Religious After-school Programs

[Shake]

Howdy, first off this isn't any anti-christ thing, or anything meant to be descriminatory or offensive.

Recently I had an idea, and realized that I have never EVER heard of any other religious type of after-school program except for christian ones.

Discussing this with my friends, a friend of mine mentioned something about the seperation of church and state. Which led me to question the involvement other religions have on schools. Could any sort of suggestion to make another religious program have been denied?

Have any of you heard of jewish programs? Pagan? Catholic? Even buddhist? Catholic seems like it would be the next candidate after christianity...

Maybe even a multi-religious program? Then again, it seems as if some of the people wouldn't be too open minded about other religions, you all know how that goes. People follow a strict code involving their way of life, and they just have trouble discussing the fact that they may be wrong...

But, that's more of a 'people' problem, not any certain type of religious sect's problem.

Anyways, discuss. I know the community here at pso-world is vast and full of people that are very varied and native to areas all over the world. So, maybe I could get more of a global answer to this discussion.

Really, this doesn't effect a person of my non-religious nature, but I just wasn't raised that way. But, I'm curious.

[Black000Moon]

I havent heard of any program like that I think it would be ok to people that don't totally disagree with another religion...

[Blitzkommando]

seperation of church and state

That's somewhat correct. However in context of the Constitution it states that there cannot be any state run national church. The govenrnment does however have the full power to support a religion. So what you are saying is quite doable but entirely politically incorrect so in other words... It won't happen cause somebody will get all pissy over it and have it shut down. Remember, in America, minority rules.

[Allos]

On 2004-01-12 11:40, Shake wrote:
Catholic seems like it would be the next candidate after christianity...





Just to point something out, Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. You were probably referring to Protestant (the other Christianity branch) programs.

[AUTO_]

This is because you won't find to many "leaders" to host these--or demand for people to go.

Some youth groups (christian) can barely muster enough kids to go to make it "work", and the half that do go don't even like being there.

Not everyday you can knock on Mrs. Marley's door and ask her if she would lead an anti-christ group every Wednesday after school.

[Ness]

I don't think people should be allowed to practive any religion in a school enviroment.

[Kupi]

Why not, Ness? If people can't practice their religion at school (which, I assume, would entail praying in school during free time, wearing, pardon the expression, the Muslim headgear, etc.), then you're effectively enforcing another religious belief... Atheism.

[KaFKa]

On 2004-01-12 14:09, Kupi wrote:
Why not, Ness? If people can't practice their religion at school (which, I assume, would entail praying in school during free time, wearing, pardon the expression, the Muslim headgear, etc.), then you're effectively enforcing another religious belief... Atheism.


atheism is a non-religion. meaning that you're not religious. which, in theory, is what the school is suppoed to be. but its still a 'religion'

paradoxical?

its just like having an "african american" club. thats racist, but since black people (if you find that offensive, too bad) are seen as a minority (even though in many states they are a majority) they can get away with it.

oh well, life moves on, and another grain of sand goes through the proverbial hourglass of time...

[Solstis]

(even though in many states they are a majority)


And what magical state is this? Botswana? Not even in many cities is there a black majority. Alabama probably has the highest % of blacks because NOONE lives there.

I really hope that you didn't mean to say that, or you're just some poor, ignorant sap http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif.

[Edit] Spelled "highest" wrong. Ouch.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Solstis on 2004-01-12 17:43 ]</font>

[derBauer]

On 2004-01-12 13:26, Ness wrote:
I don't think people should be allowed to practive any religion in a school enviroment.



Do you mean in any school including private schools, or just public schools?

[Reiya]

im muslim and we were allowed to pray during lunch times and go out of school on fridays to the mosque.

[Ness]

On 2004-01-12 14:09, Kupi wrote:
Why not, Ness? If people can't practice their religion at school (which, I assume, would entail praying in school during free time, wearing, pardon the expression, the Muslim headgear, etc.), then you're effectively enforcing another religious belief... Atheism.



Atheism is not a religion, it's the abscence of it. I didn't say that people can show their religion, I said that religion has not place in the list of after school programs or school sponsered activites. I could care less about what people wear as long as they are willing to let everyone show their religion through clothing.

For example, our school could care less about wearing Christian shirts, but if you wear something showing another religion, you have to take it off and that's where I have problems.


Do you mean in any school including private schools, or just public schools?

It would hope that any school would remain neutral, but public schools are the only ones states have control over so I would say public.

[Kupi]

On 2004-01-13 04:36, Ness wrote:
Atheism is not a religion, it's the abscence of it.


It's a belief about God. Telling people they couldn't express their belief in God through their practices would, in effect, enforce Atheism. However, I realize thanks to the rest of your post that that wasn't what you were talking about, so.



For example, our school could care less about wearing Christian shirts, but if you wear something showing another religion, you have to take it off and that's where I have problems.


Come again? I don't understand what you mean by "showing another religion."

[Ness]

On 2004-01-13 11:54, Kupi wrote:

It's a belief about God. Telling people they couldn't express their belief in God through their practices would, in effect, enforce Atheism. However, I realize thanks to the rest of your post that that wasn't what you were talking about, so.


You are not enforcing Atheeism because you are not promoting it in anyway. You are promoting neutrality, not Atheism.




Come again? I don't understand what you mean by "showing another religion."



I should have said, if you were to wear something that represents another religion. Anyway.....

I meant that if you were to express non-Chirstian beliefs via clothing are jewelry, you would be asked to change clothes or remove whatever piece of jewelry you have on.

[Kupi]

Ah, I see now. Well, I still stand by my statement that if you were have everyone remove any relious accessory, required by the faith or not, you'd have enforced atheism because you're not allowing people to represent their faith. But this argument in spinning around in circles, so I'll leave it at that. ^_^

[Liquid_Bacon]

Remember, in America, minority rules.

I think this is true about any "western" or developed country. It totally goes against everything that democracy stands for, but in our "cry and point fingers" society, it seems like minority really does rule.

[opaopajr]

hey Ness, please oh please! tell me your school is public for what they just did is so phat lawsuit that it screams multi-millions o' $$$

if the answer is yes my personal suggestion. document thoroughly christian t-shirts being freely worn. do this for about a month or 2. convert to whatever-the-hell religion, envelop yourself in as many non-disruptive, inobtrusive, yet distinctly visible, articles of wear you can find. photo yourself, go to school, get asked to remove said stuff, ask it to be repeated in recorder or have signed slipped sending you home due to your "unallowable" wear, and then compile data. call the ACLU, notify them that you are interested in punitive damages. there ya go. easy millionaire, life of leisure from thereon.

though if it is private, then i'm sorry. been there done that. 10 years of that to be exact.

[Omni-SqwirL]

On 2004-01-12 17:42, Solstis wrote:

And what magical state is this? Botswana? Not even in many cities is there a black majority. Alabama probably has the highest % of blacks because NOONE lives there.


I live there, Birmingham Alabama that is. It does have a high percentage in certain areas, and my neighborhood is turning into the projects (in the sense of property value going way down). It's funny though, there are more rap stations than country stations here. Alabama...jeeeze.

My school enforces Atheism. It's sad because it's just a circular argument like mentioned before. I'm a Christian, but I don't enforce my religion on anybody, I just bring my Bible everyday, and if people ask questions, I answer them to the best of my ability. But for after-school activities, the school doesn't support many things at all. They shut down a lot of acedmics because sports activites were far more important...*mumbles dirty words* I liked chess club!

[Ness]

On 2004-01-15 04:56, opaopajr wrote:
hey Ness, please oh please! tell me your school is public for what they just did is so phat lawsuit that it screams multi-millions o' $$$

if the answer is yes my personal suggestion. document thoroughly christian t-shirts being freely worn. do this for about a month or 2. convert to whatever-the-hell religion, envelop yourself in as many non-disruptive, inobtrusive, yet distinctly visible, articles of wear you can find. photo yourself, go to school, get asked to remove said stuff, ask it to be repeated in recorder or have signed slipped sending you home due to your "unallowable" wear, and then compile data. call the ACLU, notify them that you are interested in punitive damages. there ya go. easy millionaire, life of leisure from thereon.

though if it is private, then i'm sorry. been there done that. 10 years of that to be exact.



My school is public, but I don't whine about things like that and I have contempt for people who try to sue everyone.

[Solstis]

I live there, Birmingham Alabama that is. It does have a high percentage in certain areas, and my neighborhood is turning into the projects (in the sense of property value going way down). It's funny though, there are more rap stations than country stations here. Alabama...jeeeze.

My school enforces Atheism. It's sad because it's just a circular argument like mentioned before. I'm a Christian, but I don't enforce my religion on anybody, I just bring my Bible everyday, and if people ask questions, I answer them to the best of my ability. But for after-school activities, the school doesn't support many things at all. They shut down a lot of acedmics because sports activites were far more important...*mumbles dirty words* I liked chess club!


<--- Feels bad now.

How dare they take away chess club! Even though I'm not in it, I respect the chess club. *Sniffle* what is the world coming to?

Sorry about the dissing Alabama too.

[Kasumi19]

This is an interesting thread. I believe that a student in a public school has the right to practice any religion they choose to. If they choose to wear specific garments or jewelry in relation to that religion they should be allowed to within reason. What I mean by this is that the attire must fall within school dress code guidelines. I know my high school did not allow shorts of skirts to be shorter than a certain length or allow students to wear spagetti strap shirts or certain types of sandals.

I that if students want to set up some type of religious group at school they should be able to, however school funds should not be used to support this activity.

I also do not think that atheism is a religion. Religions are typically a belief system that is based on faith that some supernatural being(s) is somehow responsible for what occurs in our lives. This super natural being supposedly requires some type of patronage from it's followers as well. An atheist obviously does not agree with this.

I also do not believe that religion should be taught in public schools. There are so many religions on this planet and who is say that one or a few are correct or if any are correct.

I know there will be the people that argue that evolution is taught in school so religion should be as well. My thought on that is that religion is based on faith and there is no real scientific evidence to support it. We have fossils and other various tangible pieces of evidence to support the theory of evolution.

I firmly believe that religion and state should be separate.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kasumi19 on 2004-01-16 01:10 ]</font>

[Guntz348]

On 2004-01-12 13:26, Ness wrote:
I don't think people should be allowed to practive any religion in a school enviroment.



You can choose to practice it, but a teacher or anyone in the school is not alowed to tell you to do so. If you wanna pray to what ever god you choose, no one can tell you no. They just can't force you to pray to there god.

[anwserman]

Actually, I don't see a problem with school funds, because it would be a school group with a religious twist. Just as long as the school gives funds to other similar religious groups, I see no problem.

Now, however, if the school funds a Christian religious group at school, and denies the same funds to a Jewish group, then its time for problems.

[opaopajr]

...sooo.

ness, you do know that afterwards you can afford years of therapy to deal with your self-loathing? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

opportunity knocks, i'd grab it if i were you.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2004-01-12 12:42, Allos wrote:
Just to point something out, Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. You were probably referring to Protestant (the other Christianity branch) programs.



This is incorrect. First of all, not all non-Catholic churches that consider themselves to be Christian are Protestant. There are literally hundreds of variations on the Christian religion, and a number of them can trace back their roots to Christ's ministry, without ever being involved in the Catholic church.

Furthermore, Catholic beliefs aren't really even based on the Bible. They're based on the "Divine Truth", which is determined by a council of high-ranking bishops. The Catholic church is indeed heavily influenced by the Bible, but its roots are in all ancient religions. It began as an attempt to unify beliefs ("Catholic" as a word, translates to "Universal"). This was implemented by the Roman Government under the command of Constantine, under the logic that if all beliefs were considered the same, then unity would be easier to accomplish.

Any "Christian" however, would tell you that the Bible is the final word, no matter what (regardless of how personally ignorant they may be of what it actually says, or how much they rely on their preacher or church leaders to tell them what certain passages mean).


And by the way, "Atheism" is a class of religion. An "Atheist" may belong to any individual religion that does not believe that a "theos" (or rather, a "god") exists. This is as opposed to Monotheism, which covers most forms of Christianity, as well as a few other religions. Compare also, to Polytheism. A Polytheist may be Hindu, Wiccan, Ancient Egyptian or even Ancient Greek (or even Catholic, if you ask some people). These are all wildly different beliefs, but are all classified as Polytheism.

In closing, Atheism is not the absence of religion, it's the absence of a belief in any god or similar higher being. To be absent of religion, is to be Neutral on the topic.

[Kupi]

And to tack a sticky note on Meira's post, the only way to be absent of religion is to be ignorant of its existence. If you know that there is such thing as religion, you have to make a decision on the subject, and even saying "I'm not going to make a decision" falls under agnosticism.

[Aunt_Betty]

I go to a catholic school. We go to mass on fridays.