corporate abuse - protection policy for gamers?

[dark_agenda]

I asked myself this question today:

What kind of steps should be taken to keep the legitimacy of a game by the production team and parent company?

I am an offline pso-er only, so I can not make much fuss about the kind of shape the online mode is in. But I was there for pso ep1. on the dreamcast, and I remember how bad it was. You could walk into a game and see literally hundreds of elite rares on the ground. Trying to play the game was somewhat of a hassle what with the FSOD and BSOD. I'm fairly certain that it is safe for me to assume that the online world for the GC and even the XBox are the same as they were for the DC. Both in a wretched state of lawlessness.

This, however, is not the point of this topic. What I want to get at is how far should a company go to protect the integrity of their own games. The people making these games are out for one thing, to try to create a product that people will enjoy, spend lots of money on, and continue playing it even if they need to buy an entirely different console *cough* *cough* pso, ahem. At any rate, I feel that ST and any other company that has created an online game of any type should use all the power and muscle that their corporate embodiment can muster to keep the game fun, fair and balanced.

Most games are not meant to be cheated at, it happens when players become bored with what is offered and must find alternate methods for enjoying the once highlight of their day. I think companies should do a better job at enforcing the integrity of the games they make. I am curious to see what many of you think on this topic, so please come out with your opinions on what you think should be done. If not for current games, but for future.

[primer567]

Most games are not meant to be cheated at, it happens when players become bored with what is offered and must find alternate methods for enjoying the once highlight of their day. I think companies should do a better job at enforcing the integrity of the games they make.
Not all cheaters actually played PSO and got bored with it, some cheated from the start. Also, there is really nothing ST can do there are plenty of people out there that know how to program just as well as ST employees so I never see cheats ever going away.

[BogusKun]

I am an offline pso-er only

Mmmkay. Well it's really hard to be concerend about OUR ONLINE community. Seeing that ummm... you're not online... yet.

[dark_agenda]

Just because I do not have a modem for my cube does not mean I don't play games like ooooh say Diablo 2, Everquest to name a few. I know how online communities become corrupted, it happened with D2... and oddly enough, it has most of the same characteristics as PSO-DC had..... hmm.....

Edit: Also, do not flame me because I do not play PSO online... I'm concerned about the status of every MMO capable game, not just this one.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dark_agenda on 2003-11-19 18:30 ]</font>

[Superguppie]

I think the integrity question is quite a good one. In the manual and on the webpage you can get an idea of what the company is offering. If what is actualy there is something different because the company fails to enforce the rules that should keep the online product in a state that corresponds with what is offered, the company is at fault. (I pay them every month for a month of product. I do so only because I want the product on offer)
In this it has to be considered what can be reasonably expected of the company. It's not realistic to expect an online system to be completely hacker-proof. But banning ppl who are caught ruining the product is imho reasonable. (Even if it costs money.) And I think it is also reasonable to expect the company to actively look for perpetrators.

As for the offline game. The product is provided 'as is', meaning you can do with it what you want, with the company under no obligation...

[tank1]

the only way u would stop dupers and hackers is to ban them permanetly.But even then st would be shooting themselves in the foot because they would be loosing customers and i think ultimately sega cares more about money than our happiness.

[Superguppie]

On 2003-11-20 05:04, tank1 wrote:
the only way u would stop dupers and hackers is to ban them permanetly.But even then st would be shooting themselves in the foot because they would be loosing customers and i think ultimately sega cares more about money than our happiness.


Not necessarily. I have played with several ppl that have quit because the hatred of cheating got the better of them. Who knows how many ppl would NOT have quit if the worst of the lot had been banned.
Ofcourse there's no telling, as we never hear from them anymore...

[BogusKun]

On 2003-11-19 17:44, dark_agenda wrote:
Just because I do not have a modem for my cube does not mean I don't play games like ooooh say Diablo 2, Everquest to name a few. I know how online communities become corrupted, it happened with D2... and oddly enough, it has most of the same characteristics as PSO-DC had..... hmm.....

Edit: Also, do not flame me because I do not play PSO online... I'm concerned about the status of every MMO capable game, not just this one.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dark_agenda on 2003-11-19 18:30 ]</font>


Not quite, first off this is PSOGC... Not DC or Everqu33r or Dia BLOWs... This is a totaly different game with different meaning and/or status in the "ABUSEMENT" park. The same abuse DC ver suffered has not found it's way into PSOGC. Typically because the General Public DOES NOT... use cheating devices or such. They only say what they want to do... and then do one or two things

1. Lie about it

or

2. Actually do it if it is possible.

So for now be safe because we never know WHEN people will abuse the rules put out for this game... maybe today, tonight, tomorrow, next year, maybe 2... Or when the game is no longer played online anymore.

So is nothing to worry about.

[dark_agenda]

I'm just using PSO as an example of a game in which there are several cultures: those who play by the rules, and those that bend them blatantly. I know that in any MMO game, there are going to be people that fall into these categories.

I agree with superguppie on the issue of banning as a tool, but perhaps complete banishment is not the answer entirely. Take everquest for example. There are very few people that cheat, if they do they keep a low profile because of the large amount of moderation that takes place. It's not hard to find a game mod while playing and let him know what your gripes are. I honestly think this is the best way to go for the online genre, simply because the moderators are acting as a company representative to all of its product users.

[SpyroDi]

Well,you might know that Blizzard,maker of Starcraft/Diablo/Warcraft,actually takes action against these hackers,because it violates their Battle.net Terms of Use Agreement:



4. Your Use of Battle.net.

A. You are entitled to use Battle.net for your own personal use, but you shall not be entitled to

...

(v) use any third-party software to modify Battle.net to change game play, including, but not limited to cheats and/or hacks

You see,Blizzard actually bans people because they either didn't read the thing,or they knew and are just stupid.

If ST would actually fix things up on the servers,then it would be a better game for everyone.

Edit: I play SC and D2 myself,and I must say I know what you mean.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SpyroDi on 2003-11-20 13:56 ]</font>

[darthsaber9x9]

well as for the EULA, i think ina nother thread, the user agreement was carefully examined and people found that ST dont actually say anythign that prohibits cheating, or summign like that, im probably wrong

[dark_agenda]

That's something I think i'm going to look up on. Is the EULA for pso in the instruction booklet, or do you not see it until you sign up to play online?

[Barubary6]

I completely disagree with any policy that bans cheaters. What companies should do instead is prevent cheating, and simply fix any cheats that *are* found, rather than ban people.

-- Barubary

[Superguppie]

On 2003-11-20 20:29, Barubary6 wrote:
I completely disagree with any policy that bans cheaters. What companies should do instead is prevent cheating, and simply fix any cheats that *are* found, rather than ban people.

-- Barubary


Ofcourse you disagree...

Anyway, I think banning ppl who misbehave (with the main misbehavior thing ruining the game for others) should be applied. If a cheat is misbehavior that warrants banning remains to be seen.
As you say, fixing the cheats is a more constructive way to go about the problem. Keeps the hackers an elite group of highly skilled ppl that enjoy the game in a somewhat weird way, and the rest of the ppl normal players.



On 2003-11-20 11:40, dark_agenda wrote:
because of the large amount of moderation that takes place. It's not hard to find a game mod while playing and let him know what your gripes are.

Heyyy, there's a thought I haven't seen around here before. Yeah, that might be a good one. Moderators as a sort of police force. However, that would still leave the question of what to do to felons. Banning is not the answer, but what is?

[AppieDPC]

On 2003-11-21 01:37, Superguppie wrote:


On 2003-11-20 20:29, Barubary6 wrote:
I completely disagree with any policy that bans cheaters. What companies should do instead is prevent cheating, and simply fix any cheats that *are* found, rather than ban people.

-- Barubary


Ofcourse you disagree...


Banning wouldn't solve anything, the method Barubary6 suggested does. Her/His method takes out the problem at the "root" of its existence. Banning people isn't getting rid of something at the "root". People get banned, buy a new CD(or get a new serial) or new people come and cheat. By making patches nobody is going to cheat again.
So I totally agree with Barubary6 on this one.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AppieDPC on 2003-11-21 02:58 ]</font>

[Jkid]

Actully, ST can also Ban MAC addresses. So that if the banned user tries to log on he won't be able to.

[AppieDPC]

Still...
If a hacker/cheater whatever wants to get online after he is banned in one way or the other. He WILL get back online. There is always a way. Lets not forget how addicting PSO can be.

[BogusKun]

On 2003-11-21 01:37, Superguppie wrote:
[quote]
On 2003-11-20 20:29, Barubary6 wrote:
I completely disagree with any policy that bans cheaters. What companies should do instead is prevent cheating, and simply fix any cheats that *are* found, rather than ban people.

-- Barubary


Ofcourse you disagree...

[quote]

LOL, dude you made it seem as if his quote wasn't important. LOL!

My view on cheating is allow it. It truely isn't important, only the people I play with. Otherwise I'd be smart enough to play games such as FFxi or Mario Kart DD

[primer567]

On 2003-11-21 13:27, Jkid wrote:
Actully, ST can also Ban MAC addresses. So that if the banned user tries to log on he won't be able to.

Why would they do that instead of just banning your IP?

[dark_agenda]

If the mac addy of your cube's modem is banned you can't log in using your gamecube. With IP banning, you could just have a dial-up connection or use proxies to get around the ban.

I agree that things like duping and other lower forms of hacking could be stopped at the root. They should do this, but how will they know what cheats are being exploited unless they either:

A) have people that monitor, play, and patrol the game that work for them

or

B) get gamers to come and tell them what is wrong with their game

I'd say, of my choices, A is the easiest to implement...

Most people in their right mind wouldn't tell a company about a major bug that benefits them

[Jkid]

In my opinion, I think option B will be a wise choice. Blizzard does it to let users report cheaters and bugs. And Sonic Team is using it to some extent (for reporting bad users or for reporting cheaters.)

[ADE]

"I completely disagree with any policy that bans cheaters. What companies should do instead is prevent cheating, and simply fix any cheats that *are* found, rather than ban people."

Of course you do. You commit Federal Offenses on a daily basis by accessing servers that you do not own.

[dark_agenda]

Honestly, how can a company prevent cheating? Servers will never be safe because security software only acts as a deterent, it's kind of like cars...

A carjacker strolls into a parking lot looking for nice cars to steal... he picks out a few potentials and checks out the alarm riggings and protection equipment... this guy knows he can steal any car he wants, but he would be wise to choose the one that is easiest to break into... this is a similar scenario when it comes to breaking into servers. There is no stopping a hacker that has the means and the motive to break into your game servers to hack some items, one can only cut the number of hackers that can by adding more security.

Essentially, the only cheating that can be prevented are "bugs" in the game programming, since all of these are created by the company anyway. If ST wanted to, they could have easily gotten rid of the dupe bugs.

Let's say, hypothetically, that a company does create a "hack-proof" MMO game. People will still look for ways to improve themselves more quickly but it will only be done using the rules set forth by the game. Who is to say that someone will not hex a few items onto their memory card or even edit their character's data directly...

I believe it's a nearly impossible task to try and prevent any cheating from ever occurring. The thing that matters most is how quickly and how effectively you can deal with the cheating methods being used. If servers are being hacked, analyze the footprints left behind and find your vulnerabilities, find out what kind of hacking went on (i.e. drops that haven't been implemented yet), make a patch and find the person using the item the next time he gets online. These are really the only means a company has at protecting the integrity of their games. And I believe banning malicious users is the most aggressive, most powerful message the creators can send.

[BogusKun]

Think about this...

It's all about the cash.

[VioletSkye]

On 2003-11-22 21:23, ADE wrote:
"I completely disagree with any policy that bans cheaters. What companies should do instead is prevent cheating, and simply fix any cheats that *are* found, rather than ban people."

Of course you do. You commit Federal Offenses on a daily basis by accessing servers that you do not own.


Accessing the server is not a federal offense. ANYONE who plays online is accessing the servers and do any of us own them. No. Also it is my understanding that Baru runs his own servers. That is not a federal offense either.

[dark_agenda]

On 2003-11-19 15:26, dark_agenda wrote:
The people making these games are out for one thing, to try to create a product that people will enjoy, spend lots of money on, and continue playing it even if they need to buy an entirely different console

I've already taken it into consideration

[ADE]

ST owns those Servers and he illegially modifies the properties of them. That's why every Temple run on that server has a Love Rappy in it and the Language Filter is turned off. THAT is hacking, which is illegal.

[Jkid]

On 2003-11-23 18:44, ADE wrote:
ST owns those Servers and he illegially modifies the properties of them. That's why every Temple run on that server has a Love Rappy in it and the Language Filter is turned off. THAT is hacking, which is illegal.



He can do that on his server but on ST servers it's illegal.

[ADE]

You can't host PSO on your own server without permission from Sega. Does Baru have Sega's permission? Also, doesn't he realize that if he wishes to maintain his own server, and allow players on ST's servers to go to his, that he is SUPPOSED to hold up all of their rules?

I think a mod should do some IP tracing and figure out where he is and inform ST so they can take action against him.

[dark_agenda]

I don't have anything against baru, it'd be nice if he/she hadn't made any modifications to the server, but someone with his/her skills helped us learn secrets that would have other wise taken a long long time to find out, like unsealing the J-sword. I don't think his hacking is ruining the game, much and he has given some back to the pso community so I think that kind of makes up the difference and places him on neutral ground