Piping.... Cheating or part of the game?

[TheDing]

personally i don't do the telepipe trick and i wont even bother trying to find out. Because i think that it is a cheap and degrading way of find items. My opinion is that it takes the fun out the game fast. I would rather spend 30 hours of leveling to find items than spending an afternoon trying piping out. Is it just me or am I the last Legit hunter out here?

[Tsudo_Plat]

I kind of agree. But tricks like this don't really bother me. Besides, they're missing out on exp during the times they are piping, plus you don't realize how INCREDIBLY boring it is to sit there and pipe for something for like 2 hours straight, then have it drop something crappy!! OMFG!! You'll want to break something after that!!

Besides.... why do you care what other ppl are doing? If you are getting all your stuff without the pipe trick then the hours on your game will prove it.

[Bit]

The Telepipe trick is in some of Sega's PSO Guides, so if they say it's alright, then it's fine with me.

[ShadowCaster]

Ok, listen, it's a strategy not a cheat or code. If you think about it, it's no different than a) Doing Hell Cows in Diablo 2 or b) Constantly battling Wild Pokemon for money. I put it into terms for I guess "both lifestyles". The little kids game, and the more cult classic. But if your the kind of person who plays sports think about it this way. Bunting in kickball/baseball when people think your going to hit hard. It's a strategy to get you farther faster and gets you what you want with less stress on you. Well ok I admit that was a stretch, but as Bit said it is in the ST's guides and it's on PSOW which won't allow codes like duping. And just to put it into simple terms.

Cheats: Things that can be done in game that wasn't oringinally stated in the manual or that the game's producer/publisher/creator's will not make public. :/

Code: Buttons pushed to cause a cheat

Trick: Piping TRICK

Ok that's it, I know good and well I will have mny head bitten way off for what I said and within the next 3 posts all the things will be disproven so...

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/sprite.gif

[Stalfos333]

I don't see telepiping as any worse than quiting quests before collecting money for it. The game obviously intends for you to play through each quest once, then offers the bonus of being able to replay them once they are all beaten. That's the incentive.

Telepiping is just seeing enemies over and over again, and the game is set up so that that is how Rare enemies are supposed to be found. It doesn't change anything about the game, nor does it make you any more likely to see a rare enemy. It's just you trying to see as many of that enemy as possible.

[Dhylec]

On 2003-07-16 09:57, TheDing wrote:
Because i think that it is a cheap and degrading way of find items. My opinion is that it takes the fun out the game fast. I would rather spend 30 hours of leveling to find items than spending an afternoon trying piping out. Is it just me or am I the last Legit hunter out here?

tho i dont do piping, but i dont have anything against it..
some items are too rare to find easily so ppl device a way to have better chance getting it..
after 1 or 500 pipes to get the item, it is still good, legit & valuable as it is..
only when ppl start duping then it degraded & that's cheating!

[eXo]

Im not going to come in here and repeat what everyone else has already said,its not really cheating because its in the pso strategy guide it even suggested to use the TP trick. The Tp trick has been around since sega released PSO on dreamcast. If they really felt time was some kind of illegal exploit they would have taking measures to prevent it. Honestly if you factor in your actual chance to stumble across a rare enemy by the chance of it dropping a red box. The odds would simply be stacked way to high against you,even now people pipe for rare monsters for well over 30,40, 50 who knows how many monsters and still do not recieve a red box. I have only seen two Red Slimes and i have had this game since day one *LMAO*. I refuse to pipe for him,i think the reason sega left this trick alone and even encouraged it,was so that people would not have a reason or need to dupe since they had a better chance at finding the item themselves. But its unfortunate that some people are simply cheaters no matter what http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif .
*Speaking of cheaters i wonder if this post belongs in the cheaters from instead of this one*



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: eXo on 2003-07-16 15:43 ]</font>

[Dragon_Knight]

Its fine by me. I've run into three rare enemies without the TP trick in well over 100's of hours of just playing the game. It was a red slime that dropped a cure/para. I if I didn't do the TP trick I wouldn'tr have nearly as many Al rappy rares. Unfortunatly I still haven't found any nar lillies outside of the Temple.

[TheDing]

all i'm saying is that without the tp trick, I sing "Happy happy joy joy" 40 times everytime i find a rare, PD or not. TP must has it's advantages but it reminds of when i first started playin Diablo and then my friends found out about the dupe code. After that, the game got old real fast. I know it's like not the TP code, but it some ways it reminds me of it.

[eXo]

Hmmm oh ok i kind of understand where you are coming from, but not all the way because to dupe means you dont have to find the item *LOL* atleast piping is alot of hard work.BTW are you going to be making a return to Diablo 2 when the version 1.10 patch comes out ?

[Skankhair]

To me, it's cheating.

<rant>

Duping, using hacked items, piping for items, piping for EXP, the repeat boss trick etc... are all cheating.

I do them, and I don't care if other people do them, but they are all forms of cheating. Many official guides have CHEAT codes in them. Just because Sega says it's okay, doesn't mean it's not cheating. id says it's olay to use God Mode in Quake. But it's still cheating.

Piping is exploiting the progamming of the game to form an advantage over other players that don't use the exploit. Just like duping. It's just as bad, and definitly cheating.

If you hardcore "legit" players want to feel good about yourself by saying piping isn't cheating, fine. I don't want you to realize how empty your life is (so empty that you have to play a game "legit" to feel good about yourself). But in my mind, you are a cheater.

I know someone might counter by saying "ah, but with piping, you actually find the item." So what? In PSO you NEVER earn items you find. They drop by chance, not skill. Piping to find an item takes no more work or skill than duping, recieving a duped item etc... And the same goes for finding an item legit.

You don't earn items in PSO. You get lucky. Just like someone that wins the lotto. They didn't work for it- They won it by chance.

This is why the pipe trick is no better than duping, but also why both the pipe trick and duping are no worse than finding an item legit.

You could find an item in 1 try, or 1,000,000. It's luck. The amount of skill you have doesn't matter. The amount of time you spend is random.

Duping is cheating. Pipping is cheating. But neither of them are dishonorable. They just have a chance at saving you time. Finding items legit just means you MAY have spend more time. It doesn't mean you have more skill, or earned it. You may have spent less time and got lucky than someone that traded for a dupe, duped themself, or pipped.

</rant>



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-16 18:07 ]</font>

[Axle]

I'm going to have to agree with what Bit said earlier. If Sega brings the Telepipe trick out in the open and shows people how to do it then it is just fine.

My friend calls things like this a glitch. He says it's "glitching" not cheating. You are just using what the programers gave you. In this case it is a more reasonable way to get items. Besides some people get what they want while others just keep trying and they may never get it...

[Skankhair]

Then, going by your logic, duping wasn't cheating either. Nor is the boss repeat trick. Yes Sega patched those out of the game, but whether Sega thinks something is okay or not doesn't make it cheating or not. Again, most developers think codes are okay, yet they are still cheating (usually called cheat codes).

Duping and pipping are the same thing. Exploiting the programming to form an advantage. If one isn't cheating, than niether are.

[VulpesMundi]

It's not cheating, and there's a very simple and logical explaination why. You're not guaranteed to see a rare enemy, nor are you guaranteed to get the item from the rare enemy if it does appear. Cheating is manipulating the game to immediately do something beyond what you can normally do (ie. create something out of nothing, copy something, steal something, etc.). Since rare enemies are random, and the TP trick never guarantees that this random appearance will even happen (just like normally running through and killing enemies), there's no cheat involved at all. Consider Fake in Yellow. You could run through and see a Pal Rappy in the first room, the last room, the fifth run, or never at all. If you TP'd, you could see a Pal Rappy on the first pipe, the fifth pipe, the hundredth pipe, or never at all. They're the same thing in the end. The only difference is that either you kill slowly and earn experience and items along the way or you don't kill or earn experience and items and simply sit in the same room piping while you do something else (like watch TV or chat/surf on the PC). There's no cheating involved. Period.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2003-07-16 21:54 ]</font>

[eXo]

Ah correction my friend it is just insane, to try and compare the tp trick to duping and use it as a form of justifacation and ill give you the reason. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

A. Sega had already factored in the tp trick when developing Ep I & II, therefore the games drop rate was preadjusted to make the tp trick much more less productive then in the past. The tp trick was self implamented and sega made the game preregulated out of the box which means they still have a form of control over the situation.

on the other hand

B.The boss repeat trick,dupe trick, trade window trick and any an other gamer created *exploit* was never ever intened to exsist or be used for that matter. Sega has no precalculated regulation over them which makes them 100 % illegal period end of story.

And as far as your attempt to say games like , quake,unreal tournament, and whatever else you may be thinking of goes being allowed to use GOD mode.
Whenever theese developers decide to have official online tournaments, they also have the serverside ability to activate anti cheat detection programs which disable the use of GOD mode etc...etc..
so that justifacation does not really hold water either.

[eXo]

Wow Vulpes you beat me to the punch,anyway how have you been?by the way i could not have come up with a more logical reason on why the two are different, well said my friend.

[Octavian]

DUPING does not involve random chance
HACKING does not involve random chance
PIPING FOR EXP does not involve random chance....you see where i'm going with this.

Piping for rare enemies does. lets not get confused, please.

[Skankhair]

VulpesMundi- Whether something is a cheat or not has nothing to do with how sucessful it is. Piping doesn't always work, but neiter does inputting random code to find items while hacking. Still cheating though.

eXo- An exploit is an exploit, and if that exploit gives you an advantage, it's a cheat. Period. By definition.

Just because Sega knows about the pipe trick, doesn't make it less of a cheat. Actually, the fact that they adjusted the drop rate to make up for the pipe trick (which puts people that don't do it at a disadvanatge) makes it MORE of a cheat.

My argument about God codes makes perfect sense. You said that because Sega knew about and published the pipe trick that it was not a cheat. Well, id knows about and publishes the God code in Quake. It's still a cheat. It's your argument that doesn't hold water. Sorry.

There should be no question or discussion about it. The pipe trick is an exploit that gives an advantage. A cheat. Just as much as duping is. If you disagree with me, you disagree with the English language, and are misusing it.

"DUPING does not involve random chance
HACKING does not involve random chance
PIPING FOR EXP does not involve random chance....you see where i'm going with this.

Piping for rare enemies does. lets not get confused, please. "

Actually, hacking does involve random chance. And to a degree, so does duping. At least, the people that figured out how to dupe sure didn't know what methods would work.

But the chance of something working, as I explained above, doesn't determine whether it's a cheat or not.

Fox and eXo, I have read a lot of your posts, and respect you both, but you are both either in denial and don't want to believe you are cheaters, or just don't understand the English language.

The pipe trick is a cheat. By definition. Period. Whether you think it's good, bad, harmful, harmless, a-okay, terrible, etc... is subjective. But the way words are defined is not up to you. The culture as a whole has decided what "cheat" means, and the pipe trick is a "cheat" in the most literal sense.

None of you have made a reasonable, logical argument as to why the pipe trick isn't a cheat. I know you don't want to accept you are a cheater, but not doing so makes you something far worse.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-17 01:33 ]</font>

[SubstanceD]

Piping...

I have nothing against people who pipe for Rare enemies since as Vulpes pointed out it is not cheating because you are not guaranteed to find anything ( I piped for 3 and 1/2 hours last night while trying to find a Mil Lilly and get a Sange and decided to quit at at 2:00 am because I was not finding jack so I know what Vulpes means ). Normally I would not do the piping thing since I have never had any luck with it and besides I prefer normal gameplay but I was feeling pretty shitty last night and I was determined not to leave Ultimate Caves without some sort of pay off ( I am still desperate for my Red Sword or a Chain Sawd and they still won't drop). Sometimes I wonder what all the hipe is about this trick, it never works for me...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SubstanceD on 2003-07-17 11:58 ]</font>

[Malkavian]

I don't consider it cheating. The game is made this way. And you can play it in different forms. If TP trick is cheating we could say that use a powerful weapon in low difficulties is cheating?

There are things that we can think are bad or make the game more boring but aren't cheating. I have never used the TP trick. It reduces rare enemys and its drops rarity a lot. When I find a rare enemy I want to be surprised, not because I piped for it. is my choice, my way to play, nothing more.

[eXo]

Hmmm o'kay its obvious that your mind is made up,but as the last logical attempt for me to explain exactly why,there is a defferience between the tp trick and duping and here we go again.

A. People who use the TP trick as you put it gain a very slight advantage over people who do not. But they are restricted to retrieveing a very very limited arsenal of weapons/items,what is the best that we can get i believe the top "4" items that are obtainable by the tp trick are.

1.1975 Agito
2.Lavis Cannon
3.Heavens Punisher
4.Psycho Wand

Now please do not get me wrong those are great items but the chances are that 70-75% of the people using tp trick will never find any of those.You will never catch a legit Tp trick user running around with a hacked out TJ sword.*All hackers do* my point is that call it what you want, but tp trick users have no major effect on the pso economy.
The last time i checked the rules of videogaming, "a cheat was something that had a direct effect,on someone elses gaming experience". Now i know what you are going to say,and it goes something like this"so if i dupe for MYSELF then im not having a direct effect on someone elses gaming experience?. That is also inncorrect because,if you play online or ever attempt to play online,and have duped out stuff like the TJ Sword, double cannon etc..etc.. then you have a immediate effect on fellow gamers experience,because you lower the trade value of those items in the economy.

B. Once again on the other hand dupers have every single one of those and ,multiple versions of them several times over. If you pipe for a great item the last thing you will ever do is trade it away. Dupers just willingly give them away like water, *Dupers are what killed the economy*. a tp trick user might get one heavens punisher in like 4 months a duper gets like 10+ heavens punishers in ten minutes are less. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

C. In my opinion its like this if you tell someone to go take ten dollars out of your wallet,and you are aware that they will do it then its no big deal.
But if someone goes behind your back and takes 10 dollars out of your wallet then its considered stealing,the same way that dupers and hackers stole the flame garment. Out of segas wallet full of items without there permission, about three months before it was suppose to be released.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: eXo on 2003-07-17 13:31 ]</font>

[UsP]

I think that the TP trick isn't cheating just like others said, becuase Sega put it in their knowingly... Sega didn't put duping or other cheats in the game on purpose...

[Skankhair]

Another round of posts, and again none of them show logic.

"since as Vulpes pointed out it is not cheating because you are not guaranteed to find anything"

Then hacking isn't cheating because you never know what some random digits will do. And looking for new dupe methods isn't cheating because you never know what will work.

"I don't consider it cheating. The game is made this way. And you can play it in different forms. If TP trick is cheating we could say that use a powerful weapon in low difficulties is cheating? "

Using a powerful weapon isn't an exploit. Pipping is. However, yes, it can be argued that twinking is cheating.

"People who use the TP trick as you put it gain a very slight advantage over people who do not."

Exactly. That's the point. Using a little extra pine tar on your bat only gives you a slight advantage, but it's still cheating.

"Now please do not get me wrong those are great items but the chances are that 70-75% of the people using tp trick will never find any of those."

As I explained above, the chances of success don't matter. By piping, you have a higher chance of getting a good item. That has an effect on the PSO trade economy and gives you better odds at finding a good item than someone that doesn't use the exploit. That is, by definition, a cheat.

"The last time i checked the rules of videogaming, "a cheat was something that had a direct effect,on someone elses gaming experience"."

Wrong. It doesn't have to have an effect on anyone else. A God mode cheat is a cheat, but can be used in single player. Cheating is using an exploit (something that is not a part of the gameplay) to gain an advantage. This includes codes, duping and purposely regenerating enemies.

"Out of segas wallet full of items without there permission, about three months before it was suppose to be released."

Again, whether Sega condones a cheat or not, doesn't make it more or less of a cheat. Many developers publish cheats.

"I think that the TP trick isn't cheating just like others said, becuase Sega put it in their knowingly... Sega didn't put duping or other cheats in the game on purpose..."

Once AGAIN, id put the God mode cheat in Quake on purpose. It's still a cheat. Your argument doesn't hold water.

Look guys, by DEFINITION, the pipe trick is a cheat. PERIOD. Deal with it.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-17 18:26 ]</font>

[Octavian]

ok, so chances dont matter? so, i am then cheating by playing heat sword over and over in order to find hand gun milla. also, telepip trick doesnt involve using "some random digits" it involves your controller, you gc/xbox, and your pso disc. no hacking tools. if it was meant to be it would have come in the box.also, telepiping out to pick up some difluids must also be cheating.

[Skankhair]

"ok, so chances dont matter? so, i am then cheating by playing heat sword over and over in order to find hand gun milla."

No, because the Heat Sword Quest is GAMEPLAY, not an EXPLOIT. Got it?

"also, telepip trick doesnt involve using "some random digits""

I never said it did. I said hacking involves a chance of failure, just as the pipe trick does.

"it involves your controller, you gc/xbox, and your pso disc. no hacking tools. if it was meant to be it would have come in the box."

Cheat codes can be done without hacking tools. They are still cheats.

"also, telepiping out to pick up some difluids must also be cheating."

Telepiping to restock is GAMEPLAY. You are not exploiting the regenerating enemies.

God guys, learn fucking English. It's a cheat. Deal with it. I know are all so fucking fragile that the fact that you have cheated (oh my God, what if your Mommy find out), hurts you. But you have to accept it.

By the very FUCKING DEFINITION OF THE WORD, the pipe trick is a CHEAT! Period. Now shut the fuck up. None of you could make a single argument that didn't suck shit. I blasted every last one of your points out of the water. You look far worse than a cheater. You look like damn fools.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-17 18:34 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

You claim that others can't understand the correct meaning of a certain word and yet you can't even use the correct meaning of a word.

[Bit]

Skankhair - Let's try to get along, eh?

You have your opinions, and others have theirs. No use bickering over something so juvenile.

[Skankhair]

Kal- I am using the word correctly. Welcome to this world. Do you go the same school as the rest of the ignorant people in this topic? You need to find a new one. Oh, and try to get out more- you hear a lot more words that way. You might even hear a real human use the word "cheat", and then you'll begin to understand.

Bit- I would agree, BUT, it's NOT a matter of opinion. How words are defined is OBJECTIVE. They are wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, taste or preference. How the general public uses a word is how it is defined. The majority rules in this case. They (a few people in this topic) are using the word incorrectly.

I know I got a bit "moody" (look under my avatar), but I feel they deserved it. To post on a forum without the ability to read, IMO, is not right.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-17 18:58 ]</font>

[TheDing]

how about this for logic then... TPing brings the level of fun down to none because of the constant up and down thingy. While just playin the game out result into a better lvl of excitement(a.k.a. thrill of the hunt.)TP trick/code/whatever is not fun and kills the point of the game, it nothing to do about chance.

[jediknight007]

Yet another thread about whether something is cheating or not. It looks like one day, everything will be cheating. Hope that day doesn't come...

[Bit]

On 2003-07-17 18:54 Skankhair


Kal- I am using the word correctly. Welcome to this world. Do you go the same school as the rest of the ignorant people in this topic? You need to find a new one. Oh, and try to get out more- you hear a lot more words that way. You might even hear a real human use the word "cheat", and then you'll begin to understand.

Bit- I would agree, BUT, it's NOT a matter of opinion. How words are defined is OBJECTIVE. They are wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, taste or preference. How the general public uses a word is how it is defined. The majority rules in this case. They (a few people in this topic) are using the word incorrectly.

I know I got a bit "moody" (look under my avatar), but I feel they deserved it. To post on a forum without the ability to read, IMO, is not right.




Actually. Isn't that Your opinion of if they are so wrong? Many who do use the telepipe trick are under their own opinion of if they are cheating, and if they aren't cheating. So yes. This IS a matter of opinion. All you seem to be doing is arguing with everyone who uses this trick.

Your obviously against it. And that's fine. Don't try to force your Opinion on others. It tends not to go over well in the long run.

As said before. Let's try to get along.

[Skankhair]

No, I'm not against it at all.

Whether it is right or wrong IS a matter of opinion.

But once again, whether it is a "cheat" or not is a matter of fact. How words are defined are matters of fact, not opinion. The pipe trick is a cheat. To say otherwise is to be wrong.

I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm not telling anyone what is right or wrong (in the moral sense). I am saying that the pipe trick is a cheat. That is a fact. If you disagree, you are wrong.

You can't say 1+1=3 or "squares have 6 sides" then claim you aren't wrong because it's a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact in those cases, as well as this. Words and symbols have meanings that are decided by the culture as a whole. The meanings aren't open to matters of taste or preference. How the majority understands them is how they are correctly used.

Squares have 4 sides, not 6, because the symbols and words used in that sentence have meanings. The same goes for the word "cheat". A person doesn't decide those meanings. The culture does. The majority does. The majority is a number. Whether a group is the majority or not is objective (and can be objectivly measured). What that majority understands as the meaning or a word, is what the word is defined as in that community. The telepipe trick is a cheat in all communities that speak the language in which "cheat" is used. When it comes to langauge, disagreeing with the majority makes you wrong.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-17 19:19 ]</font>

[Bit]

Aye. And it is your opinion that it is a cheat, is it not? Many people don't believe it's considered a cheat, more of as a trick. Tricks aren't always cheats.

Cheats are more defined as a code. Something you turn on, or imput. Like invincibility. Or Infinite ammunition.

This is something in the game that hasn't been modified. Therefore, it's more a 'Trick' then a 'Cheat'.

[Soukosa]

On 2003-07-17 18:54, Skankhair wrote:
Kal- I am using the word correctly. Welcome to this world. Do you go the same school as the rest of the ignorant people in this topic? You need to find a new one. Oh, and try to get out more- you hear a lot more words that way. You might even hear a real human use the word "cheat", and then you'll begin to understand.

Who said I was talking about the word "cheat"?

[excecutor]

yes, shainkar, in the literal dictionarial (is that even a word?) definition of the word "cheat", the TP trick may be considered a "cheat." but in the world of PSO, the definition of the word "cheat", is somthing that sonic team does not allow, or does not approve of. although this may not be 100% accurate, because this is a very fine line of what sonic team approves of and doesnt, maybe it will help the thread, i dunno just some thoughts.

[Skankhair]

"Aye. And it is your opinion that it is a cheat, is it not? Many people don't believe it's considered a cheat, more of as a trick. Tricks aren't always cheats."

No, it's not my opinion. It's a fact. The telepipe trick is a cheat. That's a fact. If someone doesn't think it's a cheat, they are wrong. It's not subjective. Language is objective.

"Cheats are more defined as a code. Something you turn on, or imput. Like invincibility. Or Infinite ammunition."

Then duping isn't a cheat. Yet it is. So your argument is flawed.

"This is something in the game that hasn't been modified. Therefore, it's more a 'Trick' then a 'Cheat'."

You don't have to modify the game to cheat.

"Who said I was talking about the word "cheat"?"

It's the word in question here. Are you lost?

[Bit]

All your doing now is arguing.

I'd suggest stopping, unless you'd want a mod to be involved. This thread is becoming more then just spam now.




No, it's not my opinion. It's a fact. The telepipe trick is a cheat. That's a fact. If someone doesn't think it's a cheat, they are wrong. It's not subjective. Language is objective.



Ok then. Show me proof that Sonic Team says this is a cheat. Go ahead. I'd love to see it.

[Skankhair]

"yes, shainkar, in the literal dictionarial (is that even a word?) definition of the word "cheat", the TP trick may be considered a "cheat." but in the world of PSO, the definition of the word "cheat", is somthing that sonic team does not allow, or does not approve of. although this may not be 100% accurate, because this is a very fine line of what sonic team approves of and doesnt, maybe it will help the thread, i dunno just some thoughts."

That's my point. In all English speaking cultures, the telepipe trick is a cheat. If a small minority disagrees, they are wrong. Why? Because in language, words are defined by their popular usage and understanding.


People can say the pipe trick isn't a cheat. But by doing so, they are misusing the word "cheat", and their statement is wrong.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-17 19:25 ]</font>

[Skankhair]

"All your doing now is arguing."

That's all this thread has ever been. A discussion.

"I'd suggest stopping, unless you'd want a mod to be involved. This thread is becoming more then just spam now."

You lost the argument, so you want to call a mod? C'mon Bit, just accept that I am right. That will end the argument. The pipe trick isn't a cheat because I think it is. It's a cheat because the culture as a whole thinks it is. They (including us) decide what a word means. Not each of us as indiviuals, but the majority. Whether you and I like it or not, the pi;pe trick is a cheat. If you want to change that fact, you'll need to change a lot of minds.

"Ok then. Show me proof that Sonic Team says this is a cheat. Go ahead. I'd love to see it."

Prove that they don't. Go ahead, I'd love to see it.

Once AGAIN, whether ST approves of the trick or not HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER IT IS A CHEAT OR NOT! Can you understand that?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-17 19:28 ]</font>

[Bit]

They don't outlaw it. It's in guides of the game, and you can go check their website, there is nothing there that says otherwise.

And They made the game, so I'm sure what they say goes.

Can you understand that?

[Skankhair]

Sega doesn't get to redefine words. Sorry. Majorities do, not developers.

Sega never said it wasn't a cheat. They allow it, just as id allows the God mode CHEAT. Developers allow cheats all of the time. So your argument that the pipe trick isn't a cheat because Sega allows it makes no sense.

None of your arguments hold water. Give it up.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-17 19:31 ]</font>

[Bit]

LoL.

You amuse me, and your ignorance shows. It's hilarious that you can't just say "Okay fine. Some people think it's not cheating, I think it is, and that's that."

I'm done arguing with children, post to hearts content.

[Skankhair]

It's funny that you call me ignorant, when you are the one that's wrong. Are you so insecure that you can't admit defeat? Sad. If I'm a child, then you just got your ass owned by a child. In a debate no less. Maybe it's time for you to hit the books. maybe in doing so you'll realize how childish it is to end a discussion by taking your ball and going home- just because you know you can't win.

People can think the pipe trick isn't a cheat all they want. That doesn't make it true. Some people used to think the world was flat. That didn't make them right, nor did it make their belief an opinion.

You don't understand the difference between opinion and fact. Subjective and objective. These are very fundamental things. You need to go to school. NOW!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-17 19:38 ]</font>

[TheDing]

Whoa let's calm down a bit here. We all are entitled to our opinions. I think that the TP glitch/code/secret/part of the game/whatever still turns the tides to your advantage, which was not MEANT to be in the game, but behold it is. Morally acceptable or not, is not in question here but whether it is cheating to the purpose of the game, fellow hunters of PSO, and to yourself was. I can see why hunters might use TP, i mean I get angry when i get no rare monsters/items to appear by doing regular runs in Ult. I guess they use it to find one.

[Octavian]

The NBA doesnt approve of traveling, though they do allow dribbling. So, traveling would be cheating, dribbling isnt. Sonic team approves of TP trick, but not of hacking, so....fill in the rest. the one who makes the rules, can change them. ask my mother.

[Skankhair]

Just for the record, I never put down anyone's opinion.

I never said the telepipe trick was right or wrong, good or bad. I just said it was a cheat. Not because I think it is, but because the culture as a whole (that defines the word "cheat") thinks it is. And that's a matter of fact.

[Skankhair]

"The NBA doesnt approve of traveling, though they do allow dribbling. So, traveling would be cheating, dribbling isnt. Sonic team approves of TP trick, but not of hacking, so....fill in the rest. the one who makes the rules, can change them. ask my mother."

Last time:

id approves of the God mode cheat in Quake. It's still a cheat. Find a better argument.

[Octavian]

how about you try disproving my analogy, rather then continue to just give me yours, because i dont think you could if you tried. thank you.

[jediknight007]

Methinks that the next world war will be caused by extreme PSO arguing....

[Soukosa]

Yeah. This has gotten way out of hand.

[Bit]

Aye.

Tis why I stopped. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[TheDing]

lol nice one JediKnight

[Sharkyland]

I would like to do it, but I don't have the patience to do it.

*justs waits impatiently to go on the online telepipe which is blocked by a switch that can only be turned off by the modem*

Arrrgh.

[UsP]

Well another way to think about it is that it is just another strategy part of the game...It's just a diffrent way to get rares without having to unlock it or insert codes like a cheat...It's just like taking a boss with a new strategy but that's my take on it..

[UsP]

ohh Yeah Shankhair what part of SD are you from...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: UsP on 2003-07-17 20:58 ]</font>

[eXo]

Hmm oh boy as if somebody else and there, i must see any item you find untekked and with % or else its not legit thread was not enough, bickering for the month now we have this one *LOL*.

Maybe its cheating *in someones eyes* maybe its not in most peoples eyes including *sega* and the *PSOW* staff. All i know is that i have based my whole PSO EP I & II career around the approval of the MOD'S.
I play by there rules and no one elses if they give me the O.K then i give myself the OK.

I have said my piece and will not be returning to this thread http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif any other individuals opinion,is irrelevent to me. Plus i already know where this thread is headed. *Lock City U.S.A* i think i hear some keys.
*The word cheater is open to interpretation*

*Have a nice day everybody*




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: eXo on 2003-07-17 22:43 ]</font>

[Castoth]

In real life, the TP trick would be considered a cheat based off the literal definition.

In the PSO world though, the word 'cheat' has been twisted to fit a different definition for that game alone and has exceptions and additions to the rule based on popular opinion of players. Few players consider it 'bad', just like how ST does not consider it 'bad'. Dictionary definitions can also be influenced by widespread acceptance of a word but PSO players aren't great enough in number to change the actual definition at all.

Guess by the literal sense, many things that players do would be considered 'cheating'. Maybe it's either time to find a new word for to describe certain actions in a less negative light or just accept that players and ST make up their own definitions in some sort of crazy, alternate universe. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Cengah]

Heres another story to this whole problem.

I have never bought a guide or anything to PSO before and i hadn't gone online to look stuff up for the game either.

The only way i found out about the telepipe trick was through my own stupidity.

I had to many items on my person so i piped up to pioneer 2 so i could sell some stuff. When i cam back down I noticed that there was a blue rag rappy that i had never seen before staring me in the face. I found out later that this was a rare monster known as an Al rappy.

I go online to find out that this piping trick had already been learned so i read about it and learned how to do it.

So in reality you can't call it cheating in my case, when i did it solely by accident.

[VulpesMundi]

Hmm. You sound very familiar, Skankhair. Very familiar indeed. May be just my imagination... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

My explaination was extremely logical. But if you need even more logic, I'll bite. Consider the TP trick a form of gambling. You roll the dice. Sometimes you pull up lucky seven, sometimes you get snake-eyes, but it's all luck of the draw. Now consider cheating loading the dice. Those dice will always come up lucky seven because that's what the cheat does. You can argue that it's a guess-and-by-god-ism trying to find the codes, but the fact of the matter is that once you know the code it'll always do what it's intended to do, whereas the TP trick will always be random. Cheats cause an immediate effect outside of the norm, whereas the TP trick has a low probability of causing an effect that IS normal (telepipes are a normal part of the game, rare enemies are a normal part of the game, and those rare enemies randomly appearing is a normal part of the game). There is a BIG difference between TPing and cheating. Cheating is: creating an item out of thin air, editing an item's properties, duplicating items, etc. Telepiping is: looking for a specific enemy that is supposed to randomly appear. Is that logical enough?

And no, I don't believe that the TP trick gives any advantage over just regular playing. The TP trick is just a method for hunting one specific singular item (running through Fake in Yellow is also a method for hunting one specific singular item since all you fight is rappies), but you lose out on a lot of other items and experience in exchange by using the TP trick. There's no advantage about that, especially when you go through 10, 20, 30, 50, 100, or even more rare enemies and never score that elusive rare. If it were cheating you'd have that rare enemy appear every time you piped and it would drop that item every time you killed it. The fact of the matter is you may never see that rare enemy, and even if you do it may never drop that rare item.

"Telepiping to restock is GAMEPLAY. You are not exploiting the regenerating enemies."

That's correct. The experience exploits imo are cheating because you're causing enemies to regenerate that were already killed. The thing you're missing about the TP trick is that the enemies that you're piping for were never killed. Therefore they're no different than piping back and forth to, say, find a specific weapon, armor, or item in the shop. The goods in shops are mostly randomly generated within certain parameters, and equally rare enemies are randomly generated within certain parameters in that they will only randomly appear in the place of one specific regular enemy. Piping to get items to randomly appear in the shop isn't cheating, so how can piping for rare enemies, which is basically the same thing, be cheating? Either they're both cheating or they're both not. So which is it? Logic tells me they're both not cheating, but I'm not gonna put words into anyone else's mouth.

FYI saying you're right and everyone else is wrong, that you have "blasted" everyone else doesn't make you right. It makes you seem arrogant, among other things, and I would advise against saying such petty things in the future. It's no way to hold a discussion.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2003-07-18 02:10 ]</font>

[Callous]

Thank you, Vulpes.

[eXo]

*Bravo* *BRAVO* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Raxxon_Ironis]

On 2003-07-16 10:41, Bit wrote:
The Telepipe trick is in some of Sega's PSO Guides, so if they say it's alright, then it's fine with me.



Damn straight, and don't let nobody tell you nothin' different!! Word!!

[Skankhair]

Still ignorant?

Fine.

Fox- loading the dice increases your chances. It doesn't mean you will always get a 7. You just proved yourself wrong. Thanks.

Piping increases your chances just as loading the dice does. And they are both cheating.

And by the way, getting more rare items than the next person is an advantage. DUH! You basically said that duping and hacking aren't cheats because they don't give anyone an advantage. Geez.

I'm not saying I am right and everyone else is wrong. I am saying if you think the pipe trick is not a cheat, you are wrong. Not because I say so, but because the culture as a whole does. I don't decide what words mean, nor do you.

Your argument was not logical. If you think it was, get help. Also, if you are going to say I can't hold an argument because your ignorance insults you, you should try to not insult me in return. It just makes you look even worse than you already do.

Oct- I did disprove you analogy. Your analogy doesn't work, first of all, because the NBA decides what is allowed in their games. They decide what is "gameplay" in their games. In videogames, cheats are often allowed by their developers. Again, the God mode in Quake. So shop saying the pipe trick isn't a cheat because Sega allows it. Sega decides what was gameplay, but unlike the NBA, allows people to exploit gameplay parameters. i.e., cheat. Just as MNAY developers do.

What is cheating IS NOT a matter of opinion. Just as someone said, in "the real world", the pipe trick is cheating. In the PSO community, it may not be considered cheating, but guess what- the PSO community doesn't decide what the word "cheat" means. The English speaking culture as a whole does.

So if the PSO community says the pipe trick isn't a cheat, they are using the word "cheat" incorrectly. The PSO community is a sub-culture and is using slang.

You people really sicken me. If you do the pipe trick, you are a cheater. If you can't deal with that, you should probably kill your sad self.

A cheat is an action that expliots a rule or parameter to give an advantage. The pipe trick exploits a gameplay parameter to give an advantage. It's a cheat.

Your stupid arguments have been:

Sega allows it, so it's okay.- I never said it wasn't okay. I said it was a cheat. id allows the God cheat, but it is still a cheat. So your argument holds no water.

There is a chance of failure.- As Fox said, loading the dice is cheating. But there is still a chance of failure there as well. Cheating puts the odds more in your favor. The Pipe trick puts the odds more in your favor. No one ever said a cheat had to work 100% of the time. So your argument holds no water.

If you want to believe that pipe trick isn't a cheat, fine. But you are wrong. That's not a mater of opinion. 1+1=2 and Squares have 4 sides. The pipe trick is also a cheat. If you disagree, you are wrong. These are facts- using the symbols and words as they are defined. None of you can make a logical argument because THERE ISN'T ONE!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-18 22:52 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-18 22:54 ]</font>

[Skankhair]

By the way, that flat out ignorance of many people int his thread made me laugh out loud many times. Thanks. Your inability to make an argument that I couldn't rip apart was very entertaining.

I know things got a bit heavy in this thread, I normally don't insult people or curse at them, but you all deserved it. I don't know if you are all children, or mentally retarded, but you need to learn to shut your fucking mouths when you don't have a fucking clue. You may hate me now, but this is a very important lesson to learn. Hopefully, getting your stupid asses owned here will be a wake up call. Hopefully it taugh you something. If so, you owe me. I did you a big favor. Thank me later. When you grow up you'll realize that pretending to have a clue just makes you look like an ass, and it's good to actually think out your arguments before you say them.... loaded dice... I'm still laughing over that one.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skankhair on 2003-07-18 23:02 ]</font>

[eXo]

Well im glad this is over,because the rules to this topic where simular to the rules of life.

A. Its illegal to drink alchoholic beverages in the pubic like walking down the street and stuff.

B. But when you go to Las vegas certaian things are allowed,like drinking alchoholic beverages in the open and hell if you go,to the strip by this pub called whiskey petes prostitution is even allowed and well advertised,you see papers saying 2 girls for $110.00 i swear it was like that last month http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: eXo on 2003-07-19 00:44 ]</font>

[UsP]

On 2003-07-19 00:04, eXo wrote:
B. But when you go to Las vegas certaian things are allowed,like drinking alchoholic beverages in the open and hall if you go,to the strip by this pub called whiskey petes prostitution is well allowed and well advertised,you see pepers saying 2 girls for $110.00 i swear it was like that last month http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif


LoL Nice new sig btw

[eXo]

On 2003-07-19 00:37, UsP wrote:


On 2003-07-19 00:04, eXo wrote::


LoL Nice new sig btw

Thanks

[VulpesMundi]

TPing is NOT like loading the dice. Why? Because your odds of finding a rare enemy are exactly the same as if you were just normally playing. Your odds of that rare enemy (IF it actually appears) dropping a special item is the same as any other rare enemy. Yes, TPing gives you more chances to find a rare enemy, but it doesn't improve your odds and it's not the only manner available to improve chances. You could play Fake in Yellow over and over again until you find a Pal Rappy. That improves your chances of finding a rare enemy, but also doesn't change the odds. You could play Forest of Sorrow over and over until you find a Hildetorr. That improves your chances of finding a rare enemy, but also doesn't change the odds. According to your logic, those are cheating, too. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

"The pipe trick exploits a gameplay parameter to give an advantage."

Exploit? Maybe. But nobody ever said an exploit is necessarily a cheat. The noun dictionary definition of exploit, point 1, reads: to make use of; utilize productively. (Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College Edition, (c)1982.) Remember what I've been saying all along. Telepiping is a normal part of the game. Rare enemies are a normal part of the game. And Rare enemies randomly appearing are a normal part of the game. As noted above, TPing doesn't change the odds of a rare enemy randomly appearing. It is used without any kind of external cheat device, hex edit, or any some-such matter of changing the normal aspects of the gameplay. Therefore it isn't a cheat.

And please don't compare normal gameplay to what is obviously a cheat code (ie. ID and their God codes). That's in an entirely different realm and everybody and their grandmother knows they're cheat codes (you usually have to enter a master code which usually gives a message like "cheat activated" - how much more obvious can you get).

And again I have to point out that just because you say you're right and everyone else is wrong doesn't make it so. Saying you have fact also doesn't make it factual. You have your opinion, and apparently no amount of logic will change your mind. I can respect that. So let us agree to disagree and move on.

Yes, that is a nice sig eXo. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2003-07-19 01:44 ]</font>

[Octavian]

Yes, the telepipe trick does not make rare enemies magicly appear. they appear randomly, just as they do in normal gameplay.

[Skankhair]

"TPing is NOT like loading the dice. Why? Because your odds of finding a rare enemy are exactly the same as if you were just normally playing."

That's not really true. If it were, no one would pipe. By piping, you increase the chance that YOU will find a rare item. Period.

"Your odds of that rare enemy (IF it actually appears) dropping a special item is the same as any other rare enemy. Yes, TPing gives you more chances to find a rare enemy, but it doesn't improve your odds and it's not the only manner available to improve chances."

Yes, a way to improve your chances... like loading dice. Cheating.

"You could play Fake in Yellow over and over again until you find a Pal Rappy. That improves your chances of finding a rare enemy, but also doesn't change the odds. You could play Forest of Sorrow over and over until you find a Hildetorr. That improves your chances of finding a rare enemy, but also doesn't change the odds. According to your logic, those are cheating, too."

Wrong. God damn... use your brain. Doing those quests over and over is GAMEPLAY. Not an EXPLOIT!

"Exploit? Maybe. But nobody ever said an exploit is necessarily a cheat. The noun dictionary definition of exploit, point 1, reads: to make use of; utilize productively. (Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College Edition, (c)1982.) Remember what I've been saying all along. Telepiping is a normal part of the game. Rare enemies are a normal part of the game. And Rare enemies randomly appearing are a normal part of the game. As noted above, TPing doesn't change the odds of a rare enemy randomly appearing. It is used without any kind of external cheat device, hex edit, or any some-such matter of changing the normal aspects of the gameplay. Therefore it isn't a cheat."

Wrong. Piping for items is an exploit. It is exploiting the gameplay parameters and IS NOT a normal action within normal gameplay. It increases that chance that YOU will find a rare item. Thus giving you an advantage. A cheat. Plain and simple.

"And please don't compare normal gameplay to what is obviously a cheat code (ie. ID and their God codes). That's in an entirely different realm and everybody and their grandmother knows they're cheat codes (you usually have to enter a master code which usually gives a message like "cheat activated" - how much more obvious can you get)."

Tricking the game into regenerating enemies is pretty obvious too. But you are in denial.

"And again I have to point out that just because you say you're right and everyone else is wrong doesn't make it so."

And again, it's not me saying you are wrong, it's the fuckign English langauge.

"Saying you have fact also doesn't make it factual."

No shit. It just happens that what I am saying is a fact.

"You have your opinion, and apparently no amount of logic will change your mind. I can respect that. So let us agree to disagree and move on."

I don't have an opinion. What the word "cheat" means is objective, not subjective. A matter of fact, not opinion. Go to school.

[Skankhair]

"Yes, the telepipe trick does not make rare enemies magicly appear. they appear randomly, just as they do in normal gameplay."

Actually, they don't appear randomly. They appear by chance.

Loading dice doesn't make sevens appear magically. They appear by chance, just like rare monsters, just as they do in normal craps. It's still a cheat.

Find an argument that I can't fuck in the face. Please. Your bullshit is becoming tiresome.

[Obscenity]

Find an argument that I can't fuck in the face. Please.



Lol

[eXo]

On 2003-07-19 08:47, Skankhair wrote:
I need to find an argument that that everyone else can't fuck in the face. Please. My bullshit is becoming tiresome.


*WoW shankhair dont be so hard on yourself *LOL*

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Bit]

*WoW shankhair dont be so hard on yourself *LOL*




... I nearly fell out of my chair from the last one. Funny how this 'Skankhair' continues to argue.

Ah well. Happy posting.

[Octavian]

You're an asshole. Attempt to fuck that argument in the face.

[RaVenous_Monk]

Skankhair, prepare to have your mind eaten, becuz im tired of dumbasses who are one minded

AGRUMENT(make sure you quote it in your crappy rebutal)

you say the TP trick gives ppl and advantage over other ppl therefore cheating...
BUT
having advantages doesn't mean your cheating...

i wait for you have your 2 cents about this

(IMO spend one of those pennies on a brain cell your old one isn't working right)

[Stalfos333]

I was going to stay out of this after my original post, but a few glaring inconsistancies made me decide to become involved. Coincidentally, most of the most glaring have come from Skankhair. This only makes sense, as he's obviously typing while angry, swearing in almost every post and double posting full on half the time, not to mention the fact that he has probably said the most. I'll point out a few things here, as I don't feel like quoting throughout...

Skankhair:

"TPing is NOT like loading the dice. Why? Because your odds of finding a rare enemy are exactly the same as if you were just normally playing."

That's not really true. If it were, no one would pipe. By piping, you increase the chance that YOU will find a rare item. Period.

"You could play Fake in Yellow over and over again until you find a Pal Rappy. That improves your chances of finding a rare enemy, but also doesn't change the odds. You could play Forest of Sorrow over and over until you find a Hildetorr. That improves your chances of finding a rare enemy, but also doesn't change the odds. According to your logic, those are cheating, too."

Wrong. God damn... use your brain. Doing those quests over and over is GAMEPLAY. Not an EXPLOIT!



OK, The first point. Telepiping does NOT increase the chances of spotting a rare enemy. Every rare enemy has a one in some number chance of appearing, and the average would say that you spot a rare beast at that number. Telepiping does NOT change this number. If you must see 200 hildelts to spot a hildetor, you still have to see 200 Hildelts. By using your ability, given through normal play parameters, to leave an area and return to it, all you are doing is hoping that one of the enemie's numbers have come up. Normal play parameters don't change. You are not exploiting a glitch or inserted code in the hopes of giving yourself some way of going around those parameters. People do it because it is potentially faster, not because it's better. In other words, for much the same reason as hunting for a rare through a quest or in multiplayer. Normal play parameters include online and offline play, so it is not cheating to go hunting for a rare in a multiplayer game for the higher enemy count instead of in offline single player. The philosophy is the same, exploiting normal game play in an effort to see more enemies.

The second point; Doing quests over and over IS, in fact, the same as TPing. The game OBVIOUSLY intends you to finish a quest after playing through once, else the game wouldn't bother to let you play them all through only after beating all quests. As such, you are exploiting your ability to quit and restart a quest in an effort to see more of a specific enemy or even to level up faster. This method could be refered to as "The Rare Finding Trick" formally, with no more embelishment than calling piping out a "TP trick". One could argue, in fact, that quiting and restarting a quest has far more impact on your character growth and equipment than any amount of piping can, since you can fight a higher quantity of almost all enemies through certain quests than can find through normal gameplay.

[VulpesMundi]

On 2003-07-19 08:45, Skankhair wrote:
That's not really true. If it were, no one would pipe. By piping, you increase the chance that YOU will find a rare item. Period.

You're still missing the point. TPing is a normal part of the gameplay. Rare enemies are a normal part of the gameplay. Rare enemies randomly appearing are a normal part of the gameplay. There's no loaded dice about it.



Yes, a way to improve your chances... like loading dice. Cheating.

Wrong. You missed the entire point on that one. That rare enemy, should it appear, is no more likely to drop a rare item than any other rare enemy. Read the post again.



Wrong. God damn... use your brain. Doing those quests over and over is GAMEPLAY. Not an EXPLOIT!

Telepipes are a normal part of the gameplay. Apparently you can't understand that simple concept. Piping is no different than doing quests over and over because they're both a normal part of the gameplay.



Wrong. Piping for items is an exploit. It is exploiting the gameplay parameters and IS NOT a normal action within normal gameplay. It increases that chance that YOU will find a rare item. Thus giving you an advantage. A cheat. Plain and simple.

It may be an exploit. But you completely danced around the entire point on that one. An exploit isn't necessarily a cheat. The proof is there. I've said it over and over again, but it bears repeating until you finally understand the concept. Telepiping is a normal part of the game. Rare enemies are a normal part of the game. And Rare enemies randomly appearing are a normal part of the game. It's really that simple. You're just twisting the idea around and perverting it.



Tricking the game into regenerating enemies is pretty obvious too. But you are in denial.

No, I'm just using common sense. I already noted my stance on regenerating enemies in a previous post. Regenerating enemies is NOT the same thing as the TP trick. So your point is moot.



And again, it's not me saying you are wrong, it's the fuckign English langauge.

That's what you keep saying, but the truth speaks for itself. Having to say it guarantees how wrong it is (reverse psychology and all that). Say it all you want, but it doesn't make it so.



No shit. It just happens that what I am saying is a fact.

Naw. See previous.



I don't have an opinion. What the word "cheat" means is objective, not subjective. A matter of fact, not opinion. Go to school.

Yes, we know what cheat means. However, you keep tiptoing around the proof I have that the TP trick isn't a cheat. I can lead the horse to water, but I can't make him drink.



Actually, they don't appear randomly. They appear by chance.

They're basically the same thing. But in case you didn't know, it's a random calculation that makes rare enemies appear. So yes, they randomly appear.

I won't quote the rest due to your vile content. You might want to lay off the insults and actually try to discuss the topic with a modicum of respect towards others. Trying to flamebait and belittle people doesn't prove your point, it only makes a jerk out of you. Just some friendly advice.

[eRUPT]

Yeah uhm, lets stop the flamewars.

*Lock*