legit mag?

[Garm]

i was online last night and in F1 someone noticed my apsares and said he liked the colour orange on it (i think it's ugly) and asked me if he could dupe it. i said ok and the other person in the game started saying that i wasn't legit, and never should should say im legit and some other things(bad memory i have). all because someone duped my mag...
is it me or is my mag (the one i gave to the duper, the original one)legit? it's the glitch in the game wich duplicates it, right?

[Arislan]

The guy was simply whining to hear himself whine. The guy who duped it obviously isn't legit, but nothing suddenly flipped a bit stating that you aren't. Just don't go off having any Tsumikiri's or Prophets of Motav's duped and we'll be ok.

[Garm]

all my stuff i found or created with my own game hands (really hard using the hands i use right now to create a wep in thee game 0_o).

[Hrith]

Well then, you're AOK http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I have back-up dupes of all my weapons in case I lose any to FSOD, I won't lose hours of hunting/C-moding on behalf of ST's lame work...

[Butoden]

On 2004-03-03 07:19, Kef wrote:
Well then, you're AOK http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I have back-up dupes of all my weapons in case I lose any to FSOD, I won't lose hours of hunting/C-moding on behalf of ST's lame work...

OMG That's so smart! Maybe that's why ST will allow duping http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Superguppie]

It has been argued that when duping you can't tell which is the dupe and which is the original. So, both are considered illegit.
Also, allowing someone to dupe your (legit) items makes you an accessory to duping. So, the legit guy was right calling you illegit. And if he made a fuss over it that exceeded explaining this, that could also be considered wrong.
But don't come complaining about being called illegit, because you are.
Saying you're ok because it's the game that does the duping doesn't hold, as duping is the exploitation of the glitch, that is prohibited by ST.

[Hrith]

That's not quite true.
He hasn't altered his way of playing, nor has he exploited any glitch or revealed how to use one. Allowing someone that does to dupe your stuff is like giving a knife to somebody and being accused in his stead if anything happens, you are only responsible for yourself.

[Chris_c11t]

To be honest, I really don't think there's any point in losing sleep over this.
You're probably not properly 100% legit if you want to get really techy about it, however I've seen and heard of people doing far worse things and still calling themselves legit.

[AeraLure]

On 2004-03-03 08:08, Kef wrote:
That's not quite true.
He hasn't altered his way of playing, nor has he exploited any glitch or revealed how to use one. Allowing someone that does to dupe your stuff is like giving a knife to somebody and being accused in his stead if anything happens, you are only responsible for yourself.



The above example misleads because it doesnt take into account foreknowledge of the action to be taken, so I disagree. He gave the guy a mag knowing it was to be duped. Makes him illegit and anyone legit would then have the right to say so. Now all things being fair, its a choice made by each of us to be legit or not, so the other guy shouldnt have given Garm a hard time. Back ups as well are illegit in my book.


Although like Arislan said, its not a huge step outside the lines, but you are either legit or not...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AeraLure on 2004-03-03 08:27 ]</font>

[Hrith]

On 2004-03-03 08:25, AeraLure wrote:
Back ups as well are illegit in my book.
Well, lose an S-Rank Sword and a Yasminkov 2000H to FSOD and come back whining to me, paddawan ! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

I would not make back-up dupes if ST knew how to make servers.

Unlegit people, to me, are people who use stuff they have not found. Period. (there are limits to this statement, though)

Contributing to duping, for instance, does not make you unlegit, even if you are aware of it. Nothing is changed for you, others' gameplay does not affect yours.

[Armok]

On 2004-03-03 08:08, Kef wrote:
That's not quite true.
He hasn't altered his way of playing, nor has he exploited any glitch or revealed how to use one. Allowing someone that does to dupe your stuff is like giving a knife to somebody and being accused in his stead if anything happens, you are only responsible for yourself.



Your an acomplise (sp). If you know what they are going to do with it and you let them you can get an almost as long a prison sentence as the offender.

Oh and you mag is now a illegelimate

Illegitmate items are
Any found item that has been duped
Any dupe of an item
Any item haked in by use of hex editing
Any item that has %s altered by illegitimate Photon spheres or drops
Any item which has been grinded using illegit grinders
Any found item that has been swopped for a illegitmate item.

All these items go under the list of infairly obtained illegitimate wears. This list was constructd by the Legit board of elders.

Oh I use 3 duped god arms so aint not L33t legit saddow.

[AeraLure]

Important for me to add that its really just each person's opinion on the matter and all I was sharing. Has little to do with the game anymore in some ways as nothing has changed about it since maybe the 3rd week after v1s release. Its sort of an idyllic debate that we should try to keep out of actual play time online when possible.

The other guy really should not have given Garm a hard time, imho.

Best rules for the game that I am aware of are simply play, have fun, help others on your team have fun, dont make it bad for anyone else. Maybe beyond that: dont feed the Tollaws.

[VioletSkye]

I disagree with many of you. Superguppie made the argument that they are both illegitimate items, but the same argument can be made that they are both legit items. I'll try to explain without covering any taboo areas.

At the very moment you enter the dupe "phase" as I call it (meaning a specific window is up - you know the one http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif ) everything on that char is as it was before the phase. When you select a certain item to dupe, the game holds that specific offset location in memory. What the glitch does is allow you to place that item into another location without removing from memory the actual item code. Because the old location info is not destroyed, you are then allowed to drop that item on the ground and pick it up.

If you think about it in terms of game code, there is no "legit" version or "dupe" version". Both of those versions are the same version existing simultaneously in 2 different offset locations.

Basically the game itself dupes items everytime you drop, pickup or bank an item. Meaning that if an item was laying on the ground, it would exist in a specific offset location and when you pick it up that old location is wiped out and rewritten to a new location. Its the same with duping except that the glitch stops the game from deleting the old location, so that there is another instance of it in memory.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-03-03 09:22 ]</font>

[gallaugher]

Nice loophole.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-03-03 09:30, gallaugher wrote:
Nice loophole.


not a loophole, its just the reality of it.

[gallaugher]

Sorry, it's just getting a bit too technical for me. I understand what you were saying wasn't wrong, it just throws commen sense out the window.

[Zack_Morris]

I look at it like this:

If you want to be legit it's because you want the game to retain it's fun aspects. With things like fsod it's tough to retain these ideas. I personally wouldn't allow someone to dupe one of my items because I believe duping ruins the game, but i'm not going to look down on people who use it as a means of insurance against fsod. I just hope I never have to resort to it myself. The fun of this game is the hunt.

[gallaugher]

On 2004-03-03 08:37, Kef wrote:

Well, lose an S-Rank Sword and a Yasminkov 2000H to FSOD and come back whining to me, paddawan ! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif


Out of curiousity would losing a Yasminkov 9000M, Snow Queen & Frozen Shooter to FSOD count, in your book? I'm still not whining or duping backups.

[VioletSkye]

I'm not saying its ethical lol. I was just trying to explain that even if someone dupes, the items that occur as a result are still "real" items. I'm sure you've seen numerous posts like I have about whether or not duped items corrupt games and other equally stupid theories about dupes (ie. dupes don't have a shadow - which is one of the dumber arguments I've heard lol.)

I do however believe it is ok to make a backup of your items if you play online. I know many people will disagree and say that corruption is just a natural part of the game and that you have to accept that risk when you play online. They normally also go on to say that if items are lost, then too bad, you will just have to go searching for them again. I think that is total BS. Is it unethical to backup your information from your pc onto a DVD or CD in case something happens? Of course not. Corruption was not an "INTENDED" part of the game and in fact I've never, ever played an online game where corruption was so prevelant amongst players (thankfully I've never corrupted http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif) But regardless of it being unintended, the reality is, it DOES happen to people often so if that means breaking the TOS to help safeguard against that then so be it.

That said, people will then try to point out that I feel its ok to break EVERY rule which is simply moronic. These are the same people who can't discern between a game and the real world. The same people who can't make the distinction between acts that affect only the user and acts that have an affect on others. If you dupe an item for yourself to keep as a backup, it hurts noone. If you use that backup to trade for other items, then it does affect others that play because it upsets the trade economy (which btw is beyond repair at this point anyway.)

If I were to corrupt, I sure as hell would not want to spend all that time trying to play catchup to where I was. This speaks more about my personality though in terms of my patience level with things of this nature. I don't play nearly as much as I used to mainly because i get burned out quicker these days (it is a rather shallow game if you really stop and think about it) so I would not want to trudge through level after level rebuilding my char. For some people, its no big deal because they love training and hunting after rares so for them its still fun even if they have to start over. The problem lies in that some of those people fail to realize that not everyone feels the same way. Not everyone has the desire and/or patience to restart from scratch each time something happens to their char, so having a backup of their items to help them get back to where they were a little quicker is a great thing.

[PaleKid15]

On 2004-03-03 10:34, gallaugher wrote:


On 2004-03-03 08:37, Kef wrote:

Well, lose an S-Rank Sword and a Yasminkov 2000H to FSOD and come back whining to me, paddawan ! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif


Out of curiousity would losing a Yasminkov 9000M, Snow Queen & Frozen Shooter to FSOD count, in your book? I'm still not whining or duping backups.



Then you are not a wise human being and you have ridiculous morals and no common sense IM(C)0.

Duping is only wrong if it has a negative impact on another persons experiences. Garm, you could say that you are 99.9% legit, because you were an accessory to duping. But it probably won't have a huge impact on anyones playing experience. Try to ignore the plague of uber legits that hover above us all, acting superior to us to make themselves feel better.

[Hrith]

Note to Zack_Morris : do not take it personnally, because I mainly agree with your views.



On 2004-03-03 10:26, Zack_Morris wrote:
If you want to be legit it's because you want the game to retain it's fun aspects.
The fun of this game is the hunt.
but this is absolutely wrong !
Some people have fun using 1304 Mags, some people have fun using 300% weapons, some people have fun ARing their char to Lv 200 in 5 minutes, etc.

FUN IS SUBJECTIVE

And some of you with your haughty "legitness" forget a crucial point to PSO : Trade.
But VS is right it is beyond repair, I would still trade or accept gifts from people I really trust like Executor, Auracom, Xeno_M, Deus_Irae and some others.

Again like VS said, my point is not to be legit or not, it is to have fun with people I enjoy playing with and by no mean be a hindrance to their fun.

And again (thank you VioletSkye for covering all possible replies http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif ) it all comes to one's patience.
My total exp on my chars is 140 000 000, I could NOT start from scratch again.
And weapons like Yasha, Milla, Yas2k, PW are not weapons you find every day http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

So, I could go as far as to reply "no" Gallaugher, I have found 3 Yas9k, and FS is pipable, and I have so many PDs I sell them sometimes >_< my Yas2k from a Viridia Zele is rarer than those, but it's not a contest, if you have the courage and patience to hunt for those weapons anew, I don't.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kef on 2004-03-03 11:00 ]</font>

[gallaugher]

On 2004-03-03 10:49, PaleKid15 wrote:


On 2004-03-03 10:34, gallaugher wrote:
Out of curiousity would losing a Yasminkov 9000M, Snow Queen & Frozen Shooter to FSOD count, in your book? I'm still not whining or duping backups.


Then you are not a wise human being and you have ridiculous morals and no common sense IM(C)0.

Duping is only wrong if it has a negative impact on another persons experiences. Garm, you could say that you are 99.9% legit, because you were an accessory to duping. But it probably won't have a huge impact on anyones playing experience. Try to ignore the plague of uber legits that hover above us all, acting superior to us to make themselves feel better.



You have no idea what type of person I am. Honestly, what you said really bothered me. I'm not a wise human being? How the hell would you know based on a single post on this message board? Where the hell do you get off saying I have rediculous morals? Where did morals even come into play in my post? What you don't know is why I play the way I play. I do not base my enjoyment of this game on how uber my rares are. Maybe you do. Before you make claims like this again why don't you use that tissue between you ears & try to respect other members of this forum! I have never attacked another member of this forum. Yet what you posted was an attack towards me. A sublte flame? Perhaps.

[Hrith]

PaleKid's post was not a flame, and by no means personal, so simmer down.

There is little you can do about his opinion.

And like you said this is JUST a thread in a forum, so instead of yelling back, you should have just either ignored him, or reply in a more mature manner via PM.

[Malkavian]

More than if is legit or not, it is bad.
I find give dupes to people more harmful than have dupes for yourself.

But in this exact topic the things are a bit different. The guy that got the duped mag isn't or wasn't legit before because he asked for a dupe. Then all Garm did was be nice helping a non legit to have a dupe.

I still think is bad but nothing big. I would have gave an orange lv 5 mag and the instructions for raise an Apsaras to that guy http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Jae]

After taking a year off from PSO and finally returning last night to start Ep3, I can honestly say to this thread, "Who cares?"

Yes I was totally anal-legit before. Yes I still only use legit equipment. No I don't know how to dupe (anymore). I worked VERY hard to find some pretty obscure rares, which include a 20% Hit Needle, a Yas7k, Morning Glory, Red Mechs, etc.

But you know what? It gets very tiring always trying to define the line between legit and non-legit. Just have fun and play with people you like and just ignore those that you don't. Everyone will be a lot happier.

[Siris]

Garm, you may be legit but you are not promoting legit play if you willingly give your items to be duped. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif This is how the game gets ruined.

[RAmar_Monkey_Boy]

Garm, you may be legit but you are not promoting legit play if you willingly give your items to be duped. This is how the game gets ruined.
Exactley how did he ruin the game?
The guy asked if he could dupe it because he liked it and garm was being nice.
(Now when exactley in that paragraph did he ruin the game?)

[Superguppie]

On 2004-03-03 09:21, VioletSkye wrote:
I disagree with many of you. Superguppie made the argument that they are both illegitimate items, but the same argument can be made that they are both legit items.

Agreed. But since an item can't be legit and illegit at the same time, I have to put them in one category. Since both have been involved in the exploitation of a glitch and the situation with two items shouldn't exist, I call both illegit. Thus there is no legit original and illegit copy.

I also thought to respond to Kefs post, but others beat me to it. As said, knowingly providing the weapon to commit a crime makes you an accomplice.
On top of that, as both MAGs are involved in duping, Garm is a dupe-user, which is generaly considered illegit.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-03-04 00:47, Superguppie wrote:
Agreed. But since an item can't be legit and illegit at the same time, I have to put them in one category.

An item can indeed be legit and illegit at the same time due to the fact that its classification can be different according to different members. I say they are both legit, you say they aren't, so in a sense the 2 varying points of view coexist simultaneously (like the items themselves during duping lol) ergo by definition those items can be both.



Since both have been involved in the exploitation of a glitch and the situation with two items shouldn't exist, I call both illegit. Thus there is no legit original and illegit copy.

You used a key phrase there "shouldn't exist." However, irregardless of whether they "should exist" or not, the reality is they DO exist. And because they DO exist and are merely instances of the exact same item, then I would classify both as legit. People keep making arguments based on what "shouldn't be" without acknowledging "what is."



I also thought to respond to Kefs post, but others beat me to it. As said, knowingly providing the weapon to commit a crime makes you an accomplice.
On top of that, as both MAGs are involved in duping, Garm is a dupe-user, which is generaly considered illegit.

I would think that considering the "weapon" involved is just a mag (and not even a rare or hacked mag) then just how bad can the "crime" be? Certainly not bad enough to affect any individual person on any level in any way whatsoever. If anyone is losing sleep tonight because Garm let someone make a copy of his mag then they need some serious counseling http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-03-04 01:43 ]</font>

[Armok]

Ok i see the other view of 'Its the master copy so isnt a dupe the other copy is'

Personally anyone who has played more than 500hrs of PSO no longer gives a hoot if an item is a dupe or not unless it is ruining the game by doing obseen amounts of damage. There is 2 types of long term players.

Those that enjoy finding and using there own stuff.
and
Those who use some dupes because of circumstances (eg lost to reset or because they cannot get item any other way)

I personally use 3 duped god arm because:
A, i cannot be bothered to go back and waste 10+hrs in boring vh unsealed door runs
B, i don't see how it harms anyone i play with.
C, The weopons i have found are ineffective online without the extra ata boost
As I do more Skyly SoaB runs though i hope to replace them.

[Superguppie]

On 2004-03-04 01:42, VioletSkye wrote:
An item can indeed be legit and illegit at the same time due to the fact that its classification can be different according to different members. I say they are both legit, you say they aren't, so in a sense the 2 varying points of view coexist simultaneously (like the items themselves during duping lol) ergo by definition those items can be both.

An item can be one to me and the other to you. But to each of us it can't be both at the same time. That there is a difference in our classifications doesn't mean it is in both classes.



You used a key phrase there "shouldn't exist." However, irregardless of whether they "should exist" or not, the reality is they DO exist. And because they DO exist and are merely instances of the exact same item, then I would classify both as legit. People keep making arguments based on what "shouldn't be" without acknowledging "what is."

Uhh, I can make that more extreme: Killers shouldn't exist, yet they do. And because they do exist they are not criminals?
I do acknowledge the existence of dupes by having that word for them. They come about through exploitation of a glitch, that we agree to not exploit each time we go online in PSO.



I would think that considering the "weapon" involved is just a mag (and not even a rare or hacked mag) then just how bad can the "crime" be? Certainly not bad enough to affect any individual person on any level in any way whatsoever. If anyone is losing sleep tonight because Garm let someone make a copy of his mag then they need some serious counseling http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

How small the crime is doesn't influence the fact that it is a crime. And anyone committing a crime, or being an accomplice to it is a criminal.
I agree that anyone losing sleep over something this small is in need of therapy.



On 2004-03-04 03:22, Armok wrote:
Personally anyone who has played more than 500hrs of PSO no longer gives a hoot if an item is a dupe or not unless it is ruining the game by doing obseen amounts of damage.

Uhhh, not everyone. I have over 1500 and I DO care about my items being legit. The same goes for some of my friends that were already playing PSO on DC.

And I think this has gone into the realm of the Cheaters topic group...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Superguppie on 2004-03-04 05:05 ]</font>

[Armok]

Wow 1500hrs is pretty impressive almost half of my Dreamcast total that. My gc total is pathertically poor since I havent played much since college

Anyway did you read the whole post. You are clased in the ppl who like to use their only stuff as they feel they have earnt it. Do you aviod and hate cheaters I would like to think you are above that by now and would play with a duper.

[Hrith]

On 2004-03-04 05:03, Superguppie wrote:
They come about through exploitation of a glitch, that we agree to not exploit each time we go online in PSO.
Then dupe offline http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Seriously, you have raised the original debate much too high.
Like someone here is used to saying "this does not affect your gameplay".
In all probability, Garm will never meet that duper again, what has it changed for him ?

And the word "crime" does not suit duping at all.

[Hrith]

I have now more hours on GC than I had on DC http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif
3100 hours on GC http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif x2

[Armok]

I used to do a 4 hrs plus online a day on dc. When i moved out of home though I had to sharply cut that back to around 7hrs a week or so. Over summer I make quite a few hrs back but still.

[Superguppie]

On 2004-03-04 05:12, Kef wrote:
Then dupe offline http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

That still is exploitation of a glitch and taking the results of it online is still breaking your word. If you keep all duping and dupes offline, there are (as far as I can see) no negative effects to other players, so I have no problem at all with that.



And the word "crime" does not suit duping at all.

If you think of crime as breaking a law that was made by a government and stuff like that, then duping isn't a crime. If you think of crime as breaking a local law, then it is. The local law we are talking about is called the ToS. Upside to this law is that everyone going online at least says "I agree" to it, rather than having it imposed without agreement. The fact that it isn't enforced does not make it less of a law, and violating it less a crime.



On 2004-03-04 05:12, Armok wrote:
Anyway did you read the whole post. You are clased in the ppl who like to use their only stuff as they feel they have earnt it. Do you aviod and hate cheaters I would like to think you are above that by now and would play with a duper.

Yes I have. I didn't see the need to comment on any of the other points.
Not all the stuff I have I found myself. Some of it was found by friends, with whom I share much of the finds. And I guess it is about earning a bit, although that's not all. (Cheating can harm others fun, even without the intent, or misbehavior. And I don't want to harm others fun, so I don't cheat.)
I don't really avoid or even hate cheaters. But when there is a debate on cheating, I do try to get my point across. One of my regular friends does cheat, and isn't shy about it. As long as we have fun, that's ok. And he is aware of the objections I have to cheating and tries to keep the negatove effects out of my way.

[Hrith]

On 2004-03-04 06:56, Superguppie wrote:


On 2004-03-04 05:12, Kef wrote:
Then dupe offline http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

That still is exploitation of a glitch and taking the results of it online is still breaking your word. If you keep all duping and dupes offline, there are (as far as I can see) no negative effects to other players, so I have no problem at all with that.
Following that flawed logic gives that example :

You are playing with a guy, you really enjoy playing with him, he's great, etc.
But then he says "that weapon I'm using is not legit"
And you leave thinking "what a bad player"

Stupid, heh ?


And as far as law is concerned a violation of the ToS is called an "offence" not a "crime".

[Orange_kid]

Well, I think everyone is getting a little too deep, it seems like everyone is splitting hairs. The whole argument isn't whether it's technically cheating or not, but it's a question of if Garm was rightfully called an illegit. That however, is something you have to decide for yourself. The "guidelines" of being legit are not clearly defined, and therefore up to the individual to distinguish. Oftentimes however, human justification for doing something wrong is to say "it's ok", or "everyone does it anyway, so I can't be faulted for it". Don't fall into that trap.

On a side note, IT'S A GAME!! Play it how YOU want to, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If someone calls you something you don't like, you have to get over it (or sue them, that seems to be all the rage these days). I like to think of myself as "legit", because I have EARNED everything, but I don't bash others for how they play a game. That's because the legit road should be one of self-gratification. Not a road of superiority.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Orange_kid on 2004-03-04 09:38 ]</font>

[KingChaos]

Why Would You Care What He Thinks, If You Know Your Legit Thats All You Should Care About

[Siris]

On 2004-03-03 17:42, RAmar_Monkey_Boy wrote:

Garm, you may be legit but you are not promoting legit play if you willingly give your items to be duped. This is how the game gets ruined.
Exactley how did he ruin the game?
The guy asked if he could dupe it because he liked it and garm was being nice.
(Now when exactley in that paragraph did he ruin the game?)



Well, in that paragraph, where the game gets ruined is when the person takes a legit item to be duped for someone elses use. It's not that hard to understand really. I took a little trip to X-boxs Apatite block today because I was bored and saw everyone running around with their J-swords and Dark Flows...doing 800 damage at level 40 etc. It's rather pathetic really. The promotion of duping does tend to ruin the game by devaluing the items since the "rares" become more common than Dimates, but hey that's ok it separates those who know how to play and those who can't get through the game without their Al Rappys and dupes. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif MO: If the guy liked the mag Garm should have told him how to make one...or helped him along with one, not duped it.

[Zack_Morris]

I agree fun is subjective, but I would also be having fun with those types of weapons if they were meant to be in the game and I earned them myself. Duping was not meant to be, thus shouldn't be happening. I'm going to have fun finding and using great gear when I obtain it.

I will play with people who dupe, I just choose not to do it myself. I'm not high and mighty about it.

[PaleKid15]

On 2004-03-04 09:57, Siris wrote:


On 2004-03-03 17:42, RAmar_Monkey_Boy wrote:

Garm, you may be legit but you are not promoting legit play if you willingly give your items to be duped. This is how the game gets ruined.
Exactley how did he ruin the game?
The guy asked if he could dupe it because he liked it and garm was being nice.
(Now when exactley in that paragraph did he ruin the game?)



Well, in that paragraph, where the game gets ruined is when the person takes a legit item to be duped for someone elses use. It's not that hard to understand really. I took a little trip to X-boxs Apatite block today because I was bored and saw everyone running around with their J-swords and Dark Flows...doing 800 damage at level 40 etc. It's rather pathetic really. The promotion of duping does tend to ruin the game by devaluing the items since the "rares" become more common than Dimates, but hey that's ok it separates those who know how to play and those who can't get through the game without their Al Rappys and dupes. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif MO: If the guy liked the mag Garm should have told him how to make one...or helped him along with one, not duped it.



Whoa... slow down. TJ swords are a little different than normal mags. ALOT of people "tweak" thier characters at low levels to speed the path to ultimate (by giving them a 200 mag FE). I don't see that ruining the game. If the person with a dupe wanted to "ruin the game", they'd max-stat. Duping a lvl.200 mag is not that big of a deal. Everyone needs to calm down, and start posting in cheaters (why hasn't this been moved there already?).


BTW-anyone offended by other post can pm me. I'd be happy to explain what I meant.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-03-04 05:03, Superguppie wrote:
An item can be one to me and the other to you. But to each of us it can't be both at the same time. That there is a difference in our classifications doesn't mean it is in both classes.

If doesn't have to be both to us. You missed the point, that being that classification is often a relative term. The fact is that something can be many things to many different people. It doesn't have to be everything to everyone in order to be classified as all those things. Abd btw, there are an inifinite number of instances where something can be both good and bad at the same time.



Uhh, I can make that more extreme: Killers shouldn't exist, yet they do. And because they do exist they are not criminals?
I do acknowledge the existence of dupes by having that word for them. They come about through exploitation of a glitch, that we agree to not exploit each time we go online in PSO.

At what point did anyone say that killers aren't criminals. This is just another case of your anaologies going way beyond what is being discussed. The fact that you even compare them is ridiculous. Your anaology also fails to work on another level. I was saying that dupes DO exist but I wasn't saying that since they DO exist that they aren't breaking the TOS (which I personally could not care less about.) My acknowledgment of their existence was neither a positive nor negative remark. So saying that I would then think killers aren't criminals is pointless and has nothing to do with my stance. What about soldiers btw? They kill, so would they neccessarily be considered criminals? Again its relative. If they are fighting to preserve their rights and freedoms then I would say they are not criminals. If they are invading areas simply for their own gain then I would say they are.



How small the crime is doesn't influence the fact that it is a crime. And anyone committing a crime, or being an accomplice to it is a criminal.
I agree that anyone losing sleep over something this small is in need of therapy.

Uhhh, of course not. Thats like saying that no matter how tall a tree is does not influence the fact that it is a tree lol. BTW you need to lose the term criminal. Breaking the TOS is not a "crime" in legal terms.
CRIMINAL:
1. Of, involving, or having the nature of crime: criminal abuse.
2. Relating to the administration of penal law.

I can assure you duping does not fall under penal law http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

In the end, all I can say is that I don't give a rat's ass if Garm or anyone else was duping items. I don't care one iota who I play a game with as long as they are cool and let everyone get exp. If they wanna run around with a Lime Pushan and BKB, more power to them.

[Superguppie]

On 2004-03-04 10:26, VioletSkye wrote:
If doesn't have to be both to us. You missed the point, that being that classification is often a relative term. The fact is that something can be many things to many different people. It doesn't have to be everything to everyone in order to be classified as all those things. Abd btw, there are an inifinite number of instances where something can be both good and bad at the same time.

Ok, but the question was, whether his duped MAG was legit. And my answer is it isn't. I could think of a situation where one is and the other isn't. But since there is no way to make out which is the original and which is the copy, both are at least suspect, and unacceptable to me. So, I can imagine that legit player making a remark about that.







You used a key phrase there "shouldn't exist." However, irregardless of whether they "should exist" or not, the reality is they DO exist. And because they DO exist and are merely instances of the exact same item, then I would classify both as legit. People keep making arguments based on what "shouldn't be" without acknowledging "what is."

Uhh, I can make that more extreme: Killers shouldn't exist, yet they do. And because they do exist they are not criminals?
I do acknowledge the existence of dupes by having that word for them. They come about through exploitation of a glitch, that we agree to not exploit each time we go online in PSO.

At what point did anyone say that killers aren't criminals. This is just another case of your anaologies going way beyond what is being discussed. The fact that you even compare them is ridiculous.

Noone said that. I was extrapolating. I quoted your original phrase again to support this. You say that they DO exist and are instances of the same item. And that would classify both as legit. The extrapolation is that killers DO exist and are human beings. So, that makes what they did ok?
I know it's extreme. I even stated that. But the point remains. You can't have 2 times the same item and say both are legit.



Your anaology also fails to work on another level. I was saying that dupes DO exist but I wasn't saying that since they DO exist that they aren't breaking the TOS (which I personally could not care less about.)

Well, then by what defintion of legit is it that you can say that those items violating the ToS can be called legit?



What about soldiers btw? They kill, so would they neccessarily be considered criminals? Again its relative. If they are fighting to preserve their rights and freedoms then I would say they are not criminals. If they are invading areas simply for their own gain then I would say they are.

Anyone who kills is a killer. I can imagine situations where there is an excuse for it, but I keep thinking of it as wrong. So, any soldier who kills is a criminal, as is the politician that declares war. If the excuse is good enough there may not be a prosecution.



Breaking the TOS is not a "crime" in legal terms.
...I can assure you duping does not fall under penal law http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

To an IRL law it may not be a crime. In PSO, the ToS is law. In terms of that law, it is a crime. But if people feel uncomfortable with that term, I'll look for a better one.



In the end, all I can say is that I don't give a rat's ass if Garm or anyone else was duping items. I don't care one iota who I play a game with as long as they are cool and let everyone get exp. If they wanna run around with a Lime Pushan and BKB, more power to them.

If that were all the effects, I would agree.
Howerver, as stated earlier, the question was about the MAG being legit. And I argued it isn't, and the legit guy saying so was right about that.

[gallaugher]

On 2004-03-05 04:37, Superguppie wrote:

Anyone who kills is a killer. I can imagine situations where there is an excuse for it, but I keep thinking of it as wrong. So, any soldier who kills is a criminal, as is the politician that declares war. If the excuse is good enough there may not be a prosecution.



Whoah! You can't be serious? Where are you from? Oh, the Netherlands. Let's take another one of your extreme examples: You're at home & a burglar comes into your house. Your roommate is a Police Officer, just got off work & is in his room. You see the burglar & he has a gun. You scream. Just as he points the gun to your head & says "Goodbye" your roommate comes in & shoots the burglar in the chest. He dies. Your roommate, a Police Officer, was doing his job upholding the law & saved your life. Too bad he's now a criminal.

[Zarode]

Now this is offtopic of the subject you guys are talking about, but I dupe, but I don't abuse...

Duping is taking advantage of a glitch...
Which I do. I only use it for Addslots, which are rare as heck. I don't like how people abuse it. Fine your own weps, get your own stuff, heck, I fine so many Grinders, I don't need to dupe to get the top grind on my weapons. It is really sad...what people will do to this game...

[Superguppie]

Looks like situation with a good excuse. So, no prosecution. Still, it is a kill, and that's not good. Since there are people who have a problem with the use of the word criminal, I guess using that word for this friend would be wrong, so I won't call him that. But still, it would change my perception of this friend. Even despite that I know it is part of his job, and the excuse was good.

Oh, and it's not that I'm from the Netherlands, I'm a pacifist, so all violence is objectional. That's a reason I like video games: Violence without actual violence, and a relatively harmless way to deal with the the violent impulses that are there.



On 2004-03-05 07:09, Zarode wrote:
I only use it for Addslots, which are rare as heck.

Addslots rare???? Uhhh, not to me. (My Redria finds'em regularly on the lower difficulties) Just like there are people that find Photon Drops by the dozens. I think the idea is to go trade your surplus for someone elses surplus.



heck, I fine so many Grinders, I don't need to dupe to get the top grind on my weapons.

See, you have a surplus. Recently there was someone in the trade group asking for grinders. Maybe you can trade Addslots with him...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Superguppie on 2004-03-05 07:16 ]</font>

[Zarode]

And I admit that I dupe, which is wrong...

[edit]

Really, I have ruined the fun of looking for Addslots XD Sorta...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zarode on 2004-03-05 07:12 ]</font>

[gallaugher]

This is totally off topic. Personally, non-violence is desirable but getting your head blown off is more undesirable.

[Superguppie]

Very off-topic by now...
And when having to choose between two bad things, I don't stop calling the bad thing I chose bad, just because it kept the other (presumably even worse) thing from me. I know that's a personal thing, but that's the way it is for me...

[Zarode]

On 2004-03-05 07:10, Superguppie wrote:
Looks like situation with a good excuse. So, no prosecution. Still, it is a kill, and that's not good. Since there are people who have a problem with the use of the word criminal, I guess using that word for this friend would be wrong, so I won't call him that. But still, it would change my perception of this friend. Even despite that I know it is part of his job, and the excuse was good.

Oh, and it's not that I'm from the Netherlands, I'm a pacifist, so all violence is objectional. That's a reason I like video games: Violence without actual violence, and a relatively harmless way to deal with the the violent impulses that are there.



On 2004-03-05 07:09, Zarode wrote:
I only use it for Addslots, which are rare as heck.

Addslots rare???? Uhhh, not to me. (My Redria finds'em regularly on the lower difficulties) Just like there are people that find Photon Drops by the dozens. I think the idea is to go trade your surplus for someone elses surplus.



heck, I fine so many Grinders, I don't need to dupe to get the top grind on my weapons.

See, you have a surplus. Recently there was someone in the trade group asking for grinders. Maybe you can trade Addslots with him...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Superguppie on 2004-03-05 07:16 ]</font>


I cannot go online yet...I need to buy the Broadband thingy...sucks for me...

[BOmar]

When you finally get it, Paginni (or however you spell it) will be your best friend if you want to stop duping add/slots http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

IMO, both mags are now illegit, but I would much rather the duper used an Apsaras than one of those 1304 mags! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[edit: ugh! I just realised the age of this thread. Sorry if it's a bump, I got here from a search and forgot to check >.<]


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BOmar on 2004-03-29 07:03 ]</font>

[goku4ever]

On 2004-03-03 08:37, Kef wrote:

Unlegit people, to me, are people who use stuff they have not found. Period.


Wot about trading?

if this has already been mentioned then soz but i aint got time to read the whole thread

[Hrith]

if you do not have time to read all thread, then make another, for this topic does not really belong to that forum.

I'd say if you trade with someone that you are certain is legit, then there is no prob, but those people are scarce.