Challenge: Damage Cancel

[Ketchup345]

Can someone please explain what damage cancel is?

It is supposed to happen when two people attack the sae target at the same time, right? Does both damage get canceled? Or just one? How can you tell when it comes into effect, since the numbers still appear for both attacks?

[rena-ko]

its due to server-host issues. all clients do damage, send it off to the server, who sends it to the host-client (gamemaker). this one calculates the actual damage done (as well as enemy HP, drops etc).

damage cancel has bad and also good results.

if several clients attack the exact same target, the packages of damage might be interpreted by either server or host as multiplied and get erased. this has most likely to do with time delay tollerance of the network.

giving each player an unique identifier and adding this to each damage-packet would have prevented this i think, but well.

so, canceling erases one of both damages done (if 2 attack the same target) - in conclusion, it wastes time in two ways:
-the damage that got canceled out (even if both do equal damage) could have been dealt to another enemy in that moment.
-a ra with 0 or low damage canceling out a huct with mayor damage delays the fight - not a good idea when its about time or about killing a boss as soon as possible.


however the bright side is that for some weird reason, you can freezelock enemies with damage cancel. just have 2 or more players attack the same target while its frozen - preferably with multihit weapons and preferably around the time when the freeze breaks off.
(here the information that its not frozen gets cancelled out)


ways to prevent it:

1 on 1 - thats TA tactic
here, look for an enemy that suits your damage or that's not being attacked by now.

2 on 1 with rythm
pretty hard to pull off, you have to synchronize your combo with the combo of the other one. both have to stay predicable for the other player so you can time both combos to match into eachother like a zipper.

least risk tactic
on bosses, never use weak attacks.
a miss is better than a hit because it doesnt (seem to) get calculated into the damage done and thus doesnt cancel.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rena-ko on 2004-04-27 05:32 ]</font>

[Capricornus]

On 2004-04-27 03:31, Ketchup345 wrote:
Can someone please explain what damage cancel is?

It is supposed to happen when two people attack the sae target at the same time, right? Does both damage get canceled? Or just one? How can you tell when it comes into effect, since the numbers still appear for both attacks?


Dammage cancel is a real pain when you want to TA a C-stage online.

Its kinda stupid the game cant register both dammage at the same time, but then again, we better get used to it and learn to live with it.
Telling which one cancels out is really hard (if not impossible) to know, so its always advised to avoid it (sometimes the weakest hit gets registred, sometimes the hardest).
Therefore hitting both the same enemy is ok if both players do the same amount of dammage (also advised to both players to do H- attacks, so if cancel occurs, a H attack will always be registred)

My dearest wish is to never see any RA anymore hitting a Pan (on C3 -0 dammage to Pan) canceling out the FO tech-ing the pan http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_bash.gif






Sorry Rena, your post wasnt there when I was replying to ketchups answer.
This post is no addition to yours, seen the fact that yours is more than complete

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Capricornus on 2004-04-27 05:55 ]</font>

[rena-ko]

np, but maybe some examples as addition:

-attack techs of course can be cancelled and cancel.
-damage traps cancel as well.
it basically goes by the rule "everything that does damage (0 up to whatever is the max)"


if support techs (zalure) or freeze/confuse traps cancel is not really sure.
so far i just noticed that zalure does trigger a gi gue in its defense-net to attack with its bazooka.

miss dont seem to cancel either, but i havent seen this tested yet.

[Capricornus]

On 2004-04-27 06:33, rena-ko wrote:
np, but maybe some examples as addition:

-attack techs of course can be cancelled and cancel.
-damage traps cancel as well.
it basically goes by the rule "everything that does damage (0 up to whatever is the max)"


if support techs (zalure) or freeze/confuse traps cancel is not really sure.
so far i just noticed that zalure does trigger a gi gue in its defense-net to attack with its bazooka.

miss dont seem to cancel either, but i havent seen this tested yet.


Actually, theres one dammage that doesnt get canceled http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
That is the dammage the monsters inflict to theirselves (by confusing them)

[rena-ko]

interesting. then, things like that will be determined on the host-client, so there is no cancel.

something to check out is:
-do status alliments cancel?
-does a client cancel out a host-client?
(if both - the gamemaker and another player attack the same enemy, do they cancel eachother? technically they shouldnt.)

[Ketchup345]

Ok, tahnks. Thought it was something like that. Now to find a team for E2 C3 that knows to DC if dying and not to damage cancel. >.< That'll be fun.

[VulpesMundi]

The simple rule of damage cancelling is thus: if the attack effects an enemy, then it can cancel damage. This included even Jellen, Zalure, Confuse Traps, and Freeze Traps, among other things. And you also have to take into account latency and lag. Remember how the Frozen Shooter and Snow Queen work? You can completely miss on your screen, but if you hit on someone else's screen it'll still freeze the target. That's no different. So you have to be very cautious about what you're doing. And yes, confused monsters can cancel damage as well. In the long run I think it comes down to who is the host and what the host sees on her/his screen. The host is the least likely to be cancelled since they're the most directly connected to the server. If you want to avoid damage cancel, the best you can do is attack different targets.

[Nai_Calus]

*insert drawing of SD FOmar in C2 looking sad while holding a sign up reading 'Please don't shot the Nano Dragons' while a RAmarl keeps a Nano in the air where the HU can't hit it, doing 0 damage and probably cancelling out any tech thrown at it here*

*insert similar drawing, except involving Pan Arms and anybody attempting to attack it here*

*insert bad map and C4 time of 1'05"22 here*

>_<;;;

Damage cancel is not your friend.

[Deus-Irae]

On 2004-04-27 17:49, Ian-KunX wrote:

Damage cancel is not your friend.



actually for beginners in EP1 cmode this isnt allways the case, is it?

really damage cancel is only a problem if you are attempting to TA a stage.

in the certain stages it can help to have multiple Hunters attack the same enemy. it can kill the enemy quicker in many instances and prevent the enemy from attacking, thus saving precious mates.

if you havent completed EP1 cmode several times, id say that damage cancel is not something you should even be worried about.

(when a RA hits a Nano in the air, its all about realizing that they are not having any effect or helping out at all, not damage cancel. but if a RA can hit a nano on the ground and prevent it from blasting one of the Hunters, damage cancel be damned!)

[Jazhara]

Mosaik's TA guide (http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=1330) contains excellent tips on fighting in C-mode, many of which help avoid cancelling.




On 2004-04-28 02:47, Deus-Irae wrote:
actually for beginners in EP1 cmode this isnt allways the case, is it?

really damage cancel is only a problem if you are attempting to TA a stage.



Nooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

1. Have you cleared EpII C-mode yet Deus? I'm guessing not, as time is more important to get S in EpII and damage cancelling RAs can really push your time up.


2. Cancelling will *really* put non-n00b C-mode players off you very, very quickly. Even in EpI, damage cancelling is annoying as hell. See the thread about "Why JP players wont play with westerners" - damage cancel is a big part of that.


3. Damage cancel doesn't just exist in C-mode, it is all of PSO. Understanding damage cancel can really help your levelling play too. It's not C-mode specific, learning and understanding cancel will raise your game in general.


The *only* time cancel is acceptable is in a room of four friends, who all know each other and are happy with whatever goes on.

Pleeease don't damage cancel in public games on Alcyone - it doesn't do non-JP players reputation any favours! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Jazhara]

On 2004-04-27 17:49, Ian-KunX wrote:
*insert drawing of SD FOmar in C2 looking sad while holding a sign up reading 'Please don't shot the Nano Dragons' while a RAmarl keeps a Nano in the air where the HU can't hit it, doing 0 damage and probably cancelling out any tech thrown at it here*

*insert similar drawing, except involving Pan Arms and anybody attempting to attack it here*

*insert bad map and C4 time of 1'05"22 here*

>_<;;;

Damage cancel is not your friend.



Hehe - and the EPII equivalent - RAs using a Shot in C4 or C5...

"I'm keeping the recons busy"

Grrrr. ><

[Capricornus]

On 2004-04-28 06:33, Jazhara wrote:

Hehe - and the EPII equivalent - RAs using a Shot in C4 or C5...

"I'm keeping the recons busy"

Grrrr. ><


Hey, thats Rommel's quote http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_innocent.gif

[Hrith]

On 2004-04-28 06:29, Jazhara wrote:
Damage cancel doesn't just exist in C-mode, it is all of PSO. Understanding damage cancel can really help your levelling play too. It's not C-mode specific, learning and understanding cancel will raise your game in general.
Amen to that !

[Nai_Calus]

On 2004-04-28 02:47, Deus-Irae wrote:


On 2004-04-27 17:49, Ian-KunX wrote:

Damage cancel is not your friend.



actually for beginners in EP1 cmode this isnt allways the case, is it?

really damage cancel is only a problem if you are attempting to TA a stage.

in the certain stages it can help to have multiple Hunters attack the same enemy. it can kill the enemy quicker in many instances and prevent the enemy from attacking, thus saving precious mates.

if you havent completed EP1 cmode several times, id say that damage cancel is not something you should even be worried about.

(when a RA hits a Nano in the air, its all about realizing that they are not having any effect or helping out at all, not damage cancel. but if a RA can hit a nano on the ground and prevent it from blasting one of the Hunters, damage cancel be damned!)



They are keeping it in the air where the HU can't hit it, and cancelling out my FOmar's Barta, causing me to have to waste TP when it take an extra one or two Bartas to kill it. I fail to see how this helps anyone.

Ditto the Pan Arms in C4 when they won't split no matter what and you waste more time waiting for it to split than you do teching it to death, and people keep attacking for 0 damage pointlessly, making you need an extra tech or two to kill. Again, this helps how? As a HU I might not mind so much outside of simply being annoyed when it takes longer to kill, but being the FO and being the primary source of death for these things(Nanos in C2 when nobody can damage it much anyway except for FO and HU and we only had one HU, who was usually busy elsewhere, Pan Arms that won't split no matter how long you do the usual tricks to make it split that nobody else can damage at all because the droids already used up their damage traps... T_T), it irked the hell out of me. I only have so much TP, only so many fluids, only so many scapes... Mrr.

And I'd probably mind it less were it not for the horrible incompetence and people not doing/going what/where I tell them to. >_>; Yeah, we're not TAing, but between people not listening and damage cancel, things get miserable and you wind up with a C4 time of 1'05"22. My HUcl's C4 time is 32"something. T_T Half the team was competent then, though.

[Sheik1]

Kepping them busy...you mean holding their HP hostage so they don't die? I say Grrrrrr too!!! ><



On 2004-04-28 06:33, Jazhara wrote:


On 2004-04-27 17:49, Ian-KunX wrote:
*insert drawing of SD FOmar in C2 looking sad while holding a sign up reading 'Please don't shot the Nano Dragons' while a RAmarl keeps a Nano in the air where the HU can't hit it, doing 0 damage and probably cancelling out any tech thrown at it here*

*insert similar drawing, except involving Pan Arms and anybody attempting to attack it here*

*insert bad map and C4 time of 1'05"22 here*

>_<;;;

Damage cancel is not your friend.



Hehe - and the EPII equivalent - RAs using a Shot in C4 or C5...

"I'm keeping the recons busy"

Grrrr. ><

[Deus-Irae]

On 2004-04-28 06:29, Jazhara wrote:
Nooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

1. Have you cleared EpII C-mode yet Deus? I'm guessing not, as time is more important to get S in EpII and damage cancelling RAs can really push your time up.


yes i have. time was not an issue at all.

the point i was making (or trying to http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif) is that for people just learning cmode, damage cancel should be like the last of your concerns.

if you can't stay alive, or finish a stage. you need the basics. and damage cancel is a somewhat advanced idea.

4 noobs all getting thier asses kicked by 4 different enemies isnt gonna help anyone beat a level.

its very possible to beat EP1 cmode with NO knowledge of damage cancel. (i did it plenty of times early on http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

Ep2 is a bit more difficult though. in more ways than one.

[Jazhara]

On 2004-05-01 00:17, Deus-Irae wrote:

the point i was making (or trying to http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif) is that for people just learning cmode, damage cancel should be like the last of your concerns.

if you can't stay alive, or finish a stage. you need the basics. and damage cancel is a somewhat advanced idea.



If the player is that standard though, they should not be joining public games on Alcyone, or specifically not JP ones. Players with no real idea how to play C-mode joining their games puts JP players off those who can play and succeed at it. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that's how it is. =/





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jazhara on 2004-05-13 05:17 ]</font>