Concerning Weapon speeds...

[JGaff]

This might seem stupid to some people, but It is a valid question, and Is something I am interested in Knowing, and seeing as I only play My cube on Friday Afternoon --> Sunday Afternoon unless it's a day off our vacation.

Now, the Question...

Hypothetically, I have a Sword type weapon, like Chain Sawd. I also have a paired sword, Like the Yamato. In 3 weak attacks (The combo)the Chain sawd goes through it fairly slowly, but evenly. The paired sword hit quickly at first, but slow down. My question is this, Are the speed of the combos the same, or is one faster/Slower than the other?

This would be nice to know, seeing as bosses like Dark Falz can only be hit in one place (Like on his final form), and using the better weapon would be an advantage.

Thanks for the assistance. I'd really appreciate if someone didn't link to a guide, or make an assertion without any back up. All I want a paragraph with a quick explanation on how that answer was achieved (You can even log on and try it out, that would be good)

[LoreSeeker]

Whenever I play in those situations, I usually like to go with double weapons. The total animation time for using something like a Yamato is probably a little bit longer than Chain Sawd, but it attacks more times, thus making it worthwhile. The decrease in damage is negated by how much you can hit with it.

If at all possible, however, I would scrap swords and twin weapons and go with mechguns. They hit even more, and you don't have to get up so close to the enemy to kill them.

[Hrith]

On 2004-04-26 14:48, LoreSeeker wrote:
Whenever I play in those situations, I usually like to go with double weapons. The total animation time for using something like a Yamato is probably a little bit longer than Chain Sawd, but it attacks more times, thus making it worthwhile. The decrease in damage is negated by how much you can hit with it.
you cannot compare a weapon that hits one monster at a time to a weapon that hits several targets.


If at all possible, however, I would scrap swords and twin weapons and go with mechguns. They hit even more, and you don't have to get up so close to the enemy to kill them.
That completely ruins the point of being a hunter, now, does it ?

[Cc08]

you cannot compare a weapon that hits one monster at a time to a weapon that hits several targets. Well said, those 2 types of weapons are totally different and do different things.

[JGaff]

Well, the reason I asked was I was going for a Yasha ( I have the Sange) and I wanted to make the paired sword Sange & Yasha (and grind it to 30)

I wanted to know if I was attacking a Singular enemy like Dark Falz's last form on Hard-Ultimate ( Where you can only strike one target anyways. In this situation, i wanted to know whether to use A sword (in this case, Chain Sawd) as to a possible sword Like Sange and Yasha which is stronger, and if it attacks faster, would be an advantage (and sexy, and not to mention a real legit trophy.

As for using Mech's, I prefer a supressed gun because of the range and accuracy, and the fact that none of my 4 section Id's really get a Rare one, and getting one legitly with hit% would be a real pain in the ass.

I'm seeing some good replies. If someone could Grab a sword and a paired sword and test out their attack speeds (at the same time would be best if the difference would be Slim), that would be awesome.

Obviously, I'd use a sword on Ultimate enemies that buch up, that's just common sense. But If i'm battling a boss, Sange and Yasha could be a real asset (if the attack speed is good and the power is good, which it is)

*Carry on*

[Gaffero]

Well, I believe Jgaff is asking you to compare the two weapons is the SPEED VS.POWER

Chainsawd may have higher ATP, but will swing slower and less frequently than a Yamato. The Yamato has lower ATP, but has a longer combo (thus slightly higher damage) faster.

Mechguns aren't a good choice for JGaff, being as he is a HUmar with slightly lower than average ATA.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gaffero on 2004-04-26 15:37 ]</font>

[lain2k3]

On 2004-04-26 15:36, Gaffero wrote:
Well, I believe Jgaff is asking you to compare the two weapons is the SPEED VS.POWER

Chainsawd may have higher ATP, but will swing slower and less frequently than a Yamato. The Yamato has lower ATP, but has a longer combo (thus slightly higher damage) faster.

Mechguns aren't a good choice for JGaff, being as he is a HUmar with slightly lower than average ATA.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gaffero on 2004-04-26 15:37 ]</font>


Yas9k, red mechs, and Guldmilla are the only mechs people even think about using without hit%.

40+ hit on mechs will solve any hunters ata problem.

[Zelendria_Ru]

I would say that double sabers are the best for single target damage potential (besides mechguns I think, but they are cheap lol)

...only way to say for sure is to use the damage calculator...it's too bad PSO isn't like Dark Age of Camelot...the ATP for weapons is substituted for DPS, Damage Per Second, which, clearly, is exactly what you are asking for...

Oh, the second part would be to time the combo with a stop watch, then compare the DPS of the 2...sange&yasha versus...oh, demolition comet for example...but all of your equipment and stats are required for the calc to work, including shifta if any...

Basically, the tools are there for you, it's not that hard to figure out...I was able to calc out my tech damage on pouilly slimes when I was away from the GC but online within about 30 damage...taking stats and equipment from memory....not bad when you figure my damage was about 670 lol, FOnewearls and single target techs are lethal! 0=)

As to long swords and partisans...any good hunter will tell you that they are (more or less) the domain of HU because of the ability to hit all nearby monsters...this STUNS the enemy reducing the chance of a counterattack...this is the role of a TANK in PSO...IMHO...that is...

So many HU are out to deal damage, how silly a notion considering how much better FO and RA are at doing it (in massive area of effect type ways)

***Just knows that someone is going to disagree***

[Hrith]

this is not true, what you just said is the reason the hunters have higher ATP, you cannot compare any of the damage a RA can deal to 1639 base ATP.

and PSO cannot have a "damage per second" thing, simply because combos can be timed, or purposely delayed.

RA and FO are not better, neither are HU, it's just how you play with them.

besides, online resistances are much higher, so all tech FOing is almost useless.

[DurakkenX]

You do know it's all based on what your'e fighting at the time...

Large groups of base lvl enemies. SWORDS are definately the quickest way to go

Single base lvl enemies. Twin Swords get 5 hits and have an over all higher ATP than most DBLsabers

low HP single enemies. Sabers have the quickest animation over all others and do decent damage

Flying enemies that are pretty slow moving. Mechs

Flying enemies that are fast moving. Handguns

the Dragon the best way to kill in the shortest time. pull out a handgun shoot it till it falls then use orotiagito or lavis cannon

De rol le. Orotiagito or lavis cannon

vol opt. twin swords for the pillars, sword for second form

Dark Falz.
Dervants - Saber type
Form 1 alone - Sword type, in group - twin swords
Form 2-3 - twin swords when close, hand guns when far

[Arislan]

Try a Sword on Del Rol Le instead of a Saber, you'll have better results. He falls under that "bunched up" enemies group.

[Mixfortune]

With an upper level Hunter, high hit mechguns and high hit slicers are excellent in several situations. Some may claim that using Slicers and Mechguns is not being a "true Hunter", but they can use them, and use them well. Dreamcast Slicers left much to be desired in terms of targetting capabilities, but on Version 3, slicers can be very deadly. They give a nice distance attack as far as Hunters are concerned, and give a good spread as far as hitting clustered enemies goes.

Multi-targetable bosses such as Dragon, De Rol Le, and Vol Opt are dust in front of a good Hunter with a good slicer, even more so than with other weapons.

Take a slicer to De Rol Le. You'll be able to damage it while it is swimming on the side of the raft, for hitting several places, and reaches further than a partisan or sword can. The only limiter on slicers is that they can only hit up to 4 targets at a time, but more often than not that is more than enough.

As for most damage in a set amount of time, especially against Dark Falz, use mechguns, and if you are close, use a double saber type. If anyone tells you to "start being a Hunter and stop being a Ranger", tell them to stfu while you legitly slaughter Ultimate enemies in a single combo.

[Deus-Irae]

On 2004-04-26 20:31, Zelendria_Ru wrote:
So many HU are out to deal damage, how silly a notion considering how much better FO and RA are at doing it (in massive area of effect type ways)


respectfully: you are nuts. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

HUs are for taking and dealing damage. peroid. no other char type in in the game compair to a HU in the damage department.

to the original topic creator:

ill repeat what a bunch of people said above.

*swords/slicers for multiple targets.
twin/dagger/mech type weps for single targets.*

that just the basic hard and fast rule. of course you can use whatever you want, wherever! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

GL on the yasha http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

[DurakkenX]

There is no slicer that does that great of damage on fallz or de rol le...using them and so it is a waste of time and takes longer...mechguns on dragon? pshaw. Orotiagito does 1000-1500 a hit and hits in 7-8 places with it's special IE 7000-12,000 per swing. and you get three swings a combo thas anywhere from 21,000-36,000 in less than 3 seconds while 400-600 mech guns at 3 hits per swing do 1,200-1,800 for a 9 hit combo thas 3,600-4,400 in about 4 seconds. Lavis is up there with orotiagito with slightly lower attack power...TJS does 1000-1700 damage in up to two spots which means 6000-10,200 still way better than mechs

De Rol Le same thing and mechs don't even do hit the De Rol Le most of the time.

The only prob with use orotiagito and lavis cannon is you lose HP which is alright when you can heal your self

Obviously some people have some misconceptions about the mechguns...they suck for hunters that is why they don't use them now stfu about them because unless you have nothing but weak hunter weapons mechs are nothin

[Hrith]

On 2004-04-26 23:12, Arislan wrote:
Try a Sword on Del Rol Le instead of a Saber, you'll have better results. He falls under that "bunched up" enemies group.
I think Durraken meant using the special to hit all parts, and besides, damage dealt to the body is not as important as gamage dealt to the head on worms, so swords are only really useful in C-mode or at low levels.



On 2004-04-27 08:26, DurakkenX wrote:
There is no slicer that does that great of damage on fallz or de rol le...using them and so it is a waste of time and takes longer...mechguns on dragon? pshaw. Orotiagito does 1000-1500 a hit and hits in 7-8 places with it's special IE 7000-12,000 per swing. and you get three swings a combo thas anywhere from 21,000-36,000 in less than 3 seconds while 400-600 mech guns at 3 hits per swing do 1,200-1,800 for a 9 hit combo thas 3,600-4,400 in about 4 seconds. Lavis is up there with orotiagito with slightly lower attack power...TJS does 1000-1700 damage in up to two spots which means 6000-10,200 still way better than mechs

De Rol Le same thing and mechs don't even do hit the De Rol Le most of the time.

The only prob with use orotiagito and lavis cannon is you lose HP which is alright when you can heal your self

Obviously some people have some misconceptions about the mechguns...they suck for hunters that is why they don't use them now stfu about them because unless you have nothing but weak hunter weapons mechs are nothin
well the thing is you are obviously not legit, because my HUcast is Lv 189 and has maxed ATP, and he deals nowhere near 1000-1500 damage on Sil Dragon with Orotiagito.
And we honestly do not give a damn shit about a cheater's point of view.

mechs are overkill, even a ranger can outdo a hunter with mechs, when Auracom lent me his Guld Milla, a hunter with S&Y could not compare with my RAmarl (which maxes ATP at 1145, fyi), so Charge Vulcans on HUcast is simply scary.

and about multi-hit weapons on bosses, daggers own twin sabers and paired swords, because by the time you land 7 combos with the latters, you deal 10 with daggers.

[Mixfortune]

DurakkenX, there is no way you can do 1000-1500 with an Orotiagito and 400-600 with mechguns on the same target unless your Orotiagito has really high percentages. I'm also lead to believe this since you are obviously able to consistently hit 7-8 times each swing with the Orotiagito's special, which is known for having a naturally low hit success rate, especially for a lower ATA hunter like a HUcast.

And yes, mechs suck against De Rol Le? Who said they don't? Slicers are what you use while it's swimming on the side of the raft, since Swords have a harder time reaching consistently. Swords or whatever else you prefer can be used when it attaches to the raft.

I have almost all these weapons you speak of DurakkenX, legitly. I know their uses, so there are no misconceptions on this end. Perhaps you should try playing with more legit stuff? Of course 100% native/a.beast/machine/dark/hit Orotiagito will beat out whatever random mechgun you pick up.

But either way, fully legit or cheating, mechguns still beat single targets. Heck you can even multiequip until your ATP is 6000. I can assure you that mechguns will end up doing far more in the long run to single targets. It just depends on how the cheating is done... and some just prefer big single numbers.

Point is, the higher your base ATP gets, the less the ATP of the weapon itself matters.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mixfortune on 2004-04-27 09:51 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

On 2004-04-27 09:49, Mixfortune wrote:
DurakkenX, there is no way you can do 1000-1500 with an Orotiagito and 400-600 with mechguns on the same target unless your Orotiagito has really high percentages. I'm also lead to believe this since you are obviously able to consistently hit 7-8 times each swing with the Orotiagito's special, which is known for having a naturally low hit success rate, especially for a lower ATA hunter like a HUcast.

And yes, mechs suck against De Rol Le? Who said they don't? Slicers are what you use while it's swimming on the side of the raft, since Swords have a harder time reaching consistently. Swords or whatever else you prefer can be used when it attaches to the raft.

I have almost all these weapons you speak of DurakkenX, legitly. I know their uses, so there are no misconceptions on this end. Perhaps you should try playing with more legit stuff? Of course 100% native/a.beast/machine/dark/hit Orotiagito will beat out whatever random mechgun you pick up.

But either way, fully legit or cheating, mechguns still beat single targets. Heck you can even multiequip until your ATP is 6000. I can assure you that mechguns will end up doing far more in the long run to single targets. It just depends on how the cheating is done... and some just prefer big single numbers.

Point is, the higher your base ATP gets, the less the ATP of the weapon itself matters.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mixfortune on 2004-04-27 09:51 ]</font>


I have every weapon in the game accept 8 and the not including the dif specials for base weps...If you want proof i can pull out a Hacked mech and hacked oritagito and get the exact same atp with exact same atp and i can gaurentee orotiagito will do more over all damage against the dragon, but you see oroti and mechs aren't meant to have the same atp in the first place. Not only that most people in the game used hacked stuff...and also...i'm going with the best you can get.

Another thing is if your hitting 3 or 4 of those 8 your still doing more damage than with the mechs plus oroti is quicker than those mechs overall

[DEMMON]

The best weapon for Dragon: First handgun type when is in the ground, a saber type. Against DeRol, a multienemy like Partisan or Sword, against Volopt the higher result can be obtained with slicer type and its incredible fast, hit a lot of parts, i always have considered volpot the easiest of all bosses, or a Partisan, Dark Falz, darvants-Saber, 2 stage-mechgun, 3 stage-saber, 4 stage-handgun. It works even in lower levels. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[DurakkenX]

well the thing is you are obviously not legit, because my HUcast is Lv 189 and has maxed ATP, and he deals nowhere near 1000-1500 damage on Sil Dragon with Orotiagito.
And we honestly do not give a damn shit about a cheater's point of view.

mechs are overkill, even a ranger can outdo a hunter with mechs, when Auracom lent me his Guld Milla, a hunter with S&Y could not compare with my RAmarl (which maxes ATP at 1145, fyi), so Charge Vulcans on HUcast is simply scary.

and about multi-hit weapons on bosses, daggers own twin sabers and paired swords, because by the time you land 7 combos with the latters, you deal 10 with daggers.



My base with MAG stats are

ATP 1415
DFP 447
ATA 174
EVP 546
LCK 40

add 60 to all stats from 3 god abilities
add another 30 or 40 to ATP for kasami bracer

100% native and hit on my weps

THe reason you don't do damage that high is because you more than likely have planned to max your stats and prolly haven't put 100% on orotiagito.

If you want i can get my legit one duped and test out what kind of damage i do, but i don't see the point..i'll even take off the god abilites..but i'm sure i'll do massive damage like i said

[Hrith]

The reason you don't do damage that high is because you more than likely have planned to max your stats and prolly haven't put 100% on orotiagito.
because I'm obviously legit

[DurakkenX]

the only thing you can argue that point on is the 100% hit...my stats WILL be maxed at level 200 legitly and i can easilly get an orotiagito with 100% native by using photon drops...you have no reason not to be able to do higher damage

[Hrith]

On 2004-04-27 13:00, DurakkenX wrote:
the only thing you can argue that point on is the 100% hit...my stats WILL be maxed at level 200 legitly and i can easilly get an orotiagito with 100% native by using photon drops...you have no reason not to be able to do higher damage
to get 100% Native on Oro, you'd need 337 Photon Drops at best, good luck on finding them legitly, and that 100% hit is just http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_barf.gif but hey, play how you enjoy it, as long as it's not with me, just don't promote cheating, it's not very welcome here >_>

[Gaffero]

Thread = Derailed

My bro just wanted to know whether not paired swords swung faster or slower than a sword.

I've heard most of what you guys are debating, which is fine. If someone could just say something like this...

Sange& Yasha will swing slower/faster in a 5 hit combo than ChainSawd in a 3 hit combo

That's all He/I wanted to know.

[Jae]

How hard can it be to get a simple pair of twin swords and compare them to a regular sword yourself?

Only going by recollection but my Asuka's combo appears to be on par with my Red Sword's combo.

Geez.

[Hrith]

On 2004-04-26 15:02, Kef wrote:
You cannot compare a weapon that hits one monster at a time to a weapon that hits several targets.
See, I replied to your question.

[LoreSeeker]

On 2004-04-26 15:02, Kef wrote:


On 2004-04-26 14:48, LoreSeeker wrote:
Whenever I play in those situations, I usually like to go with double weapons. The total animation time for using something like a Yamato is probably a little bit longer than Chain Sawd, but it attacks more times, thus making it worthwhile. The decrease in damage is negated by how much you can hit with it.
you cannot compare a weapon that hits one monster at a time to a weapon that hits several targets.


If at all possible, however, I would scrap swords and twin weapons and go with mechguns. They hit even more, and you don't have to get up so close to the enemy to kill them.
That completely ruins the point of being a hunter, now, does it ?



I'm so terribly sorry, I guess I hallucinated and thought that he was asking how each type of weapon would fare against a boss like Dark Falz who can only be hit in one spot. So, based on what I figured he was asking, I gave an appropriate answer, as a paired weapon would yield better results on a boss who can only be hit in one spot, and mechguns would be even better.

I suppose that mechguns would negate the point of being a HU to some extent, but plenty of HUs use mechs. HUs can still use mechs, so evidently they aren't that much of a problem. The Needle was a problem, so HUs can't use it now.

[JGaff]

The reason i was asking was because I don't play on weekdays. I get Straight A's in School and Value work before pleasure. Thus, I limit how much I play so as to keep up a good work ethic. That was why I was asking you. I will try and test this in 2 player on Friday afternoon, but I wanted the answer from the players.



So far, I know Paired Swords are good on Single Hit enemies. We Know Mech's with good hit% are a nice addition (My Section Id's really don't get Mech's, but I'll check out my options). I'm Still unsure about Weapon speeds, but someone noted they were about the same. If you guys want to continue to discuss whatever the hell you want in this thread, I'm cool with that. Just make a sentence about the original point of the topic so It stays somewhat on course.

Thanks,

[Mixfortune]

Ok, I never said mechguns were better against multi-target enemies, I said slicers were for most. Of course Orotiagito's special will do more with 100% hit on the weapon, but try it with a legit Orotiagito (0% hit) and I can guarantee you will not connect nearly as much.

And JGaff, Kef is right. You cannot compare the value of the Twin Swords versus a Sword, as they have very different targetting capabilities. Sure you can test the speeds, but that may not help that much, depending on the number and types of enemies you fight.

If anything, compare Twin Swords to Sabers, or Twin Swords to Daggers, or Twin Swords to Double Sabers, or even Partisans to Swords. Testing the value of speed average over a set amount of time between weapons meant to hit multiple enemies and those meant to hit single enemies will not help much. A regular sword type is generally not as damaging against a single enemy when compared to weapons created for the sole purpose of taking on single enemies.

[Zelendria_Ru]

respectfully: you are nuts.

HUs are for taking and dealing damage. peroid. no other char type in in the game compair to a HU in the damage department.



Did I say that HU can't deal insane amounts of damage? No. What I am saying is that a HU is meant to keep the monsters busy while the FO's and RA's are nuking/blasting the monsters...purely offensive HU's in PSO piss me off...they are the people that run forward and kill everything in the room before anyone else can get a hit in...when I come into a room the first thing I do is rush the monsters, tag them with Zalure, then stand there while everyone gets some hits in...

I could care less how much damage I am doing as long as I am protecting my FO...he/she is the one that is casting shifta/deband/jel&zal/resta etc...it is my duty to protect them first, before I consider how much damage I am doing...it is quite different when a boss or difficult single enemy appears...

Simply put I use a large sword to smack incoming waves of beasties, doing my absolute best to attack or block anything coming after my FO (or RA)...I then switch to a doublesaber to dish out single target damage...sometimes employing Diska of Braveman for bosses with multiple attack points...

I have critted for 1k on Ult forest monster...that's totally legit, demo.comet with 35% native, ~900 atp...but I am more than satisfied smacking a wave for ~700 crit with Red Sword...but I've quit games with pure offence HU's uninterested in playing the game as a team

[Evil_Althena8]

Why use a sword? I prefer partisans. Although swords have higher ATP I prefer the speed of partisan over ATP, and although I'm not too sure it seems partisans have better reach. Just my personal preference

[Hrith]

Partisans have better range, but swords have a wider radius.

[Zelendria_Ru]

Why use a sword? I prefer partisans. Although swords have higher ATP I prefer the speed of partisan over ATP, and although I'm not too sure it seems partisans have better reach. Just my personal preference

It's just a personal preference...I have a Red Partisan and a Red Sword, just like the way the sword looks etc...plus only a HU can use it...

[Malkavian]

Know what?

For Falz last form take a handgun. All the time you need walking to reach Falz with a sword or twin swords you could be hitting him with a handgun.
Is true that mechguns are a nice choice too. You should be able to find some with 40-50% hit in your shop easily. Just checking everytime you pass through pioneer 2.

[oeagrus]

I could care less how much damage I am doing as long as I am protecting my FO
Damn, I really like you Zelendria_Ru! That's the least selfish, most group oriented, nicest, smartest, and most refreshingly positive thing I've read in this entire thread. I hope to someday do some PSOing with people of your ilk, because they are few and far between.

Sorry I took this mildly off topic, but kudos were due to Zelendria.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: oeagrus on 2004-04-29 12:23 ]</font>

[JGaff]

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif^^^

No problem.

I'm waiting for someone to walk in and mention that just about everyone here has stated the obvious. assume that I've been playing the game a year and I DO know what I'm doing.

For Mike's sake (Whoever the hell Mike is...), Just answer the first question. I'm going to do testing tommorrow, but If someone could actually answer it here, I'd kiss ass (maybe, and not literally you sickos/pedophiles)

[iamfanboy]

Well, my HUnewearl uses Yamato and Last Survivor exclusively (aside from a touch of Vulcan action), and I just put her through Ult Forest, so I can definitely say...

that it is, in fact, apples and oranges.

The sword is a smidge faster, maybe (aside from the female recovery time, which ain't exactly greased lightning), BUT the Yamato is a lot more accurate and deals more damage to begin with. My vote goes for double swords, all the way, and I think I'm gonna start doing Ult Spaceship runs in the hopes of getting an Asuka from the Gol Dragon...

[Deus-Irae]

On 2004-04-29 16:49, JGaff wrote:

For Mike's sake (Whoever the hell Mike is...), Just answer the first question. I'm going to do testing tommorrow, but If someone could actually answer it here, I'd kiss ass (maybe, and not literally you sickos/pedophiles)



what was the question again? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

how about busting out the old stopwatch and testing it out?

keep us updated. we are all very interested.

[Kupi]

He's not asking which one is more effective, he's asking which one will complete a combo faster. And since I *know* that, for instance, I can finish a Saber combo faster than I'll complete a Double Saber combo, it stands that reason that, between a Sword and a Twin Sword, there might be a difference in combo speed. I just don't know what it is.

[iamfanboy]

The sword is faster then, if only slightly. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif