... its OK for me to say that, but not you...

[anwserman]

Yup, good 'ol double standard talk again! And actually, its not about other people but rather, me. I've always used phrases like "God Dammit!" or "Oh my God!" and stuff like that, and its annoying the heck out of me because so far, people have called me on it. And that I do need to change those phrases... but I'm starting to feel guilty for calling people on words I hate (, etc.), so yeah its kinda a double standard that I participated in but I feel really guilty about it.

Meh, just wanted to rant that off. And I found this comic online (from Yahoo! Comics, I forgot its title), but all I know is that a while back, I would have laughed and said, "How true" but now I feel somewhat insulted from the comic... not necessairly because of my beliefs but because of other peoples. Urg.

http://lucky-s-designs.com/PSO/comic.gif.gif

lolita edit: find some other examples of words.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LollipopLolita on 2004-02-27 10:21 ]</font>

[Scejntjynahl]

But the cartoon is essentially telling the truth. I am not badgering any religion, but to me (my opinion) religion is nothing but a loaded gun. By itself it is harmless, it is the person that wields it that can do great harm, or great benefits.

So the cartoon is showing the "truth" behind the venner of religion. Ultimately it is man's fault for the wrong doings of everything.

[Sord]

On 2004-02-26 12:08, Furankunichan wrote:
But the cartoon is essentially telling the truth. I am not badgering any religion, but to me (my opinion) religion is nothing but a loaded gun. By itself it is harmless, it is the person that wields it that can do great harm, or great benefits.

So the cartoon is showing the "truth" behind the venner of religion. Ultimately it is man's fault for the wrong doings of everything.


well, I would think it's our ancestors fault for starting the chain of events leading up to the present. Anyways, i can't read the sign to well. I can't read the second word under food. Is the sign like this?

Food Distrubution:
Me
Men
Women
Children

[undevil]

I am athiest. Nothing anyone sais can prove that god really exist. Nothing.

Oh god exist because the bible sais so. Well the bible was written by a person.

[_Sinue_]

Nothing anyone sais can prove that god really exist. Nothing. - undevil

Which is probably why belief in god is generally refered to as a faith.


well, I would think it's our ancestors fault for starting the chain of events leading up to the present - Sord

I would think it would be better for each person to be held accountable for their own actions. Like the poster above said, Religeon is a loaded gun.. which many people don't know how to handle responsibly.

[anwserman]

On 2004-02-26 14:30, Sord wrote:


On 2004-02-26 12:08, Furankunichan wrote:
But the cartoon is essentially telling the truth. I am not badgering any religion, but to me (my opinion) religion is nothing but a loaded gun. By itself it is harmless, it is the person that wields it that can do great harm, or great benefits.

So the cartoon is showing the "truth" behind the venner of religion. Ultimately it is man's fault for the wrong doings of everything.


well, I would think it's our ancestors fault for starting the chain of events leading up to the present. Anyways, i can't read the sign to well. I can't read the second word under food. Is the sign like this?

Food Distrubution:
Me
Men
Women
Children




Yup, thats what the sign says... and thats because that is what "God wants".

And that quote about the loaded gun, thats is so very, very true. A gun can be used either for good or for harm, and the analogy is strikingly accurate.

[Daikarin]

We all have our double standards.

I could be the passive guy who only likes a enjoying a good day. Or, I could easily lose it and become seriously sarcastic.

I guess that my evil side is pretty much dying now, since I worked a lot on it.

So should you, I guess. But heck, if it makes you feel better, if I didn't have my double standards three years ago, I wouldn't write "Ultimate Hunters"!

[BogusKun]

On 2004-02-26 15:03, _Sinue_ wrote:

I would think it would be better for each person to be held accountable for their own actions. Like the poster above said, Religeon is a loaded gun.. which many people don't know how to handle responsibly.



I would think so as well. I'm not religious and I find it quite annoying that people blame their wrong actions/depend on some Light just because they're irresponsible/lazy.

[Sord]

On 2004-02-26 15:03, _Sinue_ wrote:

Nothing anyone sais can prove that god really exist. Nothing. - undevil

Which is probably why belief in god is generally refered to as a faith.


well, I would think it's our ancestors fault for starting the chain of events leading up to the present - Sord

I would think it would be better for each person to be held accountable for their own actions. Like the poster above said, Religeon is a loaded gun.. which many people don't know how to handle responsibly.


I'de like to think that way, but one thing won't let me. That's the fact that we are all act according to rections of people around us. This builds your personality, no one is truly themselves, we all act the way we do as some reaction to the chain of events that have happened in our lives. Though all the chains started with the beginning of mankind, however and wherever it happened. I guess you could go into the fact that the first humans acted the way they do because of the environment, but they had free will, they could have chosen what to do. We don't have free will, not really. I could say, "I have free will to be gay," (I mean no offence to you anwserman) But in reality, I don't. I can't be gay, because the way i was raised has effected me so that i can't be gay, i don't like the image of another guy, well, you know...

It was all started by a chain the i grew up in. That chain can be traced through trillions of big and little events, all the way back to the beginning of mankind (if we had the written documents for it.) Anyways, knowing this kind of saddens me. Sometimes I wonder if the "Wise envy the simple minded," saying is true.

[undevil]

I just think god was made up to explain weird events that happen like rain, thunder, ect. It is what uneducated people make up when they can't explain the things around them. Some unknown force is causing them to happen. Of course, we now live in an era where we know mostly everything, so why religion still exist is beyond me. The really religious countries in Africa and such are full of uneducated people who don't understand the world around them. They make up gods as well.

God isn't looking out for you. You are looking out for you.

[Bradicus]

On 2004-02-26 19:38, undevil wrote:
I just think god was made up to explain weird events that happen like rain, thunder, ect. It is what uneducated people make up when they can't explain the things around them. Some unknown force is causing them to happen. Of course, we now live in an era where we know mostly everything, so why religion still exist is beyond me. The really religious countries in Africa and such are full of uneducated people who don't understand the world around them. They make up gods as well.

God isn't looking out for you. You are looking out for you.


what is wrong with people filling the void in their lives with religion? 'Tis better than not filling it at all.

[undevil]

Well I never said it isn't alright for them too. For all I know, a god really does exist. I guess I will feel stupid while I rot in hell. But scientifically, god doesn't exist.

[shinto_kuji]

Undevil... -sigh-

The Bible wasn't written by a person. It was written by many, many people over the course of thousands of years. So, yeah. I'm sorry, but there is more to prove some form of "God/creator" than there is to disprove it.

What pisses me off is people who don't bother even looking into any religions, but just flat out say that they're all false.

But, I kind of went off topic. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

EDIT: And you're pretty ignorant if you think mainstream religion is (or ever was) used to explain things like thunder or rain. I still do not see why people pit science against religion. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that science has done much to prove a God/creator/divine being/etc. and other fields (like archiolegy) have proven many of the things written in the Bible.

Learn how to do it intelligently (and how to write, spell, and use correct grammar) before argueing something as large as religion itself.

Look, I made a mini-rant! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: shinto_kuji on 2004-02-26 20:00 ]</font>

[undevil]

Well I have looked into some religions. Especially Christianity. But I just don't like the concepts behind them. Not to mention how much death religion has brought to this world.

[LordCronai]

I'm not sure exactly where I stand on religion. After being dragged to church for years I have to say it's the most boring experience of my life to spend Sunday morning in the building, but the Bible is more convincing than other religions to me. Right now I don't really know and I don't really care. I try to be a good person so that way you're safe.
I believe some form of a god exists whether the one described in the Bible is that god or not. Something had to trigger the beginning of this universe, because in a dimension where time exists everything has to have a start in some way. In another dimension where time is not an element of the universe, "God" must have done something to trigger our creation. The idea of random chemical reactions creating the universe makes no sense to me-who or what made the chemicals that made the reacions that made the universe? Perhaps we're all just LEGOs in the god's eyes and he's never talked to us, or maybe the Bible is true, I don't know. I'm only 13 so I have plenty of time to think over these things and hear different opinions.
The god I speak of would not be from this dimension. In the dimension our universe resides in, everything has to have something that triggered its creation because we have the element of time here, meaning for our universe to be created or for whatever triggered the universe to be created to be created, someone or something from a dimension where time is not an element had to be the original trigger. This may not be a supernatural being at all, it could be just another species of sentient people like us, I don't know. And that's the bottom line in the end, we can't know, so adhering to a belief on this is redundant because we can't prove anything. All we can do is go about with our philosophy and guessing, and we may never know the answers. No one can prove the existance of God with cold hard evidence, nor can anyone disprove the existance of God any better.

[shinto_kuji]

Sorry again, undevil. Religion isn't the cause of any death. It's like said above, religion is a loaded gun.

What I find funny is the extreme hipocrits who go out and kill and say it's for their religion. I haven't seen one religion (outside of freaky-ass cults) that endorse killing.

Really, this world would suck without religion. Everything would be kind of pointless then, no?

[anwserman]

Religion is a very good thing when it isn't abused.

Isn't that the general concensus of this thread so far? Undevil keeps the opinion of that religion was created to help explain the unknown (much like how I used to think too), there isn't anything wrong with it, if it helps you make it through your day.

Unless you use religion as a scapegoat against a person or group.. thats wrong. Holy wars, right?

EDIT: No offense taken Sord. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: anwserman on 2004-02-26 20:30 ]</font>

[Sord]

um, look, here is my two sence on the bible:

fictional story based on true events. For example:

Jesus, not Christ, he was a medicine man ahead of his time. He was Jewish (yes, Jesus is Jewish, OMG! I hate people who freak over that) but he didn't like the way his religion was. So using his great skills as a medicine man, he managed to convince the people into Christanity.

Oh, and the whole bible being written by several people, it's like fan fictions. One person reads the book, and decides to add on to it. Eventually people like the ideals in the book, and abide by them. But soon, they begin to believe in god and yada yada. And thus it progresses.

[Kiara]

I don't think religion is something that should be a major factor in your life but more like something you take a glass at a time. Who knows? Maybe we weren't created at all, maybe it's like on south park, where we're all just one big reality TV show?

P.S. Love the comic.

[TactixPimp]

Reading this thread, I figured I'd give my own two cents....

First of all, I am very impressed at the amount of respect so far on this thread...I haven't seen any immature comments directed to anyone, just points and counterpoints being made...if only other threads ran like this.

Anyways, religion is a very important part of my life. I believe that although the sciences such as physics and chemistry are like the "laws" of the earth ( you know, like Maxwell's equations, Ideal Gas Laws...), there is a higher being that laid all this out. I believe ANY "holy war" is wrong on any level, and as said before, most of their religions don't approve of it...

The problem that I see with religion is not religion itself, but the people that warp it, and turn it into a huge argument over who are the ones who are right. In my opinion, any religion that helps a person live to be a better person is a good religion...it just depends on the person and on what that person has been exposed to..

Anyways, thats about it....keep it up!

[Myopathy]

On 2004-02-26 22:57, TactixPimp wrote:
Reading this thread, I figured I'd give my own two cents....

First of all, I am very impressed at the amount of respect so far on this thread...I haven't seen any immature comments directed to anyone, just points and counterpoints being made...if only other threads ran like this.

Anyways, religion is a very important part of my life. I believe that although the sciences such as physics and chemistry are like the "laws" of the earth ( you know, like Maxwell's equations, Ideal Gas Laws...), there is a higher being that laid all this out. I believe ANY "holy war" is wrong on any level, and as said before, most of their religions don't approve of it...

The problem that I see with religion is not religion itself, but the people that warp it, and turn it into a huge argument over who are the ones who are right. In my opinion, any religion that helps a person live to be a better person is a good religion...it just depends on the person and on what that person has been exposed to..

Anyways, thats about it....keep it up!


Oh dear, you posted. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

On topic: Agreed.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-02-27 00:07 ]</font>

[Ness]

In religion, it's the holy men that have the power, not the deities.

[Superguppie]

Hmmmmmmm
Well, I'm no star when it comes to religion. I'm not even an atheist. (That's someone who says "There is no god".) More like an agnost. (That's someone who just says "I don't know. Could be, could not be. I just don't know")
So, I had to lose the christian bad-words I picked up mostly in the roman catholic schools I went to. And that was hard, because they curse so well. But I found that some disease names, have the same "quality" to them. Especialy in Dutch, with the growling gs and rolling rs. Griep-cholera (Influenza-cholera) curses pretty much as well as Godverdomme (God-dammit) It takes some getting used to, and some training the new habits. But it's worth it. No more christians bugging me about it.

That said, I'm still at a loss how those christian curses came to be. To a non-christian (like me) they are empty. And to a christian they are prohibited. (It's in the 10 commandments, right?) But that's probably another story...

[Armok]

On 2004-02-26 19:46, undevil wrote:
Well I never said it isn't alright for them too. For all I know, a god really does exist. I guess I will feel stupid while I rot in hell. But scientifically, god doesn't exist.



I would bank on science being right on the matter they do have a tendancy to make things up in order to make experiements look right.

Oh this is from a 3rd year science degree student before you attack me for not knowing wat I'm on about

[undevil]

I guess I am an agnost. Really, I don't know what goes on when you die. Something has to happen, whether it be reincarnation or your soul goes up to heaven. But I just don't think the theory of god makes sense.

[Armok]

I dont think the theory of me just not existing in any sense or form makes sense.

[undevil]

On 2004-02-27 06:06, Armok wrote:
I dont think the theory of me just not existing in any sense or form makes sense.



That is what I think. I can't imagine just not existing.

[flash_fire]

Well, I am not by any means a devout Christian, in Fact I used to consider myself an Atheist, but Then I got to thinking really hard. The Scientific "Big Bang Theory" is the most likely explanation of how the universe came to be, but where did all the matter for the Big Bang come from? It had to come from somewhere, which led me to think that there perhaps is some kind of creator/deity out there that created that matter. I mean, it had to come from somewhere right?

On a personal note, I believe fully in the Big Bang Theory but like I said above, the matter that split had to come from somewhere.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: flash_fire on 2004-02-27 07:15 ]</font>

[Superguppie]

I think you should do some reading up on the big bang theory. The big bang didn't spread matter. Matter was created after the big bang from pure energy. (That is, if I understand the theory correctly. Any theoretical physicist that knows about this?) So, it is clear where the matter came from. Also, it is clear that the matter wasn't involved in the big bang.
That leaves open where the energy came from, and why that energy started space-time and the matter in it. If you want an origin and a reason to exist and name it, you might name it God. Being an agnost, I just say (once again) I just don't know.

@undevil and Armok (I think): I have a hard time imagining not existing too. However, I don't fix this with the notion of a soul as an eternal part of me, and this soul going anywhere.
I can't imagine not having been here before I was born, yet I wasn't here. We have pictures and stories and stuff to give an impression of how it was, but that only serves to give us the memory of being there. It still isn't like really not being there. (at least to me)
I have accepted there was a time I wasn't here, without imagining what it was like. And I have no problem accepting not being here after I die.
At the moment I have no reason to believe there is anything to me except the physical me. If the physical me stops existing, I stop existing. (Actualy, those are the same thing to me, so this is like saying 1 = 1.)
I could try imagining what that would be like. However, I don't feel the need, as I don't believe I'll be there to check on it anyway.

[Armok]

Glad some of u ppl can except oblivion.

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-26 12:08, Furankunichan wrote:
"Ultimately it is man's fault for the wrong doings of everything"
lmao, nice one http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif
maybe you should consider all alternatives when making such a statement.



On 2004-02-26 19:43, Bradicus wrote:
What is wrong with people filling the void in their lives with religion? 'Tis better than not filling it at all.
Remains to be proven.
If you have faith, then there's no void to fill.
If there's a void, rather keep it for something better.
Filling any void with religion because nothing else yet has come would be fleeing from reality, which in my experience has never brought anything good.



On 2004-02-26 19:49, shinto_kuji wrote:
I'm sorry, but there is more to prove some form of "God/creator" than there is to disprove it.
http://www.consoles-games.com/forum/images/smiles/Tourne1.gif
damn ! how did you come with that one, c'mon, I'm crying.



On 2004-02-26 19:49, shinto_kuji wrote:
What pisses me off is people who don't bother even looking into any religions, but just flat out say that they're all false.
Yeah, al least, I agree with you here http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



On 2004-02-26 20:08, shinto_kuji wrote:
Sorry again, undevil. Religion isn't the cause of any death. It's like said above, religion is a loaded gun.

What I find funny is the extreme hipocrits who go out and kill and say it's for their religion. I haven't seen one religion (outside of freaky-ass cults) that endorse killing.
That "loaded gun" is a very lame excuse to say "everything bad comes from men, everything good comes from God"
Good and bad are to be blamed on the same side.

Now account for the Crusades or the blessing of Hitler's tanks by the Pope himself.


Really, this world would suck without religion. Everything would be kind of pointless then, no?
To me it would be endlessly better. Religion has no part in my life, and it is far from being pointless, thanks.



On 2004-02-26 20:27, anwserman wrote:
Religion is a very good thing when it isn't abused.
Oh yeah ?
Explain.
From my experience, religion is bad whether you believe in it or not, that's why I'm neither an atheist nor a believer.

I liked TactixPimp's post, but you have to bear in mind that religions DID approve of wars and deaths. Of course they won't clearly state this, and nowadays, they either deny it or make amends. But high clergy men ARE the religion, and if you think otherwise, then you imply religion is subjective, which is the same as saying God does not exist.

So if you believe in God, take into account all that has happened.

But honestly I loathe religion in all its forms, but I respect people who have faith. It's like a different notion to me.
People who have faith do not need to read the Bible/Coran/Tora, etc. or go to religious temples to believe.

I have a Muslim friend like that, I like conversing with him on that issue (and others, but oh well), we can have interesting philosophical debates http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
And one day I came to his place and said : "God does not exist, listen..." he was really annoyed at my argument because he could not reply anything http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif
But that did not alter his faith an inch, I respect that.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kef on 2004-02-27 08:24 ]</font>

[flash_fire]

Energy is a form of matter.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: flash_fire on 2004-02-27 10:09 ]</font>

[LollipopLolita]

flash_fire, now that's a neoplatonist view of religion. sorta like plotinus.

now you can't deny that religion has had a purpose or an impact. christianity has done much to shape morals and ethics and western thought and culture, whether you like it or not. religion can be a good thing or a bad thing. that is because of humans, because humans as well can be good or bad. humans can make use of religion to be good or bad or to do good or bad. (eg: actions of a pope does not dictate the truth and core fundamentals of the religion itself) but religion can provide a structure, a moral guide or a life guide for people who needs it. and if you don't need it, then good for you.

and it's a fallacy to debate or argue a point when already having declared your opinion and feelings. that would not allow for an exchange of ideas. also, before starting on a debate about religion, one should study the history and origins of religions.

and we shall go back on topic.

people who say: oh my goddess and oh my dogness annoy me.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LollipopLolita on 2004-02-27 10:20 ]</font>

[anwserman]

Kef, in regards to what I said, if having faith in religion helps you sleep at night, then it is a good thing. If it helps you conquer a fear of death, for instance, then it is a good thing.

But all of the horrible things that happened in the past, "for the cause of religion", wasn't done by religion itself but rather by people whose minds misconstruded it. Religion can be a very good thing in the right hands, but it can be very dangerous too in the wrong hands.

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-27 12:16, anwserman wrote:
Kef, in regards to what I said, if having faith in religion helps you sleep at night, then it is a good thing. If it helps you conquer a fear of death, for instance, then it is a good thing.

But all of the horrible things that happened in the past, "for the cause of religion", wasn't done by religion itself but rather by people whose minds misconstruded it. Religion can be a very good thing in the right hands, but it can be very dangerous too in the wrong hands.
I utterly disagree, on both points, but, heh, that's my opinion.
I have never witnessed religion do anything good, in whomever hands, except in movies.

[undevil]

On 2004-02-27 12:41, Kef wrote:

I utterly disagree, on both points, but, heh, that's my opinion.
I have never witnessed religion do anything good, in whomever hands, except in movies.



You must not get out a lot then. Take a look around you. Religion helps a lot of people do good things.

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-27 12:45, undevil wrote:


On 2004-02-27 12:41, Kef wrote:

I utterly disagree, on both points, but, heh, that's my opinion.
I have never witnessed religion do anything good, in whomever hands, except in movies.



You must not get out a lot then. Take a look around you. Religion helps a lot of people do good things.


You have not read/understood my post, talking with you does not interest me unless you can listen to others.

And, hey ! I'm French. So maybe you are the one who needs to go out more, to France for instance, then you might know what I am talking about.

[Scejntjynahl]

On 2004-02-27 08:23, Kef wrote:


On 2004-02-26 12:08, Furankunichan wrote:
"Ultimately it is man's fault for the wrong doings of everything"
lmao, nice one http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif
maybe you should consider all alternatives when making such a statement.



What other alternatives, aliens from space? The voices in your head? The Lawn Gnomes? The statement itself is not false. Human race is about the only race of creatures that are both intelligent and selfdestructive. Heh, you dont see a dolphin building an atomic bomb. But we sure use the dolphins to detect bombs underwater at the expense of their life. Oh, and btw, the bombs were made by man, placed by man, and meant to destroy man.

Polution: Man
Natural Resources running out: Man
Wars: Man
Injustices: Man
Bigotry: Man
Religious Persecution: Man
Sexual transmitted diseases: Man
New ways to torture: Man
Explotation of other beings and man: Man

So enlighten me, what other alternatives are you referring too?

[Hrith]

http://routergod.com/agentsmith/agent_smith_explains.jpg

YOU ARE PARASITES !

I was referring to the eventuality that God does not exist, which is not often mentioned.
I was replying to your false theory of the loaded gun, not the nature of mankind.

[Scejntjynahl]

On 2004-02-27 13:38, Kef wrote:
YOU ARE PARASITES !

I was referring to the eventuality that God does not exist, which is not often mentioned.
I was replying to your false theory of the loaded gun, not the nature of mankind.



Ok, its not a theory to begin with, it is an analogy. And so what if God does not exist. It is the idea that remains. You can kill the man, but never the idea. The loaded gun, if you will, is a creation of man. Such as religion. They are nothing but "objects". On their own, they cause and produce nothing. Like inertia. To give something movement it needs an outside influence. And that influence, Kef, is man.


Btw: Awesome picture of Mr. Smith and Morfeus, good choice too.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Furankunichan on 2004-02-27 14:26 ]</font>

[Hrith]

So you agree that Religion is a creation of man ?
Because that's what I think.
What I resent is people that blame bad things on mankind and praise God for good things.

That logic has a major flaw :
If God is to be praised about good omens, then He is to be blamed (not individually) for bad things, since He created men.

[Sord]

On 2004-02-27 07:14, flash_fire wrote:
Well, I am not by any means a devout Christian, in Fact I used to consider myself an Atheist, but Then I got to thinking really hard. The Scientific "Big Bang Theory" is the most likely explanation of how the universe came to be, but where did all the matter for the Big Bang come from? It had to come from somewhere, which led me to think that there perhaps is some kind of creator/deity out there that created that matter. I mean, it had to come from somewhere right?

On a personal note, I believe fully in the Big Bang Theory but like I said above, the matter that split had to come from somewhere.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: flash_fire on 2004-02-27 07:15 ]</font>

Okay, the big bang theory is this:

All matter in the universe (or at least for a very very very long distance) is compacted into a ball a bit smaller than a golf ball. It explodes, and matter&energy spread through the universe. Various matter clump together while floating through space, chemical reactions, gravity, and other energies have a roll in the forming of galaxies, starts, ect.

That's the simplified theory. It doesn't even answer why the ball exploded. Well supposedly the origanal matter consisted of matter and anti-matter (just like regular matter, but the proton and electron charges are swapped) and are having kind of like a little war of energies. Anyways, the matter overcomes antimatter and the imbalance causes...KABLOOIE!!!

Another thing on anti-matter. It's so rare that it's estimated to only be 2% of it on Earth, or it might be the universe, i can't remember which. Also, when you put anti-matter and matter of the same element (hydrogen&anti-hydrogen) they explode, anilating each other and releasing an enourmous amount of energy. That has been tested by the way.

[Scejntjynahl]

That logic has a major flaw :
If God is to be praised about good omens, then He is to be blamed (not individually) for bad things, since He created men.



Good one. Hmmm, here have another flaw. If God (god, or whatever title you want to use) is omnipotent and omniscient, do we, the human race have free will? I mean, we are nothing but the past, if our future can be seen by this god. So we are like a movie whose line you have memorized and ending you know by heart. Im just throwing this idea for the heck of it.

[Kent]

Instead of typing out a long, thought-out opinion on religions that will piss off a mod for making offensive comments (despite how true they may or may not be), I'll just stick to this: Religions are crap, they have no place in my life. If you want one wasting your time, that's your problem, and I respect that, just don't trry to put it on me.

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-27 14:32, Furankunichan wrote:
Good one. Hmmm, here have another flaw. If God (god, or whatever title you want to use) is omnipotent and omniscient, do we, the human race have free will? I mean, we are nothing but the past, if our future can be seen by this god. So we are like a movie whose line you have memorized and ending you know by heart. Im just throwing this idea for the heck of it.
By "all-seeing" the Bible states that God can see past, present and future, which is hilarious IMO, but the Bible says so.

[Soukosa]

On 2004-02-27 14:24, Kef wrote:
That logic has a major flaw :
If God is to be praised about good omens, then He is to be blamed (not individually) for bad things, since He created men.

Yeah, that's basicly true. He created humans, gave them their own free will, knowing very well that they would end up sinning eventually.



On 2004-02-27 22:32, Kef wrote:
By "all-seeing" the Bible states that God can see past, present and future, which is hilarious IMO, but the Bible says so.

As with seeing the future, you can't really do so, since the future isn't set in stone. But, with all of His great wisdom, He'd know how things will go.

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-27 22:39, Sounomi wrote:


On 2004-02-27 14:24, Kef wrote:
That logic has a major flaw :
If God is to be praised about good omens, then He is to be blamed (not individually) for bad things, since He created men.

Yeah, that's basicly true. He created humans, gave them their own free will, knowing very well that they would end up sinning eventually.
Which means He is responsible for it, so it's either all His fault, or all ours.




On 2004-02-27 22:32, Kef wrote:
By "all-seeing" the Bible states that God can see past, present and future, which is hilarious IMO, but the Bible says so.

As with seeing the future, you can't really do so, since the future isn't set in stone. But, with all of His great wisdom, He'd know how things will go.
err, you are supposed to know the Bible better than myself >_>
The Book says that not only can He see past, present and future, but that he makes them.
and seeing the past is as ludicrous, the past has no beginning, so when did God start creating it ?
I think that Time does not apply to God, but I was replying to Furankunichan.

[Soukosa]

On 2004-02-27 22:47, Kef wrote:
Which means He is responsible for it, so it's either all His fault, or all ours.

Yeah, you can say that. I still feel that he created us with our own free will, provided that we were going to end up sinning and causing us to live in the very imperfect world that we have now, all for a very good reason.



The Book says that not only can He see past, present and future, but that he makes them.

I can see Him as making them. He made us, He made our initial personalities, He placed in the family, country, etc that we are in and He will know what all of this will do to our personailities, which in turn affect the over outcome of our future.



and seeing the past is as ludicrous, the past has no beginning, so when did God start creating it ?

There isn't a beginning or an end. God was never born and has always existed.



I think that Time does not apply to God

Time is just another one of God's creations. He created the day and the night, so wouldn't He have created time and such as well?

[Hrith]

The more you get scientific about God, the less credibility it has.

[LollipopLolita]

well anyone taking god and the bible too literally and thinking about it scietifically and logically is bound to run into problems. it was never meant to be something like an encyclopedia and things have been lost in translations, versions and after all it's a human account of what happened and not a documentary and is better used as a guide. although people continue to insist on debating details. if you go on debating these things, you've missed the point of the faith and religion itself. people overthink, overanalyze, overscrutinize, then feel all smart and good at the end but then it is just a waste of time. anyone can poke and prod at it all they want and use certain parts to find their solution or problem.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LollipopLolita on 2004-02-28 09:17 ]</font>

[KaFKa]

[FKL reference] Kefka, i thought you were a disciple of SPOON?[/FKL reference]

now on to the point *cough*

those with faith will always believe, and those without will always not believe. Those that think that 'god' exists will always believe, no matter how conclusive the evidence against it is.

now then, to take this discussion to a different direction. all i ever hear about god anymore is about how he is so great. looking back in the king james bible (yes, i was forced to go to chuch when i was young) i can easily see that this immortal spirit known as god is decidedly evil. he brings down the wrath of plagues, floods, death and destruction upon those that dont follow him. looking back in the old testament, it is clearly visible that everything he does is for himself. he always gives to people expecting much more in return. he wants sacrifices of lambs as offerings to him... how can one that deems himself so good ad pure deem this a good act? to symbolize that he is the lamb? of course not. if he wanted his symbol as a lamb, then the killing of such things would be pure blasphemy.

i would go more in depth, but im not going to be here for the rest of the day.

[Bradicus]

The bible must be right...

it says so in the bible.

I just wish that there was a religion out there that had more than sketchy promises to offer.

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-28 09:37, Bradicus wrote:
I just wish that there was a religion out there that had more than sketchy promises to offer.
The SPOON http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

well, hmmm
When I read the Bible (King James' Bible) I did not read it from a (pseudo-)scientific point of view. I read it fom a literary point of view, since that was my purpose.
And on that matter, it is a bad book, awkward style, uselessly complicated, etc. Only the Genesis has a literary interest.

As for the religious aspect, maybe Lolita's right and I failed to grasp it because of my total lack of faith, but I dare think I understood it, and I read it for what it is, not in order to see what I wanted.
I have no interpretation of the Bible to give.
I just cannot take the idea of any divine being seriously.

[LollipopLolita]

a christian can be a christian and understand god without having to read, analyze, memorize and fully understand the bible. which is why it's belief of faith. because it's more important in christianity to live the life, walk the walk, and not just talk the talk. and to give everything to God. for you to understand the religion and belief system, you must adopt the principle of charity.

[Alielle]

Uh, in the spirit of the original post...

I get really annoyed when people say "Oh gods." It implies that the person actually took the time to modify an automatic habit simply to express that they're pagan or whatever. Who cares?

By default, I'll say "Jesus Christ onna stick!" and "God dammit" unless someone protests. If someone sits there offended without saying anything, it's not my fault.

Finally, the Big Bang theory (yes, THEORY) is becoming really outdated (http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/BIGBANG/Bigbang.html).

[Soukosa]

What is it with this feeling that God can only exist if you are part of a religion and that looking at from a scientific stand point is wrong? I don't consider myself part of any religion. I feel that God exist solely from aspect that I can see a divine being existing by looking at things that way. I also fail to see things like macro evolution and everything just coming together in perfect harmony all purely by chance. While I can not prove the existice of a devine being, evolution can be disproven along with all the other things like the nature of fossils, the inaccuracy of carbon dating, the inaccuracy of how astronomers measure the distance to stars and what not, etc. With this said, I'm done here. I feel that I no longer have a purpose for participating in things like this.

[Solstis]

On 2004-02-28 15:47, Sounomi wrote:
What is it with this feeling that God can only exist if you are part of a religion and that looking at from a scientific stand point is wrong? I don't consider myself part of any religion. I feel that God exist solely from aspect that I can see a divine being existing by looking at things that way. I also fail to see things like macro evolution and everything just coming together in perfect harmony all purely by chance. While I can not prove the existice of a devine being, evolution can be disproven along with all the other things like the nature of fossils, the inaccuracy of carbon dating, the inaccuracy of how astronomers measure the distance to stars and what not, etc. With this said, I'm done here. I feel that I no longer have a purpose for participating in things like this.



I've agreed with every one of your posts on this subject. I like how ya think!

But... I won't shoot a dead horse, and leave it up to the hecklers to continue this discussion.

[dylcool]

I wish I had gotten into this conversation earlier. While reading this, I have jumped up in disgust several times.

First off, Kef, laughing at what other people say and saying they are wrong doesn't make you look smart, it just makes you look ignorant.

I'm somewhat surprised that there aren't that many pious Christians that are in the argument. (I'm not saying there aren't, those that are in the argument, good for you, you're being good Christians. I'm just noting that there are a lot more non-Christians than I expected)

Ok, my contribution. Sort of like what Ness said before, the impurities of religion come from human manipulation. Religion becomes a tool because of the entire premise of faith. Faith is the belief in something that you don't know is true. In turn, HUMANs with impure intentions USE RELIGION. What do you think Osama Bin Laden did? What do you think Sadaam Hussein did? The same goes for other religions. Did anyone read Leo Tolstoy's Master and Man? Tolstoy makes a statment on these kind of people with Vassili, a corrupt church official who makes money off of the church. Another good example is the corrupt laymen who would offer indulgences, guarantees into heaven for a certain price. The negatives of religion are brought by humans impurely using people's faith as a tool.

One more thing, and please don't jump on me for this. I've noticed, in the few religious discussions on PSO World that I've seen, a lot of people have a "personal religion" of sorts, in which they don't believe in a certain religion. To those people, is this because religion wasn't forced when you were young, or because it was forced to much. How did you come to these beliefs?

One thing about religion, is that we, as humans, are not able to understand it completely. It is supposed to be the unknown, above us. So I really don't think anyone here has a complete understanding of it.

[Hrith]

For an ignotant person, I sure know a lot more that you do, for I understand both my point of view and yours.

When you try to sound philosophical about Religion corrupted by Man, you lack logic : if you separate Man and Religion (as it is your conclusion), then how should Religion affect us ?
We are men, and that will never change. You can only deal with religion from a human point of view.
If you say "God is above us, and not for us to understand" ok, fair enough, but if you say "Religion is above us" (well at least people who believe in it) then I think you are wrong, because it is part of their lives. A religion not meant to be understood is not meant for humans.

And yeah, religion makes me laugh, so what ?

A lot of people here miss the commandment "thou shalt not judge thy neighbour" >_>

Anyway, nice fanfic, I read it in Outrider's sig

[flash_fire]

Well, like several people already said, there is nothing wrong with religion. It often fills a void in a persons life. There is nothing wrong with believing something without proof, We all have to do that or we wouldn't have mathematics. Postulates anyone? I don't know if that's spelled right. If everything needed to be proved before it was believed, then humanity would have virtually nothing.

[Hrith]

I do not disagree with you, as long as you ackowledge that this is your opinion.
I cannot possibly believe that religion can bring anything positive, that is my view.