FanArt: Digital or Analogue? - the skillz-

[navci]

Hi everyone! *waves*

I'm going to make this thread to discuss a bit of identifying, and appreciating the similarities and differences in digital and analogue made pictures. Hopefully this will provide some insights to what both media can do, and cannot do, their specialties and ... well stuff. And I am hoping that will provide useful information and insights to both art viewers, and artists themselves.

First of all, I have pulled out two links to wallpapers from PSOW of two pieces of EP 3 official artwork. Note, that are both huge, and Link is

Sil'fer (http://dynamic2b.gamespy.com/~psoworld/downloads/wallpaper/wp1.jpg)

Teifu (http://dynamic2b.gamespy.com/~psoworld/downloads/wallpaper/wall33.jpg)

I will use these two pictures to point out how recent digital media has evolved to a point that it is hard to tell the difference between digital and analogue, and what makes them so great. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

edit: I will pull more artwork I see from other sites here to illustrate points and for analysizing purposes. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif And you are welcome to pull out examples of them also!

edit: made new cool title.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: navi on 2004-02-21 23:47 ]</font>




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: navi on 2004-02-22 13:18 ]</font>

[Sharkyland]

I have no idea what analog drawing is.

[AzureBlaze]

Ah good an actual art discussion thread!
I love this sort. For me, it is not always entertaining enough to just comment on peoples' pictures, but to rather get really into the skills, media and inspirations they might of had or used when makeing them. I am sure this will turn up to be an interesting topic, and I am also sure it will involve the program called Painter.

...sneaky thing, that.

[navci]

On 2004-02-21 22:33, Sharkyland wrote:
I have no idea what analog drawing is.


By Analogue I mean traditional media. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I use "analogue" so it sounds like it matches up with digital. heh.

[Zzzzzz]

I can't draw good either way.
And is Painter Windows Paint?

[navci]

No. Painter is Corel Painter. THE ultimate sneaky program that can mimic most traditional media to death and back.

Okay. I just made some little .. er I'll call them focus squares. Heh

First I would like to draw you attention to the picture of Teifu, and here is our focus square:
http://schizo.skewed-reality.com/discuss/teifu1.jpg
What I would like you to see if the little round brush stroke there. Actually, they look very realisticly like water colour blobs. ANd notice the grey merge into the blue?

Then look at this, from the Reiz wallpaper (PSOW doesn't host this, so I just pulled my out and made my focus square)

http://schizo.skewed-reality.com/discuss/reiz1.jpg
I want to draw your attention to where the grey merge into the blue, and again, those round strokes. On the one with Reiz I think it is more obvious that these are less likely to be done by a pen, or a brush, but more on the CG side because of the regularity of the transperancy of the grey on blue. To illustrate this, I tried my best to replicate it on Photoshop.

http://schizo.skewed-reality.com/discuss/pshop1.jpg
How I did this was with two layers. Bottom layer being the blue, top layer being the grey. Technically you don't need two layers, I just did it for convinience. There is a very handy brush I love in Photoshop 7 that has a semi transperant airbrush quality, but draws like a wet ... brush. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif If you pull the opacity on the brush way down say, 50%, and the flow of the brush about 30%. (opacity controls how opaque you colour is going to be, in a way, how much it will COVER the base layer. And the Flow controls how fluidly your paint will appear on the canvas. More flow, smoother colour.)

While it was actually a chore to do this in Photoshop, I did this again with Corel Painter Classic. (a cheaper version of Corel Painter that comes with all Wacom Tablet)
http://schizo.skewed-reality.com/discuss/painter1.jpg

It wasn't even difficult to create those blobs. With the water colour tool you can just keep the layer wet and blend it over and over again.

http://schizo.skewed-reality.com/discuss/painter3.JPG
To further demonstrate the ease of blending, I did this little square... mimicing vaguely on how Sil'fer's hair is done.

I guess my point is. Painter .... rulez?
And I hope the blending attempt is useful to people who like to use Pshop to create some paint-like effects. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Er. I am sleepy.

I welcome input.

[Sharkyland]

Damn, this is really helpful especially who likes to use art programs. Couldn't you use like some kind of light blue marker and then overlap it with either melted oil pastels or even watered watercolor pencils?

[Zzzzzz]

Are you sure those weren't painted?
Wow, navi must have good eyes.

[navci]

On 2004-02-22 10:51, Zzzzzz wrote:
Are you sure those weren't painted?
Wow, navi must have good eyes.


As I pointed out, it looks really painted at first, but that's why I made focus squares. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif If you look again carefully at the picture, you will see many of the similar strokes my little focus square has captured.

I am going to do a watercolour type thingy later to demomstrate what it will look like. And you are all welcome to try to reproduce the same result! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Hands- on experience! That'd be fun.

[Sharkyland]

I can't reproduce that... well, not yet. Watercolor hates me.

[ladyjaderiver]

They really look like paintings, but when full size, you can tell that they're digital. (Oh, just for reference, I refer to using markers as painting, too... It's just that they have a shaped tip, as opposed to a flexible brush tip.)

*kicks computer for automatically resizing pictures to fit in the window* DON'T DO THAT! IT GETS ALL PIXELLY! *clicks the button to fix it* Much better...

Now, the only thing I routinely notice about digital painting is the... dull greyness of skintones. It almost always looks like the people have just risen from the dead. With markers or paints, you usually get a more pink/alive looking skintone, if only because they don't make a greyish skintone. Sil'fer, for example, looks like she hasn't had the best nutrition in a while, and that she's about to die because her skin is an unnatural colour. I've noticed that when I CG stuff I have the same problem of giving an innacurate skintone, and I don't do it with coloured pencils or markers.

Wow, I'll shut up now.

EDIT: Just so you know, I do paint, just not very often because the oil paint fumes and the smell of the stuff I use in place of turpentine gives me a headache (not to mention the sheer cost of oils). Watercolours and such just hate me, so I don't use them.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ladyjaderiver on 2004-02-22 11:59 ]</font>

[Lone_Wolf_Nasca]

I am so confused !! o.O

This is the reason why I prefer drawing the old fashioned way, pencils an paper ^_^ !! Cant go wrong with that http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif !!

[navci]

@ LJR, have you tried Acrylics? It is a flexible media, cost less, and doesn't smell! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Okay. This time I am tackling the concern about flat, dead skintone issue LJR brought up. It really depends on the artist on how he wants to express the skin stone. Most of them do like to work on a skin of less grey to more grey... hence: adding more black to make the colour darker. When you add more black, the tone of the colour of course increasingly looks greyer... but! It doesn't have to be like that, here is a snap of the sample picture of navi's art god: Capcom's very own AKIMAN! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

http://schizo.skewed-reality.com/discuss/chun-mai.jpg
Notice they are both quite pink and lifely. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

To illustrate what I meant I made a little snappy piccie:

http://schizo.skewed-reality.com/discuss/colour.jpg
On the left is an example of more grey, on the right, is the example of using saturation and other colour to blend into the skintone to make everything pinker.

Okay. If you cover up the right picture. the girl actually do look alright in terms of skin tone. I picked a colour for her skin, and then simple add more and more black into the colour to create a darker tone to make shadow. I did the same with the hair and the eye.

Compare it to the right one. It does have generally... more a look of life-ish, thing. What I did with the skin was, same colour we started with the left, then I pull up the saturation of the colour, and added more red into it. And I did the same with the hair and eye. The trick is, you don't always have to add red, of course. Trick is to add some other similar colour into your colour. Like.. hm. for Blue, you want a lighter tone? add in some green; darker? Purple. Of course at the same time you have to adjust the general grey-ness of your colour, but then do it to the minimal.

Er. I hope this isn't too confusing. If it helps, I use the HSB slider in Photoshop. (Hue, Saturation and Brightness). Left example of a tweak on the B slider, and second is on H and S. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

edit: Spelling :/
edit: more spelling. :/

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: navi on 2004-02-22 12:38 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: navi on 2004-02-22 12:40 ]</font>

[SabZero]

Well, most digital artists will agree that you shouldn't shade with black and highlight with white. It will almost always produce "artificial" or "non believable" results, where something realistic is shown.

So.. yeah?

[ladyjaderiver]

I'll just shut up now, as Navi misinterprets everything I ever say. (Not that this is necessarily her problem - I often find that people don't understand what I'm trying to say...)

So just ignore anything that comes from me in the future.

EDIT: Also, I hope that my five day absence next week will perhaps make her realize that I DON'T hate her.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ladyjaderiver on 2004-02-22 15:09 ]</font>

[Outrider]

Um... err?

Now, I didn't really do any kind of computer art until I was forced to. (Same situation with my scanner, for those who care.) Anywho, I really do find that it's hard to tell if something is done digitally or through normal means nowadays. Heck, most art that I see for games and whatnot... I don't know what parts are digital, if not all of them.

Eesh... sorry I can't really contribute... I've always been terrible with coloring.

[navci]

On 2004-02-22 15:07, ladyjaderiver wrote:
I'll just shut up now, as Navi misinterprets everything I ever say. (Not that this is necessarily her problem - I often find that people don't understand what I'm trying to say...)


Excuse me. Hm. Do we have a problem here? I am at a lost as to where is that coming from.

Er. Jade. Sorry if I misunderstood you. You mentioned skin tone, I thought you meant when people do it on a black and white scale. ... It was not an attack, or anything, I thought it'd be useful to talk about mixing in colour, and such.

I am confused?

@SabZero it completely depends on what mood you wanna convey in your picture. I have used grey scale shading on many ocassions, and they kinda work in dark, moody pictures. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

edit: spelling

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: navi on 2004-02-22 16:37 ]</font>

[Sord]

erm...riigghht (has no clue, well, a little bit, the pictures helped with the whole black shaidng thing.)

Oh, can you tell me if Corel PHOTO-PAINT 9 is a good art program? You've mentioned Corel a few times. If you say yes i would have to slap myself. I only use it for resizing pictures, adding text to pictures, merging picture into one file, or if it's a single object on one color scale, changing it to a diffrent color. Although for changing the color of things, i can only do red, blue, and green, as well as making the picture washed-out or change it to grey-scale. I need to teach myself how to use the program better, I know i can change more colors, I've done it before (hot pink!). The one thing that makes it hard is using a "mask." God! That system drives me nuts! Any tips on that?

[navci]

The one thing that makes it hard is using a "mask." God! That system drives me nuts! Any tips on that?


I am not familiar with Corel Photo-Painter. I have been talking about Corel Painter. Exact name.

Hm. I am not entirely sure how Mask system works in the program that you talk about. I can tell you how it works in Photoshop and maybe it has some similarities.

Okay. In Photoshop there is this thing called "Quick Mask mode" Once you enter it, all you can do it shade on a grey scale. So what it does is, for areas you shaded black, it's been completely covered and whatever you do afterwards will not affect this area one bit. And white is, uncovered area, of course. Grey, depending on the darkness of it will allow some sort of exposure to what you are about to do .

Think of it as a covering for your picture. From completely exposed to completely covered. It basically helps you do one thing to affect the picture differently in different areas.

[KodiaX987]

On 2004-02-22 18:27, Sord wrote:

Oh, can you tell me if Corel PHOTO-PAINT 9 is a good art program? You've mentioned Corel a few times. If you say yes i would have to slap myself. I only use it for resizing pictures, adding text to pictures, merging picture into one file, or if it's a single object on one color scale, changing it to a diffrent color. Although for changing the color of things, i can only do red, blue, and green, as well as making the picture washed-out or change it to grey-scale. I need to teach myself how to use the program better, I know i can change more colors, I've done it before (hot pink!). The one thing that makes it hard is using a "mask." God! That system drives me nuts! Any tips on that?


I'm a Corel Photopaint user myself. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

If you want to do quick and easy color changes, there's Image > Adjust > Replace Colors which I love. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Also, Image > Adjust > Hue/Saturation/Lightness or Image > Adjust > Color Balance can help. Hell, try everything under Image > Adjust and you'll notice some nifty things in there. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


What is your exact prob on masks? I might be able to help.

[ladyjaderiver]

...*cringe*... Wow, I was really mean and I don't even remember it. *offers cousin's FOnewm to Navi to make up for it*

[Jared_T]

Well as far as Digital media, everything I've posted in PSOW (4 pics) has never touched paper. Although I think my stuff is pretty obvious. I still need to work on some of the subtleties, like I need to lay off the blend/blur in most cases. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif It makes it too soft when I need some contrasts.

[geewj]

On 2004-02-22 11:57, ladyjaderiver wrote:
*kicks computer for automatically resizing pictures to fit in the window* DON'T DO THAT! IT GETS ALL PIXELLY! *clicks the button to fix it* Much better...


If you want to turn that off...


Tools
Internet Options
Advanced Tab
Multimedia sub folder
(check box) enable image auto-resize

Uncheck that and you're good to go.

[Sord]

On 2004-02-23 15:01, Prof_Frink wrote:


On 2004-02-22 11:57, ladyjaderiver wrote:
*kicks computer for automatically resizing pictures to fit in the window* DON'T DO THAT! IT GETS ALL PIXELLY! *clicks the button to fix it* Much better...


If you want to turn that off...


Tools
Internet Options
Advanced Tab
Multimedia sub folder
(check box) enable image auto-resize

Uncheck that and you're good to go.


Hallelujha (sp) I've had the problem since I'v gotten SBC Yahoo DSL. Thanks for the tip Frinkerz!

[Sharkyland]

On 2004-02-23 15:01, Prof_Frink wrote:If you want to turn that off...

Tools
Internet Options
Advanced Tab
Multimedia sub folder
(check box) enable image auto-resize

Uncheck that and you're good to go.

Oh, I have been looking forever for that. Thank you so much!

[Zzzzzz]

On 2004-02-23 13:05, Jared_T wrote:
Well as far as Digital media, everything I've posted in PSOW (4 pics) has never touched paper. Although I think my stuff is pretty obvious. I still need to work on some of the subtleties, like I need to lay off the blend/blur in most cases. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif It makes it too soft when I need some contrasts.


You didn't even draw a sketch?
Wow.

[navci]

You didn't even draw a sketch?
Wow.


I know you're not asking me. But, on a good day (for example, the day I drew Davion), it only took about 2 hours from start to finish. No sketch needed once my pen start scratching the tablet the picture is just taking shape my itself.

On a BAD day, however, when the picture doesn't want to show up, then it could become little sessions over a period of much, much longer time. Which is quite painful really. :/ So I try to do my drawings on a good day. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Jared_T]

I know what you mean Navi. And once again I NEED A TABLET. I only use a touchpad and some time a trackball. Hopfully I'll get one someday. Most of the stuff I do take alot of time, and a tablet would seriously reduce the time.

[ladyjaderiver]

Tablets are evil! At least to me (especially the one in the photography room! *growls*)...

You're so fast, Navi! I'm jealous... Just a stupid sketch takes me an hour or so.

[navci]

On a good day. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Anyway. The purpose of this thread is to dicuss about artwork maybe how to micmic shading of analogue media with digital stuff... I got myself a new artbook yesterday and if I got time and patience, maybe I can pull some out and talk about it? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif In the mean time, I welcome all sorts of drawing related discussion and questions here. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif (mostly about shading I guess)