Force characters weak?

[SaitoH]

I started playing PSO with a force character, then switched to a hunter after I found some cool hunter weapons. Last weekend I went on a trading binge to get a couple of good wands for AVIENDHA (my force character). It is my opinion that character classes should stick to there exclusive weapons. Since there is little difference between classes. So i started playing her again and discovered some big holes in the whole force class.
Force character are meant for combat support BUT all the support spells are available to my hunter. This makes no sense to me. Not only that but hunters and rangers can use the same level spells as force characters......WHY? Sure non-force characters may have less Tp points but the difference is 1/3 to maybe 1/2. Pirotess(my hunter) has almost 700 tp and Aviendha (my force)has 1000 tp point. I should point out that there a 25 lvl difference though.
Some changes I would like to see in PSO are a spell cap of lvl 10 for non-force characters. No support spells except Ryuker for non-force. Grants and Megid for force only. Better wands. I have c-sorcerer's and psyco wand (the best 2) and feel that there should be something better.
Thanks for listening to my little rant. Any opinions ??

[wyatt]

Yeah, I think it may be agreed that there is little if any real advantage of a Force over other magic using characters. The extra magic power doesn't make up for the weapon/melee drawbacks, IMHO. But, this didn't stop me from creating a force character. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif Because it's still different, and fun. Harder though. I like the idea of some characters being harder to use than others.

[MsFortune]

i dont understand why forces have canes and stuff at all. we dont use them! why i'd even use a saber before a cane thing... all they do is boost mind a little... as for the TP thing itself... even with 700+TP, i always end up back in the looby to sell stuff before i use it all, so a hunter with a few hundred would be better... I'm guessing that maybe theres a mag advantage but i'm yet to find it.

[Fargo]

On top of all that, Hunters can get Bana mags, which are usually Force only - and the advantages of Bana are it's tendancy to make you invincible at tough moments, and it's high boost to your mind and TP (since you would have had to have fed it plenty of Mind-boosting food to get it)!

Though mine's turned to a godamn Apsaras now... grr! Want Bana Back! Want Bana Back!

[DaHumAn]

forces dont suck its how u play the game

[JayHale]

I use a force character, and they're extremely difficult to use. But like someone said above me, that makes it all the more challenging. I'm also a little perplexed over the whole cane/wand thing to, because everyone knows that forces aren't made for hand to hand combat. It would be nice if the canes or wands/cane actually casted magic at a distance, but no, you have to go up to the enemy and beat the crap outta them. I personally stick to long range weaponry such as varista (gotta love em') and egg blaster! Forces have been given the short end of the wand if you ask me. But I love my lvl 34 FoNewm and I wouldn't trade him for any other character.

[JJ]

At level 100 Forces are awesome. Their lowest stat is Defense which im trying to look for a Parasite Wear: Vajulla or something and then this would be fixed. But i have a mag with 151 Pow and my ATP maxes just like a hunters with certain weapons. Best weapon for a force has to be the soul eater. Trust me stick with your force. Their are also the most fun to play as.

[Zephyr]

I don't know why you keep posting that with maxed out pow forces are the equals of hunters... it's just not true. You do know ATP can go over 999 for hunters (you just can't see it), right?... here's the facts... hunters casting the buffing support spells deband and shifta with the same lvl as a force boost their stats an identical percentage... there is no difference. Hunter's ATP maxes out well over 200 points higher than a force... Forces can use only the crappiest of rare weapons. So what this means in the end is a lvl 100 force, with all his stats maxed, with shifta running, with a soul eater +35 does 190-320 pts of damage (I haven't played in a while but I think that range is about right) in V.Hard Ruins... where as a Hunter with let's say a Last Survivor or Flowen's +50-60% dark and shifta is hitting the group for 580-840... and those aren't even particularly rare hunter weapons. Forces just weren't meant to be melee fighters... let's just hope they make force spells MUCH more powerful in the append disk or they'll be abseloutely useless in Ultimate difficulty (they're somewhat laughable as it is in V.Hard Ruins).

[SaitoH]

Thanks for the replys! I don't hate force characters, they just don't have any real advantage. Although I guess being tougher to play could be considered an advantage http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif

JJ, I really don't want to play a force character like a hunter. I prefer to stick to class weapons only. That's why I got tired of playing Aviendha originally. I was using guns all the time and I already have a ranger. Since I picked up C-sorcerer's and Psyco wand I have been playing Aviendha all week.

Zephyr, the append disk does concern me as well. If my spells keep doing the same damage how many times is Aviendha going to have to cast a spell like Razonde to kill a big group on enimies on ultimate difficulty? It takes 5 spells to kill stuff on v-hard already. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_frown.gif

After all is said and done, NONE of this will stop me from playing my Aviendha. I have gained 17 levels this week. Level 100 here i come!

[Mazarin]

Two words:

Holy Ray. Nobody likes it except the person behind it ^_~

[SaitoH]

Nice sig Mazarin!

I do have a holy ray, but it is a gun so I won't use it. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_razz.gif

[Farenfal]

Well, there's no doubt whatsoever that Sega favored Hunters over the other two classes when creating PSO. Hunters, especially Hunewearls at the higher levels, are insanely powerful. I in fact stopped playing mine at 55th level due to boredom. I agree with Pirotess that Hunters shouldn't be able to use high level spells. It's thats simple.


Also, just wanted to say 'Hi' to Pirotess! It's your old friend, Pixie-Dust. How's it going? I'm on vacation for a couple of weeks so I won't be able to play (and I'm so bummed). See ya later.

Pixie-Dust - 20 Fonewearl
Nickel - 60 Ramar
Jihef - 73 Humar

[Farenfal]

Well, there's no doubt whatsoever that Sega favored Hunters over the other two classes when creating PSO. Hunters, especially Hunewearls at the higher levels, are insanely powerful. I in fact stopped playing mine at 55th level due to boredom. I agree with Pirotess that Hunters shouldn't be able to use high level spells. It's thats simple.


Also, just wanted to say 'Hi' to Pirotess! It's your old friend, Pixie-Dust. How's it going? I'm on vacation for a couple of weeks so I won't be able to play (and I'm so bummed). See ya later.

Pixie-Dust - 20 Fonewearl
Nickel - 60 Ramar
Jihef - 73 Humar

[Farenfal]

Well, there's no doubt whatsoever that Sega favored Hunters over the other two classes when creating PSO. Hunters, especially Hunewearls at the higher levels, are insanely powerful. I in fact stopped playing mine at 55th level due to boredom. I agree with Pirotess that Hunters shouldn't be able to use high level spells. It's thats simple.


Also, just wanted to say 'Hi' to Pirotess! It's your old friend, Pixie-Dust. How's it going? I'm on vacation for a couple of weeks so I won't be able to play (and I'm so bummed). See ya later.

Pixie-Dust - 20 Fonewearl
Nickel - 60 Ramar
Jihef - 73 Humar

[I_Kill_Sharks_all_day]

Forces are pointless, except for the challenge involved in them which turns to frustration once you hit very-hard. Forces, in the end, are nothing more than extremely weak hunters or rangers.

The 1 outstandinb problem is that spells become worthless very fast. Eventually my force turned to beating things with a soul eater because I could do more damage with that than any of my spells. I was level 77 and he could critical about 300, which is pitiful, but that is what a force ends up doing as it is the most damage he is able to do.

Here are the changes that would fix the force class:

1. Restrict Megid, grants, and all of the RA-spells to forces alone. No other class should be able to use these. This alone would make forces a much more valuable support unit especially in the mines where RAzonde is so important, and in RUINS where RAbarta is used a lot. On top of that, give forces at least 5 more levels of these spells that would put their damage up to at least 250, 300 preferably. This would fix the spell problem, making their techniques more powerful, and making the force the best support character.
Also the Tp of the other classes should be cut in half, so they couldn't use mass amounts of their own spells, which would once again make forces more useful for support.

2. The force weapons are useless. If the spells were fixed like I said in step 1, then raising mst would be much more important. Now to make all the force weapons useful, make sure all of them did at least one of the following:

a. Raise mst. Anywhere from 10 to 30 or more depending on how common the cane/wand was.

b. Raise techniques a level or two. The more common wands/canes could raise all techs by 1, while some of the more rare would raise them by 2 or 3.

c. Cut tp cost by 10% or greater. Some wands/canes could do this when equiped. I know c-sorceror's cane can do this, but I think common canes should have been able to do this as well.

If all of the force weapons, common and rare, had at least 1 of these features, then that would give them a reason to use a force weapon over a saber.


I don't see why these things weren't implemented in the first place. I see no sense in them letting hunters use spells as effectively as the force class, and I don't see why features such as cutting tp cost by 10% should be limited to only the rarest of force weapons. They should have had access to weapons like that in the beggining. And if anything, they could have at least restricted Megid and Grants to the force class.

Oh well. If you wanna know what happened to my force, the level 77 force, I deleted him because I realized he would never prove useful to anyone except for a convinient way of wasting moons.

[SaitoH]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying I_Kill_Sharks_all_day. These kinda changes should have been implemented to make forces more appealing. On the plus side Aviendha is now level 71 and climbing......

[Mayi]

Forces are only really good at high levels, Besides, if you use a magical piece or Technical Crozier, they allow you to cast spells without cost. Also, Forces are easily the most powerful character class, They can wipe out large clumps of enemies at a time, heck, in one game, I had some hunters telling me to quit because they couldn't get a hit in, They were 10 levels higher than me. Sure, they can be hard to use at times, but they are one of the stronger classes.

<font size=1>[ This message was edited by: Mayi on 2001-03-18 15:45 ]</font>

[SaitoH]

Farenfal, I don't remember playing with a character named pixie-dust. Hmmmm there have been a number of players masquerading as Pirotess, mayhaps one of my dopplegangers? Or maybe I was drinking too much beer when I played with you..........

Mayi, I too enjoy vaporizing large groups of baddies. Too much fun http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif

Well back to playing PSO.

[I_Kill_Sharks_all_day]

Mayi, force is terrible. You think a force can clear a room out? Watch a ranger with a final impact or a hunter/ranger with a spread needle. Heck, even a hunter with a dragon slayer will clear a room out much much faster.

[VampireLR]

Well maybe when the append disk come, Sega will rantify these setbacks. Like spells only a force can use etc, etc.

[Fionne]

Things they could have done to make forces better:

1: Restrict certain magics (Grants, Megid, etc.)

2: Spells way to weak! (at least double the damage)

3: Perhaps a larger array of spells....wow damage and support....what about summoning (would be so sweet)... or Necromactic spells (providing thats a word)... even a trap vision spell... gimme something sega!

Just ranting all, everyone can wish... hell knows this would be cool... but I know it'll
never happen magic users are always overlooked...

[VampireLR]

A summoning spell would be cool but its way too much like Final Fantasy 11. They're coming out with an online aspect too where you create your own characters. It was suppose to go on FF10. But it didn't work out but I digress. I think summoning would add a whole new aspect would totally spice up a FOrce

[Lamalas]

One thing that they're adding with the append disk is an easier way to switch out equipment, weapons, and techniques. I think a cool idea to implement would be weapons that cast spells without TP cost (I know they already exist), but...*here's the idea*...they had 3 hit combos with the spells.

Now I don't know if the weapons are already like that because I've never found one, but it's still a cool idea. Make more of them too...make them cast the high level spells...

Can you imagine a cane/rod/wand that casts Zonde on it's first hit, Gizonde on it's second, and Razonde on it's third...

When I say hit also, I don't mean up close and personal...*shrug*...then us FOrces could conserve our TP for really useful spells...like Resta and the Revive spell.

[MsFortune]

so should i delete my lvl 31 force now? throw away 100 hours of hard offline play? or buy a new VMU and start a hunter... I presume that since hunters are the bomb, the cyborg ones suck.

[Lamalas]

I would suggest buying a new VMU. I've got three of them and I'm thinking about creating a new character, but I don't know yet.

Plus, you never know what will be added to the ver 2.0 disk, so if they beef up Forces a whole lot...you'll still have your Force http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif

[SaitoH]

Aviendha is still rocking along, lvl 75 now.

I know you are just joking Msfortune, don't give up. We all know that force characters are weak but that's irrelevant. It's all about playing the character you want to play. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_razz.gif

I started this thread just to vent some frustration, not to knock the force class. How about new idea's on how sega should improve the force class, not "force character's suck".

Lamalas, the psycho wand is pretty much what you are descibing. It randomly cast zonde, barta and foi. The problem with it is its random. Sometimes I'll hit an enemy 3 times for zero damage. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_frown.gif Higher level spells for a wand would be real cool though.

Fionne, I play a necro in Diablo 2 (shhhh, Its a non-Dc game) and I think summoning creatures would be awesome. The pure horror of the undead rappy army........MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!

[Lamalas]

Necros rock...I have one in Diablo2 and EverQuest. Summon a hoard of those damned mosquitos to attack the Dragon...hehe

What I would like, is a cane/rod/wand (wand would seem more likely) to cast spells as their attacks, not randomly when you attack. That way you could sit back from afar and use 3-hit combos of spells.

Or even--got another idea!--a spell that stole TP. Then there could be a cane/rod/wand that cast that spell when you pressed the attack button.

Thing is, I'm too frail at lvl 52 to be running up and whacking things, but I'm too poor to afford Trifluids all the time. 900 TP is a lot of TP, but it goes quickly in VHard, trying to keep everything dead...then every couple of rooms having to Ryuker back to town to buy more Trifluids.

Yes, I could cast one spell and let everyone else kill the stuff and leach the exp, but I want to actually contribute some--other than Shifta/Deband/Resta.

[Mistkerl_Zwo]

My level 31 hunewearl is a 100x stronger than my lvl 80+ force... there is something wrong with that.

Forces should have a super high defense rating, i haven't seen anyone mention that. But considering that the get nothing for hp, they should be able to avoid hits.

I don't agree with all these comments, that forces are for 'advanced' players who know what they are doing. They are only challenging because they are handicapped by poor planning from sega. That isn't a good way to make a challenge, thats a bad way to design a game.

[MechDan]

For playing around with multiple characters, I strongly recommend Sega's 4x Memory card. It only costs a little more than a VMU, but you can have 4 characters (and your gamesave woes for other DC games are now over!).

As for the supposed huge advantage of the Hunters--yeah yeah if you've got a spread needle you'll max out significantly higher than any other class. If you have any self respect, though, you won't use a spread needle! Very rare weapons shouldn't be factored in when considering character balance. They're supposed to be VERY RARE.

That said, my spread needle peeve merely tips the balance back in favor of Rangers (who get cool common rare shotguns). Forces are still left out. Play a force because of the challenge and/or because they're so cuuuuuute!

[Neojin]

RABARTA PEOPLE!!! hehe Freeze those mofos everyone will love you for it. I just got my level 15 this weekend and now im 50/50 on freezing, its sooo much easier to kill a frozen target dont you think?

GUNS!!! Darn you forces and your pretty canes, like people said unless your using one that casts spells they are worthless.

Heart Repeater full grinded, you wanna see some damage there you go. I have one that has 30s to Native and Machines, and a Lockgun that has 30 to Dark and 20 to hit (it soooo owns in the ruins 300 a pop)

Check those percents people http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif

My lay out in the Ruins is Shifta or Deband (I usualy split this up with peeps) Resta, Anti, ReBarta, Fluid or another nuke and hard attack.

Only thing that pisses me off really about my Force is the Dark Falz battle on v hard. I still cant survive even with 3 saints. But at 270hp at level 52 who wouldnt hehe.

[Lamalas]

I don't know what FOnewm you've been looking at, but we're most definately NOT cute. It's like SpaceBalls..."Why didn't anyone tell me my ass was so big?!"

Oh well...guess I'll have to live with it...

[Neojin]

LMAO

Thanx Lam i just spit coffee out my nose that burns!!!

Thats why i picked a cute wittle FOnewearl, shes so tiny and wuvable wit her cut wittle pigtails and sneakers http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif

[SaitoH]

Damn Lamas, muwahahahaha. That's I didn't pick a FOnewm in the first place. They are in desperate need of a good taylor. I prefer the FOmarl, although I've told I look like a 'shroom from behind.

Yeah yeah Neojin, wittle FOnewear's are Kawaii. Did I type wittle? Crap, I feel so dirty. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_razz.gif