Item drop on death = bad game design, and an alternative

[PsychoKick]

[arrogant b@stard game designer mode on]

Considering the amount of grief that stealing seems to give people, dropping one's items is a piss-poor incentive to not die. I don't give a $hit if it's supposedly "realistic". It kills too much of the fun factor, makes thieving possible, splits up the community with distrust and paranoia, makes PK cheats a royal pain in the ass instead of a mere annoyance, and cripes, the game's already very unrealistic anyway! The whole item drop on death is bad, stupid, unimaginative game design on Sega's part IMNSHO. There are _much_ better ways to discourage dying.

Wanna to know what would be a good penalty for death that would encourage teamplay, yet still keep things from becoming too easy? Instead of penalizing players for dying by making them drop stuff, REWARD THE MONSTERS for killing a player. Make all the monsters in the room stronger whenever they kill a player (bosses would instead regain a chunk of HP), but still worth the same amount of experience. Not only would this discourage people from dying, but this will also encourage people to not let their teammates die, because letting them do so would pose a direct threat to the entire team. If you really need some stupid Star-Trekky explaination for it, just say that monsters absorb the released life-energy from the people they kill or some other sci-fi nonsense like that. Heck, it's a hell of a lot more believable than tiny little Mags summoning jumbo radioactive tuna to smite sharks with legs.

Whatever. Why should I care? I'm making my own online game, so eventually I won't have to be annoyed at the shortcomings of all the other ones out there. I should just stop whining and concentrate instead on kicking every other game's @ss.

[gideon]

How many games have you designed? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_wink.gif

Every game does or should have some sort of penalty for dieing. Else what would make a player hesitant to run into a room full of damiens solo style. Granted when you reach a certain level this doesnt effect you. It is good game design, very much so.

Also it helps build a "stronger" community, there aren't really other means of telling who is out to screw you, and who is there to play a good, honest game.

Reward the enemies? So what they take one more hit to kill? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif

<font size=1>[ This message was edited by: gideon on 2001-03-24 08:40 ]</font>

[SaitoH]

I think its in there as a show of trust for people who don't know each other. If a person revives you and doesn't steal your weapon, there is kind of an instant trust for that person. They could of taken your weapon and left but they didn't. I've had my first rare stolen (a double saber) and that really sucked. Since then I have been really lucky though (other than being pk'd). You just have to be real careful around new people for a bit and try to feel them out. Its pretty easy to tell if someone is a legit player or not.

[PsychoKick]

I'm still feeling arrogant. Java will do that to ya.



On 2001-03-24 08:35, gideon wrote:
How many games have you designed? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_wink.gif
[quote]

You know, what is the point of asking for personal information? There's no way to prove that I'm lying or not, just as I'd have no way to conclusively prove you right or wrong if you said you were a coder for PSO.

My ideas, however, can stand by themselves. They can be applicable no matter what the source they came from is.

*sigh* But since you ask, in all honesty I've lost count of how many games I've made. I've been making games and studying them through formal courses and on my own time since I was 10 years old. Excuse me for just being a lowly game programmer/animator who's not a member of Sonic Team.

[quote]
Every game does or should have some sort of penalty for dieing.


I AM proposing a penalty for dying. Or can you not see how making enemies tougher can constitute a penalty for the player?



Else what would make a player hesitant to run into a room full of damiens solo style.


That if they kill you once, they'll stand a good chance of being able to kill you again even if you took a few of them out, because the remaining ones are significantly stronger from your death? That dying will make it harder to proceed deeper into the game, because the "walls" blocking your progress will becoming tougher?

*sigh* Look, I'm proposing a different sort of penalty instead of the tired old "lose stuff when you die," which in this particular game has the side effect of letting jerks take away the results of time invested by their victims. It takes time to find good weapons, and no one wants to see the fruits of thier invested time irrevocably removed by the whims of some random jerk.



Granted when you reach a certain level this doesnt effect you. It is good game design, very much so.


Nope, it isn't. This particular method of "death penalty" is so old and outmoded that it belongs back in the days of free MUDs played via remote text terminal. As much as I love PSO, this particular bit stinks according to a very simple rule. The basic rule of good game design is merely "is it fun for the vast majority of the players?" Last time I checked, getting ripped off doesn't seem to be a whole lot of fun for most PSO players, nor most other online gamers in general, especially when you're paying cold hard cash for it...



Also it helps build a "stronger" community, there aren't really other means of telling who is out to screw you, and who is there to play a good, honest game.


From what I've seen, it only seems to be creating a more fragmented, paranoid community. People seem much less willing to play with strangers and thus make new friends, simply because there's too much risk involved and not enough reward.

Besides, why should we even have to worry about getting corpse-looted by other people in the first place? Where does it say that online games MUST feature corpse-looting? It's not in the frickin' Ten Commandments or anything.

And there's still plenty of other ways for the jerks to be jerks if they want to (ie: trade scams, cheating, rudeness, item hogging, etc). You can't stop people from being jerks. I'm just trying to think of ways to minimize any permanent effects jerks can inflict on other player's characters.



Reward the enemies? So what they take one more hit to kill? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif


Oh please. Show a bit more imagination than simply trivializing the idea with "one more hit to kill." How higher defense rating, plus they do more damage with each hit, and maybe move faster? Heck, if you really want to be evil, maybe even ressurect recently slain monsters as undead versions of themselves that don't give exp when you kill them. Stop thinking in a rut and have some fun with the concept.

[Oronis]

Making the monsters stronger/giving bosses HP for a kill would be good, but would also discriminate against forces who have a hard time surviving attacks, such as Dark Falz's grants spell.

[PsychoKick]

I'm still feeling arrogant. Java will do that to ya.



On 2001-03-24 08:35, gideon wrote:
How many games have you designed? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_wink.gif


Gee, excuse me for just being a lowly game programmer/animator who dares to question the design of the great holy Sonic Team who can make no mistakes.

You know, what is the point of asking for personal information? There's no way to prove that I'm lying or not, just as I'd have no way to conclusively prove you right or wrong if you said you were a coder for PSO.

My ideas, however, can stand by themselves. They can be applicable no matter what the source they came from is.

*sigh* But since you ask, in all honesty I've lost count of how many games I've made. I've been making games and studying them through formal courses and on my own time since I was 10 years old.



Every game does or should have some sort of penalty for dieing.


I AM proposing a penalty for dying. Or can you not see how making enemies tougher can constitute a penalty for the player? Direct negative reinforcement isn't the only way to do things.



Else what would make a player hesitant to run into a room full of damiens solo style.


That if they kill you once, they'll stand a good chance of being able to kill you again even if you took a few of them out, because the remaining ones are significantly stronger from your death? That dying will make it harder to proceed deeper into the game, because the "walls" blocking your progress will becoming tougher?

*sigh* Look, I'm proposing a different sort of penalty instead of the tired old "lose stuff when you die," which in this particular game has the side effect of letting jerks take away the results of time invested by their victims. It takes time to find good weapons, and no one wants to see the fruits of thier invested time irrevocably removed by the whims of some random jerk.



Granted when you reach a certain level this doesnt effect you. It is good game design, very much so.


Nope, it isn't. This particular method of "death penalty" is so old and outmoded that it belongs back in the days of free MUDs played via remote text terminal. As much as I love PSO, this particular bit stinks according to a very simple rule. The basic rule of good game design is merely "is it fun for the vast majority of the players?" Last time I checked, getting ripped off doesn't seem to be a whole lot of fun for most PSO players, nor most other online gamers in general, especially when you're paying cold hard cash for it...



Also it helps build a "stronger" community, there aren't really other means of telling who is out to screw you, and who is there to play a good, honest game.


From what I've seen, it only seems to be creating a more fragmented, paranoid community. People seem much less willing to play with strangers and thus make new friends, simply because there's too much risk involved and not enough reward. Heck, some friends of mine have left the game entirely, and I play much less than I did before.

Besides, why should we even have to worry about getting corpse-looted by other people in the first place? Where does it say that online games MUST feature corpse-looting? It's not in the frickin' Ten Commandments or anything.

And there's still plenty of other ways for the jerks to be jerks if they want to (ie: trade scams, cheating, rudeness, item hogging, etc). You can't stop people from being jerks. I'm just trying to think of ways to minimize any permanent effects jerks can inflict on other player's characters.



Reward the enemies? So what they take one more hit to kill? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif


Oh please. Show a bit more imagination than simply trivializing the idea with "one more hit to kill." How about giving them a higher defense rating, plus they do more damage, and maybe move faster? Heck, if you really want to be evil, maybe even ressurect recently slain monsters as undead versions of themselves that don't give exp when you kill them. Stop thinking in a rut and have some fun with the concept.

[Drahktar]

I'm surprised no one mentioned losing exp when you died. I think that's one of the most effective out there. That's a lot scarier than the remote chance of having my weapon stolen. Currently your punishment is that you MIGHT lose your weapon. If your decent at choosing buddies to run around with, it's quite unlikely that will happen. Exp loss would happen everytime, regarless of your teammates regard for your well being.

[Rei]

Or maybe a stats along with your guild card....something like "This sucker died 1047 times in 7 hours of gameplay"

Rankhttp://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_frown.gif in recent 10 hour)
0-10-> Godlike(You can start using your toes to play)
11-25->blah blah
....
....
....
351-500->Kamikaze
501++ ->Monkey(A Joypad is something looks like....)

[Myriddian]

I would say the classic way, in a MUD was when you died you lost EVERYTHING. Along with experience, and possibly stats. But even in PSO if you lost some experience, without going star trekky that would work just fine. Say if you die, you loose 1/4 of your experience.

The unfortunate part is that wont make a bond unless you say hey Bob, can you help me out? so i can stop dying.

I dislike dying badly, and since i'm level 79 Feonewmn i dont die often. But when i play online i usually dont equip a weapon and just use techniques. Only because of idiots who have tried to make me die.

The only fun part about it is, when you dont die and they get agravated about that.

Quite simply, make the punishment simple, or dont use your 'good' weapon online. Or make good friends and only play with them.

In the begining it was easier to make friends, now it seems people are less trusting then ever. Rather unfortunate because it's ruining the game. Moreso with the new players who are 12-14 years old and immature (sorry if this offends anyone) and all they do is try and trade weapons and steal them.

they'll trade their guild card, and whatever else just to get your 'rare'. Ever seen a level 15 try and trade for a Chain Sawd? I have. It's pathetic, and i've seen soo many people be taken for it.

Just as in the MUDs you gained friends, and enemies, you also hopefully got a CLUE. Never EVER trade something you dont want to loose. If you have 3 db's sabers and they want that, then loose 1 at the most, and your gain, maybe a hacked pian?

My point is, for every way you can say to resolve the problem, there's always someone immature enough to find a new way to screw players. So you can either live with it, or put a nuse around the people who fuck w/ others.

[Qbert]

I hear this complaint all the time about PSO. Truth be told, I've lost a few items myself. However, this feature has forced me to create stronger relationships with a select few players rather than just some casual aqointances.

Don't think of it as a punishment for dying, think of it as incentive to make good friends.

I don't see why it's so difficult to understand that you only use your rares with people you trust. Is this inconvenient? Not really. I'm not at a loss for people to play with. Maybe you should spend more time making friends than looking for "rares".

[DarkWolf]

Rei, you are SO RIGHT! I wonder why not many games use that system?? I mean, there's a couple OOOLLLDDD rogue-likes that use it... Exp Loss would do well in an online game I think!

And as regards to weapons loss... Hey it's no big deal to me. I use secondaries (2nd Photon Claw, 2nd whatever) in games with my friends (I'm kinda panicky about BSOD still), and cheap POC I can buy in the stores when playing with people I just met. If I get BSOD'ed, big deal, I always have another in the bank, and if I get ripped off, big deal, the thief just got something store-bought, and might actually drop it back on the ground (wishful thinking). http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif