Societal (read: Class) Obligations?

[dropslash]

All right, i know this a hotly debated topic, though i just spent some time looking through the threads and didn't come across anything, if it's out there, feel free to move this as needed.

On to the topic. As if you hadn't already guessed, it's in reference to just what "roles" different character classes play in the grand scheme of an online episode or quest. More specifically, Androids and FOrces.

On the whole, since playing online, i've rarely encountered many conflicts, but every once in a while i come across a FO who refuses to cast shifta, deband, resta, jellen, zalure, etc etc etc. or an Android who won't warn of or set traps.

Ok, i only play androids, now, in doing so, when i create a character i understand and accept the fact that i have certain obligations as that race/class that i need to fulfill when playing on a team. As an Android, it's in my job description that i will...

01. Warn of & disarm traps. I play an HUcaseal, but i always keep a firearm with me for disarming traps. Racast and RAcaseal have no excuse. A lot of times higher level characters don't care about traps, but as an Android, it's still a "duty" to alert the team of their presence. The phrase "Traps" should be on your quick speech menu.

02. Use my traps to help the team as often as it takes. This is especially important in Ultimate when Indi Belra's go bonkers with rocket punch action, Dark Bringers bust out the rapid fire yellow megid, or Ob Lilies are around. Same goes for Damage Traps when Slimes and Gunners are zipping to and fro. The guaranteed effects of traps, especially on higher difficulties with lower level characters, are an Androids job to bust out.

03. Block incoming paralize/poison attacks. Ok, this is slightly less important than the first two, but seriously, at lower levels, give the fleshys a break and run defense against the Lilies.

By the same token (and this is fresh in my mind due to 2 separate incidents a few days ago), FO class characters have an obligation to keep their team supported.

Now please, don't get me wrong, by no means is a FO's sole purpose to play medic for the team, but more oft than not the situation dictates that when working in unison to accomplish the common goal of leveling up/completing the level/defeating the boss, a FO is in the unique position of making everyone's job easier (including their own) by backing up the rest of the team his/her Techniques.

Again, i've not often come across people who don't do "their jobs". I've played with Androids who use traps brilliantly, and FO's who can carry a team of lv80 characters through Ultimate without breaking a sweat.

In the end, no one has to play any character any certain way, but in the scope of team play, it's generally a good idea to use your class attributes to help and support your team, after all, we're all working towards the same overlaying goal. It just seems like as much common sense.

As an end note, support your local FO. Kick in for fluids or donate some cash to the cause. Having played almost exclusively offline i'm not used to having the support of FO's. i have no problems whatsoever to pitching in with keeping them stocked. After all, it is us they're burning through all that cash to support.

As a really end note, huge thanks to all the human and newman HU's and RA's who adopt the FO role on a FO-less team, you da antz.

[Shentar]

hahahaha. Yellow megid. Priceless. Dark Bringer's gun doesn't nearly kill me.

Okay, now that that's out of my system. Androids are in no way obliged to warn of traps, or to use their own traps. Just because you do that, doesn't mean everybody else has to. And forces are in no way obliged to support. It's not like shifta, deband, jellen, and zalure are force only.

In other words, the only things somebody is obliged to do is revive when they're dead, and maybe anti when they're shocked (or definately when they're paralyzed). It is also helpful if people are willing to heal androids on hard boss fights, because during those they can't go back for more mates.

[dropslash]

So why is reviving someone an obligation, but acting preemptively to prevent death in the first place with the particular strengths of a character, not? I'd rather blast a trap then waste a Moon Atomizer. And as for Androids and bosses, as an Android player, it's my responsibility to keep myself stocked on healing items before a fight. Resta is always appreciated, but not required.

I guess some people just know the value of being team players, and some do not. I guess that get's chalked up to experience. What's the point of playing as a team, if no one plays as a team?

And as for "Yellow Megid", it midas well be the way it strikes down lower level characters.

[Shentar]

I said harder boss fights. As in ultimate dark falz and ultimate olga flow. Ones that could potentially run down all of somebody's mates before the fight ends.

One is not obliged to do anything based on class. However, one is obliged to do things that everybody is obliged to do. Everybody would be obliged to revive somebody who has died. Any race, any class.

[saffaya]

Okay, now that that's out of my system. Androids are in no way obliged to warn of traps, or to use their own traps. Just because you do that, doesn't mean everybody else has to. And forces are in no way obliged to support. It's not like shifta, deband, jellen, and zalure are force only.

Excuse me, but you're a dick.
Point is, it is your and anybody's right to be so.
Just as it is mine to immediately leave a team featuring such people.

Ever heard of the concept of teamwork ?
Every member using his/her own particular abilities for the best of the entire team ?

The idea of a FO not doing some support just boggles my mind. As is a Droid not warning of traps. (takes you what ? the time to press a shortcut ?)
But like I said, it's everybody's right to be a selfish jerk.

[IceBlink]

The concept of teamwork and support play would depend on which country you're from, which results in how you were brought up...! ^_^;;

Japanese players have the inherent ability to play as a unit, or rather, limbs of one body. All must function to work effectively, and can do so without any prompting at all. o_o For the most part, anyway.

US players... ah, generally, the majority of players I've run into have a unfortunate "me me me" syndrome. ^_^;; Oh well...

[s3rial_one]

Iceblink, that's complete crap.

Droplash, I'd go a step further and say that anyone who isn't doing eveyrthing in his power to aid the team is a slacker and ought to get the hell out of the game.

Forces that don't keep S/D up irk the living hell out of me. They aren't expensive to cast, they don't require much effort, and they make a HUGE differences. Same deal with J/Z; they even earn the force freaking experience points, now! Why the hell would they not cast them, especially in a melee-heavy group?

Resta's another notable point to gripe about, and not just with forces. People seem oblivious to the fact that androids can only car 10 *mates. I've given up on my HUcaseal because people are so damned stingy with the heals; I'll run clear across the room to take out a bunch of enemies attacking someone, get smacked around a bit, and then have that person just run off without so much as a resta in return. It's especially bad in combination with everyone snatching up all the *mates that drop to feed to their damned mags.

Look, I've played a force since Ep.1 on the Dreamcast, and I've played android hunters and rangers since the Gamecube. I know both sides of the coin, and the bottom line is that if you're a force and you're not making the utmost use of your support abilities, you should just get the hell out of the game. Unless you're a FOnewm over-equipped with techs, carrying merges and canes to boost your damage, I garauntee you're not pulling your weight with your damage output.

That being said, androids really ought to warn of traps. I know, it's frustrating, 'cause half the time your team won't let you take point or they run right into them, anyways, but at least try... same deal with the lillies; stand close; piss 'em off, and let 'em try to paralyze you, instead of your fleshy teammates. And an android that doesn't use his own traps is every bit as worthless as a force that doesn't use his support abilities.

As for hunters, they have such a easy job, and so few of them can do it right. Your job is to hit stuff, and get hit back. Don't train monsters on the forces and rangers. How difficult is that? Why do so many hunters fail to succeed in doing their job correctly?

[fyrewyre]

i agree with s3rial_one period...except for the fact that i see a few jp players work like the borg while the rest throw u funy pictures and songs while dying. i run into a problem where hunters are running AWAY from their local force and its hard to reach then unless i have two merges and a striker of chao. with that said, i see another alternative. Ranger with a froozen shooter. i've did a better job holding donw ult ruins enemies with a fs than i see most melee forces on antares, not all but most. think about that.
(NOTE:there are no good forces on VEGA)

[kat]

I totally agree with that first post about using one's strengths to support -

Here's what I do:

Regardless of who I play as (hunter/ranger/force) I make a point of healing the 'droids. My brother has also been instructed to help out the 'droids with healing. And this extends to times when my character doesn't need the heal, but the android does. At one point in a boss fight, my ranger was more useful as a 'support force' in that I was healing the droids against falz, and casting shifta and deband instead of doing the shooting thing...

Also, when I'm playing with a force, most times I'll offer them my fluid supply if they ever need it. I have a force, and I know how fast one can go through fluids, and how expensive it can be. Along those lines, I also leave the fluids for the forces to pick up, unless I'm low and then I might snag one di-fluid, or hit the store instead.

Also on the subject of Forces, I have a 'protect the mage' mentality that leads to me trying to keep stuff far enough away from the Forces to keep them from getting hit - I know how few hit points my force has, especially compared to my hunter. Forces can zap the skin off a shark, but if they're cornered, that's bad for everyone.

Now- when playing with other hunters, they tend to have the let's all rush the bad guy and get clobbered mentality... which leads me to guard their back (as a hunter, I'll do the protective circle thing and as a Ranger I'll try and knock back the stuff coming up behind them while they slaughter, and as a force I try and zap it and use j/z... sadly my force's S/D is too low to be worth casting, as the won't transfer...)

So, yeah, I believe it's the obligation of everyone in every class to support the others to the best of their playing ability

[Logical2u]

What are you going to do about FOs that don't cast S/D? Maybe... The RaMar/Marls could cast it. I do. I have level 7 or 8 Shifta and Deband (Thank you for Mind Mags). Some fos are Support (resta, Anti, S/D, J/Z), others are attack, usually in either, ICE, LIGHTNING, FIRE, NORMAL, MEDIUM, ATTACK (RA), or HARD(Usually Grants)
I think we gotta start being Multi-Talented for our offline game play. I RELY on my Resta. I NEED my Zonde for the Flyers, and I WANT to freeze every single Machine Monster.

[Ozric]

Heh, teamwork is KEY in this game when playing online. If you can't be part of a team, play offline...

As for me, I play a HUcast, and I use shortcuts to warn of traps, I actually have one setup that says "Wait, TRAPS!!!" I hope that gets the point across. I always hated not being able to see traps as a FOmarl in V.1 & V.2 so I try to keep this in mind when entering a team. I try to use my traps as often as I can to keep enemies off my teammates back. It's just a common courtesy when playing in a team to use teamwork to an advantage. Sheesh people, join the team or play alone...

[MisoSoup]

So, Shentar says to hell with the rest of the team if he's an android and sees a room full of traps, but he wants that same team to hold his hand through the boss? I'd let someone like that die and I wouldn't look back.

[Vitamin_D]

On 2003-05-18 22:04, Shentar wrote:


Okay, now that that's out of my system. Androids are in no way obliged to warn of traps, or to use their own traps. Just because you do that, doesn't mean everybody else has to.

I see you're not much of a team player. Non Androids can't see traps, and can often run into them being totally oblivious to the traps. If the team consists of no androids, then I think trap visions will work sort of well, but an Adnroid is better. And it's no difficult task to warn of traps, like saffaya said, all it takes is a shortcut.


And forces are in no way obliged to support. It's not like shifta, deband, jellen, and zalure are force only.

True, S/D/J/Z isn't Force only, but theirs are the most effective. What good is a RAmarl's S/D and a HUmars J/Z when there's a Force on the team who can cast them all better? Not only that...casting the spell makes things easier for the Force. Your teammates are stronger, and you won't have to cast too many extra spells..AND you'll get exp. And casting Resta on an Android is very much an obligation as anything else, but not just for Forces, Hunters and Rangers need to aid them to. It's all a matter of helping eachother out. Infact just yesterday, I fought Gol Dragon with my FOnewearl, and my only other teammate was a RAcast. it was REALLy hard, but without S/D and some constant resta, the fight would have been impossible...plus i found an Asuka http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif. Bottom line, well, is what dropslash said in his first post http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


In the end, no one has to play any character any certain way, but in the scope of team play, it's generally a good idea to use your class attributes to help and support your team, after all, we're all working towards the same overlaying goal. It just seems like as much common sense.

Amen.

[LittleMissHoney]

Lol, interesting debate tbh about the roles of players. In my opinion, for what its worth is that you should all play as you wish. To think that everyone is friendly is a bit nieve. I have seen people purposly kill others while DF has the beam thingy on them so they can get all the rares at the end.

As a force I get extreamly annoyed if people "expect" me to cast S+D especially if it is not followed by a please, and also must confess ive been involved in a number of "races" for those little red boxes. However i'll be the first person to donate rares to those lower lvl characters I meet and offer help with bosses etc.

Play how you want to play, you pay your money and have that choice so long as it is not to the detrament of those you are playing with. Being abusive to those around you and joining a team and having no intention of playing as a team is out in my books.

As for people doing their "jobs" based on class is a load of crap tbh, as a force I try to lead from the front, if you dont getting rares is kinda hard as no-one is going to hand over an uber rare just because their class cant use it. If you think they are you havent played online for very long.

[Vanango]

Well, good post.

I agree with you completely. I used to play soley on the Japanese servers b/c they weren't selfish, worked together, and stayed together.

It's sad when time and again I've been told I was the best Force that someone has played with.

If you run far away or ahead of me don't whine when you are dead or your s/d wears off and you don't have it. As a Fo it's equally frustrating when your teammates aren't staying together, casting s/d 3 times isn't fun.

As for j/z I dont' understand why a fo wouldn't cast it, you get exp and it helps clear the room exponentially faster.

I play a hunewearl quite often and my FO skillz often carry over and I end up doing most of the support spells anyways. *sigh*

Most of the pro "do your damn job" guidelines I agree with. Now... about all of us playing together?

I considered starting a clan.. where membership has to be earned... maybe I'll post in meetup section. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Starseed]

I agree with all the above posts. I have recently converted to XBOX PSO, and cant tell you how many dorks play that game.

I play a FOnewm and think I do a great job on support, constantly casting S/D, reverser and resta as well as using lvl 30 Rafoie, Razonde, Rabarta to name a few. The problem I have is the hunters I play with seem to think that I am responsible to keep up the fireworks display while they sneak in for one hit to get EXP. BULL$hit- as a support character- I heal hunters/ androids and aid in battle- not fight the entire battle. Just a rant from a lvl 135 FOnewm thats a little tired of the attitude from some PSO XBOX players!!!

[Shentar]

Actually, I'm a lot mroe of a team player than most people. Seriously, androids don't need shifta and deband. They're given higher attack and defense to comprimise their lack of support techs. However, you're like "My natural high attack and defense aren't enough! Give me more!" And if you're so worried about traps, carry trap/searches. There are generally either lots of traps in a room, or none. If one pops up, use the trap/search, and you're fine.

To say everybody is required to do everything for you proves that you're wrapped in delusion. The extent to which you whine proves to me that you're just a dickless pansy.

[Spellbinder]

On 2003-05-19 17:59, Shentar wrote:
To say everybody is required to do everything for you proves that you're wrapped in delusion. The extent to which you whine proves to me that you're just a dickless pansy.



Um, who said people have to do everything for you? If you're talking about the post above us, I think you just have reading problems. You make it sound like he just wants to sit there and let them do everything while he just sits back and enjoys the show.
After all, he did say "I heal hunters/ androids and aid in battle- not fight the entire battle." You shouldn't judge people so harshly or I'll have to whip out my soap and wash out your mouth. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/twak.gif

[Vitamin_D]

Was this post directed at me? If so, let's get some things straight.



On 2003-05-19 17:59, Shentar wrote:
Actually, I'm a lot mroe of a team player than most people. Seriously, androids don't need shifta and deband. They're given higher attack and defense to comprimise their lack of support techs. However, you're like "My natural high attack and defense aren't enough! Give me more!"
The boost from S/D makes a run through quicker and EASIER...but you don't seem to see that. What's wrong with taking more damage? You're making NO sense. Casting S/D saves FO TP, You won't have to cast a spell like Rafoie as many times, because the other members are taking more damamge. Like I said last time...making defeating enemies easier. This is a convenience for everyone in the party.

And if you're so worried about traps, carry trap/searches. There are generally either lots of traps in a room, or none. If one pops up, use the trap/search, and you're fine.
Ever use a trap vision and no traps show up? It happens. On ver.2 this wasn't a problem, because Trap/Search could be bought at the armor shop. Androids can save other teammates the trouble and clear rooms. Why make things more difficult for your team?



To say everybody is required to do everything for you proves that you're wrapped in delusion.

I didn't say classes have to do these things. I'm suggesting these things should be done because EVERYONE benefits from it. I say again...why make things more difficult for the team? Yeah, i DID say healing Androids should be an obligation...why make their job evern harder than it already is?


The extent to which you whine proves to me that you're just a dickless pansy.

Whining ...riiight. And now I'm a "dickless pansy?" Real mature.

[Mystil]

On 2003-05-19 04:13, IceBlink wrote:
The concept of teamwork and support play would depend on which country you're from, which results in how you were brought up...! ^_^;;

Japanese players have the inherent ability to play as a unit, or rather, limbs of one body. All must function to work effectively, and can do so without any prompting at all. o_o For the most part, anyway.

US players... ah, generally, the majority of players I've run into have a unfortunate "me me me" syndrome. ^_^;; Oh well...



I uhm..have to agree with all of this. Just that, no all US players are like that. I met a variety of other cultures like that.

anyhow not adding to the fire that's been started here. I just wanna say. That as a HUne, it's my obligation to put my ass on the line for a FO. It's my obligation to keep Trimates handy for Droids. It's my obligation, to carry moons at all times. It's my obligation as a player to look out and be aware of what going on with the team I'm in.

As a Force user it IS my important obligation to keep everyone strong, and the enemies weak. There is no, 'I wont cast SD'. I respect the known fact that, my techs do not make me superior to any class, where I don't need no other, and can rule any game online by myself. Which I cannot. No one EVER has to ask for anti/resta/ of SD from me, cause it stays casted. And I know how many minutes it takes for it to wear off, and I overwrite it, when it's nearing it's end. I just wish trifliuds were cheaper. Using 30-40 per game is a killer. >_<.

Most driods, I play with do, do what they are "designed" to do. But if they don't, this is where, Rabarta comes in. As for FOrces not doing thier job. Sadly that's why I stopped using my hune.

But it shouldn't matter if ANYONE else don't fulfill the roles of thier characters. Only the fact that YOU are fulfilling your characters role. Matters.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Silhouette on 2003-05-19 19:03 ]</font>

[GuerillaPimp]

Okay, now that that's out of my system. Androids are in no way obliged to warn of traps, or to use their own traps. Just because you do that, doesn't mean everybody else has to.

Riiiight....You want me to cast shifta, deband, or resta for you after i just ran into a trap your monkey ass didnt shoot down??? Pfft, just better hope you dont get murked, cuz ill leave your ass there to rust



As for j/z I dont' understand why a fo wouldn't cast it, you get exp and it helps clear the room exponentially faster.

I play solo as a FO and rarely use j/z with very little trouble. Of course i have low levels of j/z and im only playing on very hard. Once i get to ultimate and have higher levels of j/z, then i may use them more regularly

Someone said TEAMWORK, meaning if i cant get near you, and there is someone with Resta nearby, let them cast it. It's not SOLEY the FO's job for casting resta, shifta, deband, or reverser. Just the same as if the 'droid is occupied, and i have on a sense plate, i can shoot down the trap while he handles his bizness. Thats what teamwork is about, it's more than just doing your part, its doing ANY action for the good of the team, regardless of who is "supposed" to do what...

[Elusive_Llama]

Seriously, androids don't need shifta and deband. They're given higher attack and defense to comprimise their lack of support techs. However, you're like "My natural high attack and defense aren't enough! Give me more!"

Wrong, their lack of support techs and higher base stats means they are more reliant on Force support to reach their full potential. This was supposed to create an element of teamwork, where androids rely on Forces, and Forces rely on androids and their superior stats to act as meatshields.

BTW, Forces who don't cast support techs are pretty much useless, in my opinion.

A solo Force does not have anybody to hide behind while spamming ra-techs, and will quickly be overrun.

It is only when a Force is paired with a HU or RA that they gain enough breathing room to bust off more than a couple of ra-techs and end up clearing a room of all enemies.

Because it is in the best interest of the Force to have a good meatshield, why NOT cast support techs to power up your partner?

[Elusive_Llama]

I play solo as a FO and rarely use j/z with very little trouble. Of course i have low levels of j/z and im only playing on very hard. Once i get to ultimate and have higher levels of j/z, then i may use them more regularly

You will find it difficult to play as a solo force in multiplayer ultimate. As you already know, spells don't push the monsters back. Ultimate monsters are extremely fast, with many of them as fast as any player. This means you will not be able to gain any leeway to cast more than one spell before risking a painful smackdown.

[Ozric]

Amen to that Elusive...http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Raziel_Kai]

IMHO, I think it's better to play as a team than just pairing with others and trying to snatch those coveted red boxes.

The different classes were meant to fill up niches in the team one forms part of.
Usually, I only play with others in offline multiplayer, but I stress a point with my fellows that if you can't help out, then we just can't help out either.

What I am trying to say is this: treat others the way you want to be treated... and hope they get the point.
After all, you just can't force people to act the way you want them to. But being polite is better than nothing.

[IceBlink]

On 2003-05-19 18:57, Silhouette wrote:


On 2003-05-19 04:13, IceBlink wrote:
The concept of teamwork and support play would depend on which country you're from, which results in how you were brought up...! ^_^;;

Japanese players have the inherent ability to play as a unit, or rather, limbs of one body. All must function to work effectively, and can do so without any prompting at all. o_o For the most part, anyway.

US players... ah, generally, the majority of players I've run into have a unfortunate "me me me" syndrome. ^_^;; Oh well...



I uhm..have to agree with all of this. Just that, no all US players are like that. I met a variety of other cultures like that.

I did mention majority. I can't exactly say the majority of US players are good when I only find a ratio of 1 out of 10 US players who can play as a team without rushing off with some dupe weapon, trying to show off and then getting slaughtered. I know I'm not the only one who suffers from having to find and resurrect people who do this. o_O

As for the trap thing, I would agree... my HUmar has taken to carrying trap/search items since on Ult, the traps hurt a lot more, and androids are... ah... a lot more silent. ^_^;

[Raziel_Kai]

I've got a shortcut for traps:
"!!!!!!"
<stares silently and waits for others to either shoot the traps.... or ask him what was that about http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif >

[GuerillaPimp]

You will find it difficult to play as a solo force in multiplayer ultimate. As you already know, spells don't push the monsters back. Ultimate monsters are extremely fast, with many of them as fast as any player. This means you will not be able to gain any leeway to cast more than one spell before risking a painful smackdown.

Yea i played in the forest on Ultimate with my HUmar once, and had my ass handed to me by a rappy! But if you notice i said i would use them (j/z) more often when they reached higher levels. ive casted shifta and zalure and only noticed maybe 5 points difference. Not sounding right i simulated some scenarios with the damage calculator and saw that shifta 30 and zalure 30 does make a HUGE difference.

[Forral]

cool thread, I'm gonna start supporting my offline multiplayer meatshields more now http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
Can't wait to try it online >.<

I think androids should always warn of traps, I've played with one that didn't even warn us on offline multi and it got pretty frustrating. All we could do was look at his screen.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Forral on 2003-05-20 08:27 ]</font>

[Mystil]

On 2003-05-19 21:02, Elusive_Llama wrote:
BTW, Forces who don't cast support techs are pretty much useless, in my opinion.



Probably nothing's more annoying than a coincited FO.

[Starseed]

I not only hold my own in Ultimate as a FO- I support most of the players I play with. Thats my biggest complaint, Hunters and Rangers unable to hold their own in Ultimate- dont go for a quick hit and then leave your Force to finish it all off. I'll cast shifta and deband, I'll raise your a$$ from the dead. I'll use Zalure and Jellen, but the minute I see you leave the battle to chase down a red box- you'll get no support from me. You wanna play on a team? Then play as a team... you wanna treasure hunt- keep your a$$ offline!!!

[LadyRedComet]

It's not SOLEY the FO's job for casting resta, shifta, deband, or reverser.

Not the fo's job to cast reverser, eh? Considering ONLY fos can use reverser, I find that difficult to believe. To further the point that fos should help their teammates, I'm going to give you two examples of real fos I know. One is my sister's FOnewearl, Demi, and the other is my cousin's FOnewm, Jefff. No real class/strength difference there. The difference is in how they play.

I've gone into ultimate several times with each of these characters (I'm a HUnewearl myself). Jefff spends his time treasure hunting and casting Rafoie (hm, that seems to be a stereotype forces place solely on HUmars). He seems to have no time for sd/jz, and sure as hell can't cast resta or help my poor Hune, who gets her ass pounded into the ground playing newman-shield for Jefff. Demi, on the other hand spends her time casting her spells faster than my HUne can get hit, and her spells do 700+ damage, which is enough to stop the enemies long enough for my HUne to back off a bit and avoid getting hit. Demi always casts sd (giving my HUne a much-needed atp/dfp boost), and never leaves me with less than full hp when she casts resta (and she casts it whether she's injured or not). And when Demi and I come across a rare, the first thing she does is check which kind of weapon it is (sword/cane/gun), and who gets it depends on which kind it is (I get swords/guns, she gets canes).

Okay, after that spiel, I think it should be obvious which one the 'good' force is. The amazing thing about Demi is that nothing she uses is duped. Her weapons (she switches her weapon depending on the spell she's using) are a Club of Laconium (foie boost), Club of Zumiuran (zonde boost), Mace of Adaman (barta boost), and Mahu (steals tp); her mag is a Panzer's tail I raised for her, her shield's a foie merge (again for the foie boost), and her armor is a hand-me-down guard wave (guess who she got that from...).

Of course, by this I don't mean to say that everyone who uses duped things or doesn't act like Demi isn't a good player (hell, my characters all use duped stuff...I can't help it, it's impossible to find the weapons I want and not have them be duped), I just want you conceited forces who think that ra-techs and duped dem forks/dark bridges are the only way to go to see that it's all how you work with the character.

I'd say you people would be better off not playing online if you're not going to help your team. And I'd also say that the people who complain about it should stop because complaining isn't going to make an idiot cast the spells you need. When no one casts sd/jz/resta for me, I cast them myself. Sure, it's not as strong, but it helps.

Maybe I don't make any sense to all you force-people who think you know how to play, but I think everyone reading this thread would do well to learn from my sister's example. It's all about TEAMWORK people.

[kat]

Wich reminds me of something - I don't do trades typically, but when I have something that's a rare I can't use/have a spare of, etc. and I play with someone who's awesome, I"m willing to give stuff to them.

Other day I was playing witha great team of people, and just gave away a DBsaber and a Stealth Barrier to them, because they wanted them, and they were awesome players...

And then in a seperate instance, i walked into a game, and the only other player came running up to me 'begging' for items and saying he had been corrupted.... He got nothing but me turning around and walking back into the lobby without saying a word.

'Nother time, I was playing with a jerk of a Jester force... he was asking for mats and the like. I had but wasn't about to give them to him because he just went around acting like he was the best, and gave no team support in either melee or support spells. He'd fight, but not in such a way that it helped anyone else in the game...


...something to think about...

[Kupi]

My opinion is thus: Forces are in no way obligated by law nor etiquette to use support spells, those being S/D/J/Z. However, to not do so is tactically stupid; since support spells do nothing but make the job easier for the Force themselves. Shifta and Deband are extremely TP-efficient techniques (look at the cost of Shifta and count the increase in damage by the meleers as damage... it does tons!), as are Jellen and Zalure. Deband and Jellen reduce damage taken by the team, reducing the need for Resta, which is a costly tech if used in excess (and unlike S/D/J/Z, it is a matter of etiquette to use it or not), and Shifta and Zalure increase the damage done by your fellow hunters, therefore reducing the need to use much costlier attack techs.

[GuerillaPimp]

Not the fo's job to cast reverser, eh? Considering ONLY fos can use reverser, I find that difficult to believe.

Notice i said "SOLEY" as in the only one. To be honest ALL chars should be support chars, and carry MOON ATOMIZERS, ever heard of those? I play my FO in response to my teammate actions, if every one is supporting and helping out, sure ill resta, and s/d faithfully, but if you wanna treasure hunt while im getting my asskicked, and then wanna say "JABARI will use resta" then i will respond with "No>Asshole". Do i see you ponying up money for 10 trifluids after i run out? I know that im ranting and all but, it just that, im not obliged to support YOU, if YOU arent helping the team either.

[Ryo_Hayasa]

i'm a FOmar, and i'm constantly bombared by my Team while i'm trying to keep myself and them alive with
"S/D"

come on, that gets old, can you see form a Fos side how degrading that is? are we nothing but Support?
just there to give the others a boost?
these people don't say please. infact why havea short cut in titled "S/D!" isn't "Shifta/Deband please" a bit better?

for the most part i can't go into Ult, even with my J/Z and S/D i can't live there, that i know of, my party once they get their boost they go on a Destroy everything, even when i'm having a good day and i'm about to score a loner kill a Hunter comes from behind me and steal my kill from me.
i'm sorry but i can't live on 80% exp for the rest of me PSO career.
people that ask for S/D i think shouldn't get it, most people (MOST) who chose a rare character like a RAcast and or FOmarl know what they are doing, and Most FOs (i'm speaking on their behalf so i left out the RAs and HUs) have Great heads on their shoulders.

if i see fit to give the team aconstant supply of Boost then i will. only if they are nice to me.
tick me off and expect nothing from me, Team work is acting as a Team, if you tick off a team member with selfless acts then there isn't a Team anymore. (this was not directed to anyone)

and no, droids don't "have to " alert others about traps. most of the time it's too late. and most don't listen, i have a andriod, and a shortcut for traps

"TRAPS WAIT" they keep running and they end up getting blow up. they don't die but, still...

basically everyone doesn't need to do anything for the team, unless they act as a team, not FO and Hunters/Rangers you have to act as that unit Forces/Hunters/Rangers
and no, just because a character is best at something doesn't mean they MUST be use it.
FOs aren't limited to support techs.
and Techs are more expensive than you think. think about it.
J/Z for every group of monsters.
Shift/Deband everyone few mintues
Attack Tech for every room (optional somewhat)
Resta constantly
Reverser now and then.

and well thats a lot of TP for some Characters, if not all the FOs, most FOs will run out of DIs and TRIs soon. and if on a bad day, they'll end up with only 13 tp and no fluids in the middle of caves because you had to "stay and support" most characters (cept andriods) won't part with items.
and i find it rather rude to ask for a fliud. i couldn't i'd feel like i was a rank newbie.

never call any class "useless" or "deadweight" a hunter without his sword is still a hunter (think of all the mechgun hunters out there)

a Ranger without a gun is still a ranger (all the katana swords you see RAmar with)

a FO who doesn't always support with good reason. is still a FO (meleeing forces)

maybe it's time to start a new trend, if the FO can't support you for unknown reason, support yourself (unless your a driod) every living type character knows Jellen and Zalure and some know Shifta and Deband, it may not be the best, but it's something.

finally yes i've been a HUne WAY longer than a force, and i usually adopt the role of the Force and Hunter, even when the Force is in the room, it helps them out, decreasing their TP useage.

[GuerillaPimp]

Ryo, you put it words what i was trying to do. thanks man. that helps a lot

[M_BlackHawk]

On 2003-05-19 19:58, GuerillaPimp wrote:

Okay, now that that's out of my system. Androids are in no way obliged to warn of traps, or to use their own traps. Just because you do that, doesn't mean everybody else has to.

Riiiight....You want me to cast shifta, deband, or resta for you after i just ran into a trap your monkey ass didnt shoot down??? Pfft, just better hope you dont get murked, cuz ill leave your ass there to rust



As for j/z I dont' understand why a fo wouldn't cast it, you get exp and it helps clear the room exponentially faster.

I play solo as a FO and rarely use j/z with very little trouble. Of course i have low levels of j/z and im only playing on very hard. Once i get to ultimate and have higher levels of j/z, then i may use them more regularly

Someone said TEAMWORK, meaning if i cant get near you, and there is someone with Resta nearby, let them cast it. It's not SOLEY the FO's job for casting resta, shifta, deband, or reverser. Just the same as if the 'droid is occupied, and i have on a sense plate, i can shoot down the trap while he handles his bizness. Thats what teamwork is about, it's more than just doing your part, its doing ANY action for the good of the team, regardless of who is "supposed" to do what...


Correction, bud. I've played since v1 on DC and I can tell you that now, in GC and Xbox versions, Reverser IS a FO's job, since that tech is force exclusive. In a battle like Olga Flow or Dark Falz, where someone is almost guaranteed to die, you really don't have the time to murk through the shortcut window to find moons. That's why a force, going into a boss battle, should set reverser on one of his or her buttons.

I was playing offline multi on normal mode falz with my nephew the other day, as a matter of fact, using my lvl 36 FOmarl and his lvl 19 HUmar. I even loaned him a mag to use from my RAcaseal. He was getting owned by delsabers and chaos bringers. Which is why I was glad I had reverser set on a button. Mind you, I do play Rhiana as a support force, meaning I specialize in Shifta/Deband/Jellen/Zalure/Resta/Reverser. I do, however, keep a decent level on my attack techs for offline singleplayer mode. A force should at all times, in a boss battle, keep reverser set to a button.

Now, on to androids, mates, resta, and traps. Droids do have a higher attack and defense rating than humans or newmen. HUcaseals even have a higher evasion rating than a HUnewearl (I've tested this theory mind you with Lara and Maya). One thing I've noticed about a droid is the fact that an androids traps can be especially effective. Consider this. In ruins, you're faced with NUMEROUS delsabers. What's the best thing to do? Easy, drop a freeze or confuse trap. Then wail away, or let the enemy wail away on each other, then finish them off with a partisan or sword.

Humans or newmen can't see traps, though. Droids can. In a team, if I'm using my HUcaseal or RAcaseal, I'll warn of traps, or even carry a shot to take out traps before the rest of my party gets hit by them.

It all depends on the individual. Some people are just too concerned with themselves that they won't consider the best interests of the team. If you see Rhiana online, be assured you've found a force that will support her team. Maya, my HUcaseal, or Kirumi, will always take out traps, and even set traps to help the team. Shoot, I even keep up Shifta/Deband with my HUnny, Lara.

My point is, if you're in an online TEAM, the key is to work WITH your team..and realize that you may have something to offer that is better than what your other teammates don't. Use that to yours and your team's advantage. Forces, don't be negligent of using Jellen/Zalure/Shifta/Deband. You will get xp for it, and still raise levels. It's not all about a Rafoie or Razonde light show, and your team will be better off for it. Droids, help out your team with traps.

later

M_BlackHawk

[Starseed]

Totally off subject kinda- but isnt Jellen and Zaluire weak anyway? By the time I cast J/Z, the enemies are dead. I could see J/Z being effective in easier modes, but in Ultimate its useless, unless of course your punk A$$ hunter level 80 trying to run the ruins- and then you're just stupid!!!

Know your limitations, dont expect a FO to wipe your A$$ all the time!

[Classix]

One thing I have noticed about Xbox PSO is that there are very very few FO's because of the warning when picking classes. Also, a good percentage of the FO's aren't really sure what they are doing. I can't fault a FOnewm for not keeping up S/D, but the other three, it would be nice.

As a RAmar I tend to play the role of FO quite often as most teams are three hunters and a ranger or two rangers and two hunters. I've become pretty good at keeping my crappy level 6 Shifta and level 11 Deband up and running most of the time and my level 7 Resta, while not impressive is definately welcome. I carry Trap Visions, but only because there are certain rooms I just know have traps from experience and playing a RAcast for so long. This doesn't help a lot in Episode II where I haven't figured it all out yet.

Is anyone obligated to cast S/D J/Z, etc.? No. But common courtesy and respect for your fellow players, nevermind the benefits to oneself, should make you want to cast it. The same goes for traps, even if you don't remove them, just at least acknowledge them. It's so easy to do on PSOX.

Thanks,

Classix - RAmar 60 PSOX
G.Cyber - RAcast 66 PSOGC (Unfortunate Demise)
Ahlia - HUnewearl 101 PSOv2



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Classix on 2003-05-21 08:05 ]</font>

[LadyRedComet]

I definitely agree. No one is going to force you to use s/d/j/z, but it helps a lot while on a team. Teamwork is the ultimate goal of the game anyway. Besides, if the force is too blind to see that their techs are way stronger (especially the support ones - try shifta lv. 20 and then try lv. 30 and see the increase in atp boost) and therefore would be better ones to use for the team, then I guess it's up to the RAs or the HUnewearls to take over the job of the FO. Kinda sad, if you ask me, but oh well.

[kat]

Correction, bud. I've played since v1 on DC and I can tell you that now, in GC and Xbox versions, Reverser IS a FO's job, since that tech is force exclusive. In a battle like Olga Flow or Dark Falz, where someone is almost guaranteed to die, you really don't have the time to murk through the shortcut window to find moons. That's why a force, going into a boss battle, should set reverser on one of his or her buttons.

M_BlackHawk



This does not apply solely to reverser though... going into falz on Very hard my hunter has Moons on a shortcut, and that can make the crucial seconds differene between the team surviving or dying. If I was too slow, and got hit too badly, then we'd be two down....

And I always make it a point to share the healing when I use Resta regardless of what character class I play. What I hate are those people who won't heal themselves at all and assume that I will do it for the whole time while they do the killing, just because I was kind enough to heal them before...

[klepto]

Just one more thing to add, I hate when a HUcast wades into a pack o' Delsabers with a half o' monomate worth of life, dies, then goes back to pioneer 2 because "I wasnt there to reverser him" when I was across the room, trying to melee on the Delsabers he couldnt get, so that I could get to him more quickly.

[kat]

On 2003-05-21 18:28, klepto wrote:
Just one more thing to add, I hate when a HUcast wades into a pack o' Delsabers with a half o' monomate worth of life, dies, then goes back to pioneer 2 because "I wasnt there to reverser him" when I was across the room, trying to melee on the Delsabers he couldnt get, so that I could get to him more quickly.



It's not just one class of people, or just androids, or anything... it's a specific class of players who seem to think they're (a) invincible or (b) followed around by their own personal healer...

[GuerillaPimp]

Correction, bud. I've played since v1 on DC and I can tell you that now, in GC and Xbox versions, Reverser IS a FO's job, since that tech is force exclusive. In a battle like Olga Flow or Dark Falz, where someone is almost guaranteed to die, you really don't have the time to murk through the shortcut window to find moons. That's why a force, going into a boss battle, should set reverser on one of his or her buttons

Remember that everyone has different playstyles and preferences. Personally for boss fights i like to use all my moons first, and then use reverser. That way i save TP for S/D. But as far as being SOLELY my job? Thats BS. If were at Dark Falz, and your allllll the way on the other side of the ring, you want me to run all the way the hell over that and moon/reverser you, when there is someone with moons on them right next to you? Does that really make sense?

[Raziel_Kai]

Players should just play as a team, strenghtening weaknesses and acting in concert.
Altough it's difficult to find good teammates, it is not impossible.
Each class should stick by their partners, no matter if they act as meat-shields, sniping away at the foes or casting time and again their spells.
I personally don't worry myself if the other people hog all the rares we find... not even in the least bit, since after all, if I want to go red box-hunting, I'd play offline.

BTW, if any of you want a HUcast in your team who's only interested in playing, chatting and generally have a good time in Ragol, just contact me... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Elusive_Llama]

Totally off subject kinda- but isnt Jellen and Zaluire weak anyway? By the time I cast J/Z, the enemies are dead. I could see J/Z being effective in easier modes, but in Ultimate its useless, unless of course your punk A$$ hunter level 80 trying to run the ruins- and then you're just stupid!!!


J/Z isn't weak, although Jellen is generally more useful than Zalure. Look at it this way...without Jellen, monsters in Ruins can smack you down in one hit. Throw on a level 20 Jellen and their hits just knock you back, giving you time to run away and avoid being surrounded. With level 30 Jellen (and level 30 Deband), they can barely hurt you, which is always a good thing.

I don't use Zalure very much with my Ramarl and Hunewearl, mostly because I only get time to cast Jellen on the group of monsters. However, Zalure can allow you to do quite a bit more damage than you usually do, and this becomes very noticeable when you're using mechguns, which hit up to 9 times.

You may be thinking of level 15 J/Z, which I think is weak in comparison to the other flavors.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Elusive_Llama on 2003-05-22 10:08 ]</font>

[LadyRedComet]

I've never played a force, but I know what you mean when you want to save your tp. And yeah, it's good to carry moons too (whoops, I'm being a hypocrite here, since I don't usually carry them...). But when I talk about reverser I mean the technique, not just bringing people back to life, and obviously the tech is the fo's job. Thought I'd back up my argument. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/cheese.gif

[Ryo_Hayasa]

ah yes the issue on Reverser.

if your close run and help them, if your a FO in the other room and they want you to stop what your doing and help them when the others are RIGHT there
thats non-sense.

also on bosses, if someone dies and you see the boss is on it's final attack/struggle DONT HIT THE BOSS, wait till the person that has died is back (unless that guy is a jerk, if so then well ^.^ sorry no exp for you loser)
the boss issue is VERY sensitive, many have lost 1000s od desevered exp because someone was Trigger (button) happy.
lastly the only thing a think all Hunters (by hunters i mean everyone FO HU RA ) should really try to have fun and get to know each other, like i say
PSO is all about meeting people around the world, learning new things. and communicating. thats why ican see why people would be mean online, it's a video game, can't we all have fun?

lastly, no matter what, i always try and look out for the droids, because they are so cool. heh, it takes taste to pick classes like FOmarl RAcast RAcaseal and possibly FOnewm, this is comming from a FOmar, i thought it would be better than a HUmar i wasa HUmar for a few weeks, oh well i didn't like it. now FOmars are everywhere.

ONE MORE THING!

Vega isn't full of Idiots, there are just alot there. i was on Vega for the first bit of PSO (X-mas) Vega 10 (so i wouldn't bump into too many dolts)