Character Stat Balance and Abilities Discussion (long)

[SieKensou]

I'm posting this for a friend of mine.

"The way I see it, power-gamer wise, it's better to go with a humar. They have only slightly lower MST, but more than make up for
it in their Attack, Defense, and Accuracy ratings. Not to mention the fact
that they can use all the strongest weapons. If you care, here's how I think they should have balanced the classes...

1)--Only rangers should be able to use guns, except for a select few handguns. ALL 9 star special handguns should be Ranger-only. Everything else (handgun, autogun, lockgun, railgun, raygun) should be usable by anyone.

2)--The strength of guns should be dependent upon your Accuracy rating--not
your Strength rating. Since when does how physically strong you are make a difference on how strong a gun is? Accuracy is the way to go. Makes Rangers stronger with guns, too.

3)--Only Forces should be able to use the RA level spells (RAfoie, RAzonde, and RAbarta.

4)--Only Forces should be able to use Grants and Megid.

5)--Only Forces should be able to use spells higher than level 10.

6)--The RAmar should have a much higher max base Attack (should max at 800 or
so), and a much higher max base Defense (seeing as how he's made of metal, for God's sake....should max at around 400). This would make up for his lack of Technique usage, which I'm finding out, is a MAJOR set back. I mean, a HUmar with Shifta casted on him is stronger than a RAmar, and a HUmar with Deband cast on him has better Defense than a RAmar. And the RAmar's inherint
Trap Detection and Immunity to poison and standard paralysis in NO WAY makes up for this.

7)--All Android types should be COMPLETELY immune to ALL status ailments, save for Short (when he/she gets hit by lightning and it paralyzes them).

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_cool.gif--Forces should have their base Magic Strength max out around 900 or so, seeing as how it's their specialty. I mean, come on!!! The max for a FOnewm is only 670---only 80 more than a HUmar. That's not a whole lot to make a difference. 80 more points only equates to about 30-50 more damage. And
while 30-50 more damage might seem decent, it in no balances them out with HUmars who can dish out HUGE amounts of damage with a melee weapon or gun.
FIX IT!!

9)--The RAcast and RAcaseal's base Accuracy max should be MUCH higher. Seeing as how they're Androids and all, a higher accuracy is more......i dunno......fitting? And if the strength of guns would be dependant upon Accuracy, this will give RAcast a bit more
balance since the RAmar can cast spells. In other words, give them something more than a few more measly points of Accuracy and Attack to give players a reason for picking one of these 2 classes.

10)--All Female-types should have much higher max Evade base stats. Since Females tend to be more lithe and limber, it's more fitting to have them able to dodge and deflect attacks better.

11)--All Male-types should have higher max Attack and Defense base stats. Since males are typically stronger and more robust than Females, it's more fitting.

12)--All Female's that can cast spells should have higher base Magic Attack base stats. Since females tend to be more "in tune" with their emotions and their mind, it's more fitting.

13)--And one final thing---More class/sex specific weaponry. This will give players a good reason to pick one character over another.

Well, that's about all I can think of. Feel free to contribute if you like. It seems that Sonic Team really didn't put much thought into the game balance of the available characters. It take a bit away from the game when one certain class of character puts the smack down on every other one ::cough-HUmar-cough::. When they let stuff like this slip, it's no wonder 99% of pso's players use the HUmar. Makes me not want to use one for the fact that they're everywhere."

Comments and discussion appreciated. Thanks for reading!

[darvos]

i was thinking only forces should get support spells like resta/shifta/deband. this way, the game is more fun when playing with skillful teammates. forces want to play with good hunters who doesn't require resta every 2 seconds and hunters want to play with good forces who can keep you alive. of course if the game is set up this way, the way you get xp have to be changed. this will also make offline difficult, but then this game has the word 'online' in the title.

other than numerical stats, other things should determine the characteristics of different classes. for example hucasts move slower than humars, but have more powerful attacks. hunewearls use daggers better than humars, but sucks with swords. ramars get lighting spells only, but humars get fire spells. in other words, make it like a pseudo fighting game where different character has different moves (i'd love to see pso play like the 70 person battle in shen mue, sega should give this project to Yu Suzuki).

a little off topic, but somewhat relevant. weapons too powerful should not exist at all. all weapons should have advantages and disadvantages. normal weapons are pretty well balanced already i think, but a little more difference between swords/partisans sabers/daggers wouldn't hurt. stuff like the spread needle and heavenly punishment is just wrong (but i think the spread needle attack makes a good android only skill (maybe only paralyze, doesn't do any damage) and heavenly punishment makes a good spell(make it really slow)).

just my opinions.

[SieKensou]

Hopefully in version 2, the Force will be made more appealing to play. A high level humar isn't too far off from having similar tech abilities, on top of being able to destroy with a partisan, mechgun, or sword. Really, other than appearance, why even play a Force?

And, the androids should definetely have much higher defense than the others.

[Holocaust]

Good ideas. I was planning to post a similar topic. I was on the same page about the sex specific weapons. Rangers should be the only ones who can wield fire arms. Especially something like the SPREAD NEEDLE. Force characters HAVE to be upgraded. A high level HUnewearl is almost as strong as a force. There should be more diversity amongst the characters within specific classes (even more than now). HUcast should be significantly more powerful than HUmar for example. I think movement speed should be more of a factor too. Androids perhaps could be a bit slower inherently than other races. Newmans perhaps more agile and Humans somewhere inbetween. BTW does anyone want to see the MAGs be more active in battle? Maybe certain MAGs could give you advanced combo capabilities (Double Saber combo gets extended to 9 hits instead of 6)or a MAG can attack also maybe a point defence type of thing. Something other than generic photon blasts. I have a lot of things Ive been thinking about. What else do you think would diversify or balance the game?

[Wu]

OK, about RA needing more class specific weapons, how about the hunters? Sbeats are daggers, chainsawd is a sword, and soul eater is a partisan. Do we even have ONE class specific weapon?
Yet there is no rifle-like weapon that a HU can equip, we can use a spread needle and most handguns, but no rifle.
And forces need better weapons. I use my mind railgun way more that any of the crap that they have. Only thing they are good for is raising mst a little if you are close to learning a new spell.

[Blackheart]

Hmm in the way of ideas for PSO, i have tons..
Mags: Make mags capable of going to higher Lvs, and give them other special abilities besides Photon Blasts, and Casting spells on you like...
1.Being able to equip special types of Mags as a regular weapon or armor once they evolve a certian way.
2.Being able to block attacks, and or counter attack for you.
3.Being able to increase other stats for you, Hp, Tp, Luck, etc...
4.Possessing spells that you can only use with that Mag.
Char Stats: I agree with the above comments on char stats, but maybe not THAT disadvantageous to HUmars, and other classes, but of course the Force chars should be upgraded, and given spells only they can use. And of course more Class and gender, and species specific weapons and armors. Like things only male/female chars can use, Androids, Humans, Newmans.
urgggh, i had more ideas, but they seem to have evaded me now, heh

[Defend]

Yeh, more individual character classes would've been much better. I reckon that various stats should build on how you fight.. like whena baddie dies, you get EXO sure, but little extras like for MST, ATA, ATP and the like. These would be tiny additions, but when you level say, you would get the sum of all these little extras.. so people like me (a HUnewearl that is seriously doped up on fluids and magic) would grow faster in the areas they get most practise in. Hunters that use guns alot would enjoy watching their accuracy grow as they use them alot.
So by about level 40, you've got exactly the same characters having all sorts of different skills in different areas.

[Torment]

Thanks for posing my write-up, Kevin (aka SeiKensou). I appreciate it. It looks like PSOWorld finally allowed me to register. =D

Anyways, i have some more ideas on how they could better balance the classes in PSO...

1)--Eliminate DIM-type weaponry and instead have it to where only Rangers can perform Instant Kills based on his/her Accuracy rating. There would be a base percentage (like 5% or something) and it would increase as the Ranger's Accuracy increased (like +1% every 4 levels).

2)--Since Android-types get the shaft when it comes to their humanesque counterparts, how about balance them out by giving them their own form of techniques? Not magic......but special moves or whatnot. Like, instead of Resta, an Android-type would perform Self Repair to heal him/herself. And instead of...say...Foi.....he/she would perform Booster Rocket. Basically akin to the way WREN from PS4 had special moves. Tell me that wouldn't be badass? =D

Hmmm...that's about all I can think of right now of the top of my head....although there are a lot more that i've thought of that I can't seem to remember (it IS 645am here in Indy =). I'm trying my hardest to keep this all game balance related, rather than ways to overall improve the game. Thanks to all who have responded. =D

[MechDan]

Why do you want a rifle like weapon? They're just ugly handguns with very slightly slower speed and very slightly longer range.

If it makes you feel any better, the Spread Needle is held like a rifle (rather than like a shotgun), so it's sort of the Hunter's "rifle" also.

I just wish there were a cool mech-gun like rare.

[Wu]

Longer range, better ATA, and more power with a rifle.
Not that I really need one for my HU, its just that not having ONE class specific weapon kind of sucks. I should have just made a ranger, if thats the way it works out ya know?

I have a char from each class, a lvl 22 Force, a lvl 60 RAcaseal, and a lvl 78 HUcast. The only one that isnt "unique" is my HUcast, who I have spent the most time on by far. Its a good thing that he is by far the strongest of the three, or Id be really pissed.
HU's should have at least swords/partisans exclusive. Its their best asset, and the most damaging for that class. Just like Forces should have specific spells, and Rangers the only ones that can use a shot.

[Holocaust]

I like the idea about no DIM class weapons, just RA's who can do 1 shot kills depending on accuracy. Im dying for extended combos, but not just having them. Instead having to obtain them, either through advanced MAG development. Or something like Android parts. Or even armor enhancment(Kinda like Diablo2 where some items gave you increased speed etc). Androids should be complete melee specialists.

[Torment]

I remembered a few more ideas to help balance the classes out. Here goes--

1)--Incorperate a Proficiency system, in which after your character levels up, he/she recives a point to distribute toward any one of the weapon types (sabre, sword, handgun, etc). Each Point a character has in a weapon type equates to increased damage, accuracy, and speed with said weapon type. Also, certain classes could be limited in their maximum points that can be allocated to a given Type. For example, a HUmar might only be able to allocate....say....5 points in Handguns, whereas a RAmar can allocate up to.....say....20. EACH class with have it's own set of maximus. Here's the breakdown--

(for example's sake, lets say that the highest anyone can ever achieve in one area is 20 points. Also, let's pretend that my earlier idea of more class restrictive weaponry is in place, and that Android-types excel more than the rest because of their lack of tech usage)

--HUmar--20 sabre, 20 Sword, 10 Dagger, 15 Partisan, 10 Slicer, 5 Handgun

--HUnewearl--15 sabre, 10 sword, 20 dagger, 10 partisan, 20 slicer, 5 handgun

--HUcast--20 in sabre, sword, dagger, partisan, and slicer. 10 in handgun.

--RAmar--5 sabre, 20 handgun, 15 rifle, 20 mechgun, 15 shot

--RAcast--5 sabre, 20 handgun, rifle, mechgun, and shot

--RAcaseal--5 sabre, 20 handgun, rifle, mechgun, and shot

--FOnewearl--5 sabre, 5 handgun, 20 wand, 15 cane, 15 rod

--FOmarl--5 sabre, 5 handgun, 15 wand, 15 cane, 20 rod

--FOnewm--5 sabre, 5 handgun, 15 wand, 20 cane, 15 rod

Again, each point equates to increased damage, accuracy, and speed with said weapon type. And when the character levels up, he/she get's the point to distribute whenever he/she wants to. In other words, after you level up, you don't have to allocate the proficiency point right away.

Also, certain obscure weapons like the Double Sabres and Claws would fall under the closest category they fit into--DS's fall under Sabres and Claws under Daggers.

2)--another idea I had was mentioned a few times earlier--More than 3 attacks in a combo. But like someone mentioned before, it will not be something that's available off the bat. You'd have to earn them through your allocation of Proficiency Points. Say....every 10 points you have in one Proficieny gives you an extra attack with that weapon type.

3)--Android types should be able to equip 2 more slot items than any of the other classes. Basically, an automatic 2 slots without having to have any armor or frame equiped. This will help with their lack of Tech usage, which, the more I play my HUcast, i'm learning is a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR disadvantage.

4)--Give each Class slot items that only they can equip. Things like the HP/restorate, generate, and revival should be Android-type only. Wizard, Devil, and God/Technique should be Force only. Add some new ones that are class-specific.

5)--The God-level of each type of slot item should only be able to be used by certain classes. IE--God/Power can only be used by Android types, God/Mind can only be used by Forces, God/Legs can only be used by Females, God/Arm can only be used by Rangers, God/HP can only be used by Androids, God/Body can only be used by Androids, God/Luck can only be used by Rangers, God/Ability can be used by anyone.

6)--Get rid of State/Maintenance and Trap/Search so that Androids can be more....i dunno...unique?.....with their inherent Trap detection and Status ailment resistance.

7)--Get rid of General, Devil, and God/Battle. Since they proficiency point system would be in place, there would be no need for these items.

That's about it for the new stuff i've thought of. As always, any and all input is appreciated. =D

[MechDan]

Hunters have one unique aspect which overwhelmingly tips the game balance in their favor--high ATP not even limitted to 999. Everyone else gets maxed out at 900 no matter how much bonuses or shifta or anything gets piled on. A Hunter can do tons more damage with an ungrinded handgun than a Ranger can ever do with a maxed out Visk.

Besides, rifles simply aren't much better than the equivalent rarity handgun in any aspect (and they're worse in others). Maybe you get the impression they're much more accurate because rangers hit with them really well. But that's because rangers have higher ATA anyway--give them a handgun and it'll hit just as well (at mid-high levels). The accuracy difference really only affects low levels.

[Wu]

Beleive it or not, my RAcaseal hit her max ATA last night at level 63 (w/slot items in, mag on).
OK, so I dont hardly ever "miss" with the regular shot, but I still hit my specials a lot more often with rifles. My Visk paralyzes a lot more often than my Varista, my Justy halves more often than the devils ray I had been using, and that Dark Laser Ive been using mows them down but good.
Besides that, rifles just look cool.

[Drahktar]

I think it's rediculous that gaining levels does nothing but increase your stats. This game needs a lot more than stats to distinguish between the classes. Hell, what's the difference between two maxed out HUmars?
NOTHING. I suppose you can count appearance. Oooh. There should be a skill tree or something that you advance through as you gain levels. Say at fifth level (as a HUmar) I get a choice between a number of bonuses:
-Powerful Swing: 10% ATA increase when using Sabers os Swords
-Finesse: 5% ATP increase when using Sabers (after taking it, your character would adopt a different stance, resembling fencing, where your 3-chain involves more thrusting attacks)
-Iron Chin: Faster recovery when damaged
-Fleet of Foot: Slightly increased running speed
-and say 6 more
Imagine you picked Finesse. Your next skill bonus at tenth level would involve a choice between 10 more skills, with a few that are available because of your previous choice, like:
-Powerful Swing: 10% ATA increase when using Sabers
-Iron Chin: Faster recovery when damaged
-Fleet of Foot: Slightly increased running speed
-Deadly Strike: When using sabers with no special attack, your special attack now performs a deadly strike. (This would perform a single lunging strike that did 200% damage and had the DIM affect.)
-And 6 others, maybe another of which only people with Finesse can choose.

This would create MUCH more diversity between people and most certainly classes (since they would have entirely different skill trees). I think it would rock if you bumped into a 123rd level HUmar who could use some freaky 5-chain with a Partisan and be amazed at the skills of the person, not just the weapon he's holding.

[MechDan]

Yeah, I maxed out my RAcast's ATP and ATA around level 55. But I never use either a pistol or a rifle except for sniping at a Garanz. A mechgun does more damage, and a shotgun is just plain great!

I use almost exclusively Hard attacks, which almost always hit even at long range (any weapon). The main exception is HP stealing attacks to heal or to damage dark gunners or DF, of course.

Obviously our tastes in the visual appeal of different weapons differ. To me, the rifle is just an ugly yellow thing! (Okay, maybe not always yellow.) I find shotguns particularly ugly also, but they're just too good to not use.

The most aesthetically pleasing Ranger weapon, IMO? Suppressed Gun...it'd be my Garanz sniping weapon of choice if only it had a machine photon bonus...

[rekonstruct]

Those are some killer ideas! Love them all. I think the point system could be used to learn some type of special move too. Kind of like Grandia2, I get sick of the 3-combo system, they need to spice it up a bit. It would be cool to do dash attacks and stuff like that, heck I just wish I could jump! I doubt v2 will be much different, only new levels, weapons, mags, etc. Hopefully PSO2 will be alot more flexible. Who knows, with Sega's new X-Box plans, this game could become something REALLY interesting.

[Torment]

VERY nice idea, Drahktar. I'm really digin' it. Makes me froth at the mouth just imagining the possibilities!! =D

One thing I realize the other day though while I was coming up with ideas--

PSO needs to stay BASIC in order for the masses to flock to the game. One of the major lures of PSO is that it's so easy to pick up and play. However, what Sega should do is to steadily progress the series into more complicated waters as parts 2, 3 and so on come out. Know what i'm saying? Like, PSO is the introduction--keep it basic to get their feet wet. PSO2 adds in some more complex elements such as the point allocation system I mentioned. Then, with part 3, go balls-out and incorperate your idea of Skill Trees. Doing it this way would be best for sales, because you don't want to throw a bunch of complexity at the gamer right off the bat and overwhelm them to the point of gamers not buying the game. Hell, this is the reason why RPGs back in the day were such a niche genre--they were too complicated for the average Joe/Jane to comprehend. And it's still a reason why a lot of gamers stray away from CRPGs. There was never really anything out there that acted as an introduction to the genre, save a few games like FFMQ and the like. But with the widespread success of PSO, I think Sega just might have the game that was needed to really bring the genre into the limelight in a fashion that RPGs so deserve....moreso than FF7 ever did.

Anyways, keep the ideas coming guys and gals!! And remember--please try to keep it all game-balance related. =D

[Xaken]

I agree that Hunters really do have a strong advantage over any other class, and that Forces really get the shaft. The funny thing this, the reason this is true is that Sonic Team (while copying the Diablo model in countless ways) probably tried to make SOME changes and in the process did one of the worst jobs in gameplay balancing I've ever seen.

It's really sad that Hunters can actually be MORE effective than a Ranger with guns. Since they can use Mechguns and Handguns in the same manner, the natural power advantage of the hunter just makes them out right better at using them. Rangers have rifles and shotguns to themselves, but that's hardly an equalizer. Rifles have nearly nothing to make them better than handguns (they have a insignificantly longer range, and barely noticable increase in rate of fire). In all, there is NO real reason to use a Ranger instead of a Hunter unless you just REALLY like spread fire.

Then you have Forces. No only is there increaced magical power of almost no value in terms a actually doing more damage, but magis as a whole in this game is more utilitarian than out right damaging. There some be AT LEAST a 50% increase in spell damage (for forces if not for everyone). Add to that, the pitiful excuss for weapons that Forces can use. Wands, Staves, and Canes have zero useful value. They have no range, no damage potential, and they don't even make much of a fasion statment.

In Diablo, archers had a more than significant boost in rate of fire making bow weapons a very useful for them, and nearly unsuable by others.

To level things for Rangers: They should have an increased rate of fire. This could be done many was. They could make successive shots be quicker, they could decrease the down time between vollies, or (my personal choice) they could be aloud to combo out to 4 or 5 shots rather than the standard 3 when using guns (and perhaps be reduced to 2 with non-guns).

In Diablo, staff weapons allowed magic charges that could be used to cast spells without the cost of MP.

To balance things for Forces: There are only 3 staves in ALL of PSO that where done right. The Technical Cozier, the Magical Peace and (I can never remember the last one, but it casts Foie). There should be FAR more staves like these, ones for each spell. And they should NOT be to hard to get. Magic is weak as it is, having one spell for free is not some outlandish advantage.

Other things that could be done to staves:

1. Increased range. If you play the quest "From the Depths" you need to fight a FOmarl about half way through Ruins 2. Though she is only using a wand her attack range is nearly twice that of a long sword. I think this would be fair since the damge done by the wand isn'y enough to make it cheap. These are "forces" after all. People with "magic powers". Why not give them a class of weapons with magic as part of their design.

2. Make staves as important to your defence as they are to your attack. A stave should add to a characters evade (significantly). One of the advantages of a real life staff weapon is being able to defect attacks.

3. Make element staves boost magic of that element (ei: a Fire Wand should make your fire spells do more damage).

This brings me to my next balancing issue: Special Attacks. Nearly all special attacks have little to no value. You miss constantly and even when you hit the special part rarely works and you do half damage?!?! Why both ever using them at ALL. The fact that they miss a lot should be tossed out completely. There is no reason they can't be just as acurate as normal attacks. The half damage I can exect for most all, but the success rate of the effect itself should only be as low as the current hit rate.

Final there is the issue of elemental damage. In general you have an enemy that takes no damage from one element, takes reduced damage from another, and then takes some damage from the third. This is SAD. The point of an element systems is that the enemy should have WEAKNESSES to at least one element. The only real use for ice is to freeze things really, pactically nothing can be killed by ice alone. Fire or lightening either for that matter. The spells are just plain weak, against everything. Take elemental attacks for example. They are all WORTHLESS for damage. You're lucky if you can do 1/4 what you can do physically, and chances are you'll miss anyway.

What i find funny is that all these balancing problems are from points in the game desing where Sonic Team diverged from the Diablo model. Had they made a more actuate clone they would have made a far better game.