-S/R/T atk classes at 75
-Upgraded and ready to use 13*/14* Sword/Tmg/Talis
-the will to move away from automate/iron will
-Good multi-stat units
-a /possible/ dex mag

i doubt it'll be as popular as everyone things and will just feel like any old class eventually.

though I am maining the hell out of it lmao

[MightyHarken]

I dont think many people will have
-S/R/T atk classes at 75
-Upgraded and ready to use 13*/14* Sword/Tmg/Talis
-the will to move away from automate/iron will
-Good multi-stat units
-a /possible/ dex mag

i doubt it'll be as popular as everyone things and will just feel like any old class eventually.

though I am maining the hell out of it lmao

It´s not hard to level up to 75 some classes, also; You forget that you only need Fi,Hu,Bo to use the sword with Hero class.

[MightyHarken]

[QUOTE=Moffen;3423833 though I am maining the hell out of it lmao[/QUOTE]
You and the 95% of the other players, lol

[[Ayumi]]

I dont think many people will have
-S/R/T atk classes at 75
-Upgraded and ready to use 13*/14* Sword/Tmg/Talis
-the will to move away from automate/iron will
-Good multi-stat units
-a /possible/ dex mag

i doubt it'll be as popular as everyone things and will just feel like any old class eventually.

though I am maining the hell out of it lmao

While I got all classes level 75 long before they implemented it, I would say the majority got all of their classes to level 75 since a year or 2 ago.

When did they added those level 75 account buffs?

[Hysteria1987]

July 30th 2017 graphic of most played classes: 95% hero, 1%force, 1%ranger, 1%hunter, 1%bouncer, 1% gunnerNo Braver? Not buying it! :P

SHING SHING SHING SHING SHING



Anyways I hope the Zandion buff is nice and big because that's a really cool compound. Shame the elements don't line up with many bosses but I'd like to use it more.

Bit wary about the respeccing of FO/TE trees to allow multiple elements in the one tree... Mastery 2 is now 5 levels instead of 10. Might not be enough for me personally to cram 2 elements into a FO tree, but I'll at least muck around with the skill simulator - but I hope that the power at level 5 is at least the same as it was at lv10...

[ralf542]

It´s not hard to level up to 75 some classes, also; You forget that you only need Fi,Hu,Bo to use the sword with Hero class.

ELI5. Please.

[morkie]

any information, if HERO can't do old EQ?
cause of required sub?

[Hysteria1987]

any information, if HERO can't do old EQ?
cause of required sub?I can't confirm if true or not but I seem to recall hearing Hero has a level cap of 30, so maybe there'll be different rules for it, and lv30 is equivalent in power to 80 of other classes. Maybe.

Oooor maybe we'll be stuck in hardmode.

Still, they're calling this the first 'advanced' class so it wouldn't surprise me if new rules were made.

[AzurEnd]

I can't confirm if true or not but I seem to recall hearing Hero has a level cap of 30, so maybe there'll be different rules for it, and lv30 is equivalent in power to 80 of other classes. Maybe.

Oooor maybe we'll be stuck in hardmode.

Still, they're calling this the first 'advanced' class so it wouldn't surprise me if new rules were made.

Hero's initial cap is Lv30, but if you notice in the preview video the person was Lv75 when fighting those bosses so chances are we are gonna have to hop through a lot of hoops to unlock Lv75. Who knows maybe they might tie hero progression to the Story Board for Ep5, doubt it though.

[Dark Emerald EXE]

;3423839']While I got all classes level 75 long before they implemented it, I would say the majority got all of their classes to level 75 since a year or 2 ago.



I think I had all classes prior to SU to 75 before Ep4 atleast once.

[Alenoir]

July 30th 2017 graphic of most played classes: 95% hero, 1%force, 1%ranger, 1%hunter, 1%bouncer, 1% gunner

Doubt it. Still gotta get our Gracia/Yamato rematch! Also RIP FI BR TE.

[Ryuhou]

I wish they removed or replaced stances entirely. They're more of an annoyance than anything else. Current skill tree system encourages speccing into once stance instead of switching between them, which is what's implied by the concept of stances. Stances themselves are boring conditional multipliers which don't change the way people play. Fighter's stances often act as a damage randomizer. Braver's stances force you to pick one based on weapons you want to use. Bouncer's stances are straight up nonsense and aren't even opposites.

Hunter's stances conceptually are the only ones that could potentially be fun to play with, because it'd be up to players to get creative with their use rather than have enemies dictate the "correct" one, but there still would have to be massive mechanical differences between the two (not just "boost damage by X%/reduce incoming damage by Y% but rather something that affects character interaction with enemies, like Automate/MH, even better - alter the way PAs work to some degree).
We can never stance dance, not possible. As such it's necessary you don't need to change them often.
Stance dance would require 4 extra buttons (main and subclass) you could use at time time, like switching color in Ikaruga. That is not only impossibler but also it is the main mechanic for an entire game to switch between 2 options. Having 4 ontop of the entire rest of the is unfeasible unless you are hardcore MLG.
...wait what? WTF? "Stances themselves are boring conditional multipliers which don't change the way people play"? I assume your damage sucks bad. Cause virtually everyone else plays to maximize the massive damage multiplier from stances, especially on fi.
Stances dictate how you play, that's why fi stances are so unbelievably bad as the rely almost entirely on ping.


I want to play Hero, but because this is Sega the idea of Hero scares me. How are they going to screw up the skill tree? Is it going to be viable to play Sword and TMG Hero? Are we going to be forced to spec into only one only weapon type because of the skill tree?

I want to play Hero, but with how our skill trees have been I'm afraid they will screw with up too.
I really doubt there will much speccing overall. Sure there will be weapon related skills but those costing so many SP that not all classes will be good would defeat the entire purpose of the class and the much advertised cross weapon combos, so I highly doubt it's going to be a problem


That assumes 95% of the playerbase bothered to level one S, R and T class to 75 :p

Still, not too happy that they decided to kill Gu as a burst damage sub yet keep the much more popular Hu sub untouched. Standardize the class skills so that other options are as attractive as Massive + Automate + Flash Guard and 76% damage

And I still want a no-BS 20PP Jet Boots PA :(

Gu was really not killed at all. Like all other burst damage it was just nerfed so it is no longer gamebreaking. We will now get a far better PSO2 that isn't just mindless rushing after drops but where boss battles are actually fun for a change. And chain was buffed, not nerfed. OP damage with chain requires a more controlled environment than usual and bosses like deus prevent long chains anyway except in vary rare situations. So for most people and situations it's a pure buff because they would not have done OP damage anyway. Instead it's now far more reliable to use chains, raising damage in many situations.

Also, hu got its burst damage nerfed like everyone else. Vol Graptor is weaker and more expensive now. Probably no longer worth it in many situations cause it eats pp so fast you do more damage spamming pas.

[isCasted]

...wait what? WTF? "Stances themselves are boring conditional multipliers which don't change the way people play"? I assume your damage sucks bad. Cause virtually everyone else plays to maximize the massive damage multiplier from stances, especially on fi.
Stances dictate how you play, that's why fi stances are so unbelievably bad as the rely almost entirely on ping.
While my wording in that part was poor (should've said something like "don't grant additional functionality to player characters"), you could have really inferred the intended meaning from the rest of my post. Stances dictating the way class should be played is not good. Character progression is supposed to expand general number of viable options, not limit it.

And no, Fighter's stances are not terrible because of ping, because positioning is tracked by client and not server. Fighter's stances are terrible, because:
1) whether something is going to face you with their front or back is heavily affected by other players in MPA. Mobs that come in packs often have their aggro divided between multiple players, so you can't secure maximum damage on all of them. Enemies also like to run away while you are trying to reposition yourself, so you can spend more time stepping than actually attacking. None of that is a player, yet he's getting punished for it;
2) some enemies just love to suddenly turn around or dash through you. So you often have to abandon everything and reposition. It breaks the flow of the combat. Don't forget that most enemy patterns are random too, so, again, random punishment for no fault of player;
3) for some enemies front and back are defined completely fucking arbitrarily. For Elder being closer to him means you have to use Wise, whereas for PD it's Brave. Apos during pillar phase requires different stances for different pillars, even though all pillars face towards the arena center in exact same way (to add to the confusion, main body is rotating all this time). Double requires different stances for different legs, even though legs are independent objects in the way they act; but during gate attack you suddenly have to use WISE stance for all legs, even though everything is clearly facing you (unless you explain this attack as Double shitting out gates on us). When Zeshrayda shows its back, its back is considered front. The list just goes on and on.


We can never stance dance, not possible. As such it's necessary you don't need to change them often.
Stance dance would require 4 extra buttons (main and subclass) you could use at time time, like switching color in Ikaruga. That is not only impossibler but also it is the main mechanic for an entire game to switch between 2 options. Having 4 ontop of the entire rest of the is unfeasible unless you are hardcore MLG.
If stance dancing can't be viable, stances have to go period. The mechanic of having to press a button when you load into campship is neither engaging nor meaningful. In their current state it's a skill point dump that takes up subpalette space.

[Zephyrion]

While my wording in that part was poor (should've said something like "don't grant additional functionality to player characters"), you could have really inferred the intended meaning from the rest of my post. Stances dictating the way class should be played is not good. Character progression is supposed to expand general number of viable options, not limit it.

And no, Fighter's stances are not terrible because of ping, because positioning is tracked by client and not server. Fighter's stances are terrible, because:
1) whether something is going to face you with their front or back is heavily affected by other players in MPA. Mobs that come in packs often have their aggro divided between multiple players, so you can't secure maximum damage on all of them. Enemies also like to run away while you are trying to reposition yourself, so you can spend more time stepping than actually attacking. None of that is a player, yet he's getting punished for it;
2) some enemies just love to suddenly turn around or dash through you. So you often have to abandon everything and reposition. It breaks the flow of the combat. Don't forget that most enemy patterns are random too, so, again, random punishment for no fault of player;
3) for some enemies front and back are defined completely fucking arbitrarily. For Elder being closer to him means you have to use Wise, whereas for PD it's Brave. Apos during pillar phase requires different stances for different pillars, even though all pillars face towards the arena center in exact same way (to add to the confusion, main body is rotating all this time). Double requires different stances for different legs, even though legs are independent objects in the way they act; but during gate attack you suddenly have to use WISE stance for all legs, even though everything is clearly facing you (unless you explain this attack as Double shitting out gates on us). When Zeshrayda shows its back, its back is considered front. The list just goes on and on.


If stance dancing can't be viable, stances have to go period. The mechanic of having to press a button when you load into campship is neither engaging nor meaningful. In their current state it's a skill point dump that takes up subpalette space.

Stance dance being not viable... what ?
it works perfectly fine be it on keyboard or pad unless your subpalette is seriously wonky : just press one or the other is that complicated ??
Also I completely disagree with 1 and 2 for FI stances and about stances in general because

1 lol...Chaos riser ? and even if you bar that FI isn't a mobbing specialist anyway (while still being able to get relatively good damage in that regard)
2 stuff doesn't turn around that much unless they are attacking, and if you are on LB, you're going to try and dodge that (since once they finish whatever twirl/dance, they should end up facing you again). Also as FI you should have aggro on you a good amount of the time. as the 'Brave" frontliner you are

I whole-heartedly agree with 3, but this is more SEGA not being coherent than an issue with how stances themselves are designed really

And stances are a limitation but it's a fun limitation. it's a way to encourage various playstyles, make sub-classing more varied and also give classes their identity... unless you want everyone to have fully unconditional damage which is not only boring as hell but detrimental to balance. No stance classes have tons of mechanics that give them depth, and stance is what gives melee classes their depth

Again just opinions. I can understand your feelings, but stances have a lot going for them. If we were to get rid of them, I'd hope for a serious re-work to make up for the lost depth

[Altiea]

My problem with stance dancing is that it has to play an animation when you activate Stances, which kinda breaks the flow of combat. I wish they would just use quick animations like Showtime and Wand Lovers so I wouldn't have to stop what I'm doing to turn on Break Stance when Zephyros summons serpent heads again.

[Rayden]

I've always thought Fighter's stances should just be passive skills. I see no reason to have to manually switch between them. It's just a frustrating mechanic, and it takes up space on the subpalette as well.

I suppose Bouncer's stances could be passive as well, but I don't care as much in that case.

[Zephyrion]

My problem with stance dancing is that it has to play an animation when you activate Stances, which kinda breaks the flow of combat. I wish they would just use quick animations like Showtime and Wand Lovers so I wouldn't have to stop what I'm doing to turn on Break Stance when Zephyros summons serpent heads again.

That would actually a great way of keeping the stances while not killing literally every build involving dual stances.


I've always thought Fighter's stances should just be passive skills. I see no reason to have to manually switch between them. It's just a frustrating mechanic, and it takes up space on the subpalette as well.

I suppose Bouncer's stances could be passive as well, but I don't care as much in that case.

Stances being a passive would only work for only single stance builds... which would completely kill any subclass that isn't HU sub except for tech classes (which are already the least played mind you). Stances are meant to be active skills in the first place. It's just that balancing and implementing issues make some melee users think stances are passive multipliers (no thanks for FI,HU and BR not even having the leeway to get both stances in the first place for most builds), therefore giving the feeling it's a penance to turn them on

There would be many solutions to that problem but making them passive skills is clearly one of the worst ones, since it would mean the death of an absurd amount of builds for the sake of having your cherished class do things better and smoother. I can understand the bias, but in no way can I approve of it in a "health and proper balancing of the game" perspective. Making stance activation smoother is something I'd definitely approve of on the other hand

[Selphea]

Gu was really not killed at all. Like all other burst damage it was just nerfed so it is no longer gamebreaking. We will now get a far better PSO2 that isn't just mindless rushing after drops but where boss battles are actually fun for a change. And chain was buffed, not nerfed. OP damage with chain requires a more controlled environment than usual and bosses like deus prevent long chains anyway except in vary rare situations. So for most people and situations it's a pure buff because they would not have done OP damage anyway. Instead it's now far more reliable to use chains, raising damage in many situations.

Also, hu got its burst damage nerfed like everyone else. Vol Graptor is weaker and more expensive now. Probably no longer worth it in many situations cause it eats pp so fast you do more damage spamming pas.

Gu wasn't killed. As you quoted, Gu as a burst damage sub was killed even though Hu as a subclass is much more popular.


Well they're targetting burst damage and Hu sub is not really known for burst damage lol.

It's not really known for burst but I'd say Fury-JA-Massive-Automate-Flash Guard creates more problems considering they had to add heal jamming just to try and balance it.

[Rayden]

Stances being a passive would only work for only single stance builds..

Passive stances would work perfectly fine for Fighter. Brave Stance gives +50% damage from the front. Wise Stance gives +75.5% damage from the back. There's no conflict there and they could both work simultaneously as passive skills without you having to manually switch.

[Selphea]

It'd kill TMG Stance Up though :wacko:

[vantpers]

Yeah let's just make Fighter stances into passives so in the end it's average stance with 1.5 damage bonus + backstab bonus essentially making Fighter skills barely any more conditional than Fury.

[Moffen]

Yeah let's just make Fighter stances into passives so in the end it's average stance with 1.5 damage bonus + backstab bonus essentially making Fighter skills barely any more conditional than Fury.

Maybe people will finally stop subbing Hu.
About time lmao.

[IWinToLose]

It looks like Summoner is getting neutered. I suppose it was overdue but not having anything to come close to Maron's DPS will make the class completely noncompetitive. Also, what's the point of Techer after the patch? Shifta strike and some HP while sacrificing most of their DPS? It seems like an almost useless class after 7/26. TeSu's are literal garbage experiencing nerfs to their only two tools, Maron and Zanverse.

Barring how broken Hero might be, I think Fighter will be king after the balance patch. They are currently easily 2nd best after Fo and they are only receiving buffs while Fo is getting wrecked.

[Zephyrion]

Yeah let's just make Fighter stances into passives so in the end it's average stance with 1.5 damage bonus + backstab bonus essentially making Fighter skills barely any more conditional than Fury.

People seem to forget one little detail....FI main is already one of the best classes around (even tho it's hard to leverage it's hardly an excuse to downplay how good it is) even with the "instability" stances bring to it. If it had access to both stances at ONCE, it would not only make it stupidly strong, but also kinda braindead. if you want to just do damage without caring about positioning, you have plenty of other classes that do that... Please don't make FI a copy-paste of other classes and buff it even more.

Brave/wise are also the highest multipliers around after Fury...making these stances as a passive would kill any sub that isn't FI or HU, even if other melee classes had stances as a passive skill (average/weak and Element/Break would have literally no way to compete if FI stances weren't limited)... And I honestly don't think making every sub as broken and braindead as HU sub is a better balancing policy.


It looks like Summoner is getting neutered. I suppose it was overdue but not having anything to come close to Maron's DPS will make the class completely noncompetitive. Also, what's the point of Techer after the patch? Shifta strike and some HP while sacrificing most of their DPS? It seems like an almost useless class after 7/26. TeSu's are literal garbage experiencing nerfs to their only two tools, Maron and Zanverse.

Barring how broken Hero might be, I think Fighter will be king after the balance patch. They are currently easily 2nd best after Fo and they are only receiving buffs while Fo is getting wrecked.

That's...completely wrong when it comes to SU. Most pets have equal or even superior DPS potential to most other weapons in the game, Aero Spiral and Synchro are still there for damage bursts during stuns.

Also Melon being buffed means Marron and Melon will finally co-exist, instead of Marron stealing its niche and making it useless (Melon will still only need 3 hits to charge and have better damage for melon strike, making it your go-to choice for quick damage soak and burst, while marron will be kept for really hectic situations where it can absorb a lot of hits very quickly, stuff like apprentice/Loser hand 3rd phase on Mother)

Marron was so overpowered that it completely overshadowed how decent other pets are. SU after patch will just become a class with more finesse and will be more in line with other classes. Hopefully people will start looking at other pets and see that despite them no having holy Marron's stupid damage output, a few of them are really good enough to make SU decent

Yeah for TE, though, most of the tools it used from subclasses getting nerfed + compound/zanverse nerf will hit it pretty hard.

[GHNeko]

My problem with stance dancing is that it has to play an animation when you activate Stances, which kinda breaks the flow of combat. I wish they would just use quick animations like Showtime and Wand Lovers so I wouldn't have to stop what I'm doing to turn on Break Stance when Zephyros summons serpent heads again.

As a FiBouser who has to turn on 4-5 actives (LB, PBF, EPPRF, CF, PPC Ring), not counting stances,just to get maximum potential damage output...

as well as a GuFi user who has to deal with positioning and cant swap stances in mid-air...

I really wish the animation for turning on stances and actives was not only shorter (or non-existent like showtime) but maintained height so i dont have to drop like a rock just to reup an active when im fighting in the air. x_x





It's not really known for burst but I'd say Fury-JA-Massive-Automate-Flash Guard creates more problems considering they had to add heal jamming just to try and balance it.

:thonk:

Good point. Fair enough.

[IWinToLose]

That's...completely wrong when it comes to SU. Most pets have equal or even superior DPS potential to most other weapons in the game, Aero Spiral and Synchro are still there for damage bursts during stuns.

Also Melon being buffed means Marron and Melon will finally co-exist, instead of Marron stealing its niche and making it useless (Melon will still only need 3 hits to charge and have better damage for melon strike, making it your go-to choice for quick damage soak and burst, while marron will be kept for really hectic situations where it can absorb a lot of hits very quickly, stuff like apprentice/Loser hand 3rd phase on Mother)

The problem with Melon is that fully charged, it only does 30% more DPS than Maron Break. Melon is simply not a viable alternative to Maron and you probably have better options like Synchro and Aero. It all depends on how much they neuter Maron. If Maron does 66%+ of its current damage, it will still be viable. Anything lower and Su will struggle to solo Deus Gracia.

As for the other pets, they really don't compare to most other weapons. Sure they're probably better than Jetboots, but they're probably worse than Rifles. This of course includes all the other pets besides Maron and is assuming the target you're attacking is not AFK the whole match (Aero Spiral is undeniably good DPS). I don't think it's possible to even come close to soloing Gracia without Maron and that is where I believe the benchmark for balance should be when it comes to "high dps" classes.

[Rayden]

People seem to forget one little detail....FI main is already one of the best classes around (even tho it's hard to leverage it's hardly an excuse to downplay how good it is) even with the "instability" stances bring to it. If it had access to both stances at ONCE, it would not only make it stupidly strong, but also kinda braindead. if you want to just do damage without caring about positioning, you have plenty of other classes that do that...

You'd still have to actually spend the skill points on the skills though. Do you actually have both Brave and Wise on your Fighter main tree? Most people don't, because there aren't enough points for Wise after getting Brave, Brave Up, Brave Critical, Critical Strike, Limit Break, TAJA, TAJAPPS, PP Slayer, the Crazy skills, and so on.

The only thing making them passive would do is eliminate the RNG component if you DO actually have both skills, and save you having to manually switch.

It would make Fighter better and more reliable as a sub (but still not as good as Hunter), which is something it needs. It wouldn't really affect Fighter main at all, or if it does, it would be by making other options attractive rather than simply buffing it.

[Zephyrion]

You'd still have to actually spend the skill points on the skills though. Do you actually have both Brave and Wise on your Fighter main tree? Most people don't, because there aren't enough points for Wise after getting Brave, Brave Up, Brave Critical, Critical Strike, Limit Break, TAJA, TAJAPPS, PP Slayer, the Crazy skills, and so on.

The only thing making them passive would do is eliminate the RNG component if you DO actually have both skills, and save you having to manually switch.

It would make Fighter better and more reliable as a sub (but still not as good as Hunter), which is something it needs. It wouldn't really affect Fighter main at all, or if it does, it would be by making other options attractive rather than simply buffing it.

It would still become a system change that would bring tons of incoherences. either you do that with FI alone, meaning that FI would break the "stance rule" from melee classes or you do that for every melee classes which would create utterly stupid situations (weak points would trigger both average/weak stance, breakables would trigger both element/break if weap is the right element and so on)

Such a change would bring tons of problems along with it, all for the sake of having the comfort and privilege of not having to press a button. I don't think it's sound reasoning at all

also people massively dowplay the strength of FI as a sub for non-melee classes. It's already arguably second best pick for FO and GU, pretty strong with TE, and with damage cap, currently best SU sub, and the only thing keeping it to reasonable levels is stance choice and switching.

I'm not saying the idea itself is terrible, but it entails tons of fundamental issues and would imply tons of system rework, only for the sake of dealing with situational inconsistencies and getting rid of a button press. I can agree SEGA can be lazy, but I wouldn't want to deal with so much problems for what is merely a "quality of life" thing, especially when there are tons of simpler and better solutions out there that don't involve re-doing everything or giving FI unique privileges.



The problem with Melon is that fully charged, it only does 30% more DPS than Maron Break. Melon is simply not a viable alternative to Maron and you probably have better options like Synchro and Aero. It all depends on how much they neuter Maron. If Maron does 66%+ of its current damage, it will still be viable. Anything lower and Su will struggle to solo Deus Gracia.

As for the other pets, they really don't compare to most other weapons. Sure they're probably better than Jetboots, but they're probably worse than Rifles. This of course includes all the other pets besides Maron and is assuming the target you're attacking is not AFK the whole match (Aero Spiral is undeniably good DPS). I don't think it's possible to even come close to soloing Gracia without Maron and that is where I believe the benchmark for balance should be when it comes to "high dps" classes.

Marron changes won't make it bad. It just boils down to it needing max charge and more hits to charge, which means you'll have to actually assess the situation and know when to use other pets.

While I agree Melon is currently underwhelming, it sure is getting buffed, and if that buff is substantial enough, it could fit as a DPS pet in situations where Marron can't build charges quick enough.

...And when most bosses aren't attacking, they're probably in some sort of stun, which means synchro and Aero get to shine. Naturally other pets don't have nearly enough DPS, but they are meant for mobbing, so if we're talking bosses, they are kinda irrelevant

Marron nerf sure is a substantial hit for SU, but saying the class is "neutered" is clearly an overstatement. I honestly think it will just make the class not default to Marron almost all the time, which is a good thing. We'll have to see how the buffs and nerf pan out at the end of the day, but I don't see SU becoming useless, even with Marron nerfs

[vantpers]

PP Slayer nowadays is just weak and barely worth getting. Drop Brave crit and you can easily go 10/10 LB and full Wise.

The point of having stance switch is so that you commit yourself to one stance. For example you will lose damage if you want to switch to wise on a something like 4 second opening mid combo, so you're stuck with your second best option, which is trying to stay in front of the enemy with Brave. If you make it automatic it's a big damage buff because you don't care in the slightest about positioning and the usual situation where your attack accidentally slips you past enemy in Brave changes from 1.0 multiplier to 1.75. Now imagine mobbing where mobs are spastic and might not want to all turn in your direction.

It would be a damage buff plain and simple.

[IWinToLose]

Marron changes won't make it bad. It just boils down to it needing max charge and more hits to charge, which means you'll have to actually assess the situation and know when to use other pets.

While I agree Melon is currently underwhelming, it sure is getting buffed, and if that buff is substantial enough, it could fit as a DPS pet in situations where Marron can't build charges quick enough.

...And when most bosses aren't attacking, they're probably in some sort of stun, which means synchro and Aero get to shine. Naturally other pets don't have nearly enough DPS, but they are meant for mobbing, so if we're talking bosses, they are kinda irrelevant

Marron nerf sure is a substantial hit for SU, but saying the class is "neutered" is clearly an overstatement. I honestly think it will just make the class not default to Marron almost all the time, which is a good thing. We'll have to see how the buffs and nerf pan out at the end of the day, but I don't see SU becoming useless, even with Marron nerfs

Pets have high "sheet dps" compared to other weapons and PA's largely because of SU's low multipliers. Also, most enemies are far more resistant to pet damage than melee, tech, and ranged.

It depends on if they increase Melon's damage output. From what I saw, they are only making Melon not blow up on the Summoner or something, not actually increasing its damage. If they leave Melon's numbers as they are now, Melon is still a bad pet and you are much better off using Maron as long as the possibility of getting hit still exists. Like I said, Melon Strike, fully charged, only does 30% more DPS than Maron Break and we all know that Maron Break is horrible in comparison to other weapons. Also, more hits on Maron to fully charge it will make it an incredibly situational pet. Not even Nyau's fury can reliably charge Maron if it needs 9 hits to charge lol.

After the nerfs, Force will still be able to reliably solo Deus. After the buffs, Fighter will probably be able to solo Deus with Knuckles in record time. Depending on the nerfs to Maron and assuming no buffs in damage to Melon, Summoner will not be able to solo Deus unless you have godly gear and seriously godlike skill. Considering Maron makes up 80% of a Summoner's damage and using any other pet instead of Maron will result in at best 1/3 of Maron's damage, it will be incredibly difficult to make up for that lost damage. No amount of innovation or 30% boosted Maron Breaks (Melon Strike) will make up for 80% of Summoner's damage.

I encourage nerfing Maron, but the reality is that the other pets simply pale in comparison to things like Ragrants/Gimegid, TD, DS, DB, TMG, Partizan, Bow, Sword, Katana, and Rifle. Granted, I do think the other pets are superior to Gunslash, JB, Wand Whacking, and that whip weapon. However, without buffs to the other pets, the class is dead. There is simply no reason to use pets for damage when everything else I listed performs better in nearly all situations. What's amazing to me is that while I agree that Maron deserved a nerf, Maron is still entirely inferior to both TD and DS (except with CT on Mother). Not only are these two weapons entirely untouched, but Knuckles are likely to outperform them knowing SEGA's balancing record.

I guess only time will tell. I am personally planning on abandoning the class and either jumping onto the Hero bandwagon or the Fighter bandwagon.

[Alenoir]

The problem with Melon is that fully charged, it only does 30% more DPS than Maron Break. Melon is simply not a viable alternative to Maron and you probably have better options like Synchro and Aero. It all depends on how much they neuter Maron. If Maron does 66%+ of its current damage, it will still be viable. Anything lower and Su will struggle to solo Deus Gracia.
What? Fully charged, Melon Strike does 10% of the damage as a fully charged Maron Strike per hit. The point is, you can throw said melon about 10 times to do the same damage as a maron. The problem with melon is its absolutely horrible HP pool. Someone claims it can tank good, I tried it on Gracia during DPS check. No can do.

Maron is not getting a damage nerf at max for Strike. It's getting a nerf for the first stage of being blown up.

PS: lrn2Redran

[Moffen]

PP Slayer nowadays is just weak nowadays and barely worth getting. Drop Brave crit and you can easily go 10/10 LB and full Wise

Probably the daftest thing I've heard all week.

[vantpers]

Probably the daftest thing I've heard all week.
That's a wonderful opinion

[IWinToLose]

What? Fully charged, Melon Strike does 10% of the damage as a fully charged Maron Strike per hit. The point is, you can throw said melon about 10 times to do the same damage as a maron. The problem with melon is its absolutely horrible HP pool. Someone claims it can tank good, I tried it on Gracia during DPS check. No can do.

Maron is not getting a damage nerf at max for Strike. It's getting a nerf for the first stage of being blown up.

PS: lrn2Redran

I don't think you understand the concept of DPS. DPS is how much damage you do per second. Sure throwing Melon 10 times will allow you to do the same damage as one Maron Strike. However, 10 Melon tosses takes 590 frames, almost 10 seconds. In that same amount of time spent throwing Melon, you could've chosen a higher DPS option like Synchro or Aero or a less conditional DPS option like Redran.

The DPS of a charged Melon is only 30% higher than spamming Maron Break. We all know how much of a Summoner's DPS is made up of Maron Break and how much is made of Maron Strike. The situations you would use Melon Strike are similar to the situations you would use Maron Break or even Aero Spiral or Synchro. Now I will concede that Melon Strike has a mechanical advantage over Aero and Maron Break when used against a moving target that doesn't stagger you and wherein you're not required to move (you can also bypass staggering problem with Massive Hunter). Melon Strike also has reasonable AOE for mobbing.

Also, I know how to play Summoner and how to use Redran. I have successfully solo'ed Deus Gracia so I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to DPS options for Summoner.

PS: lrn2knowthedifferencebetweenDPSandrawDamage

[Ryuhou]

And no, Fighter's stances are not terrible because of ping, because positioning is tracked by client and not server.
Don't talk about something you don't understand, seriously. I am playing with a crippling ping and half the mechanics fail because of it, even using a latency fix.
I can get almost no aggro so enemies never face me, the only reliable way to get stance boost on fi. They face random other players and so neither stance is even remotely reliable and I lose a lot of damage. And since bosses run after other players only, I rarely can finish a chain unless I use rifle and bosses even move out of kc range pretty often. Even warcry almost never works for me.
Enemy aggro ignores you if you have a bad ping and they find a target before your client can respond.
Hell, I cannot even do Funji in cq because of this.

[isCasted]

Dude, you were talking about stances, you never mentioned aggro or anything in your post. Nothing in your post indicated that that's what you meant. Also, I've been playing for almost 4 years with 350 ping, but it's not like it's related to the topic at hand.

[Zorak000]

honestly the /hu vs /fi stuff would be settled if they just deleted JA Bonus 2.

though that would stink for ra/hu and gu/hu

EDIT: and the idea of stances becoming passives and both on at the same time breaks down with bouncer. right now things work because you could do elemental boots then swap for break with blades, but if they were both on that would basically require you to have a blade for each place you plan on taking it into, and messes up on non-elemental breakables like darker walls and yamato's guns. sure those might not be HUGE problems but eh they might use more non-elemental destructables

[FireswordRus]

Fi stances horrible only on big bosses like Castle. I am play a lot (~1.5-2 years) as Gu/Fi, Fo/Fi and dont seen any problems. i am Like TAJA it is fun making combo. i am try all clases with Fi sub and all them are good.

[[Ayumi]]

Fi stances horrible only on big bosses like Castle. I am play a lot (~1.5-2 years) as Gu/Fi, Fo/Fi and dont seen any problems. i am Like TAJA it is fun making combo. i am try all clases with Fi sub and all them are good.

But you've always been a Fighter fanatic. So isn't that a bit bias from you though, lol?

[GHNeko]

PP Slayer nowadays is just weak and barely worth getting. Drop Brave crit and you can easily go 10/10 LB and full Wise.

????????????????

what????

it's anything but weak and barely worth getting.

200 atk is the difference between Gix Sword and OT Seiga Sword. And Sword is the weapon that sees the least gains out of all the melee weapons. For a weapon class like TD or DS, 200 extra attack is substantially more meaningful and has a pretty big impact on your damage.

not to mention it's one of the easiest stat boosts of Fi tree to keep active with little to no risk. it's basically one of the most non-conditional stat ups in the game lmao.

i really dont know how you could arrive to the conclusion that PP Slayer is weak.

[vantpers]

????????????????

what????

it's anything but weak and barely worth getting.

200 atk is the difference between Gix Sword and OT Seiga Sword. And Sword is the weapon that sees the least gains out of all the melee weapons. For a weapon class like TD or DS, 200 extra attack is substantially more meaningful and has a pretty big impact on your damage.

not to mention it's one of the easiest stat boosts of Fi tree to keep active with little to no risk. it's basically one of the most non-conditional stat ups in the game lmao.

i really dont know how you could arrive to the conclusion that PP Slayer is weak.
Except if you're comparing attack on weapons you need to take element into account. PP Slayer on the other hand is 200 attack. What's worse with every passing month 200 attack is getting worth less and less. Now I would say it's somewhere between 4-5% damage boost depending on what you use. You also have to dump 13SP and on it and only get use out of Deadline as a Fighter. That puts it as pretty expensive with little gain. And it still has a conditional attached to itself, and for example it will always turn off for a while after LB or won't work on your first opening strikes because your PP is still at near max.

PP Slayer really is a tertiary modifier on Fighter you take because all your other DPS options are at about the same efficiency of 10SP per 4% damage or situational like Chase that you won't be able to use on any boss, or it's just Wise that is hit and miss depending on the boss. Of course if you could get Wise as passive backstab bonus that turns on every time you get out of Brave that would a different talk it would totally eclipse any merits of conditional 4% damage boost.

[ralf542]

Except if you're comparing attack on weapons you need to take element into account. PP Slayer on the other hand is 200 attack. What's worse with every passing month 200 attack is getting worth less and less. Now I would say it's somewhere between 4-5% damage boost depending on what you use. You also have to dump 13SP and on it and only get use out of Deadline as a Fighter. That puts it as pretty expensive with little gain. And it still has a conditional attached to itself, and for example it will always turn off for a while after LB or won't work on your first opening strikes because your PP is still at near max.

PP Slayer really is a tertiary modifier on Fighter you take because all your other DPS options are at about the same efficiency of 10SP per 4% damage or situational like Chase that you won't be able to use on any boss, or it's just Wise that is hit and miss depending on the boss. Of course if you could get Wise as passive backstab bonus that turns on every time you get out of Brave that would a different talk it would totally eclipse any merits of conditional 4% damage boost.

So where would you put 10SP for 4% damage?

[vantpers]

Chase advance and Wise are both options. What part of "barely worth getting" do you not understand anyway, the part where it still qualifies as worth getting? PP Slayer is a choice albeit one you get after everything else is pretty much gone and you have to choose between flat satk, stance that might be completely useless depending on what you build for, and something that is 0% damage boost on bosses either way.

[Rayden]

I personally don't like PP Slayer much myself and take S-ATK Up instead for consistency... With the current Straight Charge meta, it isn't that simple to just stay under 50% PP, and it's better to fully recover and fully deplete the PP bar instead.

[Rayden]

So... The update is out now. All the focus seems to be on Hero right now, but has anyone tried out any of the balance adjustments for the other classes, skills, weapons, PAs, and techs? I'd be interested to hear any discussion/comments about it.

[IchijinKali]

So... The update is out now. All the focus seems to be on Hero right now, but has anyone tried out any of the balance adjustments for the other classes, skills, weapons, PAs, and techs? I'd be interested to hear any discussion/comments about it.

Well thanks to the lowering of SP required to max Mastery 2 for tech classes. FO/TE TE can now effortlessly max Wind, Light, and Dark w/o having to sacrifice other skills. As TE/RA with them lowering Shifta Advance, Deband Advance, Deband Toughness, and Shifta Critical down to 5 as well I was able to full max Wind Mastery 1 & 2, get Shifta Critical, and keep my 9 points in PP Boost.

[Sizustar]

As a Fo Main, it's now possible to have Fire/Ice or Lighting/Ice due to the reduced SP cost~

[Rayden]

As TE/RA with them lowering Shifta Advance, Deband Advance, Deband Toughness, and Shifta Critical down to 5 as well I was able to full max Wind Mastery 1 & 2, get Shifta Critical, and keep my 9 points in PP Boost.

Does a Te/Ra actually need Wind Mastery now that it doesn't affect Zanverse?

[IchijinKali]

Does a Te/Ra actually need Wind Mastery now that it doesn't affect Zanverse?

It doesn't? . . . WOOHOOO MORE PP TO PLAY WITH

[cheapgunner]

Now if I could set techs onto each elemental rod and tails on my FoTe so that switching them didn't mean remapping techs to the same weapon again would be awesome to have...

[escarlata]

Did anyone test whether Fomel and Barant share the 2 min cd or if they now have independent cds? Have yet to install on my new comp to figure out myself

[Evangelion X.XX]

I especially like how now with the WB adjustment/nerf/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, which means → stuff actually survives for longer than 2 seconds, pugs are in a frantic-panic in Beach Wars.

Overall, I'm okay with the WB, changes, you get 6 WBs, but the duration of the "weak effect" is now slightly shorter than before, that is, when you only had 4 WBs. It's alright, though.

Edit:

Forgot to mention that WB cooldown is still 90 seconds.

[Kintama]

Any numbers on sharp/tritt zero?

[Gaylar]

Did Guard Stance Hu just take the reins for damage on Hunter?

Guard Stance Advance now gives +50% power for 40 seconds upon successful JG... that's really not hard to keep up assuming things like Ignition Parry count towards activating it, and it only costs 15 SP to max GS and GSA vs spending 25 SP on Fury+Fury Ups+Fury Combo, that's extra points you could dump somewhere rather easily.

[ZerotakerZX]

Did Guard Stance Hu just take the reins for damage on Hunter?

Guard Stance Advance now gives +50% power for 40 seconds upon successful JG... that's really not hard to keep up assuming things like Ignition Parry count towards activating it, and it only costs 15 SP to max GS and GSA vs spending 25 SP on Fury+Fury Ups+Fury Combo, that's extra points you could dump somewhere rather easily.If you need extra SP or don't like simple as a stick Fury playstyle - why not?

[Evangelion X.XX]

Has anyone tested out Shunka's damage (not home at the moment so unfortunately I can't test it myself right now)?

[Kintama]

LOL banish arrow is KILL pack it up, it now does like 25% of total damage compared to ~140% from before, not to mention it now costs 50PP compared to the previous 20.

RIP in PP consumption

[Raid_Hirsh]

LOL banish arrow is KILL pack it up, it now does like 25% of total damage compared to ~140% from before, not to mention it now costs 50PP compared to the previous 20.

RIP in PP consumption

I second this statement!

Banish Arrow is literally hot-trash right now; like, it's not even worth using anymore...

Honestly, if SEGA increased the PP consumption from 20 PP to 30 PP, along with nerfing the original damage from 140-percent to 100-percent -- then, pretty much, everyone would of been okay with that.

Instead, they managed to cripple TE/BR, BR/HU, and BR/RA's Bullet Bow bossing capabilities to a whole another caliber.

[ZerotakerZX]

I second this statement!

Banish Arrow is literally hot-trash right now; like, it's not even worth using anymore...

Honestly, if SEGA increased the PP consumption from 20 PP to 30 PP, along with nerfing the original damage from 140-percent to 100-percent -- then, pretty much, everyone would of been okay with that.

Instead, they managed to cripple TE/BR, BR/HU, and BR/RA's Bullet Bow bossing capabilities to a whole another caliber.

How BrHu is crippled?

[Skornedemon]

Shunka buff we episode 2 again
:^]

[IchijinKali]

How BrHu is crippled?

Those weird people that use bow as BR/HU maybe.

[ZerotakerZX]

Those weird people that use bow as BR/HU maybe.

Ya, spooky.

[Kintama]

Ya, spooky.

I'll spook you.

[BlakLanner]

Did anyone test whether Fomel and Barant share the 2 min cd or if they now have independent cds? Have yet to install on my new comp to figure out myself

They are all on the same cooldown, unfortunately.

[oratank]

rip ra vs gracia sat cannon before 50k per hit to 40k end attract 75k to 40k :/

[Lorelei]

Katana Braver here, did a couple of quick tests on Bal Rodos to see what a buffed Shunka was like (I only joined late into EP4, so I never saw it's EP3 glory days) and was pretty underwhelmed by what I found. It's certainly possible I could have messed up and missed the weak point on some Shunka hits or something, so don't take my word on this alone.

Tests were done in Weak Stance + Katana Combat, but without activating katana gear.

Sakura0 + Gekka: 5 rotations to kill (1,232,738 dmg) in 10 seconds (apparently) [185 PP total]
Tsukimi + Gekka: 7 rotations to kill (1,265,630 dmg) in 12 seconds (apparently) [175 PP total]
Shunka-shunran: 3 uses to kill (1,310,490 dmg) in 15 seconds (apparently) [90 PP total]

I say 'apparently' after the times because a comparison of the frame data would be more exact, and I don't know what the new Shunka's frame data is (since I think it was supposed to have been made faster than before)

Shunka seems very good damage per PP at least!

[TehCubey]

Brilliant Ragrants 3 increases the tech's power by up to whopping 800% now. Considering ragrants is about 1200% base damage, that's roughly +66% damage increase. Might be worth looking into instead of the old favorite Concentrated Ragrants.

Might also help soften the compound tech nerf a little.

[ZerotakerZX]

Ok, let's talk about knux for a change. As far as Fi's weapons goes previosly my Bal Rodos tests showed that most DPSy weapon of Fi was DS (on a target that does fight back of course), thanks to kamataichi ring. But now it seems like Knux getting the gold medal. They say it was always good for burst damage, but now it's ridiculous. Roughy 10% more damaging than DS and 20% than TD in situations like this.

[Rayden]

Knuckles always had the best DPS with Straight Charge Type-0.

[TehCubey]

As far as Fi's weapons goes previosly my Bal Rodos tests showed that most DPSy weapon of Fi was DS (on a target that does fight back of course), thanks to kamataichi ring.

Your old tests were wrong. Even without meme charge, flicker->BHS outdamages both DS and TD. Now BHS is 10% stronger but that still puts it below straight charge in terms of damage output.

In other words, the fi meta didn't change at all.

[starwind75043]

Just going to quote my self from the Su thread


Ok i have not tried melon yet but just tried marron in this eq.

I'll say this. having more than 2 active Marrons on your palette is probably about right.

It's just a waste of time tossing it anytime before final stage. ( No more free damage sob sob)

Marron is still viable due to being able to survive so much abuse.

Also for just pure DPS you're probably better off using Shinnku

[MightyHarken]

So people lied about weak hit adv scaling in any part of the body as long as wb was applied. It was just a nerf to wb on old content. Lol. At this point I´m just wishing for a hero class for rangers

[Superia]

I would be content with a rifle/launcher/bb advanced class in the style of hero.

[LancerFate]

So people lied about weak hit adv scaling in any part of the body as long as wb was applied. It was just a nerf to wb on old content. Lol. At this point I´m just wishing for a hero class for rangers

Aren't you missing something ? i pretty sure it was WHA apply to the part of body were is weak bullet, not to whole boss/mob ( and its not x2 WHA scaling if WB applied to weak point )

[jooozek]

matchmaking is so garbage right now, first run in EQs usually fills in, but anything after that it's either 1/12 or half/12

[IchijinKali]

matchmaking is so garbage right now, first run in EQs usually fills in, but anything after that it's either 1/12 or half/12

Mostly because there is two options to retry in your current block OR in a shared mpa block(or w/e it is called).

[oratank]

Mostly because there is two options to retry in your current block OR in a shared mpa block(or w/e it is called).

wait until jp tried of this crap and decide to make their expert block no. it will back to normal mostly. buster quest may make it happen

[MightyHarken]

Never said otherwise. Ofc I meant where the wb was applied. And no it doesn´t scale with WHA. It´s the same as before.

[Kondibon]

Never said otherwise. Ofc I meant where the wb was applied. And no it doesn´t scale with WHA. It´s the same as before.Wait, you thought WB scaled withSHA? No one ever said that. All that happens is you can trigger WHA on a WB spot even if the total multiplier is still less than enough to proc WHA.

[MightyHarken]

Next Class

A new class will be released after Episode 5 that’s also going to be an advanced class. This advanced class might release for Episode 6?
Existing Classes

They plan to add skills and change some of the behavior of existing classes.
They’re going to buff techer! However, they haven’t decided what they plan to do.
Class Exchange Ticket

They’re planning a scratch exchange ticket for SG Scratch.

[[Ayumi]]

Next Class

A new class will be released after Episode 5 that’s also going to be an advanced class. This advanced class might release for Episode 6?
Existing Classes

They plan to add skills and change some of the behavior of existing classes.
They’re going to buff techer! However, they haven’t decided what they plan to do.
Class Exchange Ticket

They’re planning a scratch exchange ticket for SG Scratch.

Hang on. Class Exchange Ticket?
Like change Class Excubes to another or something? Because I would truly want that.

[Meteor Weapon]

Damn they're really planning ahead of times, Tho I hope it's in a good way.

[KaizoKage]

Damn they're really planning ahead of times, Tho I hope it's in a good way.

They're making some of us hype in advance

[Sizustar]

Next Class

A new class will be released after Episode 5 that’s also going to be an advanced class. This advanced class might release for Episode 6?
Existing Classes

They plan to add skills and change some of the behavior of existing classes.
They’re going to buff techer! However, they haven’t decided what they plan to do.
Class Exchange Ticket

They’re planning a scratch exchange ticket for SG Scratch.

What they said in the Ark Live is there is no new class to be released during Ep.5, Hero is the only one.

And some other thing about weapon type and how it's not likely to not have new one?

[reinforcers]

the strangest thing about ep 5 for me so far is the new multiblock system. in a party, if you done a Quest, leader can retry or take other Quest anytime he/she want without member permission. unlike before that everyone need to get back to campship to retry. so at some point, some players miss taken the drop cause of this. but, the strange thing is, Leader need permission of all member if he/she want to retake or take other Quest if the current one isnt complete, or not even started yet

[oratank]

the strangest thing about ep 5 for me so far is the new multiblock system. in a party, if you done a Quest, leader can retry or take other Quest anytime he/she want without member permission. unlike before that everyone need to get back to campship to retry. so at some point, some players miss taken the drop cause of this. but, the strange thing is, Leader need permission of all member if he/she want to retake or take other Quest if the current one isnt complete, or not even started yet

it always like that from start only extreme quest that have to get everyone back on ship before do anything

[reinforcers]

it always like that from start only extreme quest that have to get everyone back on ship before do anything

if you meant a very long time ago, then it is a yes, but directly before EP 5 update it is a no, I did party as a leader on EQ with my friends, try to retry the quest while some of them not in campship get an error "not all members in campship" and on retake or taking different quests while on quest also doesnt need everyone permission, the quest directly retaken

[arokidaaron]

Uhh pretty sure that only happens on extreme quests. Weeks prior to ep 5 release, a friend of mine will go back to campship and just retake the quest while I stay at the field waiting and that's in and out of an EQ.

[reinforcers]

Uhh pretty sure that only happens on extreme quests. Weeks prior to ep 5 release, a friend of mine will go back to campship and just retake the quest while I stay at the field waiting and that's in and out of an EQ.

hmmm ... probably I was mistaken
still, the part where you need permission to retake quest that not even started is strange for me.

[Evangelion X.XX]

I did a few random TD3 triggers today that someone hosted (I ran as RaHu).

For the record, both my Qliphad Rifle/Launcher are +225 R-Atk/16pp, and I'm using Union Set with +145 R-Atk/17pp on each piece of unit.

I just wanted to throw out there a few obervations I noticed:

1) Darker Walls take me more than just 2 SatCans/EndAtts, I now need to go for a 3rd one (with wb, ofc).
2) Corrupted Airships now take me 3 fully charged EndAtts; before, it took me 1 fully charged, and 1 half charged (with wb).

I haven't tried TDVR after the wb nerf, so no comments there.

[[Ayumi]]

I did a few random TD3 triggers today that someone hosted (I ran as RaHu).

For the record, both my Qliphad Rifle/Launcher are +225 R-Atk/16pp, and I'm using Union Set with +145 R-Atk/17pp on each piece of unit.

I just wanted to throw out there a few obervations I noticed:

1) Darker Walls take me more than just 2 SatCans/EndAtts, I now need to go for a 3rd one (with wb, ofc).
2) Corrupted Airships now take me 3 fully charged EndAtts; before, it took me 1 fully charged, and 1 half charged (with wb).

I haven't tried TDVR after the wb nerf, so no comments there.

That sounds bad.

[MightyHarken]

Yeah, ranger got a straight nerf. Don´t let people around here fool you.