King-sized Pal Rappy screenshots -> Item drop system discuss

[VulpesMundi]

Persistent in my efforts to find a 1975 Agito for my collection, I found myself doing some FiY runs with Amani tonight. The goal is still unachieved, but a totally different experience happened this night. For the second time, and nearly a year after the first, I suddenly found myself staring in the face of a King-sized Pal Rappy. This was a natural encounter, too. No piping involved. And now that I actually have a video capture card this time around, I figured I'd grab some decent screenshots for posterity. So for your viewing pleasure, here ya go. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/etl/pso/amani_v_pal-king_1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/etl/pso/amani_v_pal-king_2.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/etl/pso/amani_v_pal-king_3.jpg

Kinda looks like the Pal-king is sneaking up behind Amani to eat her MAG. Realizing something big is behind her, she brandishes her weapon and wheels around to face it. The Pal-king then grins sheepishly, like it wasn't going to try anything suspicious. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Only downside to this encounter was that the Pal-king dropped Meseta. That puts me at 24 Pinkal Pals (plus 28 Whitill Mils) and still no Agito. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Pinkal: Meseta x12, Flame Barrier x2, Plasma Barrier x2, Freeze Barrier x1, Rabarta lv.13 x1, Shifta lv.14 x1, Monomate x1, Dimate x1, Difluid x1, Antidote x1, Monogrinder x1

Edit: Renamed the topic, since this has become so much more than what it started out as.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2004-02-02 18:14 ]</font>

[Hrith]

he he lol
nice pics http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

and King Pal really looks like he's hungry for your Soniti, lol

you're really out of luck for Agito '75, aren't you ?

well, that's because you lucked out too many times for the lavis http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_argh.gif

I got my Agito '75 from my 4th random Mil Lily http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

btw, why don't you have any customized button ? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kefka on 2004-01-31 01:43 ]</font>

[VulpesMundi]

On 2004-01-31 01:42, Kefka wrote:
btw, why don't you have any customized button ? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif

Because I didn't want target arrows on the Rappy when I took the pics. Don't like them getting in the way. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Hrith]

ah, very clever indeed http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

but maybe you should start hunting for it from a non rare monster.

you got a Milla from a Tollaw, why not an Agito ? (same rarity)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kefka on 2004-01-31 01:52 ]</font>

[Yosho]

"That puts me at 24 Pinkal Pals"

Keep trying your almost there http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif it took me around 30ish to get mine from Pinkal http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[VioletSkye]

Nice pics http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[KingChaos]

it took me 5 pal raps but thats just good luck(not luck as in stat)

[Tsudo_Plat]

Thats awesome! I didn't think the chances of seeing one of those would ever happen! Thanks for the screenshots Vulpes.

btw, I got my Agito after 16 pal's, and heyf00l's guide says 1/21, so you seem to be overdue for your Agito! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Serves you right for getting Lavis Cannon!!

[Soukosa]

On 2004-01-31 09:38, Tsudo_Plat wrote:
btw, I got my Agito after 16 pal's, and heyf00l's guide says 1/21, so you seem to be overdue for your Agito! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

The numbers on that chart are by no means official and are most likely quite inaccurate.

[Tsudo_Plat]

On 2004-01-31 10:11, Sounomi wrote:


On 2004-01-31 09:38, Tsudo_Plat wrote:
btw, I got my Agito after 16 pal's, and heyf00l's guide says 1/21, so you seem to be overdue for your Agito! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

The numbers on that chart are by no means official and are most likely quite inaccurate.



Yeah, but hes still overdue. Anyone that can find a King-Size Pal Rappy deserves his Agito. (wish I could fight a king-size pal rappy!)

[Soukosa]

Pal Rappy #8 on the search for an Angel Harp:
http://sounomi.housoka.com/images/giant_pal_rappy.jpg

Angel Harp has the same rarity as the '75 Agito, but I don't have it yet.

[Tsudo_Plat]

Well then you deserve your Angel Harp as well... ^_^ I went through 16 Pal Rappys and never have seen a king-sized one.

[Blue-Hawk]

Still trying for that Agito? I had mine for almost a year now. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif 12 Pinkal pal's. This time, I'm on 8 and no second.... Not like I'm actively looking though.

[Hrith]

I never saw a King Pal, but I saw King Love Rappy and Malkavian was lucjy enough to see King Saint Rappy http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Primrose]

This whole thread surprises me, or rather the fact that not many people have ever seen a king-sized Pal Rappy.
I have already seen two king-sized Pal Rappies and a king-sized Love Rappy.

Anyways, it took me exactly 30 Pal Rappies to get my Agito 1975, but the very next day my data corrupted. Now i have seen 7 so far, but im not expecting to get another Agito 1975 too soon.

However VulpesMundi, i think you still can consider yourself lucky, as it took you 12 Mil Lilies to get your Psycho Wand.
But congratulations on your king-sized Pal Rappy.

[VulpesMundi]

On 2004-01-31 11:28, Primrose wrote:
However VulpesMundi, i think you still can consider yourself lucky, as it took you 12 Mil Lilies to get your Psycho Wand.

And people think I got lucky with my Lavis Cannons. It took 22 Pouily Slimes to get my first one. I wouldn't call that lucky at all. I suppose another 5 to get the second one wasn't too bad, but you have to consider that the Lavis (and Agito, for that matter) are a pretty high drop rate when compared to the Psycho Wand. My calculations put the Lavis and Agito at approximately a 1/22 average drop, which is coincidentally how many it took for my first Lavis. The Psycho Wand, on the other hand, is calculated at approximately a 1/205 average drop. I got mine in 12 Mils, so yeah that was definately lucky.

[Thepandaman]

heh, I had to take out 12 Pals in a search for...a red handgun lol. The 12 including 1 big one, however I didn't have anything to take a picture of it with. Isn't it supposed to be a 1/2 chance? so the chance of not getting it 12 times in a row is....2 to the power of 12, so that's...4096. hmmm...I'm unlucky:)

[Hrith]

On 2004-01-31 11:37, VulpesMundi wrote:
My calculations put the Lavis and Agito at approximately a 1/22 average drop. The Psycho Wand, on the other hand, is calculated at approximately a 1/205 average drop.
I got my Psycho on my first (online).
I got Iritista on my first (online, looking for God/Battle), which has same rarity as Agito/Lavis.
I got two Angel Harps out of 15 Pal Rappies, again same rarity as Agito/Lavis.
And my Agito on my 4th Mil.
and 23 Pouilly Slimes and still no Lavis.
Tilldawn went through 62 Pals and still no Agito.

Rates in percent do not belong to PSO, they are misleading and are causing more chaos than it is really helping anyone.

[VulpesMundi]

On 2004-01-31 12:33, Kefka wrote:
Rates in percent do not belong to PSO, they are misleading and are causing more chaos than it is really helping anyone.

It's not the drop rates that cause trouble, it's the people who take them too seriously or don't understand them at all. Scientifically speaking, you can have an average chance. But having that doesn't make it a sure-fire thing, especially when algorithms are involved. However, my first Lavis Cannon proved the possibility of an accurate average. My Psycho Wand and lack of an Agito thus far proved that even a high or low average can be totally offset in the cycle of chaos. It basically comes down to a simple fact: if you're going to keep looking for something that's there, eventually you're going to find it. The drop rates merely show the average odds (what's there), but by no means are the end all, be all truth. They're merely a guideline with which one can get an idea on what to expect. In the end the possibilities are practically endless, and thus the results can and will vary widely.

[Hrith]

Well, I understand, Vulpes, but you are saying yourself that this can widely vary (using a randomizer, this can vary limitlessly).

Besides, not all people know as much as you do, that's why I'd rather they were not mentioned, as I said, they may not to you, but to most people they bring confusion more than anything else http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[Soukosa]

On 2004-01-31 13:26, VulpesMundi wrote:
It's not the drop rates that cause trouble, it's the people who take them too seriously or don't understand them at all.

You also need to take into account that those rates are by no means official and could very well be quite inaccurate. Going by what you mentioned, along with things that I've noticed, I refuse to generate any rates like that myself, but I perfer to use a rating that doesn't specify an actual percentage or whatever. I know a couple of other people that are same way as well.

[Aunt_Betty]

The rappys are stronger than we think.

[Nightmarexlc]

On 2004-01-31 10:46, Sounomi wrote:
Pal Rappy #8 on the search for an Angel Harp:
http://sounomi.housoka.com/images/giant_pal_rappy.jpg

Angel Harp has the same rarity as the '75 Agito, but I don't have it yet.



ok im mad now... if you'll recall i made a post aqua vs PAL rappy... 100 fake in yellow runz, no angel harp and most of all NO EMPEROR RAPPY!!! (thats what i call king-sized palz)

[cjbelfor]

On 2004-01-31 10:11, Sounomi wrote:

The numbers on that chart are by no means official and are most likely quite inaccurate.



You never miss an opportunity to say this, do you?

Until you put your money where your mouth is, I think we would all do just fine to consider you to be full of, er, poo. The person who posted the IGN guide explained his system and how he drew his conclusions. And as VM has noted, a major problem is the inability of people to understand probability. This is in no way a fault of the chart.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: cjbelfor on 2004-02-01 13:05 ]</font>

[Tsudo_Plat]

On 2004-02-01 13:02, cjbelfor wrote:


On 2004-01-31 10:11, Sounomi wrote:

The numbers on that chart are by no means official and are most likely quite inaccurate.



You never miss an opportunity to say this, do you?

Until you put your money where your mouth is, I think we would all do just fine to consider you to be full of, er, poo. The person who posted the IGN guide explained his system and how he drew his conclusions. And as VM has noted, a major problem is the inability of people to understand probability. This is in no way a fault of the chart.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: cjbelfor on 2004-02-01 13:05 ]</font>


Yes, thats all fine and dandy. The problem is that having ONE person post a guide, is not a reliable source. So Sounomi's response was valid in every way. I say the only reliable source is the ST programmers themselves, or whoever it was that created the original drop rates.

[cjbelfor]

On 2004-02-01 13:22, Tsudo_Plat wrote:


Yes, thats all fine and dandy. The problem is that having ONE person post a guide, is not a reliable source. So Sounomi's response was valid in every way. I say the only reliable source is the ST programmers themselves, or whoever it was that created the original drop rates.



Son, I teach university logic. You fail.

[navci]

Hm. I still find the guide useful.
Not exactly in the numerical way... but like, tell me how likely a drop is say, between 1/2 and 1/2448708473534 so I know which enemy to go after.... and happily announce something drop and I am lucky because its drop rate is 1/2202.. or something. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[PatserGOUKI]

Hi,

Cool pictures Vulpes!
I saw 2 king size pals in my hunt for the real agito. I also saw 2 pal rappies in one room...
I had to see 18 pal rappies before I found the Agito.

Maybe Im wrong but, I guessed the best way to find the agito is to pipe for it. When I found it Fake in Yellow took about an hour and a half.
First one pal rappy in the row on single ones, in the second room. -> nothing.
Then in the room with the most rappies I started piping, after about 15 pipes: 2nd pal rappy, again nothing.
Then the final room, with the first row of rappies, and the one rappy besides the row. I started piping again. After an hour (boooooring and soo long, but wanted the agito so bad) the 3rd pal rappy in this quest. It finally gave me the Agito.
(total pal rappies seen with pinkal 18...)

ABOUT RANDOMIZER...
I guess the randomizer picks a drop in the quest, before u see the first pal rappy. When the randomizer says, drop at 5th, u probably wont see the 5th pal, u wont find anything...
If the randomizer says at the 12th pal it drops, you wont see it at all in that quest.
But to see 2 or max 3 pal rappies AND the randomizer says in 3 times u do the quest, drop ain between first and 3rd, u can get the drop earlier!

I hope u see what i mean.
Anyway good luck.

PatserGOUKI

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-01 15:47, cjbelfor wrote:
Son, I teach university logic. You fail.
Son, I know Sounomi's charts and how they were made, you fail.

[kingmurp]

Vulpes knows better than to hunt an item from a Tollaw. Despite the luck that has been bestowed upon him. The drop rates are merely ODDS. Ever gamble. Go ahead try it sometime. Pick a drop rate, buy that many lottery tickets. I can tell most of you in advance, you'll be lucky if you break even or even if you win.

[heyf00L]

I feel the need to defend my chart now.

Well according to my information, rare drops are calculated something like this.

When you kill an enemy (and it will drop something (http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=listarticles&secid=57)) a random 32 bit number is generated. Each rare drop in the game has a byte asigned to it that means its rarity. The byte is put through a formula to get a number. If the random number that was generated is less than the number that came from the drop-rate byte, then the rare drops.

The drop-rate byte for a lot of ultimate rare enemies is F9 which in binary is 11111001. Now take that number in binary and divide it between the 5th and 6th digits to get 2 new numbers: 11111 (which is 31) and 001 (which is 1) and run it through this formula.
2^((first 5 digits) - 3) * ((last 3 digits) + 7)
which is
2^(31 - 3) * (1 + 7)
2^(28) * (8)
268,435,456 * 8
2,147,483,648 is our number.

So, if the random 32 bit number (which means between 0 and 4,294,967,296) is lower than 2,147,483,648 the rare drops. So how do we get a probability? That'd be 2,147,483,648 / 4,294,967,296 which gives us .5 or 50% or 1 / 2.

I implemented this simple little formula into a spiffy little calculator type thing
here (http://trueconsoles.homestead.com/files/misc.html). All you have to do is pick an enemy, supply the drop-rate byte, and hit multiply.

I hope this helps some of you know where exactly these drop rates came from. No, I didn't figure out the formulas myself; I got most of my info from >.< hacker sites. The drop rates had been charted before I made my chart, but it was in percentages (who wants to read 0.000000892437579%? can you tell me what that means off the top of your head?) and didn't factor in drop-anything rates which obviously affect rare drops. All I did was put it all together and I chose to use ratios instead of percents because it's much easier to understand at a glance.

Sounomi's right, I have no guarantee that these averages are right, but they seem accurate to me and no one has anything better. People like to complain about them, but like I said, no one has anything better.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: heyf00L on 2004-02-02 14:36 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: heyf00L on 2004-02-02 14:39 ]</font>

[VulpesMundi]

I don't have the ability to decompile and/or reverse engineer PSO, so I have a few questions about what you just said. I'm not trying to belittle your work. I'm merely trying to understand it. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



The drop-rate byte for a lot of ultimate rare enemies is F9 which in binary is 11111001.

If that's the binary for a rare enemy 1/2 drop, what are all the other enemy binaries?



So, if the random 32 bit number (which means between 0 and 4,294,967,296) is lower than 2,147,483,648 the rare drops.

How is the random 32 bit number calculated? Where does the 4,294,967,296 come from?



The drop rates had been charted before I made my chart, but it was in percentages (who wants to read 0.000000892437579%? can you tell me what that means off the top of your head?) and didn't factor in drop-anything rates which obviously affect rare drops.

I've never seen any real proof that drop-anything rates effect rare drops. I don't even see that calculated in your equation. Granted rare enemies have a 100% drop-anything rate, so it's not needed in that case. Can you explain in detail why you believe drop-anything rates effect rare drops?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2004-02-02 15:02 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

On 2004-02-02 15:00, VulpesMundi wrote:
Can you explain in detail why you believe drop-anything rates effect rare drops?

The game won't bother to determine if an enemy drops a rare or not unless the enemy drops something itself. The probablilty of an enemy dropping an item would in turn affect the probability of a rare showing up. At least, that's how I see things.

[ilr2000]

On 2004-02-02 06:46, PatserGOUKI wrote:
Hi,

Maybe Im wrong but, I guessed the best way to find the agito is to pipe for it. When I found it Fake in Yellow took about an hour and a half.
First one pal rappy in the row on single ones, in the second room. -> nothing.
Then in the room with the most rappies I started piping, after about 15 pipes: 2nd pal rappy, again nothing.
Then the final room, with the first row of rappies, and the one rappy besides the row. I started piping again. After an hour (boooooring and soo long, but wanted the agito so bad) the 3rd pal rappy in this quest. It finally gave me the Agito.
(total pal rappies seen with pinkal 18...)



This is something I've noticed as well. When you start piping... if it's a monster where a lot show up in one room (pals, mils), the first rare monster will come reletively quick. However the second rare monster in the same game can take hours on end, even though you've found another room with the same number of monsters being piped. And just like you said, if you ARE patient enough to do multiple pipes in the same game, chances of the item being dropped seems like it has increased.

[SorceryMaster]

hey i got my Red Handgun from a fat pal rappy also! it was my third 1 but of course the % were 0/0/0/0
also i got a lkavis and tried for a agito. 12 pals and no luck:(, but the lavis cannon i got after 10:)
gl on ur search

[VulpesMundi]

On 2004-02-02 15:05, Sounomi wrote:
The game won't bother to determine if an enemy drops a rare or not unless the enemy drops something itself. The probablilty of an enemy dropping an item would in turn affect the probability of a rare showing up. At least, that's how I see things.

The problem is I've never seen undeniable proof of that. As far as I know, nobody has ever completely deciphered the entire drop system in PSO. The rare drop could be the first calculation, or it could be the last calculation. There's many different possibilities about how the game could go about deciding what item to drop.

Rare, anything, specific item.
Anything, rare, specific item.
Rare, anything, item type, specific item.
Anything, rare, item type, specific item.

Those are just a couple generic possibilities. My question is, can anybody prove how it works and in what order? I'd love to know for sure, to end the uncertainty.

[Hrith]

*kills SorceryMaster*


People like to complain about them, but like I said, no one has anything better
That is a very good argument, and that is why I do not like to bash your work even though I do not believe in its accuracy.

I'm also very interested in the answer to VulpesMundi's first two questions.
And that one : who made that formula you used, and how do we know it is appropriate to use it ?

[Soukosa]

On 2004-02-02 15:20, VulpesMundi wrote:
The problem is I've never seen undeniable proof of that. As far as I know, nobody has ever completely deciphered the entire drop system in PSO. The rare drop could be the first calculation, or it could be the last calculation. There's many different possibilities about how the game could go about deciding what item to drop.

Rare, anything, specific item.
Anything, rare, specific item.
Rare, anything, item type, specific item.
Anything, rare, item type, specific item.

Those are just a couple generic possibilities. My question is, can anybody prove how it works and in what order? I'd love to know for sure, to end the uncertainty.

From documenation that I read, the rare drop is taken into account before any of the random items that can show up do. If the rare drop was determined ahead of time, why not whether an enemy drops something or not? I know for a fact that the whether an enemy drops something or not is determined when the enemy is killed, since any lag that would occur with the team leader's machine would cause a lag in the drop since that's the machine that determines it. Baru once talked about how rare enemies are determined ahead of time by the server and then sent to every player. If the rare drops were that way, wouldn't she have said something about that too, since she has written a PSO server before. It would make sense to me that the game decides whether the enemy drops anything or not, followed by whether it drops the rare, then whether or not it drops its main type of drop and so forth.

[VulpesMundi]

You're still assuming, though, and don't know for sure. I'm asking for actual clarification, here, not opinions. If Baru truly knew I think she'd say so herself. Rare enemy appearances and item drops aren't the same thing.

[Soukosa]

Well, there was something I forgot to mention in the last post. You can easily see if the drop anything rate of an enemy would have an influence on the rare drop's probability by looking at two or more enemies with different drop anything rates but the rare they drop has the same base rarity. All the rare enemies on Normal through V. Hard (with the exception of the Normal Bluefull Temple Hildeblue) have rare drops that have the same base rarity as the rare drops that Mericarol, Gibbles, and Gi Gue have on Normal. The rare enemies have a 100% drop anything rare while the latter three only have an 80% drop rate. If the drop anything rate does influence the dropping of the rares, then the rare enemies would drop their rares more often. Or if you want some variation in the drop rates, the rare drop for Gigoboomas on Normal for all IDs but Redria have the same base rarity as a Forest Hildebear does. The Gigobooma has only a 35% drop anything rate while the Hildebear has an 80% rate. So, if you were to compare those, then surely you would be able to see if the drop anything rate has any influence.

[VulpesMundi]

I have a counter example to that. In the Ultimate Ruins, the Merlan and Del-D both have a 35% drop-anything rate. Considering only Purplenum, which is my highest level char at 175, I've only found 1 Spread Needle from a Merlan. Conversely, still considering only Purplenum, I've found about 5 or 6 Red Mechguns from Del-Ds. Same item rarity and the enemies have a pretty similar appearance rate (I believe Merlans are generally the more common of the two, with a few quests being the exception), but the results are completely different.

Here's another example, using two enemies with completely different drop rates and appearance rates. Let's take Ultimate Cave Vulmer (30% drop-anything) and Crimson Assassin (55% drop-anything). Considering only Skyly, my second-highest char at 160, I've found at least 2-dozen Chain Sawds from Vulmers. I haven't found a single Red Dagger from a Crimson Assassin. Granted there are far fewer Assassins than there are Vulmers, you have to consider that the difference in the drop rates is almost double. Combining the estimated drop rate and drop-anything rate, you'd wind up with roughly 1/903 for the Chain Sawd and roughly 1/574 for the Red Dagger. And yet I haven't found a single Red Dagger. And believe me when I tell you my Skyly char spends the majority of her time in the Cave.

It's obviously not because of the drop-anything rates. It's because of dumb luck (or the lack thereof). It just merely proves that, as I similarly stated in an earlier post, the chaos of the system merely causes widely varying results. It's impossible to judge on a small scale, and virtually impossible to test on a large scale. This is why there needs to be solid proof, not just assessments and educated guesses. Granted the educated guesses seem the more likely case, I just want to know for sure. Doesn't everybody?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2004-02-02 17:46 ]</font>

[Hrith]

What I do not understand about your logic, VulpesMundi, and although your examples are clear, is how can something (here, a rare) be part of the nothing part of the drop-anything rate ?
It just seems so very unlikely to me that the rare would be excluded from the drop-anything rate.
I understand your want for solid proof, though.

[VulpesMundi]

On 2004-02-02 17:43, Kefka wrote:
What I do not understand about your logic, VulpesMundi, and although your examples are clear, is how can something (here, a rare) be part of the nothing part of the drop-anything rate ?
It just seems so very unlikely to me that the rare would be excluded from the drop-anything rate.
I understand your want for solid proof, though.

I have a plausible response to that, albeit a weird one. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Pick an ice cream flavor. Any flavor will do. Got it? Okay. You've decided you want some ice cream. Now you just need to go to the store and buy it. So you're there in the freezer section, but oh shoot. They're out of the flavor you wanted. Guess you'll have to pick from something else or nothing at all.

Did that make sense?

It's just a theory, as I have no more proof than any of the other drop theories. But what if the system decided whether or not to drop the rare first? If it dropped the rare, it would negate the rest of the equation. If it didn't drop the rare, it would move on to the drop-anything calculation. If that failed, nothing drops. If it succeeds, it goes on to the next step which is either selecting the category and then picking the specific item, or just directly picking a specific item. What makes this any less plausible than any other drop theory? That's why I want to see the proof. There's too many possibilities that cloud an already chaotic system.

The biggest point is that rare items are not handled the same as common items. There's one specific drop tied to each enemy. But the system gets even more complicated when you consider rare drops from boxes. There are anywhere from 2 to at least 8 rare drops from any given box. How do you fit that into any of the drop theory calculations? My guess is that they simply have a priority, and go through each one individually. If one of them is selected to drop, the equation ends. But that doesn't really help us figure out exactly how and when rare items are calculated to drop.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2004-02-02 18:05 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

Well, while your luck with Spread Needles and Red Mechs shows that dumb luck does play a big role in a rare dropping, something like those could vary a lot more than something like what a Hildebear drops on Normal. I just did 3 Lost Heat Sword runs on Normal with my Purplenum. On Normal, a Hildebear has a rare drop of a Trimate and a Gigobooma has a rare drop of a Sol Atomizer. The two drops have exactly the same base rarity of about 50% (something I determined long before these one drop rates or the means of figuring them out ever came to me).

The results came out to:
Gigobooma: 42/174
Hildebear: 16/36

Rares that are this common aren't going to vary nearly as much when dumb luck takes its toll. So if the drop anything rate wasn't figured into the equation before the rare drop was determined, then those figures would be much closer together than what they are. If this doesn't show that drop anything rates affect the rare drop's rarity, then there's nothing more I can bring up to try to convince you otherwise.

[heyf00L]

The drop-rate byte for a lot of ultimate rare enemies is F9 which in binary is 11111001.

If that's the binary for a rare enemy 1/2 drop, what are all the other enemy binaries?
I have the commonly used ultimate ones [ult=http://trueconsoles.homestead.com/files/misc.html]here[/url] below the calculator. It's not the law, tho, there are exceptions. To change it from hex to binary just use the Windows calculator.




So, if the random 32 bit number (which means between 0 and 4,294,967,296) is lower than 2,147,483,648 the rare drops.

How is the random 32 bit number calculated? Where does the 4,294,967,296 come from?
Well, very few machines can calculate a truly random number and they can't do it without the aid of some help (I know some use lava lamps). Since PSO obviously doesn't have this it just uses a very complex algorith to get a number. Usually the time or temperature of the motherboard is used as the root of the equasion.
2^32 is 4,294,967,296. Actually, the number would range from 0 to 4,294,967,295 (I made a mistake up in my first post); but that's 4,294,967,296 different values. Similarly a byte is an 8 bit number. 2^8 is 256. A byte goes from 0 - 255.




The drop rates had been charted before I made my chart, but it was in percentages (who wants to read 0.000000892437579%? can you tell me what that means off the top of your head?) and didn't factor in drop-anything rates which obviously affect rare drops.

I've never seen any real proof that drop-anything rates effect rare drops. I don't even see that calculated in your equation. Granted rare enemies have a 100% drop-anything rate, so it's not needed in that case. Can you explain in detail why you believe drop-anything rates effect rare drops?
Just by playing the game you see proof. Melqueeks are known as stingy rare droppers because their drop anything rate is 15%. The minibosses, Dark Bringers, Delbiters, and Hildelts all have drop anything rates over 80% and drop items with the same rare drop rate much more often.
The drop anything rate is not part of the formula I posted, you'll have to factor it in yourself. However, my calculator will factor in drop anything rates.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: heyf00L on 2004-02-02 21:31 ]</font>

[VulpesMundi]

On 2004-02-02 18:31, Sounomi wrote:
Rares that are this common aren't going to vary nearly as much when dumb luck takes its toll. So if the drop anything rate wasn't figured into the equation before the rare drop was determined, then those figures would be much closer together than what they are.

That definately makes more sense. I was so busy being distracted by other things that I didn't even think to try that example. It does indeed seem to indicate that the drop-anything rates are calculated before the rare drops. I still wish someone could completely decipher the system and put all arguments to rest, but for now I can at least give it the benefit of the doubt.

Drop-anything rate -> Rare drop rate -> ?

Assuming it's correct, what do you think goes next? We know that every enemy drops tools (green boxes - this category includes Photon Drops), Meseta, and from only one of the following basic sets: weapons, armor, shields, or units. For example: in the Ultimate Ruins Arlan/Merlan/Claw/Bulk drop weapons, Del-D/Delsaber/Belra drop armor, Gunners drop shields, and Bringer/Sorceror/Bulclaw drop units. Does it immediately pick a specific drop or does it choose one of those categories first and then choose a specific drop?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2004-02-02 21:32 ]</font>

[heyf00L]

I saw a "guide" to reading itempt.gsl (which handles all non-rare drops I believe), but it was in babelfish Japanese to English and trying to understand it was more than I cared to do. It was incredibly confusing, but it was pretty cool; it even had the stuff on how it calculates weapons %s.

[Soukosa]

The way I understand things (going by what I could make out of a Japanese PSO PC hacking site), it works like this:

1. It's decided as to whether the enemy drops something or not.
2. It's decided as to whether the enemy drops its rare or not.

If it doesn't drop its rare, it goes into something I'm still working on trying to figure out. Like you mentioned, enemies have a main type of drop that they'll usually drop. If it doesn't drop that type of item, it'll then go down the hierarchy of types. The hierarchy is like this:
Weapon
Armor
Shield
Unit
Tool Item
Meseta
An enemy can never drop a type of item that's higher on the hierarchy than it's main drop. For example, Rappies on Ult drop shields, so they can never drop a normal weapon or armor.

I've made a chart of all the main drops from every thing and put it up on my site. You can see it here (http://www.housoka.com/pso/enemy/droptypes.php). I still need to check over it a bit, so it might have some errors, but I doubt it since I wrote a program to generate data that I use to make that chart.

I'm still not sure as to what the probability of the enemy dropping its main type of rare is yet, but I have a feeling its around 50% after looking at my recordings of killing Hard Gibbles over 60 times trying to get a rare from the stupid thing (never got the rare and since this was before the Tower quests, I wasn't too pleased). My records for what I've gotten from Purplenum Mils also shows a roughly 50% rate.




On 2004-02-02 21:40, heyf00L wrote:
I saw a "guide" to reading itempt.gsl (which handles all non-rare drops I believe), but it was in babelfish Japanese to English and trying to understand it was more than I cared to do. It was incredibly confusing, but it was pretty cool; it even had the stuff on how it calculates weapons %s.

I've seen a site that has stuff like that too. Maybe it's the same site that you've seen. I've some how managed to make sense of just about all of it and I'm working on getting up charts of everything.

[drizzle]

Drop rates appear to be different in some quests. Has anyone been able to extract this data from quest scripts? Or challenge mode?

[heyf00L]

Where do Photon Drops fit in? Without knowing anything I'd guess they come after the rare drop.
Drop Anything > Drop Rare > Drop PD > Drop other stuff


Sounomi, how come you have the boss drop anything rates as 95%, 90%, 85%, 80% (from normal to ult). I thought they were all 100%. Well, it says 100 in itempt, but obviously that's not right because everyone knows that bosses will sometimes not drop anything.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: heyf00L on 2004-02-03 09:15 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

Photon Drops are a tool item. I can confirm this since I've gotten PDs from fixed boss boxes that drop tool items quite a few times before. I think I've found a setting that controls their frequency, but I'm not sure.

[InCognito]

Too bad knowing all this stuff doesn't make it happen any more often http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-03 09:10, InCognito wrote:
Too bad knowing all this stuff doesn't make it happen any more often http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif
Indeed http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif


Actually the boss drop-anything rate is the only thing where Sou and I disagree. I'd say it is more like 70% at most.

[heyf00L]

No, I'd say for ultimate 80% is about right. I had it set to 80% on my chart for a long time, but I changed it back to 100% because it was just speculation and not based on fact.

[Soukosa]

I've been working on trying to get a rough idea of the boss drop rates as I've been playing the game lately. So far, Silly has dropped something 11 out of 16 times, but its also been rather stingy compared to other times. Then Volly has been better with dropping something 4 out of 5 times. I do know that the drop rates go down as the difficulty rises, not just from my own experience but from talking to others as well.

[Zarana]

If you want a true test, Vulpes, try this. Use the Red Handgun Method. You seem to have all the IDs, so try this out.

Kill a couple thousand Purplenum El Rappies.

Do the same with Whitill Ob Lillies, Greennill Tollaws and Yellowboze Bartles.

In the end, despite an equal base rarity for all of them, you will always, and I mean ALWAYS, have more Red Handguns from the Rappies. And not just a menial difference either, I mean more than twice as many. You can try this from now until the end of time, and the results will never differ. This may take a while, but it's the best way to prove a point. The Rappy 100% drop rate does (and I'm not just speculating) give you a substantial increase in total rare drops.

Sounomi and f00L are absolutely right. It's determined first if the enemy drops anything at all, then the rare item.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zarana on 2004-02-03 10:02 ]</font>

[InCognito]

How could anyone have been in dispute over this? It's like not noticing gravity.

[VulpesMundi]

Rappies aren't a very good example, actually. Either you have tons of only them in FiY, or few of them anywhere else. I've done literally hundreds of Purple FiY and have at least two-dozen Red Handguns to show for it (I was hunting one with hit, but never did find one). The fact that it's all Rappies means that they're more likely to drop since that's the only rare you have a chance to find. Playing anything other than FiY, I've only ever found one Red Handgun from a Rappy. I've actually found more Red Handguns from Greennill Tollaws playing Lost Heat Sword. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But you're preaching to the choir. Sounomi already gave a good example that lends to the point that the drop-anything rate is calculated first. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



On 2004-02-03 10:01, InCognito wrote:
How could anyone have been in dispute over this? It's like not noticing gravity.

Because it's a video game with complex algorithms that nobody has undeniable proof of. Only examples and educated guesses. Remember, people in ages past thought the Sun rotated around the Earth and that the world was flat before they were proven wrong. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2004-02-03 10:20 ]</font>

[heyf00L]

Gravi-what? *looks up in dictionary* Oh, so I'm supposed to be pulled toward the center of the Earth at all times? I never knew that. *falls* Well, I guess this means no more hovering and flying.

Well the boss thingy has me confused, but I guess I'll go with Sounomi's numbers because she r teh P50 g3nu5.

And it's not like knowing the numbers make things drop more often anyway ;p. For bosses the only thing you really need to know is if it's a hard drop or an easy drop (like Skyly and Redria Barba Ray).

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-03 10:09, VulpesMundi wrote:
Rappies aren't a very good example, actually. Either you have tons of only them in FiY, or few of them anywhere else. I've done literally hundreds of Purple FiY and have at least two-dozen Red Handguns to show for it (I was hunting one with hit, but never did find one). The fact that it's all Rappies means that they're more likely to drop since that's the only rare you have a chance to find. Playing anything other than FiY, I've only ever found one Red Handgun from a Rappy. I've actually found more Red Handguns from Greennill Tollaws playing Lost Heat Sword. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
I think Zarana was asking you to keep count of the numbers of each enemy slain, not runs, so you could have come up with, let's say :
Greennill Tollaws : 30/2000
Yellowboze Bartles : 50/2000
Whitill Cave Ob Lilies : 10/2000
Purplenum Forest El Rappies : 70/2000

something like that, of course my numbers are only examples, and are wrong (not to you Vulpes, I know you figured that http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif )

[VulpesMundi]

That's what Sounomi already did with her example of Normal Gigoboomas versus Hildebears. It was simple and made perfect sense. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[heyf00L]

On 2004-02-03 10:09, VulpesMundi wrote:
Rappies aren't a very good example, actually. Either you have tons of only them in FiY, or few of them anywhere else. I've done literally hundreds of Purple FiY and have at least two-dozen Red Handguns to show for it (I was hunting one with hit, but never did find one). The fact that it's all Rappies means that they're more likely to drop since that's the only rare you have a chance to find. Playing anything other than FiY, I've only ever found one Red Handgun from a Rappy. I've actually found more Red Handguns from Greennill Tollaws playing Lost Heat Sword. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But you're preaching to the choir. Sounomi already gave a good example that lends to the point that the drop-anything rate is calculated first. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



On 2004-02-03 10:01, InCognito wrote:
How could anyone have been in dispute over this? It's like not noticing gravity.

Because it's a video game with complex algorithms that nobody has undeniable proof of. Only examples and educated guesses. Remember, people in ages past thought the Sun rotated around the Earth and that the world was flat before they were proven wrong. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2004-02-03 10:20 ]</font>
Celly means kill a set number of each one. Kill 1000 rappies, then 1000 Bartles....and so on.

[VulpesMundi]

That's what Sounomi already did with her example of Normal Gigoboomas versus Hildebears. It was simple and made perfect sense. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif (Is there an echo in here?) But yeah, I get that now.



On 2004-02-03 10:10, heyf00L wrote:
Well the boss thingy has me confused, but I guess I'll go with Sounomi's numbers because she r teh P50 g3nu5.

And it's not like knowing the numbers make things drop more often anyway ;p. For bosses the only thing you really need to know is if it's a hard drop or an easy drop (like Skyly and Redria Barba Ray).

I've always wondered about that, myself. I estimated that Ultimate bosses had closer to a 60% drop-anything rate. That's just merely my experience, and isn't necessarily accurate. That's part of the problem. I think we all need to knock heads and discuss this a little more.

This is directed more towards Sounomi's drop list. I'm curious about the three Tower specific enemies. I want to know if those drop-anything rates were pulled from the game or are estimates. I previously couldn't find anyone with listings for them, so I estimated my own. Oddly enough, my calculations are really close to those. Just 5% lower on each of them. I just want to make sure I have accurate drop rates for these three enemies, as well as the bosses.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2004-02-03 10:40 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

All of the non-boss drop rates were taken straight out of the ItemPT file by a program I made.

[VulpesMundi]

So the Del Lily is 40%, Ill Gill is 35%, and Epsilon is 30%? Good. Pretty cool that I managed to estimate so close. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[heyf00L]

On 2004-02-03 10:38, VulpesMundi wrote:
That's what Sounomi already did with her example of Normal Gigoboomas versus Hildebears. It was simple and made perfect sense. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif (Is there an echo in here?) But yeah, I get that now.
Yar, I hit reply without reading replies.

I've always wondered about that, myself. I estimated that Ultimate bosses had closer to a 60% drop-anything rate. That's just merely my experience, and isn't necessarily accurate. That's part of the problem. I think we all need to knock heads and discuss this a little more.Well I haven't counted, maybe I should start doing that, but saying 1/5 don't drop an item seems right to me.


This is directed more towards Sounomi's drop list. I'm curious about the three Tower specific enemies. I want to know if those drop-anything rates were pulled from the game or are estimates. I previously couldn't find anyone with listings for them, so I estimated my own. Oddly enough, my calculations are really close to those. Just 5% lower on each of them. I just want to make sure I have accurate drop rates for these three enemies, as well as the bosses.That'd be from the game. And I saw a JP site with the tower enemy drop-anything rates some time ago. I also remember it had all the bosses at 100%.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: heyf00L on 2004-02-03 10:50 ]</font>

[heyf00L]

I have a question. Why isn't Epsilon a boss? Why is he just a regular enemy in a regular room with regular drop rates? Was ST lazy or something? He's a lame enemy too, only able to kill with cheap shots and amazingly easy to beat once you're inside his ring.
I've gotten a Final Impact and a Club of Zword off him, too. :/

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-03 11:31, heyf00L wrote:
I have a question. Why isn't Epsilon a boss? Why is he just a regular enemy in a regular room with regular drop rates? Was ST lazy or something? He's a lame enemy too, only able to kill with cheap shots and amazingly easy to beat once you're inside his ring.
My guess was that he is a mini-boss, like other tower monsters.


I've gotten a Final Impact off him, too. :/
Viridia r0x http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Rainbowlemon]

Is it seriously that rare to find an Agito? That's got me amazingly excited! I made a pinkal cahracter just today, and finally got to ultimate and started FiY piping.

I found my first pal after about 5 mins, but that didn't give me anything. However, i'd killed all the Rappies, so I restarted the quest. On the very first room, I found another pal just naturally, without piping, and it gave me an Agito!

I converted it to an Orati-Agito though...Was that the right thing to do? And why oh why did they make it so you can't grind it! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Hrith]

Yes, if you plan ti use it, it is better to turn it in Orotiagito.
It cannot be grinded because it already has 800 ATP (variance excluded, otherwise it's 775 average).
Grinds themselves do not mean anything, unless you like grinding weapons...
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=694&sortby=class, that is just an example.

[GospelEXE33]

Whoa nice pics!

How did you make them that large and clear? When I enlarge them they'renot too good.

And how did you take that many pics? Multiple memory cards?

[Blitzkommando]

On 2004-02-03 15:16, GospelEXE33 wrote:
Whoa nice pics!

How did you make them that large and clear? When I enlarge them they'renot too good.

And how did you take that many pics? Multiple memory cards?


Video capture card at 640*480 resolution. I use the same.

[VulpesMundi]

On 2004-02-03 15:20, BLITZKOMMANDO wrote:
Video capture card at 640*480 resolution. I use the same.

Yeah. Only problem is that 640x480 isn't the true resolution the game outputs, it's 720x480. Plus my video card isn't compatible with D-Scaler, so I can only grab one of the two interlaced frames. The final image is horizontally resized and vertically missing half the data from the second interlaced frame that I can't grab. The only reason my images look so clean is because I sharpen them with Photoshop.

Also, as a point of reference, I'm now up to 32 Pinkal Pals and 28 Whitill Mils and I still haven't received an Agito. The average drop is roughly 1/22, so in 6 more rare enemies (66) I'll be at 3 times the average. This item really hates me... Makes me wonder if I should even bother looking for a Syncesta from Oran Hildetorrs. X.x

[navci]

Also, as a point of reference, I'm now up to 32 Pinkal Pals and 28 Whitill Mils and I still haven't received an Agito. The average drop is roughly 1/22, so in 6 more rare enemies (66) I'll be at 3 times the average. This item really hates me... Makes me wonder if I should even bother looking for a Syncesta from Oran Hildetorrs. X.x


Judgeing from the kinda odd luck you have. Maybe you can't get the easy items easy, but the more difficult items like a breeze? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Hrith]

*thinks that it may happen to me, 60 Pouilly Slimes and no Lavis Cannon*
...
...
...
...
*commits suicide* (or hunt for it in Skyly EN4)

[Skorpius]

how about:
instead of obsessing over data and drop rates, you just play the game?

[Hrith]

By checking my profile, Sounomi or VulpesMundi's signatures, you will notice that we do both.

And I met heyf00l once online, his RAcast is Lv 170ish, he was apparently afk http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif I dropped him my card, dunno if he got it.

[heyf00L]

On 2004-02-03 17:02, Skorpius wrote:
how about:
instead of obsessing over data and drop rates, you just play the game?How about I'm stuck at work for 4 hours a day sitting infront of a computer with a daily work load that takes maybe 30 minutes. Want me to get on your case because you like playing pointless videogames? At least understanding computers and programming can get you a job (which is how I got my job).
And if you want to see how much I play you can check my profile.

[Cheep]

On the one quest with Nol on cheep(pinkal), don't remember the name( journalist something?), I saw a giant pal rappy. It was my first pal rappy and one of the first rare monsters I saw. I was so excited because it was like twice my size. I left Nol to fight the other rappy and she almost died... Anyway I must have stood for 5 minutes until it ran. It dropped... a difluid... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_cry.gif I haven't done that quest again on her or on my forse( also pinkal). I haven't seen another pal either, but I have seen a slew of other rare monsters. Later I found out that he was my evil uncle Fred http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/eviltongue.gif ( I was raised by rap rappies).

[Soukosa]

On 2004-02-03 17:02, Skorpius wrote:
how about:
instead of obsessing over data and drop rates, you just play the game?

I don't think we would really care about these things as much as we do if we didn't play the game alot. At least that's the case with me.

[Deus-Irae]

auto-refresh: F.U. >:(



On 2004-02-03 17:02, Skorpius wrote:
how about:
instead of obsessing over data and drop rates, you just play the game?

how about leaving the topic to those that are interested in the subject. if you think these people dont play excessively, you obviously arent paying attention. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif




On 2004-02-03 19:35, heyf00L wrote:How about I'm stuck at work for 4 hours a day sitting infront of a computer with a daily work load that takes maybe 30 minutes.

a whole 4 hours a day?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif
life is cruel!


...6 Redria Cave MILS, no demo comet. any time now...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Deus-Irae on 2004-02-04 01:41 ]</font>

[heyf00L]

a whole 4 hours a day?!
life is cruel!I'm not complaining about working part-time. I love my job. I'm just saying I usually have a lot of free time that I have to spend infront of a computer. I'd probably play PSO if I could. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Deus-Irae]

yeah i was just being jerky! dont mind me. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif




On 2004-02-03 09:07, Sounomi wrote:
Photon Drops are a tool item. I can confirm this since I've gotten PDs from fixed boss boxes that drop tool items quite a few times before. I think I've found a setting that controls their frequency, but I'm not sure.

i was thinking about this today and about something Fox said a few weeks back about certain junky items in Red Boxes not being real "rare" items.

PD may be classified as a "tool" but there has to be a different rate at which it drops compaired to normal tool items. Same with Mats.

obviously your not getting a compairable amount of PD and Mats as you are say Mates or Fluids. furthermore Luck and HP mats are much rarer than Def, Mind and Pow mats.

..this is all sounding terribly obvious as im typing it out...but ill post it anyways...

it just seemed interesting to me that there are levels of rarity within each class of item.

ill shut up. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Soukosa]

On 2004-02-11 01:59, Deus-Irae wrote:
PD may be classified as a "tool" but there has to be a different rate at which it drops compaired to normal tool items. Same with Mats.

All tool items have their own individual drop rates. Tech disks are even more broken down to individual rates for each tech.



obviously your not getting a compairable amount of PD and Mats as you are say Mates or Fluids. furthermore Luck and HP mats are much rarer than Def, Mind and Pow mats.

All the findable mats but Luck have the same drop rate.

I'll get something up, eventually, that shows the individual drop rates of all the tool items.

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-11 09:28, Sounomi wrote:
All the findable mats but Luck have the same drop rate.
http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif
If you need HP mats, play with me in Viridia, I cannot use them, and keep finding so many =/

[Soukosa]

On 2004-02-11 09:33, Kef wrote:
http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif
If you need HP mats, play with me in Viridia, I cannot use them, and keep finding so many =/

Each ID has the same chances of getting a said mat. However, you can only get certains mats in certain areas. I think Luck can be found anywhere, though.

[RAY_GUNN]

in that dudes drop probablity list it says that viridia has a 1 / 190,650 chance of getting a heaven punisher from a sinow red, yet a whitill has a 1 / 174,763 chance of getting one from a sinow blue, sinow blues are about 2.5 times more common than sinow reds (estimation), so whitill has a higher chance of getting one from a more common enemy, no offence to the list, it's a pretty good source of info, but this difference seems either wrong or wholly unfair.

[Hrith]

http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=listarticles&secid=53

I still find hella HP mats in Viridia, Skyly seems more oriented towards Power and Mind, Whitill towards Power and Luck, Redria is even.

That's my experience, and one hell of an experience that is, especially Viridia.

[Soukosa]

Well, I'm going by what the data files state. All the mats seem to be fairly evenly spread out for me on all of my IDs.

[heyf00L]

On 2004-02-11 10:53, RAY_GUNN wrote:
in that dudes drop probablity list it says that viridia has a 1 / 190,650 chance of getting a heaven punisher from a sinow red, yet a whitill has a 1 / 174,763 chance of getting one from a sinow blue, sinow blues are about 2.5 times more common than sinow reds (estimation), so whitill has a higher chance of getting one from a more common enemy, no offence to the list, it's a pretty good source of info, but this difference seems either wrong or wholly unfair.
The chart doesn't figure in how many enemies are in a run (runs and quests vary too much). Think of it this way: every time you kill a Sinow Red you have a 1 out of 174,763 chance that a Heaven Punisher will drop.

[navci]

That's my experience, and one hell of an experience that is, especially Viridia.


My theory is: the game drops what you do not need. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Thepandaman]

The chart doesn't figure in how many enemies are in a run (runs and quests vary too much). Think of it this way: every time you kill a Sinow Red you have a 1 out of 174,763 chance that a Heaven Punisher will drop.
I think that would make a pretty useful guide, having the approx chance of finding something per run of a level, though I suppose it doesn't take long to figure out that there's only a handful of some enemies.

[Aceizace]

Ahh! My brain hurts!!!! How old are you computer-programmers? I'm 15, 16 at the end of april, and while i understand what you're saying, i wouldn't be able to work anything like that out. And i want to be able to! It's annoying, i'm going to take computing at A-level, and probably computer science at uni, but it seems to me that they don't do anything like that, not at A-level anyway. Where and when did you guys learn it? If only i knew where i could get a personal tutor from, if anyone fancies flying over to england once a week for me i'd love them forever http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

Back to topic, i'm really supprised at your pinkal pal rap results. From hard-vhard every rare enemy dropped they're rare item first time, then they stopped after that if i happened to find another. It took me 3 pal rappies for my agito i think, suppose i'm lucky eh? I was annoyed that it took that long, i can't imagine how you guys must be feeling about it, lol.

Oh, and onto the other topic of this... topic, can't anyone look at the programming of the game to work these problems out? Or am i thinking to simpily? lol.

[Hrith]

read the rules Aceizace, do not bump old topics, please.
Create a new one or PM members.

[Aceizace]

Thanks for the info kef, but i do actually read the rules on the forums i regulary post in, and when i am using the search function provided with psow, i'm not going to know if this topic is extremely old, or if it's still going on, without specificaly looking, which one doesn't do. If there is going to be such a rule, and if i'm gunna get this sort of reply, then maybe they should auto-lock all topics which are X days since the last post, or easier still, make it so that replies don't move the topic to the top of the list. This is the first and only forum i've seen that does it, and acording to your reaction when it happened, i'm thinking it's not liked that much?

[Hrith]

Bumping topics is a violation of rule 4.

I think admins have enough work as it is and can expect members to 1) respect the rules and 2) use their best judgement about such matters.

You can see the post date above the post itself, for instance you posted at : "Posted: 2004-03-06 15:45"

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Soukosa]

There is an exception to that rule that if you reply with something that actually helps out with the post that it's okay to bump it. Besides, the last reply before they bumped it wasn't that long ago and it's not like they bumped an old DC thread or something.

[Hrith]

On 2004-03-06 16:04, Sounomi wrote:
There is an exception to that rule that if you reply with something that actually helps out with the post that it's okay to bump it.
which is not the case, and one month is quite old, so meh at you !

[VulpesMundi]

Well since the topic is active again, I may as well make use of it. I ran into yet another king-sized Pal Rappy the other night, my third. Got a few pics and figured I might as well share. I ran into it while doing FoS runs on Yellowboze and got a Hero/Ability from it (kinda disappointing).

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/etl/pso/2004_03/lilalef_v_pal-king_1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/etl/pso/2004_03/lilalef_v_pal-king_2.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/etl/pso/2004_03/lilalef_v_pal-king_3.jpg

[KaFKa]

nice rappyness, vulpes. and a hero-ability you say, yes, quite dissapointing indeed

[eXo]

Wow lets all forget the speculations about professional wrestlings & baseball players using steroids,a.k.a Barry Bonds http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif i am 100% sure that that Pal Rappy is on the juice. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif


also hiya vulpes long time no see are you currently active in EP III http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif

[Butoden]

Third Huge Pal Rappy http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif I didn't even find a normal-sized one -_-;

[TheWeeOne]

Okay, had to post now

I'e been plaing PSO since early Mar. '03, and had hit ult at first in late May '03. I didn't get online 'til September of last year, and now have a total of 6 chars in offline Ult.... The big deal: I've never seen a Pal Rappy; not big; not small; never!!!

I realized this three weeks ago (don't know why it took me that long, but my friend found one on his first run thru ult. and told me about it) I promptly began doing FiY runs offline, using my Pinkal because I wouldn't mind an Agito '75 but simply wanted to see one.

Since this, 24 FiY runs, about 30 pipes used on the second to last wave (highly elevated room), and over 200 pipes on the last rappy wave. NO PAL RAPPY; it's not like I'd miss him too; I was never half-asleep or distracted, and from the screens they seem to stick out. I don't blame anyone for thinking I'm lying, but I'm really not!!! If anyone has any way they can help me here that'd be awesome. I'd have the Stag Cutleries to prove this, but I began selling ones without %s in order to keep my box from being filled

as you guys brag about your luck, I'm sulking over my lack thereof

[ShinAsura666]

I was able to get my agito after only 7 pal rappies
got a lavis after 17 red slimes(that was nasty)
only problem now though is getting an angel harp for my skyly i tihnk im on somethin like 48 rappies LOL

[ShinAsura666]

if you wanna fight pal rappies(i kno this ounds odd but trust me)you should get yourself a delsabers buster and sheild,equip them and go to the room where you see the professor in the rappy outfit.just start piping and sooner or later one will appear.
note that this makes red slimes appear REALLY fast