*Sigh* Locking threads and other forms of censorship

[Athian]

What does everyone think about this? I mean there is a line to be drawn as far as obcenities go, but what about voicing an opinion? Even if it's a blatent flame. After all thats what a message board is all about. A place for the community to talk about everything that goes on this includes acusations and flames. As long as the obcenities are kept to a minimum I see nothing wrong with. Well answer away. And yes I already know what the board policy is on this Ambrai so don't reply with it. Its a democracy after all majority rules unless of course you're Al Gore.

[Lenneth]

...

So, um, what gave you the impression that this board was a governed collective, much less a democracy?

This is a forum. Where, through the graces of our hosts, we are allowed to share information related to PSO. If the hosts find you or your information lacking, they may remove it or you at their discretion. They are very gracious hosts, and fairly underappreciated for their works on this site.

Censorship? Not at all. This is a private forum, not a public one; the only rights you have are given to you by the moderators. There's no guarantee that you'll have your say... beyond your good manners.

Granted, I'm not a moderator, so take this all with a grain of salt.

Pax, Lenneth

[Socrates]

Heh. "Democracy". Heh heh. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif

Forums like this are not a democracy; they are the sole ownership of the board owner. If he wanted to, Tomeeboy could restrict everyone's access to the boards or delete every post that started with the letter "g," and it'd be his right to do so. Posters on a message board are there at the allowance of the board owner.

Now, that said, an owner (and, by extrapolation, his staff) that is draconic or slapdash in their moderation of a board will swiftly die, because if there's one thing that can be said about the internet, it's a massive free market out there. Don't like PSO World? There are literally a thousand or more other PSO message boards and websites out there you can go to instead.

That said, I haven't had any problem with PSO World myself here. I think the moderators are doing a pretty damn decent job. The job of moderator is an extremely unrewarding one sometimes, as they don't get the credit they are often due.

Of course, I may be somewhat biased, having been a moderator of other message boards in the past, but still... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif

[Tomeeboy]

As a Community Site, our goal is to draw in new members and try to get everyone involved, which in the long run, benefits everyone who visits the site. If all of the trouble makers were free to go around flaming and bashing everyone, it would not only discourage new members from joining, but would probably scare off some of the current members as well. This is why certain guidelines and regulations have to be enforced.

Besides, I don't think there are many people who want to read through 10 pages of flames just to find some valid PSO info http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_wink.gif

-Tom





<font size=1>[ This message was edited by: Tomeeboy on 2001-03-10 09:27 ]</font>

[Drake]

__I mean there is a line to be drawn as far as obcenities go, but what about voicing an opinion?__

Oddly enough, the moderators seem more intent on squelching opinions than obscenities. --;; There's one thread (Ambrai's petition) in which no less than a dozen posts were deleted for containing mild insults - I believe "dope" was one of them - and many others which contained *extremely* offensive words (including the S-word, the F-word, and a certain other F-word which refers to homosexuals the way the N-word refers to blacks) were left unedited.

Would someone on the staff please tell us the exact official criteria for deciding which posts should be censored? So far, it seems to be left entirely up to the whims of Ambrai and company. (I mean no offense to Ambrai in particular, but it was her behaviour in the petition thread that left the greatest impression on me.)

[gideon]

For most intents and purposes this has been a democracy. If anyone recalls when I could no longer to take the load of the forums and the site, I requested feedback in the general forum for recommendations on who should be named moderator. Everyone seemed to agree on two names. Ambrai, and ragnarok.

Neither have let me regret my decisions, as they've both proven to be extremely effective moderators.

As for the moderation by them, Tomeeboy makes the most valid points with this.

And now we would like some more feedback. What's with the aggression bug flying around the boards the past few days? Looking through all the topics and now its become difficult to find a thread not accusing someone of cheating, or duping. Or just insulting them.

[Brinaro]

And further more, we are a Republic, not a Democracy, hehe. Get a clue.

[myau1]

Censorship sucks in any shape or form! Nuff said

[Ambrai]

On 2001-03-10 10:23, Drake wrote:
__I mean there is a line to be drawn as far as obcenities go, but what about voicing an opinion?__

Oddly enough, the moderators seem more intent on squelching opinions than obscenities. --;; There's one thread (Ambrai's petition) in which no less than a dozen posts were deleted for containing mild insults - I believe "dope" was one of them - and many others which contained *extremely* offensive words (including the S-word, the F-word, and a certain other F-word which refers to homosexuals the way the N-word refers to blacks) were left unedited.



Drake I am wondering what you think you saw.... Go back to that thread and view it. Whenever I have edited a thread I never remove someones opinion at all. But then again if you call 2 people going back and forth in a 2nd grade cut down war an opinion.... then I am guilty.

I edit flames, if you have a problem with that, dont flame. Kinda simple concept. I am extreamly offended at your statement. I dont 'censor' opinions and I DO NOT EDIT SWEARS, if you have a problem with that then I am sorry. I know a majority of the people who come here are kids, well everyone asks to be treated as an adult, then I ask you all to act like it.

Today alone after I posted the 'board guidelines' people STILL post things where they shouldnt and flame ect. Wouldnt that make you angry?

Finally this board is for information. NOT Flames, NOT your personal opinion on another player. I dont know about kids, but adults dont come here to see flame wars going out of control.

If you want me to stop moderating thats fine. Just take a look at the future of the boards then...

http://pub13.ezboard.com/fbrellserilisfrm39

[Neojin]

If ya dont like it, you know where the door is.

Also I believe they were trying to clean up General, flame all you want in "Cheaters". I just want a section of the board were I dont have to filter though pages of crap flames to read about someones PSO experiences.

Ever hear about "Biting the hand that feeds you" ? If people keep attacking the Mods I know I sure the hell wouldnt want to keep the board going.

see first statement.

[Athian]

Biting the hand that feeds you???? No and how am I attacking the mods. Shit the little yellow school bus must have crased into the computer lab. Whats with all the ass kissing anyway. Think if you kiss some ass you might get one of those major duped rares? I've seen plenty of completely open forums all I gotta say is don't wanna read it then don't.

[Drake]

__Drake I am wondering what you think you saw.... Go back to that thread and view it.__

How is that going to help when you've already deleted the posts in question? ^^; I do apologize if I'm making them out to be less offensive than they actually were - I never had a chance to read any of them; the "dope" example was taken from one of Phantasy's later comments - but it was rather disconcerting to open a new thread and see so many posts completely blanked out. "Edited" usually means that the offensive bits were removed, not the entire message. --;

I realize that you're only doing your job, but it might have been better to leave the previous posts alone and ask the two combatants to move any further quarrelling to a separate thread. Many people take the censoring of their opinions as a personal attack... which is exactly what you're trying to ban, isn't it?

__I am extreamly offended at your statement. I dont 'censor' opinions...__

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. "You're a dope!" is most definitely someone's opinion. (In some cases, it could be considered a fact, but I don't think that's what you meant. ^^;;)

__...And I DO NOT EDIT SWEARS, if you have a problem with that then I am sorry. I know a majority of the people who come here are kids, well everyone asks to be treated as an adult, then I ask you all to act like it.__

I am extremely offended at your assumption that I wish to be treated as something I'm not (and don't want to be, I might add).

...Obviously, we could go on inadvertantly insulting each other all day, but I'll agree to stop taking offense if you will. ^^;

As for the swearing... I certainly don't expect it to be prohibited if nobody else minds it, but I'm still confused about the F-word (the other one). I can't imagine that you would allow a harsh racial/ethnic slur to remain on the board. Why is any other kind of slur any different?

__If you want me to stop moderating thats fine. Just take a look at the future of the boards then...__

That EQ board doesn't really help to illustrate your point - maybe nobody over there is in a sufficiently bad mood today - but it was amusing to read. Thank you very much for the link.

[Seutekh]

Sorry folks, I'm well rested, so this one's going to be pretty long. Grab a cup of coffee and settle in, or just skip it.

You know... I woke up at 1pm. I'd had a decent night of drinking and gambling. (penny stakes so it's not technically illegal HA! I won 60 cents, by the way. Drinks for the house on me!) Other than some nasty nightmares (which actually had a happy ending) I had a great night.

Anyways... the point is I was in a wonderful mood.

And then I logged on and saw this thread.

Athias:First of all, I haven't seen any moderating of obscenities, only the removal of off topic subject matter. For instance: blatant flames and insults. What purpose do they really serve on a board like this? It's for general information about PSO. A place where people new to the game can come and learn as well as those of us who've been playing for a while can discuss what we've seen and heard. We can clear up the rumors we've heard, hear new ones, or simply enjoy eachothers company. (in a sense)

What purpose does "yuu r a MORON!" really serve here? Its' an opinion? Great. Keep that one to yourself. I've gotta admit, I've had the same thought about a few people posting on this board,(and I'll doubtless think it again in the future) but I was kind enough not to say it. Why? Do I really feel so sure that I'm superior to every one of you that you're actually enlightened by my opinions on someone's intelligence? Would it help ANY of you enjoy the game, or even this board more if I said it?

Nope, and so I keep my assenine opinions to myself.

Now to move on to your second post... it's the same type of ludicrous behavior we're talkig about... A blatant insult against EVERYONE here who disagrees with you. Why bother? If you really dislike us all so much, (apparently including the moderators) then why bother to stay? No, I'm not asking you to leave. I personally haven't read your 60something posts, but I'd be willing to bet you had something intelligent to say in at least one of them, which in my opinion makes you a semi-valuable contributor. My point is this: You've acted out in an agressive manner for no apparent reason. The moderators have been as friendly as they could be expected under a personal attack, when you've accused them of censorship and mismanagement of something that they do in their spare time FOR OUR BENEFIT. They haven't banned you or responded in kind, (or both, and I've seen far to many moderators who were happy to do just that.) and they've in fact given you their reasons for their actions. What more could you reasonably expect from them?

Drake: Had you read those posts, you'd realize they weren't deleted for containing insults, but deleted for containing nothing but insults. They take up space here, and contribute nothing. They don't bring more people to the boards, they don't help us keep the people we have. They tell us nothing new and exciting about the game, and they waste everyone else's time who's actually looking for something about the game.

An insult is a form of an opinion, but not the kind that belongs here. If you'd really like to insult someone, there's a board called "Off Topic." While that's probably not it's primary use, and definitely not the original intent, I seriously doubt it would be very unwelcome there. This board is for information and opinions reguarding PSO itself, not the individual players.

Myau1: It's not our board. Every time we post, we're using someone else's space. They've been kind enough to provide it and arrange it for our benefit. I'm not a fan of censorship, but if you're so keen on having your opinions heard about someone's parentage or intelligence, I'm sure you can find a place somewhere. This is not a nationwide system of thought supression, or a campaign of ignorance. In fact, if you really want to get down to brass tacks, the attempt to invalidate someone's argument by insulting them is censorship in and of itself.

That's my two cents for now. (I've got 58 more where that came from, so don't think I'm done.)

[Ambrai]

That EQ board doesn't really help to illustrate your point - maybe nobody over there is in a sufficiently bad mood today - but it was amusing to read. Thank you very much for the link.


lol actually I go there myself for a laugh since I quit EQ. Read that board and you will know why I left http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_wink.gif.

On the racal slurs. If you noticed some that I missed please PM the links to me. Those are the least tolerated and result in suspension instantly.

The reason I removed the posts in the one topic when Phantasy and Azrael went to town on each other was because this was what they put.

Phantasy: Dood you suck ass, maybe you need to go and get laid

Azrael: You prepubescent little whore, you are a waste of space and I am offended that you are taking up my oxgyen.

There was no substance to the posts except direct attacks against each other. I dont edit any txt that is of a non flame nature. Of course there are certian posts that are boarderline, but I just have to use my best judgement on them. More times than not I leave them as are.

I am sorry if my tone in the previous post was uncalled for, I was just very fed up with the recent string of attacks the PSO World staff has come under for little or no reason. Most of it carring over from the Vicious attack by Ven_Jance.

[Drake]

Gah! I completely agree with you - those messages contained nothing of value, and there's certainly no reason the entire PSOW community should have to scroll through them every time they load the thread. I just... I had no idea that anyone would post anything so mindlessly vicious on a public board. oO; I was clearly wrong to give Phantasy and Azrael the benefit of the doubt, and I'm terribly sorry if I've contributed to any hard feelings between the members and the staff.

[ragnarok]

Seutekh, you couldn't have said it better. I agree with you, your points of opinion are great.

Okay, its my turn to say what I think.

For one thing I do not condone profanity, at all. There is no need for this. If you go throughout the cheater's section you can see how I have edited these posts and I have done so for a very good reason.

Flames are natural, I can understand that. But sometimes it may go to far to the point where racial/ethnical remarks are just obscurd to the enviornment of the board itself.

Even though I cannot edit/lock anything here on the General Forum, I do notice the errors by users but it is nithing big considering they want their point taken in a section where everyone can see it.

Other than that I must say that I love being part a member of these boards and I shall never regret signing up with them. They provide me with great and knowledgable insight through the game of PSO.


I'm out for now.

[Socrates]

"I'm sorry, but that's just not true. "You're a dope!" is most definitely someone's opinion."

Pffft. That's not an opinion, that's just some grade-school-level blabbering. Well, okay, technically, it's an "opinion," in the same sense that "Your mother wears combat boots" is an "opinion", but that's hardly in the same category.

An opinion would be: "I feel you are wrong, and for these reasons: etc, etc, etc." and I suspect it is exactly that sort of stuff that Ambrai was talking about when she says she doesn't edit opinions (not to speak for Ambrai, of course, and please correct me if I'm wrong http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif)

Simply calling someone names or insulting them does absolutely nothing to help the board grow. Whatever happened to the fine art of arguing one's case? If you have a problem with what someone says, give reasons and examples of why you think they are wrong. Don't just rattle off with some lame insult or bout of name-calling.

[Drake]

I did mean that it was *technically* an opinion, and I do understand why a moderator might not place it in the same category as a more elegantly-worded and less volatile one. ^^; I only wished to point out that Ambrai's denial was not entirely accurate. My apologies (again) - I was trying to keep that post to a reasonable length, so I didn't get to make myself as clear as I would have liked.

Personally, I have no objection to the mild form of censorship which the moderators have been practicing thus far, but I do hope that less crude bouts of name-calling will be left alone. There's a big difference between "go 2 %@$*, u *#%@ing #$*%!!" and "A pox on you and all your offspring for six generations!" (Neither is the best way to get a point across, of course, but at least the latter might be of some interest to the spectators. ^^;)