an observation on meteor cudgel

[Alisha]

a while ago when i had a lvl 3 pb combo s/d on i noticed that meteor cudgel was stronger than bkb at first i thought i was seeing things or that maybee it had something to do with the amount of grinds bkb was but wasnt sure so recently i was bored and did some testing after maxing my hunes atp.
first i gathered some dbl sabers and calculated how much atp they each give
meteor cudgel-590 atp
double cannon-650 atp
BKB-760 atp
Demo comet-580 atp
Srank Twin-550 atp
next i casted lvl 20 shifta on myself then caculated how much of an atp boost i got with each ,all of the were pretty close except the cudgel
cudgel-516
d.cannon-437 <-with just lvl 20 shifta the cudgel is stronger than d.cannon
BKB-430
Demo comet-426
srank Twin-426
at this point my curiosity peaked so i loaded up offline multi and had my fomarl cast lvl 30 shifta and did the same calculation
cudgel-711!
D.cannon-601 <--wtf a little over 100 atp difference!
BKB-592
demo comet-597
srank twin-587
this has me curious if any armors or sheilds have special powers like the cudgel
im really curious what kind of boost a cudgel would get with a lvl 4 pb combo

[tiltnkirby26]

I don't think any armor od shield does that. I've seen that happen with all my weapons. Thats why I don't alway take the one with highest atp because with my shifta it maybe more powerful then something else.

[ginko990]

I think it happens sometimes as a glitch. On psox, sometime when you equip units they dont register onto your base stat. you have to re-equip them.

[Mixfortune]

That's interesting. Maybe shifta doesn't affect grinds?

[VulpesMundi]

You got me thinking with this so I had to do my own tests. I used a level 121 HUmar with base ATP of 1345. Following was the results using all the twin-class weapons I own that have been grinded to the maximum...

Shifta 20 - normal = difference
No weapon: 1809 - 1345 = 464
Double Saber: 2032 - 1567 = 465
Stag Cutlery: 2106 - 1640 = 466
Twin Brand: 2171 - 1705 = 466
Meteor Cudgel: 2489 - 1935 = 554
Monkey King Bar: 2253 - 1785 = 468
Partisan of Lightning: 2353 - 1875 = 478
Demolition Comet: 2389 - 1925 = 464

Shifta 30 - normal = difference
No weapon: 1983 - 1345 = 638
Double Saber: 2206 - 1567 = 639
Stag Cutlery: 2280 - 1640 = 640
Twin Brand: 2345 - 1705 = 640
Meteor Cudgel: 2697 - 1935 = 762
Monkey King Bar: 2428 - 1785 = 643
Partisan of Lightning: 2532 - 1875 = 657
Demolition Comet: 2563 - 1925 = 638

First thing to note was that the default Shifta bonus was 464 for Shifta 20 and 638 for Shifta 30. The Double Saber always got +1, and the Stag Cutlery and Twin Brand always got +2. The Meteor Cudgel got +90 and +124. The Monkey King Bar got +4 and +5. The Partisan of Lightning got +14 and +19. The Demolition Comet did not get any ATP bonus above the default. It seems that some weapons do indeed get different bonuses than others. However, it doesn't seem to be anything to do with total ATP or even grinds. If that were so then the Double Cannon would get the biggest bonus since it's the strongest ungrinded twin (it cannot even be grinded). Obviously that's not the case, here. Even the Demolition Comet is stronger than all of the ones I tried, except for the Meteor Cudgel, and that got no bonus at all. It just seems that each weapon gets a different built-in percentage bonus to Shifta.

Something tells me this is going to have to be tested on other weapon classes to see what happens.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2003-08-03 03:38 ]</font>

[Fanatic]

Wow... this is actually interesting. Here I woke up and thought that this would be just another day of people posting about red boxes they just found or mags they are too lazy to look up the guides for...

Either this is a simple fluke or bug, where we're missing something obvious... or it is a 'hidden' stat as important as ATP, Max Grind, etc.

Could be interesting if we needed another field for all weapons in the database...

[Obscenity]

I actually noticed something similar the other day. A Force had cast Shifta on me (I'm not sure of the level of it) and I had my Red Sword equipped. I went back to Pioneer 2 for some reason or another and was looking in my bank. I had the BKB+80 highlighted and noticed that equipping it would have actually lowered mt ATP. Weird.

[rena-ko]

so to speak, with shifta, meteor cudgel is the best twin out there? followed by the demo comet? nice.

i noticed that too, while i was grinding my srank twin. without shifta it was stronger than the ungrinded demo comet i found some time after i finished grinding the srank. and with shifta it was weaker...

[Jazhara]

A friend also had this happen after getting the Toy Hammer (offline C-Mode prize), pretty sure it will happen with that too.

I'll see if I can find out more details... If this is true could require a fairly big study... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Jazhara]

[EDIT] - Tested on a lvl 131 HUcast with base ATP 1319.

My Swords test:

Weapon: With Shifta 20 - Without Shifta = Difference

No Weapon: 1744 - 1319 = +425
Berserk Calibur+10: 2065 - 1594 = +471
Flowen's Sword: 2099 - 1619 = +480
Last Survivor+31: 2173 - 1702 = +471
Dragon Slayer+34: 2197 - 1739 = +458
Chain Sawd+15: 2338 - 1874 = +464
Red Sword+52: 2562 - 2034 = +528
S-Rank Sword+250: 2474 - 2019 = +455
Flowen's Sword(3067): 2050 - 1575 = +475
Flowen's Sword(3083): 2065 - 1602 = +463
Flowen's Sword(3079)+9: 2096 - 1637 = +459

Weapon: With Shifta 30 - Without Shifta = Difference

No Weapon: 1945 - 1319 = +626
Berserk Calibur+10: 2241 - 1594 = +647
Flowen's Sword: 2278 - 1619 = +659
Last Survivor+31: 2350 - 1702 = +648
Dragon Slayer+34: 2368 - 1739 = +629
Chain Sawd+15: 2512 - 1874 = +638
Red Sword+52: 2761 - 2034 = +727
S-Rank Sword+250: 2645 - 2019 = +626
Flowen's Sword(3067): 2228 - 1575 = +653
Flowen's Sword(3083): 2238 - 1602 = +636
Flowen's Sword(3079)+9: 2268 - 1637 = +631

As you can see, the RED SWORD also has a bonus above and beyond what it should have - for only 15 extra ATP (and 198 less grind) over the S-Rank Sword it gets 101ATP more from the Shifta.

I'll try and check actual damage at lunch - the only other class I can test semi-effectively is Claws, but I don't have some of the good ones, and maybe some Partisans.

Need some people to test Daggers too. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jazhara on 2003-08-05 03:23 ]</font>

[univox]

So the Red Sword and Meteor Cudgel get this unexplained shifta bonus?

I find that interesting because both weapons seem to cause more randomized damage compared to other weapons.

To explain what I mean and provide numbers to boot, I just went into the forest to test this out. I went around killing Bartles and Barbles using normal attacks only.

Say I do 3 normal attacks in a row with a Demolition Comet. 271-272 per hit

With a Meteor Cudgel 241-280 per hit.

What really get me though is both my Demo Comet and Meteor Cudgel are fully grinded. This puts my Cudgel at a 10 ATP advantage. Ontop of that my Cudgel has a 20% bonus to native while my Comet has none. That should come out to a 128 ATP advantage in the Cudgels favor.

It seems that my Cudgel isn't performing as well as it's stats imply it should.

[Jazhara]

Tested damage between Red Sword and S-Rank (in Caves as Red Sword has 10%N):

Attacking Vulmer (ULT, natch):


Weapon: With Shifta 30 / Without Shifta

Light Hit
Red Sword: 311-348 / 202-235
S-Rank Sword: 344-345 / 235


Hard Hit
Red Sword: 589-681 / 403-483
S-Rank Sword: 650-652 / 435


Something definitely not right there! Seems these weapons with odd Shifta bonuses also have higher damage variations than normal types.

Vulpes, want to check the damage you're getting from Cudgel vs. Comet?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jazhara on 2003-08-05 06:23 ]</font>

[VulpesMundi]

Actually, I've already figured this out. When univox mentioned the performance issues of variance in overall damages it got me thinking. So I went through the entire list of twins I had tested. What I discovered is that the Shifta bonus is directly proportional to the ATP variances on the weapons themselves. Shifta 30 raises base ATP by nearly 50%. So I applied the roughly 47% bonus (it isn't quite 50%) to each of the ATP variances to see what happened, and sure enough I found a pattern.

Double Saber has a 2 ATP variance and got a 1 point Shifta bonus.
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=28

Stag Cutlery has a 5 ATP variance and got a 2 point Shifta bonus.
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=100

Twin Brand has a 5 ATP variance and got a 2 point Shifta bonus.
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=109

Meteor Cudgel has a 260 point ATP variance and got a 124 point Shifta bonus.
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=190

Monkey King Bar has a 10 point ATP variance and got a 5 point Shifta bonus.
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=188

Partisan of Lightning has a 40 point ATP variance and got a 19 point Shifta bonus.
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=520

Demolition Comet has no ATP variance, so of course it got no Shifta bonus.
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=277

So to summarize: look at a weapon in the database and see what its ATP variance is listed as. For Shifta 30 take roughly 47% of that variance and that's what the weapon's Shifta bonus will be. Just remember that the greater a weapon's ATP variance, the wilder the damage will be. In this effect, a higher total ATP weapon may not be as effective because the randomness of the damage may end up far less than its maximum potential.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2003-08-05 07:19 ]</font>

[univox]

That's rather odd. So people do find weapons that match the lowest ATP rating like those in the database? Here I always thought it was due to people with a poor concept of subtraction as I've never seen weapons vary in ATP unlike rare armor which I never seem to find two with the same stats.

That brings up another question. Will different armors get an extra bonus with deband and is it possible to take more damage despite wearing an armor with higher defense?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: univox on 2003-08-05 11:44 ]</font>

[Jazhara]

Nice one.

What I don't understand though is why the Shifta variance is applied to a fixed ATP?

E.g. My Red Sword ATP is fixed, yet the damage varies.

Why?

[VulpesMundi]

On 2003-08-05 09:37, univox wrote:
That's rather odd. So people do find weapons that match the lowest ATP rating like those in the database? Here I always thought it was due to people with a poor concept of subtraction as I've never seen weapons vary in ATP unlike rare armor which I never seem to find two with the same stats.

Not quite. The visible weapon ATP (what you see added to your base ATP) never changes except with grinders and Shifta/Jellen. You will always see the higher number of the ATP variance. Those weapon variance scores listed in the database, from what Lolita told me in the past, are simply what the game is programmed to vary the calculated ATP with each hit.



On 2003-08-05 09:53, Jazhara wrote:
Nice one.
What I don't understand though is why the Shifta variance is applied to a fixed ATP?
E.g. My Red Sword ATP is fixed, yet the damage varies.
Why?

My guess is that the Shifta bonus is actually supposed to increase the ATP variance of a weapon. For example: Meteor Cudgel regularly gets a 260 point ATP variance, but when you add level 30 Shifta you get a 124 point bonus. However, I believe that the bonus is added to the ATP variance, so now it gets a variance of 384. This makes the damage it will do each hit even wilder and less reliable. That would seem to make sense, anyway.



On 2003-08-05 09:37, univox wrote:
That brings up another question. Will different armors get an extra bonus with deband and is it possible to take more damage despite wearing an armor with higher defense?

Unlike Shifta and weapons, Deband actually effects your total DFP score (exactly as it did back on the DC & PC versions - it wasn't changed in E1&2). So any DFP bonus on armor, shields, and even addition DFP from weapons and units will definately be calculated into the Deband bonus.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2003-08-05 19:54 ]</font>

[Jazhara]

Cheers, got my head round this now. Doesn't really change the wep's I need to hunt, which is my main concern covered. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Anisha__J-Hunter]

I was the one with the Toy Hammer (on max ATP Hucast)

When I had 4x PB my ATP was at like 4300 - better than an Oragito.

The Meteor goes up to like 4400 ATP... but BKB still does more damage at "only" 4200 ATP.


I think it's just a bug - not affecting the damage you do at all

[dj_dan]

On 2003-08-12 10:11, Anisha__J-Hunter wrote:
I was the one with the Toy Hammer (on max ATP Hucast)

When I had 4x PB my ATP was at like 4300 - better than an Oragito.

The Meteor goes up to like 4400 ATP... but BKB still does more damage at "only" 4200 ATP.


I think it's just a bug - not affecting the damage you do at all




Try not to think of it as a bug, but more... weapon *potential*.

While the BKB has a lower total ATP it will be more reliable in it's damage. For something like the Red Sword, it variance increases drastically to compensate for it's existing variance (if that makes any sense). So even though it's not as reliable as other weapons, the possibility of hitting much harder than normal should make up for this.

Now granted, 100ATP is not enough to see a major difference in damage in this game. That extra variance doesn't seem to be worth the trouble.
The only instance I would see it being useful is if you had a Luck stat of 90-100. The reason being Critical attacks do 150% damage of an attack.
Only then finally you would see some worthwhile damage based on the variance.