OK,, teams of 2 Arkz are lame

[Shimarisu]

I've come to the opinion that only losers do this. I don't blame the newbies who are currently doing it, they don't know. But please people, DON'T make identical tailored Arkz decks with loads of 1 point blockers and 3 area stat raising cards per deck, it's pathetic and unfair. You have the MASSIVE opportunity, really, the game is unbalanced in terms of dual Arkz teams. Especially if your opponents are both hunters. I swear to god, MOST my losses are against two Arkz decks. THIS deck in particular is absolutly pathetic, and as bad as pouilly deck BEFORE it got patched:

3x Sinow Beat
3x Canabin
3x Recon
3x Mine Brightness
3x machine guard
+ mix and match other machine cards.

This deck is LITERALLY unbeatable. Well I never won against it, and Malkavian says he also has not. Doubling that up on a team tourney is a low and dirty thing to do, as bad as cheating. If you want to know who to avoid in order not to fight this deck, NEVER fight the God ranked player Billie Joe, he uses that and he used that and nothing but Pouilly deck before. He says he's good at the game too, but he's pathetic. If you use this deck you are pathetic. If you see ANYBODY with this deck, walk up to them and commit suicide. Vocalise your disgust. Call them names, cuss them out, and write their names down in a notepad of people to avoid forever.

- Shimarisu

[Saiffy]

Ouch, i got the game yesterday and i know better then that

[Cowboy]

Whats a pouilly deck?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tracon on 2004-03-07 21:15 ]</font>

[AzureBlaze]

I think I fought something close to this the other day. (but it was done by a low lvl guy, not Billy Joe) I lost to it, but I'm not sure I understand.

The dude put out 3 recons first. I killed all the recons, but when there was 1 left he put out a Sinow Red and made everything turn a funny color by doing "Mines Brightness" I said 'what's that do?' and they just said 'makes you die better'.

Then they did another card with a picture of rainbow cards on it, and something else that raised the ATP of the Sinow every turn? And put out a dubchic which I couldn't kill because I kept doing 2 damage and it had 3 hp which means it'll fully regenerate every time. (I was Guykild)

It was very frusterating because the Sinow was soooo strong, and I couldn't get rid of the dubchic (Sinow also regenerates 1hp every time) I was also mad because they wouldn't tell me what any of the 'assist' (I guess) cards were for. Also, I don't like very experienced spectators who watch the fight and mail tips to whoever is going vs. me so that I lose.

Is this what you were talking about?

[marcus_com]

A little off-topic tip for AzureBlaze. Pressing Z in battle and moving cursor enables you to look at all cards on the field. And as you probably know, pressing "R" shows info about cards. So you really dont have to ask what a card does, instead just read the description.

[HairyGoat]

I didn't know about pressing Z, thanks. I just went to start, cards, battle history and looked it up

[Armok]

Is the anti Andriod card not a good counter against this from what I've read it would really screw this deck over

Anyway if I'm no help sorry though, I feel it is your duty Shimarisu to find a specialised counter deck to this one. Then go on to beat Billie Joe in spectacular fashion.

All cheap win losers must pay.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Armok on 2004-03-08 05:59 ]</font>

[AppieDPC]

On 2004-03-08 05:54, Armok wrote:
Is the anti Andriod card not a good counter against this from what I've read it would really screw this deck over

Anyway if I'm no help sorry though, I feel it is your duty Shimarisu to find a specialised counter deck to this one. Then go on to beat Billie Joe in spectacular fashion.

All cheap win losers must pay.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Armok on 2004-03-08 05:59 ]</font>

First things that come to my mind:
-Fly
-Virus
-Rati

But even with those cards a double team of Arkz with those decks are hard to beat, but I wouldn't call it impossible (yet anyway)

[Jools]

I agree, surely virus cards are going to tear this deck apart?

Jools

[MRBEN]

Indeed. Just be careful not to equip low cost cards, as you dont want to screw yourself over.

[Malkavian]

Virus, that Tornado that kills under 4 hp stuff are 3&4 cost. Not like you can equip something and do it every turn. But they yes!!! they can put 2-3 enemies, some assist for ap raise and attack each turn. Except if both get really bad dice.
The only way is to use same deck and be more lucky.

Yesterday I fought against that deck again in 2 vs. 1st turn I go and do rafoie killing all enemies. Next turn they placed 2 rekons, 1 sinow And 2 Mix&Match. Only 4 cost overall since they already had a sinow behind and it has free cost if 1 already in field. And then they only need 3 ATK more to attack one of us 2 times with recon and the other 2 times with recon and 1 with sinow. Considering we only equipped 1 item to kill them in 1st turn we got severely hurt. next turn I didnt equip, didnt want to make that thing last more. I did Rabarta but next turn they set all enemies again...

And any def can help it. These decks do like 3 to 7 attacks each turn, recon attacks to both players, of 5-10 damage.

Well territory + Assist lesses could really help. But im not gonna do a deck specifically for cheap, bad players. Good players don't use these decks.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Malkavian on 2004-03-08 08:34 ]</font>

[Lit]

On 2004-03-07 20:25, Shimarisu wrote:

3x Sinow Beat
3x Canabin
3x Recon
3x Mine Brightness
3x machine guard
+ mix and match other machine cards.

>>>>>DONT FORGET GILLCHICH GILLCHICH<<<<<<<< heh

[decswxaqz]

What about territory?

Is there anything that can't be considered cheap? We all now have to play all Hunters, or 1 hunter & 1 arkz vs the same. We can't play Guykild with high HP cards or EXP gaining weapons/mags (reduced since last update). 1 point spammers and overpowerfully high cost cards shouldn't be played. Using the assist card that doesn't kill the cards that turn (can't remember name) and playing a barrier.

How should we play?


EDIT: The ones playing this sort of deck are probably going to be Japanese as it'll take a while for a US player to get that sort of setup.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: decswxaqz on 2004-03-08 12:14 ]</font>

[Malkavian]

Decsxwaqz, that deck is REALLY cheap. Most good players that are online know about it since december/january. And they don't use it because is abusive. I had one and deleted it. So far there has been only 2 decks that have reached this really bad status in Ep3. First it was the pouilly slime before patched and noe this. There are some other that are a bit cheap but they can't be blamed.

[decswxaqz]

But when do you start to say a deck is cheap/lame? When they beat you with it? When you get beaten by it lots of times? Isn't the idea in this much more competitive game to actually win? And people are doing that. In ep 1&2, the idea was to quest together and find rares. In this game, you fight against each other with very little (in comparision) team work.

It looks like you'll have to resort to the locked games/quiet ships habit, that was ep 1&2 if you want to win a tournament.

[SolRiver]

Isnt this the same machine deck that dengeki champ Kain won with?

So in a way he is like Ring? @_@

[Link00seven]

sigh...sega needs to do some major balancing...

[Ether]

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

[cenote]

I have one thought. If you can get these card legitly then why not use them? They got them and why not use them. You get your cards and you don't use sabers or boomas a lot you have good cards in your deck too. And no deck can't be beat every one has a disadvantage and some it is obvious others like this deck need more thought. Play out a battle in your head or something think what possible cards he/she has and try to beat them. After all this is a strategy game. Just some thoughts though...

[LollipopLolita]

you can play with style, or you can play with dignity, or you can play cheaply just to win. the choice is personal and up to everyone. though if you play right, you would have more friends. if you play cheaply, people will hate you. and maybe you don't care since you have fun winning all the time at all costs. but some people do, and some people have enough skill to win with a normal deck. it all depends on the person.

[SolRiver]

and in a way everyone got what they wanted. people who prefer morale got their popularity. people seek for power got their wining rate. people who hate unfair match got their right to flame people who seek for pure power =/

Online game work just like real world... no war is fair (if it is, no one would win).

But then again, having no chance of winning just because you choose not to do bad things... is really not rewarding, I would probably get annoy too.

[Aunt_Betty]

Wow that IS cheap.You mind as well take you deck and destroy it (not litterly.)

[Para]

Im assuming this deck was inspired by Kain from the Dengeki Cup. Probably many people saw it and decided to make a similar deck.

[phArcotiX]

my friend was helping me make one but I never finished. I wasn't planning on using it often,if ever, anyways. just wanted something new



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: phArcotiX on 2004-03-08 20:50 ]</font>

[AUTO_]

On 2004-03-08 15:13, LollipopLolita wrote:
if you play cheaply, people will hate you. and maybe you don't care since you have fun winning all the time at all costs.



Errr...people who can "perform" are sought after by beady-eyed noobies; regardless if they use "cheap" methods to win or are complete jackholes.

[Saladwood]

Yea but part of Lolli's point is how those newbies will act after accordingly. But those people don't care. Though hey they may or may not believe in karma

[Shimarisu]

Well, update. Teams of 2 Arkz are still lame. I took a newbie into a tourney today, faced off against a level 32 and a level 2. They both used Arkz - bad sign already. Then they proceeded to play dice +1, and next round the LEVEL TWO player brought out Dark Belra. HMM. SOMEBODY's been giving their friend cards, eh? Anyway, my deck was not tailored in this way to the newbie's deck. I managed to win, JUST. Only via immortality cards. But jesus, they fought dirty. We won on time in the end. I told them teams of 2 Arkz were lame, and they responded "You used 2 hunters, that is lame too." Yeah. RIIIIIGHT.

- Shimarisu

[marcus_com]

Haha, Shimarisu, I met them yesterday to I think. Played with Stefan, first move and they got out both Belras. However, they weren't the only ones rolling high Dice on first move. I managed to freeze both belras immideatley. Thus, the game was pretty much over for the, cause we had pretty much a clean shot at one of the arkz a few moves cause of this. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Mixfortune]

The only thing I'm worried about is if the decks I make would be considered cheap. I'm most likely not at that point yet, as I'm only level 1/18, but is there some guidelines I could keep in mind to avoid making a potentially cheap deck? I'd rather have fun playing a true match than to win only because my deck just so happened to be exploiting something I wasn't aware of.

But if the Pouilly thing is "fixed", is the only worry now the twin Arkz with low cost machine decks, and/or twin Arkz in general? I wouldn't want to be labelled as a cheap player inadvertantly... and I can't really go online with my offline card, so I'd have to make a character on a new card for online. Would it be considered cheap of me to have a level 1/1 character using the cards I have gotten from my level 1/18 character, or is that not really that big of a difference?

[LeRoy_G]

never change a winning team!

*runsforcover*

[Castoth]

On 2004-03-09 00:25, Shimarisu wrote:
Well, update. Teams of 2 Arkz are still lame. I took a newbie into a tourney today, faced off against a level 32 and a level 2. They both used Arkz - bad sign already. Then they proceeded to play dice +1, and next round the LEVEL TWO player brought out Dark Belra. HMM. SOMEBODY's been giving their friend cards, eh? Anyway, my deck was not tailored in this way to the newbie's deck. I managed to win, JUST. Only via immortality cards. But jesus, they fought dirty. We won on time in the end. I told them teams of 2 Arkz were lame, and they responded "You used 2 hunters, that is lame too." Yeah. RIIIIIGHT.

- Shimarisu



A friend found a Dark Belra offline already so not like a high online CLevel is the only determination for what cards they might have. For all anyone knows, that person could have beaten both offline story modes already. Heck, I'm nearing the end of the Hunter story arc and have found a few great cards already.

[Malkavian]

Kain didn't popularize this deck. Maybe gave it a revival. I saw it in December already. The decks are a bit like fashion. Some weeks you see a deck a lot and then they start to be less used because many people made decks for counter them or because they are that cheap that ruin the game and aren't fun anymore.

About just 2 arkz, I don't think they are cheap. The problem Shimarisu must be finding is that 2 tailored decks have obviously more chance to win than just 2 separate decks. I played many 2 hunters games and the only 2 things I found hard to beat is the Machine decks and in 15 minutes rule when arkz block with low costers. They attack with low costers like 5 or 6 attacks per turn consuming a lot of time. And in 15 minutes we end playing 8-10 turns, that is 4-5 turns per team. No way in that time the Hunters can break the enemis barricades and hurt the Arkz.

[Malkavian]

On 2004-03-08 14:25, Ether wrote:
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm


I read it and found this


It’s extreme examples like this that even amongst the top players, and even something that isn’t a bug, but was put in on purpose by the game designers, the community as a whole has unanimously decided to make the rule: “don’t play Akuma in serious matches.”

[decswxaqz]

Isn't the idea of the game to work together, and what better way than to make decks that suppliment each other? Two Hunters could (and should) make decks that are all one kind of sword/gun/cane.

Like Orlando who gets half the AP of the number of swords on the field. On his own, he is pretty useless. But fight with another Orlando and he becomes quite strong. Add to that any card which gives AP Rise to that type of card and he becomes really strong.

Now think of Arkz decks. Migium and Hidoom. Useless unless you have a field full of them. Death/Dark gunners too. ST added these cards for a reason. The ones that take an AP/TP rise from other cards are weak on their own for a purpose. Play in a team and they become strong.

Isn't it just a stratergy to take full advantage off? Isn't it just a way of showing that they work together as a team?

[Megadoomer]

The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of ?honor? or of ?cheapness.? The game only knows winning and losing.

I agree with this but... I also think that it would be dumb to force everyone to make the same deck just so they have a fighting chance, but then theres also the fact that its possible to find a way to defeat this deck as well. Perhaps the tactic would be so good that no one would want to even use the machine deck anymore and so we could all go back to having different decks for awhile then something else would come up.

I like this topic I dont think I have ever posted a message this long before. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Edit: spelling

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Megadoomer on 2004-03-09 08:00 ]</font>

[MightyMule]

I am new to PSO Episode III (Level 1 online, 7 offline) so I really can't comment on the "cheap decks" but I fail to see how 2 Ark decks is lame. What I am noticing is that setting the rules to these odd settings (ex 15 minute battle limit) is in fact what CAN(not always) be lame. By changing the settings they could be catering to their decks which I would agree makes things difficult and unfair.


Also my online character name is Weasel (Ramar). I just got online last night and was hanging on Antares 8. I must say it was a good group of people playing there. Everyone was very friendly (and not abusing those stupid sounds) and good sportsmanship in every game. Losers didn't complain and winners were gracious. I look forward to playing with all of you http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Ruby-chan]

First of all I think it's a good thing that ST is able to adjust the balance in the game, since really unbalanced combinations eventually turn up in any card game, hence many card games have certain cards banned or restricted for tournament play.

(And that person who posted about "Playing to win" is what happens when you exploit bugs or abuse something. I understand the article, but when it comes to blatant cheating, once you go that far there's lots of other unethical things you can justify by his mentality, such as lying, stealing, assault, and murder.)

Although honestly if a deck is very effective they're going to use it, that is the point of the game. If ST thinks it's overpowered than it will be adjusted.

However I do think it's a failing of the game that doesn't allow the act and move phases to swaped, since it makes it very easy to eternally trap a hunter with weak creatures.

[Jools]

There are flight cards in the game to deal with that problem.

Jools

[Shimarisu]

Heh, you beat Ring because actually, he sucks. See how he went out in the first round of Dengeki. Any player who resorts to cheap decks fundamentally sucks at the game. Unless they invented the deck. Then they are pardoned, but if they continue to use it once they realise how unfair it is, that's as bad as cheating.

- Shimarisu

[BogusKun]

On 2004-03-07 21:25, AzureBlaze wrote:
I think I fought something close to this the other day. (but it was done by a low lvl guy, not Billy Joe) I lost to it, but I'm not sure I understand.

The dude put out 3 recons first. I killed all the recons, but when there was 1 left he put out a Sinow Red and made everything turn a funny color by doing "Mines Brightness" I said 'what's that do?' and they just said 'makes you die better'.

Then they did another card with a picture of rainbow cards on it, and something else that raised the ATP of the Sinow every turn? And put out a dubchic which I couldn't kill because I kept doing 2 damage and it had 3 hp which means it'll fully regenerate every time. (I was Guykild)

It was very frusterating because the Sinow was soooo strong, and I couldn't get rid of the dubchic (Sinow also regenerates 1hp every time) I was also mad because they wouldn't tell me what any of the 'assist' (I guess) cards were for. Also, I don't like very experienced spectators who watch the fight and mail tips to whoever is going vs. me so that I lose.

Is this what you were talking about?



I fought someone just like that... xXArkzManXx/xXDarkManXx

[Ruby-chan]

On 2004-03-11 08:40, Jools wrote:
There are flight cards in the game to deal with that problem.

Jools



True, but I don't have one. Think if I mail a MTG Flight card to ST they'll give me a PSO3 one for it?

[Malkavian]

About the Anti MC deck...
Of course is possible to make one. But it needs to be pretty specific. Making it a bit pointless against other types of decks. of course if I see that MC decks start to appear everywhere I won't doubt more and play with a counter MC deck. But for now I prefer to blame it and make it used only by noobs until they bore themselves. Very few good ranked JP players use it anymore, that's the way to go.