Casual gamers...a bad thing?

[Dragon_Knight]

One appaling thing has come to my attention in recent weeks...few of the vocal people seem to like casual gamers. I'm not sure where this has started, but in recent times I have been critized for being a "casual gamer" Mostly these are from competative games such as Tekken (which I compleatly suck at) or Armored Core (to which I find insane they keep adding difficulty to each new game). However I have also recived flames from many other people on one player games like Disgeae (one flame was from me asking how to beat a map where EVERY enemy was givin six times his normal stats and you HAD to beat them).

I don't quite understand why, but the fact that I claim to be a casual gamer almost seems to draw more flames then me being a cheater and its almost always about how I'm destroying the video game industry. I could certainly understand being flamed for using God codes in competative games against another player, not that I would given I took a challange on. But why is it the fact I find a game a little too difficult in one spot so wrong? One flame went for over 5 posts and spanned what would be the equivolent of 9 paragrahps (mostly explicatives mind you, but he was basicaly saying how I ruined the gameing industry), but ONLY after I responded "yes" to being a casual gamer.

The most recent infringment on me was when someone asked for codes to a recently released game, given that I'm a cheater from time to time and like to keep up with codes to favorte games, I posted some I had. Then I went away to retrive the Inifinte HP and Money codes he also wanted. By the time I had come back to the topic several people had flamed him (and me) for being cheaters and one made a remark about "those damn casual gamers"

Now tell me, whats your opinion about being a "casual gamer?"

[BlackCanaryOfDeath]

Why isn't there a "Gamers are good" choice?

[starhealer]

People will find any reason to rag on another person. Being a casual gamer is just one such reason.

I find it pathetic that someone can flame you because you don't make gaming the number one aspect of your life. And flaming someone because they found a level difficult? That's just downright stupid. I don't believe there is anyone that hasn't hit a part in a game where they had trouble or needed help. Saying someone is ruining the gaming community because they ask for help is simply being elitist and stupid.

Besides, you don't see them flaming the creators of FAQs, now do you? More people rely on walkthroughs than codes and if you can tell me with a straight face that a walkthrough doesn't make a game easy and can ruin the experience (for a first-time player of said game) then I wish I could smack you upside the head.

[Kizaragu]

I PERSONALLY don't have a problem with casual gamers but I can see why people do.

To alot of hardcore gamers, the casual ones are to gaming what manufactured pop is to music.
They see them as the people who buy Tomb Raider games. They wouldn't mind but it's the fact that it's constantly in there face.
Don't take it personally, your just stuck with the stereotype I guess?
(Therefore making yourself an easy target.)





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kizaragu on 2003-11-11 13:48 ]</font>

[darthsaber9x9]

if they are flaming for not comepleting a level, that makes them nerds then. I can see the potential problem with casual also. It is often these casual, more inexperienced gamers that keep weak games in the market simply because they dont know any better. I dont have a problem with it. EXCEPT all thos damm cauals who brought the playstation despite the saturn haveing clearly superior games...and lets face it, during the late 90's the playstation churned out so many SHITE games...moses prince of egypt anyone?( it was basically a slidey puzzle and a colouring book)none of that crap on the saturn o no sir. but hey man, nowt against u!

[neko-chan]

To begin with, any self proclaimed Tekken "hardcore player" should be castrated because he simply hasn't understand that Tekken is the shitties beat'em up series ever.

A Tekken "hardcore player" simply means some brainless button smasher, as it Tekken doesn't require any skill but pressing buttons without any logic.

A real beat'em up "hardcore player" would rather play Neo Geo carts or SNK arcades (now, that's a challenge) or VF4 or even Soul Calibur.

As for for people that like to label you as "casual gamer" I guess you should find a way to castrate them all, so they can't reproduce.

[Dragon_Knight]

darthsaber9x9- Wow, I bought a Saturn long before the playsation too. Fact is I still have mine and it works. Yea it had good games, but I don't think it was casual people who made Playsation popular. I just don't see it happening that way.

Kizaragu- I never liked the Tomb Raider games, give me Valkyrie Wild anyday then we'll talk.

[Kizaragu]

Kizaragu- I never liked the Tomb Raider games, give me Valkyrie Wild anyday then we'll talk.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif I never said you did. I said that's the general stereotype of Casual gamers.
It's not my personal opinion.

[KaFKa]

my outlook on this is that casual gamers are a necessity. not a necessary evil, but a necessity. im somewhat a casual gamer in that i only rent flavor-of-the-month games purely out of curiosity. if it weren't for all the people that buy a system for one game, play the game until they get to a hard part, then buy another game, the gaming industry would still be an underground type of thing just isnt mainstream. but nonetheless, i HATE people that flame in their xenophobic quest to make everything that made the industry what it is today be gone. (although i dont like the ep3 thing very much) i would put more, but im tired, and sleep is good.

[anwserman]

Well, if it wasn't for the casual gamer, the Dreamcast would still be alive and kickin. God knows it wasn't Fantavision that helped break system lauch records for the PS2... SSX, maybe, but that was the best launch title and even that game wasn't.. excellent per say.

Not compared to Dreamcast's launch titles such as Sonic Adventure or Soul Calibur.

[DarthFomar]

In my opinion: your a gamer as long as you play games, so what's the difference. If people rag on you for being a casual gamer, just ignore them. You are a gamer either way: hardcore or casual.

That's like saying "This frag grenade will hurt more than this same exact frag grenade". There's no specific way to live your life. Do what you want.

If you dont play games 24-7, then guess what, you have something that most other people don't have..."a life". People that classify gamers just aren't worth the effort.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2003-11-12 17:39 ]</font>

[Reenee]

On 2003-11-11 14:40, Dragon_Knight wrote:
Kizaragu- I never liked the Tomb Raider games, give me Valkyrie Wild anyday then we'll talk.



*punches hard in the face*

You dolt! That was an April Fool's joke.

[opaopajr]

it was the casuals that killed disco...

it was the casuals that killed Jet Set Radio...

it was the casuals that killed peace, love freedom and justice...

oh god the humanity!!! may you cruel fiends rot in hell!!

-with love opaopajr http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Dragon_Knight]

Reenee- Alas if only it wasn't.

[_Sinue_]

That Frag Grenade compairison isn't really relevant.

There is a huge difference between an Audiophile and a guy just looking for a loud stereo.

There is a huge difference between a Wine Conesuer and someone who buys $5.00 wine in a box.

There is a huge difference between a Gearhead and someone who just drives what looks fast.

The difference, is quality. It costs millions of dollars to produce games these days because of the strains of an exploding tech industry has had on it. Development tools can't keep up with the hardware and the demand to push it. It can be done, but at great cost and manpower. A large development team 10 years ago was 15 people. Today, you're talking well over 60 to 70 people on your average title. So game development companies tend not to take multi-million dollar risks, and focus on pleasing the casuals who do not DEMAND the quality that hardcore gamers do. Hardcore gamers are thus, often left out in the cold.

Shenmue, for example of one extreem, cost 20 Million to develop. It's sequel cost even more than that. Why should a development company make a game like that when they could create a FPS for 1 million and a ton of bugs. Who cares if it doesn't sell well.. it'll at least make a profit on those few who pick it up just because the box art looks cool and it has lots of blood. The market is now flooded with those kind of titles because of that mentality.

I personally love games that break the mold, and aren't afriad to branch out in new directions. Unfortunately, you can't get that in an industry that demands conformity for the sake of riding a hot selling trend.

[Skett]

I have no beef with any gamer as long as he/she knows what makes the games good: gameplay. I hate it when people say that graphics are the best thing in games. I think back to a guy who got a really high score in one level of SSX Tricky and says that good graphics are what games are about (anyone who has and watches G4 has most likely saw the commercial).

Yosh...

[JohanCC]

Ragging on somebody for being a casual gamer is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard!

[anwserman]

I've come up with some new definitions for this thread:

Hardcore Gamer: Owns one or more systems of the current generation, plus perhaps some systems of previous generations, or have had some within their lifetime. Looks forward to games that are coming out. Possibly writes letters to game companies with suggestions for games, ideas, etc. Has one-of-a-kind accessories (Samba De Amigo maracas, Typing of the Dead keyboards, DDR dance pads, X-Box Live). Also has really obscure games, or games that don't really fit mainstream appeal.

Casual Gamer: Owns one system of the current generation, plus perhapos some systems of previous generations, or had some within their lifetime. Browses games with no real intent - e.g., not looking for a certain brand or franchise, anything that interests them. Complains about games to their friends, but not complaining to the company per say. Limited collection of games (ranging from obscure/limited to general appeal, former being a fluke ), with no unique accessories.

[b]Wanna-be Gamer: Typically owns the popular system of the time, owns only the most mainstream games (a.k.a. only what friends have), only has the popular systems of previous generations in his collection, and typically no unique accessories. Might not purchase his own games, might depend on other sources of getting his hands on a game disc.

Fanboy: See Wanna-Be Gamer, except only worse. Doesn't always own the most mainstream/popular system of current/previous generations, but he will insist it is the best system that man has ever seen and proceed to lay the smack down on any other system, and harass, insult and demean anybody who doesn't own his same system.


Anyone else agree?

[DarthFomar]

There is no difference. If you play games you are a gamer...nuff said.

[Mixfortune]

On 2003-11-13 06:54, _Sinue_ wrote:

I personally love games that break the mold, and aren't afriad to branch out in new directions. Unfortunately, you can't get that in an industry that demands conformity for the sake of riding a hot selling trend.



I agree.

Unfortunately, in the industry, the programmers and gamers don't make the decisions as far as what the game will be set in, and have little influence over what sort of genre their project would be set in. If you get a soccer game project, well you better damn well make a soccer game project, regardless of whether you like that sort of game or even know anything about that sort of game. You could get Mr. FinalFantasy over here who's big on the RPGs. As a member of the development team, he is handed a section of a Parlor Game to make, yet he know jacks*** about what makes Parlor Games interesting.

So what happens? The "Suits", a little nickname for the corporate business execs and marketers, make the decisions. Needless to say, very few "Suits" play games, and think that the newest Army Men game would be a perfect gift for the holidays. Heh, good luck...

And dude, they're GAMES! Anyone who tries to better themselves based solely on how much games they played is a loser :x Although the same can be said for anyone who betters themselves based solely on anything. And by "better themselves" I mean to bring themselves up and cut others down.

But yeah, this sort of stuff is important to me. Especially since I'm in the godd*** industry :x

EDIT- Didn't want Smilies on.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mixfortune on 2003-11-14 02:29 ]</font>

[Dragon_Knight]

Actually the whole "don't wanna take risks" is a widespread thing in big business. Every major company, gaming or not, has adopted that philosophy. So instead of making money off quality products, they reitterate a previous product to add some money and cut costs by stabbing the workforce.

[hollowtip]

To lump all casual gamers into one category is ignorant. If you sign up for a PSO forum, and regularly post threads, I wouldn't exactly consider you a casual gamer.

But to get back on topic, I agree with _Sinue_ on a lot of the points he brings to light, and casual gamers do fuel the industry to a certain extent, although I do think that many games that have become popularized by the casual gamer are quality titles. The Tony Hawk series for example, puts in so many gameplay elements that there is an obvious gap between veterans of the series, and rookies, who just picked up the game for the first time.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hollowtip on 2003-11-14 10:43 ]</font>

[_Sinue_]

So what happens? The "Suits", a little nickname for the corporate business execs and marketers

Or as their otherwise known, the Publishers. These are the people that hold the big bucks, and hire smaller (often less talented) development houses out on contract to create, port, or outsource their development. Whereas at one time, only ONE logo appeared in the opening scenes to a game - now you're "intro" is littered with several gaming companies.

Sierra is a notoriously BAD publisher, although it's not ENTIRELY their fault - as their owned (they are the bitches of,) Vivendi International. A French conglomerate who's major holdings are not even in the gaming industry. All they care about is the bottom line, so all Sierra has to care about is the bottom line. They in turn, cut corners wherever they possibly can. If you have company create a successful franchise (Dynamix, with TRIBES for example).. then eventually that game will become popular enough to sell on name alone. So after some time, you axe the talented (and better paid) development house and hand the project over to a smaller company who will create it for a fraction of the price (And usually quality). Tribes: Ariel Assualt for the PS2 is a horrible excuse for a game - and slap in the face to the series. Really, what kind of jackholes takes COMMUNICATION out of a TEAM BASED fps?!?

There's a saying that goes like, "Too many cooks spoil the soup" - and that's exactly what we're seeing in the game industry.


Actually the whole "don't wanna take risks" is a widespread thing in big business. Every major company, gaming or not, has adopted that philosophy.

True enough, although it happens with more and more frequency when the manufacturing cost of the product rises exponentially like it has in gaming. This is, like I said above, why you have people in each market who are best of the best - because they love their hobby and only buy the (fewer) but higher quality products.

It's actually a very good point to keep in mind when you go shopping for any major purchase. Search out the people who enjoy that stuff for a hobby and ask their opinions. They follow their respective industries closely and can give you good advice on getting the absolute best quality for your dollar.

Hardcore Gamers, Gearheads, Conesuers, Gourmets, Audio/Videophiles, Tech Heads.. these are all multiple terms for the same basic type of person.


Although I do think that many games that have become popularized by the casual gamer are quality titles. The Tony Hawk series for example, puts in so many gameplay elements that there is an obvious gap between veterans of the series, and rookies, who just picked up the game for the first time.

True, and I'm not saying that the market is completely devoid of quality titles or games made to please both the hardcore AND the casual at the same time with a mix of great gameplay and popular concepts. I would disagree with you on Tony Hawk in particular though. THPS1 was an amazing game which broke a lot of molds and introduced a very robust game engine. However, since THPS1, the series has just been milked over and over again. Maybe it's just my perception, since I don't like Sports games.. but it's the same thing being released each time at full retail price with just a new coat of paint and a few new tweaks with each version. There's like 5 games in the series, not counting the Portable versions, in the span of about 4 years. That's called "Humping the Cash Cow" if you ask me.

(Then again, look at Phantasy Star, PSO v.2, PSO Ep I & II, PSO Ep I & II Plus, PSO Ep III.. and the "rumored to be in development" PSO2)

*Shrug* Guess it all depends on what you're a fan of.

[anwserman]

OK, THPS and PSO are milking consumers, but those games milk rather then "rape" - see Tomb Raider franchise.

I don't care whether or not the gameplay remains the same, as long as the game is enjoyable. I own THPS, but since I got burned out from playing the first one so much, I have no real ambition to buy a sequel to it. But I did enjoy every second I played with the dumb game, and they deserve to make sequels with the same gameplay (even if it already has been used before) because it is decent enough to remain enjoyable throughout various iterations.

Tomb Raider, on the other hand, was once good and has degenerated into a pile of crap. I personally don't play the games, just read reviews (and player comments), and I don't find the games interesting at all. But after the atrocity called "Angel of Darkness" (a lot of people called it that), Eidos knew their franchise was going to hell and got a new developer to work on Lara, Crystal Dynamics.

Milking is taking money from a successful, good-gameplay franchise, raping is taking money from a successful, lackluster-gameplay franchise.

[The_Pea_Guy]

Casual Gamer or Hardcore Gamer - Which category do I fit in?

To be honest, I really don't give a shit.

At the end of the day, gaming is meant to be a fun and enjoyable hobby. I cannot understand why some people who play games are more concerned about being a console zealot or casual/hardcore gamer when all the hobby is really about playing computer games and having a fun experience.

That's my two cents.