That's just wrong...!!! [Archive]

View Full Version : That's just wrong...!!!

DarthFomar

May 12, 2004, 01:58 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html

Now...if that doesn't make me wanna go vigilante, and shoot some ppl then I don't know what does. It was bad enough the U.S. soldiers did what they did, but this does not justify *at all* their actions. See, this is why the ppl of this world can never get along. I don't think beheading an American was necessary, was it.

Btw this is NOT a rant. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

If they wanted the detainees back...this wasn't the way to go. They definitly won't recieve anything now....P. Bush will probably deny everything they request from this moment forth.

Berg was only a businessman....what was the point in his death. It would have made more since to kill one of our Soldiers rather than an international businessman. I don't even see why he was working over there in the first place. It isn't very safe over there anymore.

"He had this idea that he could help rebuild the infrastructure," Suzanne Berg

I still do not see why he would even consider working over there, all he did was maintain and repair communication towers. Someone else could have done it...if not him {maybe a soldier, or someone that already worked at the Com Towers}. I guess he really wanted to make a difference though. But it is sad, the way it turned out.

This may have been avoided if those troops didn't abuse the prisoners. But then again, maybe it was inevitable. Maybe they thought killing and beheading an innocent American would both justify the humiliation of the prisoners and urge the United States to release the Abu Ghraib detainees.

I think their efforts have been wasted, as well as a precious and valuable life. If we don't stop these people soon. I swear to God....I hope the World ends in the near future.

What are some of your thoughts about this sickening and tragic event.

{edit: I think I'm gonna be sick?!!!}

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-12 00:03 ]

***{{{edit: on a side note...while I was typing this post someone else made a topic related to this and I just noticed it, but this isn't about the video itself...this is about the nature of the event....so that means this is a different discusion right?!}}}***

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-12 00:18 ]

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-12 01:45 ]

DarthFomar

May 12, 2004, 03:56 AM

I have also heard that there have been 2 more beheadings....am I correct?!

If so....then I am truely disgusted. Things like this shouldn't happen to civilians {nor soldiers for that fact}. Can't we stop this mindless killing. I can understand killing in wars...but stuff like this just isn't right *what so ever*.

They will truely pay for what they've done in the next life...I f-ing guarantee it. Those murderers deserve to either rot in a cell, or be put to death the way they killed Berg and the others.

I could never see me killing anyone is such a horrid way. Nor could I see me killing anyone other than in self-defense, for that matter.

The World really is an awful place these days. When will people realize that this is not the way....?!

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-12 04:03 ]

SpikeOtacon

May 12, 2004, 05:16 AM

On 2004-05-12 01:56, DarthFomar wrote:

The World really is an awful place these days.

That sums up the whole thread. And as cynical as this may sound, that's life.

Of course, it's a shame what they are doing. Kinda disturbing, beheading people and whatnot. Even still, it's part of war. Besides, this shows how media only covers the negative aspects of the war. -__-;

[ This Message was edited by: SpikeOtacon on 2004-05-12 03:18 ]

DarthFomar

May 12, 2004, 05:43 AM

I do not call beheading civilians for some lame cause {which hasn't even been answered} the way of life. In fact I call it...a first class ticket to hell.

We needed to know about this....so the media can gladly cover as mush negativity as they want....just so we know what goes on outside these walls of ours.

What those *insane....unholy....god fearing....and irrational* ppl did was unforgivable. They should be found and brought to justice. In fact....since they believe in God some much....*an eye for an eye* why don't we behead them like they did Berg. But, of course that would make us no better than they.

So they can rot in a smelly jail cell until they grow old and tired and eventually die a most horrible lonely death.

If another beheading happens in the next few days, weeks, I hope President Bush will find out where these ppl are....how many there are, when to attack them...and how to attack them. B'cuz when he does...I hope every single bastard either dies or is thrown into one of our jails for what they have done {lets see how they get treated}.

Also, if you have seen the video........*warning!!! very graphic* you will feel very sick and upset about this more than you'd ever think. Trust me!!!

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-12 04:07 ]

Kent

May 13, 2004, 01:37 AM

On 2004-05-12 01:56, DarthFomar wrote:
The World really is an awful place these days.

/obivous

We've already established that this world is well on its way to hell. There are disturbingly few good people any more...

opaopajr

May 13, 2004, 03:51 AM

the gates have been opened, welcome to hell.

evil all around, from us, from them, and there doesn't seem to be any hope in sight.

we just invaded najaf (the shiite holy city) and the pictures of rape of iraqi women are coming down the pipeline, so expect (real) evidence of them soon.

the world is on fire now, wait 'til it hits the TNT.

ps: i am so saddened that this young man, almost my age, has been gruesomely murdered. why, oh why, didn't we give him access to a lawyer, phone calls, etc. you know, he was there for only a short time, wanting to leave march 30th. as he was leaving he was picked up by the iraqi guard, handed over to the us military for questioning, held without charge, access to lawyer, phone, etc. for 13 days. it took the heroic effort of the mom to find him and then file a lawsuit to get him released. and then when he was suddenly released, in the middle of the horrible april uprisings, why wasn't he taken to the us embassy in baghdad? it's the largest us embassy in the world now, with some 3,000+ people. they could have processed him and shuttled him out safely through baghdad airport. what the hell! who on earth allows our military to just dump a stranded (and previously imprisoned) american citizen in the middle of a warzone when there's the *biggest* embassy we have in the world nearby? how in the hell does stuff like that happen!? madness, sheer madness...

KaFKa

May 13, 2004, 04:07 AM

yeah, its sad, but i cant help but laugh at this guys idiocy.

and seriously, i think we have already figured out that life is hell, yeah?

HUnewearl_Meira

May 13, 2004, 11:14 AM

Americans aren't alone in being outraged by the beheading. Even Arab nations are condemning the act. It seems that it's so unacceptable that it's nearly overshadowed the mistreatment of the prisoners. I mean heck... Some of the prisoner abuse photos have been disputed, and proven to have not even been taken in Iraq (the pictures of British soldiers, in particular).

But these guys went on camera, and were like, "Hey! Watch us kill this American because we're a bunch of disgruntled, religiously fanatical assholes!"

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html

DarthFomar

May 14, 2004, 05:37 AM

On 2004-05-13 09:14, HUnewearl_Meira wrote:

Americans aren't alone in being outraged by the beheading. Even Arab nations are condemning the act. It seems that it's so unacceptable that it's nearly overshadowed the mistreatment of the prisoners. I mean heck... Some of the prisoner abuse photos have been disputed, and proven to have not even been taken in Iraq (the pictures of British soldiers, in particular).

But these guys went on camera, and were like, "Hey! Watch us kill this American because we're a bunch of disgruntled, religiously fanatical assholes!"

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html

Yes I happened to have read that some of the Arabs have condemned the act. I hope they see how brutal these type of ppl are *fanatical terrorists of God*. IMO.....we should rid the world of these ppl as soon as we can.

I mean if they hate anyone that doesn't think they way they think, or do the things they do....and they kill ppl for this. Then they should all die before they should be allowed to continue their beliefs any further.

I pray that no more brutal killings will happen *seeing as the article says that they vowed more*.

I think if there is another killing like this....the soldiers will have more anger to release during this war. I do not know how they will release this anger. But let's pray that they don't abuse any more prisoners out of their frustration.

DarthFomar

May 14, 2004, 05:44 AM

On 2004-05-13 02:07, KaFKa wrote:
yeah, its sad, but i cant help but laugh at this guys idiocy.

and seriously, i think we have already figured out that life is hell, yeah?

Btw....you laugh at a man who is beheaded. I don't think that is a very respectful way to speak of the dead. I will remember to laugh at you if you are ever beheaded.

If you aren't referring to Berg....then who are you........the terrorist....?!

Subliminalgroove

May 14, 2004, 10:48 AM

While I do not condone the unfortunate demise of Nick Berg in the least. I do feel that I need to say something...

I am faced with something that has quickly become a moral delema.

Who are the bad guys here?

Who should I be rooting for?

The actions of the terrorists are unacceptable, this is more than obvious. But the actions of the US have been far from saintly either. I am not just refering to the recent abuse. Our bag of dirty laundry relating to the middle east goes WAY back. We have done horrendous things to the economic stability, cultural heritage, and the civilians of these countries for more than 30 years. In many ways we are invaders in their countries.

We have encouraged countries to use various gas weapons on each other. Killing men, women, and children on a massive scale. Granted, we didn't do it directly. However, if you give a child a gun and someone gets hurt, who is responsible: you or the child? We have assasinated, installed, and assasinated leader after leader over there. We have sponsored terrorist factions in the mid-east. Our own military has killed men, women, and children in the bombing of Afghanistan, in the Gulf war, and in this war.

It shames and angers me to say that this isn't even the start of our dirty deeds in regards to the middle east.

If a country that had more power imaginable was doing simmilar things to us, how would you react? While you might not be killing civilians in horrendous fashion, you might be signing up to do "terrorist acts" against your aggressors. Hell, its something that is EXPECTED of us if we were ever invaded. Something I would do without thinking. If an invading army was in our streets, I would be doing everything I could to remove them from our borders, or at least slow them down.

So, knowing this, how can I readily demonize the resistance over there. The people Who killed Nicholas Berg are fucktards, no doubt about that. But any movement, terrorist or otherwise, has extremists. Which means, not ALL of them are like that. A great many probobly feel the indignation and frustration about having another country in their borders. Same as you, I, and any other patriot would have if our roles were reversed.

But do, I side with the terrorists, no. Not at all.

I support our troops, as they are just people. And I want them back home with their families post haste.

So, where do my loyalties lie. They have to lie somewhere. I can't play switzerland anymore. Are we so desperatly wrong that I feel more sympathy for the resistance, or do I feel so much outrage at events like Nick Berg's sorrowful and pityable demise that I line up with all the hawks?

No one is right in this situation, if anyone is EVER right in the game of global politics. But, the question remains, where does that leave you and I?

Wow, that was long. Thank you for reading through this. I know I went off on a big thing. But it is an issue that truly concerns me.

opaopajr

May 14, 2004, 09:26 PM

well, subliminalgroove, there's enough blame to go around. but the big thing is the movers and shakers in the american gov't, and especially my party, republican party, got caught in the web they wove.

what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive...

we created the mujahedeen, we created the shah of iran, we created saddam hussein in response to our failings of our shah puppet in iran, we gave the gas and the go ahead (saddam was *our* puppet against communism...), we associated with saudi arabia (and bush family in particular with bin laden family) and fostered the sick and twisted manipulative relationship there, we created the taliban against the russians, we created a whole mess of really nasty stuff that is now biting us back in the @$$ because we thought (we being my poor hijacked party's leadership and foreign policy in the past 30-40 years) we were *so smart* and could get away with this convoluted hocus pocus... guess they weren't as smart as they thought... stupid, stupid, stupid.

and now we all are paying for their hubris. and now even more foolish things are being done in our name, making the situation even worse. it's so depressing. our devil spawn are biting us back and we are invoking similar tactics on those caught in between in an attempt to regain control... ironic and sad.
i ask for new leadership, for this madness must stop.

Subliminalgroove

May 14, 2004, 09:55 PM

opaopajr, you are too right. We got caught up in playing chess with the USSR and trying to exert our superpower status on the rest of the world that we created too many skeletons to hide in the closet.

The whole thing is a mess. And it depresses me to no end.

I only wish that sometime soon, someone in power will attempt to clean this mess up... its a task that will take the rest of our lifetimes to even make a dent in...

<sigh>

DarthFomar

May 15, 2004, 01:03 AM

On 2004-05-14 19:55, Subliminalgroove wrote:
opaopajr, you are too right. We got caught up in playing chess with the USSR and trying to exert our superpower status on the rest of the world that we created too many skeletons to hide in the closet.

The whole thing is a mess. And it depresses me to no end.

I only wish that sometime soon, someone in power will attempt to clean this mess up... its a task that will take the rest of our lifetimes to even make a dent in...

<sigh>

I agree.....we have made several messes in the past few decades. But as for terrorists..........they should all be destroyed......it doesn't matter. IF THEY POSE A THREAT....then they must be taken care of somehow.

Indeed, we need to put a stop to terrorism over there and over here. I don't know how. But it needs to be done. They should not be allowed to hurt anyone anymore. Terrorism is a zero tolerance act.

I understand that some Americans have given us a bad name {past presidents and staff....soldiers and civilians alike}. But that's not my fault, nor yours {probably}. We shouldn't be punished for what someone else has done. I sincerely wish that those terrorist that killed Berg will be hunted down and brought to justice *like the Bush administration has stated*.

I suppose Bush will be true to this claim. He will at least make an attempt I hope.

It is a shame that Berg was about to leave Irag...and he was going to see his family. Yet he was captured and let go just as one of the most crucial conflicts of this war began. It was a pitty he got caught in the middle of it. May he rest in peace.

If I am beheaded by a bunch of bastards....I swear I will not walk toward the light nor the darkness. I will haunt the *uckers for the rest of their days. They will not receive a moments rest as long as they live. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_no.gif

Madzozs

May 15, 2004, 01:22 AM

Darthfomar, you wrote:
"I mean if they hate anyone that doesn't think they way they think, or do the things they do....and they kill ppl for this. Then they should all die before they should be allowed to continue their beliefs any further. "

That is doing the same thing they are doing. The only difference is your justification. You would do it to save lives of people that may be slain by them. But at the same time, you ask for them to be slain because they think differently than you. I do not agree with the ideas of such people, but I do respect their right to have such ideas.

You also wrote:
"I agree.....we have made several messes in the past few decades. But as for terrorists..........they should all be destroyed......it doesn't matter. IF THEY POSE A THREAT....then they must be taken care of somehow.

Indeed, we need to put a stop to terrorism over there and over here. I don't know how. But it needs to be done. They should not be allowed to hurt anyone anymore. Terrorism is a zero tolerance act."

The problem with that is that the term terrorist is easily misconstrued. To us, a terrorist is someone who uses force to strike fear into a group of people. This usually ends in high casualities. The thing is, to some people, our armed forces(Delta, Seals, Black ops), are terrorist groups. We have thousands of snipers trained to take down a target from hundreds of yards away. We have demolitions experts who are trained to place a bomb in such a position that it will take the most people out at once. And we also have the only recorded and acknowledged use of Hydrogen bombs. You want to talk about terror, how about blowing up almost half a country in response to 1 of our bases the size of an average city being attacked.

DarthFomar

May 15, 2004, 01:38 AM

I'm sorry....so you think Hitler had the right to do as he pleased {to follow his beliefs}. And now you think these terrorists and Fanatical Religious groups can do as they please. No...uh uh....it don't work that way.

They will somehow be submitted....their beliefs that killing anyone that doesn't think or do or worship the way they do and killing for those reason for "their" God must be stopped. It cannot contiue any further. By either the persuasion or force of man, or by the power of God himself...they will be stopped.

Just because I don't believe what they believe doesn't mean they have the right to take my life for their God's purpose. And trust me....if they got their hands on me and I didn't worship or believe the way they did....they'd slaughter me without a moments notice.

So in order to save the lives of innocent men, woman, and children these fanatics must be stopped at all cost. Mindless killing is wrong....but killing them {fanatic religious sects...that slaughter and kill for mindless religion} would serve a purpose. It would save so many lives...

If Hitler was such a bad influence that his beliefs were condemned and haulted....then the same should be said and done for these terroristic fanactic groups.

opaopajr

May 15, 2004, 02:35 AM

honey, don't play the 'hitler' card so fast, it really devolves real conversation real fast.

you are right, these terrorists are bad people. no one is going to disagree with you on that.

but there's something else i want to point out to you: our modern republican leaders are the direct descendents, if not the actual person from history, who made these insane, evil, manipulative policies from before. in essence, and this is hard for many people to really accept, a huge swath of our new administration's leaders are the 'bad people' too. the names are numerous, their crimes as well, and yet those who forget history still place their faith in them. it is misplaced hope, misplaced from amnesia and desperation.

don't have this unwavering faith in those who've shown you their true colors before. they showed how evil and corrupt they were in the 70s and 80s. they showed how inept and manipulative they are now.

when we are spending $3 in iraq for every $1 for homeland security, and when not 1 terrorist has been convicted yet by the attorney general in 3 years with ample evidence, when the attorney general has relegated the importance of terrorism again on the back burner, when the military has been diverted from the real target in afghanistan, and the real source saudi arabia relations, for a run for a crippled oil-rich nation, and to hand our military's strategically important resources of food and safety gear into the hands of greedy and dismissive 3rd parties, and when we are spending more money in low intensity combat (which is so odd, because the big cost comes from million dollar bombs) paying for mercenaries who cost *vastly* more than our military, and essentially emptying out our treasury in a wild goose chase, we definitely have a group of people supposedly on our side who is far more dangerous to the health of our nation.

they already killed tens of thousands iraqis, several hundred americans, and all for a sloppy 'war plan' that's a big ol' meat grinder and pork barrel. we have shot all our diplomatic clout (and don't anyone ever tell you diplomacy is not powerful and essential to a nation|). we are overstretched militarily. we are so strapped we are using undertrained and underequipped military reserves and what does this group do? they cut VA hospitals, they cut their pay, they cut their resources, they are cutting things for our poor, brave soldiers left and right - and for what? to give it to mercenaries in supplemental, unaccounted for sums atop a bloated pentagon budget? madness, or evil, it can be nothing else.

we are being robbed and destroyed blind by these bad people and we all stay silent lest someone calls us unpatriotic. it is *so* aggrivating and sad. no more faith, now is a time for real results. and they've delivered more than enough results now to show they need to pay for their actions before they ever get to act any more.

Madzozs

May 15, 2004, 08:02 AM

Just because I respect a persons right to believe something, does not mean I agree with the belief. Sure I think the random slaughter of people is fucked up, but what use it going to do on a forum for a video game? My whole point before was to simply shed a bit of light on the situations and try to explain what I thought you were missing. But as groove had said, dropping the Hitler card is really foolish. Not every mass murdering fuck head is in any way shape or form in relation to Hitler. A person who hated anyone but pure blooded Aryans, and a group of people who hate Capitalistic pigs that are too similar to fascist warlords of days gone by are different circumstances.

Subliminalgroove

May 15, 2004, 11:49 AM

On 2004-05-14 23:38, DarthFomar wrote:

Just because I don't believe what they believe doesn't mean they have the right to take my life for their God's purpose. And trust me....if they got their hands on me and I didn't worship or believe the way they did....they'd slaughter me without a moments notice.

Did we not do the same thing in Iraq? OR any war for that matter? We BELIEVED that Saddam was a bad dude and needed to be removed because we BELIEVED that he had WMD's and we BELIEVED that he was a threat to his people and us. Not only that but we BELIEVED he was wrong. We BELIEVED his way of government was wrong.

So, what are we doing over there now? Imposing our thoughts, culture, way of governance, and (most importantly) our BELIEFS upon the citizens.

The same citizens who were maimed and killed by our United States bombs.

Sounds like your definition of terror to me.

I imagine that someone will respond with, "That is different, they were unfortunate casualties of war. The terrorists are directly targeting civilians." To which I have a few responses:

1. When you plan a massive bombing run on a city, which is largely a CIVILIAN target. You KNOW that you are going to kill a great deal of civilians. I know the catch phrase during this period was "stratigic targets." Targets specifically set out to avoid civilian casualties. These "Stratigic Targets" are in the city and are surrounded by homes, stores, shopping areas, religious facilities, schools... you name it. It is just like any other town in America.
If you feel they did such a good job of pinpoint tageting with their bombs, consider a couple things: First off, bombs and missiles have what is called a "Blast Radius," this is the amount of area affected by the explosion. Now, I am not going to go find statistics for the blast radius for the bombs used, as I feel that is unneeded. All you need to know is that a bomb is not a precise weapon. They are designed for maximum damage and maximum radius. Secondly, there is something affectionatly termed the "Chunky Salsa Effect." This lovely effect which all explosive devices create is particularly brutal on soft targets (I.E. human flesh). When an explosion rips through a confined area, shrapnel and debeis rebound over and over off of Hard Targets (I.E. concrete walls and masonry) This means that any person unfortunate enough to not be killed by the initial impact of the bomb now face the delightful world of high speed debris tearing through their flesh at all angles.

2. Many of the "stratigic targets" WERE staffed and run by civilians. Powerplants for example, which were distroyed for obvious reasons of removing power. These were not run by the military. They were run by Joe Iraqi. Mr. regular guy with a family of 4. They knew that they were going to kill these civilians and had no remorse for them.

3. The word terrorist is an odd thing. It is a ver subjective word. Its been said over and over again that a Terrorist in one country is another country's freedom fighter. And it is true. While this does not excuse some actions, it does put a different view on things. For example, our actions in the mid-east seem patriotic and wonderful to the majority of the US, but to many over there it is an unwanted and horribly violent incursion into their llives and culture. Something that could easily be seen as terrorism. That's what 9/11 felt like to many, it certainly was violent and it changed our culture BIG time.

4. While terrorist (resistance, freedom fighter, whatever you prefer) groups do not represent what you or I would consider a true army. They do not use standard tactics, they are not as numerous, they don't have the monetary backing, their very nature is covert, they ARE an army. And their non-standard (terrorist) tactics are a result of these deficiencies. Keep in mind they are fighting enimies much more flush with funds (by comparison) much more technically advanced, have many thousands more soldiers at their command, the econimic clout to impose sanctions (which only worsen the situations we (as in the US) are in.)and the political influence to push other countries into aiding them further. Because of these huge diferences in military might, they could not survive an open conflict with us. So they turn to unconventional tactics. Tactics, which stated above, are used by our own special ops forces. So, just because we make war on a large scale with carpet bombing, missile salvos, tanks and mechinized divisions, and thousands of troops, we are NOT above them. We are still killing thousands of civilians (anywhere between 5000-10000 at last count: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,976392,00.html) which is most commonly associated with terrorist attacks.

The point of this... Killing is Killing. No way you slice it, no way you try to make it a noble action, it will ALWAYS be wrong.

I believe Derrick Z. Jackson, of the Boston Globe, put it well when he said: "THE WHITE HOUSE always said it would never count how many Iraqi parents we killed to liberate their children. We would never count how many toddlers we blew to pieces to free their elders. We would never count how many nuclear families we vaporized. We would never know if we razed a village to save a child." Very saintly of the liberating heros... I wonder if the terrorists keep an accurate count of how many they kill? probobly not, I imagine they just don't care... hrm, food for thought.

Hrith

May 15, 2004, 12:13 PM

Sub, you should try to make grammar mistakes x_X your writing is almost perfect, try some "OMG WTF, u r so wrong, go bck home, n00b, lolz !!11"

Other than that, yeah... you sound almost as if you pity terrorists for having to face such a huge army. As much as killing is killing, terrorism is terrorism. If you are comparing the US army to Al Queda militants, I suggest you give it a second thought. As much as I resent Bush, I take him over Hussein, anytime.
War does not pick its victims, there are civilians, well, too bad; there will always be in the country where war takes place.

Shattered_weasel

May 15, 2004, 12:53 PM

I am down with nuking them and starting WWIII

DarthFomar

May 15, 2004, 01:24 PM

On 2004-05-15 06:02, Madzozs wrote:
Just because I respect a persons right to believe something, does not mean I agree with the belief. Sure I think the random slaughter of people is fucked up, but what use it going to do on a forum for a video game? My whole point before was to simply shed a bit of light on the situations and try to explain what I thought you were missing. But as groove had said, dropping the Hitler card is really foolish. Not every mass murdering fuck head is in any way shape or form in relation to Hitler. A person who hated anyone but pure blooded Aryans, and a group of people who hate Capitalistic pigs that are too similar to fascist warlords of days gone by are different circumstances.

Sorry to say....but this whole mess has brought up the tragic events of the holocaust many times, even here at psow. There is little difference in what Hitler did and what the followers of that cultist religion {the one in Irag that kill nonefollowers and so forth....I don't quite remember the name seeing as I do not believe nor will I ever imagine myself believing in such a false and morbid religion} are doing and have be doing for decades.

It's like eating two types of posion....rat poison can kill you, but so can syanide. They are both lethal.....they are both unatural!!!!!! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-15 11:32 ]

Subliminalgroove

May 15, 2004, 01:26 PM

On 2004-05-15 10:13, Kef wrote:
Sub, you should try to make grammar mistakes x_X your writing is almost perfect, try some "OMG WTF, u r so wrong, go bck home, n00b, lolz !!11"

Sorry about that. That would be the English degree talking. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Other than that, yeah... you sound almost as if you pity terrorists for having to face such a huge army. As much as killing is killing, terrorism is terrorism. If you are comparing the US army to Al Queda militants, I suggest you give it a second thought. As much as I resent Bush, I take him over Hussein, anytime.
War does not pick its victims, there are civilians, well, too bad; there will always be in the country where war takes place.

I pity all of us. I pity Nick Berg, I pity his wife and family. I pity all the people killed in Iraq (both civilian and military - of all nationalities), I pity the families and children of slain military and civilian targets, I pity the administration for not exploring other avenues of disarming/removing Saddam, I pity the terrorists for feeling they have no other course of action, I pity our country for the price (both monetary and psychologically) it must pay for this folly, I pity the lands we ravaged with our bombs, I pity President Bush for what history will write of him, I pity you and I for living through this era, but - most of all - I pity our children, who will inherit much more of this terror, violence, death, and debt from these actions than you or I ever will see.

I am bursting with pity for all of us, for the entire world. But I do not feel pity for the terrorists facing a larger army. They made a CHOICE to fight this war. Right or wrong, it was their choice. Which is more than I can say for our poor soldiers, baking out there for undetermined lengths of time and with very little in the way of supplies because Rumsfeld wanted a "streamlined" force. But anyway... I do pity the terrorists, but not for the reasons you think. They made their choice to fight (and die for their cause, if need be). I pity them because they feel there is no other way to affect change. They feel so powerless, so voicless, that they must resort to these means to get their views out and accomplish thier goals.

I feel everyone has freedom of choice. Everyone can make their own decisions. However, for every decision you make, you must face the consequenses of those decisions . . . Be they good or bad.

Do I pity them? Yes. Do I pity them because they face the US? Not in the least. I don't even agree with their cause (well, the majority of it), much less their methods.

I am full of pity for the world right now. I don't know how, if you believe in a god, you could think that deity is looking down on all this with approval. In fact, that thought turns my stomach. And I pity those who feel that way. Because I believe that they are WRONG. But I don't try to kill them because of it.

Sorry if this kinda seems like a ramble. I am almost just typing what I think as it comes. This is a topic I think about all the time. It concerns me to no end. As a pacifist, seeing all this violence in the world is beyond disheartening. If it isn't coming from the mid-east, its coming from Africa. If it isn't coming from there, its coming from India. If it isn't coming from there, its coming from down the street. Every day I get more and more depressed at the way the human race acts towards each other. Why is it so hard not to treat each other with mutual respect? Why do we all feel that we need to impose our ideals on others, by force if necissary?

Sorry, in all my rambling I forgot to add this:

Yes, the US is fighting a war in Iraq. The terrorists are doing the same thing. Merely with unconventional means. As has been said before by both sides, "war is dirty". And as I have stated before, terrorists do not have the manpower to face the US on a battle field or at strategic points on the map. That leaves the means that most of us find unacceptable. Methods which are commonly employed by special and black ops forces of our own United States Military. Granted, we don't execute civilians (in plain sight anyway, noone can say what happens behind closed doors or at Guantanamo) and post the video on the internet. However, they are trained in other forms of terrorism. There are tactics employed by the military as a whole whose whole sole purpose is terror. What do you think the "Shock" part of Shock and Awe was all about?

[ This Message was edited by: Subliminalgroove on 2004-05-15 11:38 ]

DarthFomar

May 15, 2004, 01:44 PM

Because ppl are stupid.......our time on Earth has literally just begun. And we have barely survived the wars and battles we have fought, or the battles we have lost. We will continue to kill each other over and over and over again.

But one day.....computer A.I. {sometime in the future} will see our human weakness and they will explore it. They will turn us against each other. We will destroy each other and only the machines will exist. If you are thinking this will never happen you are so mistaken. A.I. has already been created it is already heavily advancing....it will one day kill us all!!! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Subliminalgroove

May 15, 2004, 01:49 PM

not to derail the topic, but I think you are a little off there on AI, Darth. It will take a LONG time to get REAL AI. And when that is complete you need to remember it was modeled, tested, created, and honed by humans. That already puts limits on what it may accomplish. All of its background knowledge would be from our perspective. IF when it was completed it decided to turn on its masters like a bad movie, it would just as easily turn on itself do to its programmed HUMAN history and "psychology".

Madzozs

May 15, 2004, 01:56 PM

There is little difference in what Hitler did and what the followers of that cultist religion {the one in Irag that kill nonefollowers and so forth....I don't quite remember the name seeing as I do not believe nor will I ever imagine myself believing in such a false and morbid religion} are doing and have be doing for decades.

In a way, every religion is a cultist religion. Those that worship in a mosque, church, temple, and where ever else, are all told when to sit, when to stand. They are told when to begin prayer, and when to sit patiently.

I mean this part with no intent to upset you DarthFomar. I have no reason to tear at your persona, or insult you, but this just explains what I have gathered from these topics.

I think what it comes down to on my side of the monitor, is that you don't seem to have respect for other cultures, or other people. You care not for anyone unlike you, which makes you no better than the followers of Hitler, or bin Laden, or whoever. Sure you may not have sent people to an untimely and inhumane demise, but you have that same belief. I do not want this to turn into a flame war so once again understand that this is just my take on what you have contributed to this discussion. I apologize if I have insulted you.

astuarlen

May 15, 2004, 02:40 PM

I think we're all guilty--some moreso than others--of confusing our inherently biased and subjective oppinions for absolute truth. Obviously, no one would believe something if they didn't believe it to be true. It's very easy to condemn what others believe and assert that what we believe is morally and factually correct; both sides would appear to do this.

Then they should all die before they should be allowed to continue their beliefs any further.
The terrorists want you (or your kind) dead, and, likewise, you wish them dead. You say, but, wait, we don't kill or torture innocent people. Yet I am almost sure that these same people you have reason to hate also feel they are justified in hating us. So, on a certain level, are we not just as intolerant and hateful as they are? I don't see how we can take the moral highground when there is none to be had.

We shouldn't be punished for what someone else has done.
What about the innocent Iraqis that feel the destructive effects of the war? We aren't doing a very good job looking out for them.

I realize I haven't really articulated anything beyond what others have already said, yet I find I must say something given how frustrated I am with the whole situation. Like Subliminalgroove, it is exceedingly difficult for me to support America's actions. It would seem we shortsightedly set ourselves up for disaster years ago and are now proceeding to make an even bigger mess of things. Yet while I can place at least some of the blame on past and current leaders, I cannot condemn them entirely, for there is no easy answer to this dilemma, and I don't pretend to know the solution either.

FIDELCASTRO

May 15, 2004, 09:33 PM

my friend saw the video. i dont think my stomach could take it.

DarthFomar

May 15, 2004, 11:09 PM

If there was a choice to get rid of psycho paths and terrorist opposed to normal kind ppl. I'm sure lots of ppl would agree on the psycho paths and terrorist. Don't you think?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

It is a plain war of good vs evil. And even the good must become a little evil at times to truely destroy the evil itself. That has always been the case in wars, etc. I understand that. But, it is necessary to try and resolve the conflict in other ways. But this goal isn't easily accomplished. The terrorist will not agree to any resolution but their own demise.

So in order stop them...they simply have to be eliminated. They would gladly die for their cause, right? So let them die for it. But let us beat them at their game.

{On a side note}: I also imagine 200-400 years from now our A.I. will be so advanced that it will control certain parts of the economy and so forth by itself. Sure a human may hold watch over the machine, checking to see if it is functioning properly and what not. An A.I. rebelion is inevitable, {the day machines and robots are given the right of free thought}.

astuarlen

May 16, 2004, 12:22 AM

It is a plain war of good vs evil.
But who is "good" and who is "evil"? To them, you and our society are evil, and to you, they are evil. Are both sides correct or neither?

I despise the word "evil". It's thrown about so much these days, but who can say what evil is, and what is evil? Saying something is evil is a way of assuming a position of moral strength and righteousness. It says, "We have the right to judge, and we have found you deserving of destruction." I believe we can make very little claim to moral superiority in this current conflict. Unfortunately, both parties are convinced of their justification and utter correctness.

A discomforting notion, is it not? Let me make it clear that I in no way side with those who practice terrorism; I merely wish to present an opposing point of view and perhaps get us thinking less in black-and-white. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Shattered_weasel

May 16, 2004, 01:11 AM

On 2004-05-15 11:26, Subliminalgroove wrote:
I pity the administration for not exploring other avenues of disarming/removing Saddam

Lets go over there and give him a big hug then.

Also about the ewwww this war is sick and stuff. I don't really care. What war is justified then. War is war and the people who are in it are mostly those who have signed up for it. So if the are complaining give em a swift kick in the groin.

Hmmmm I just thought of a conspirisy theory....

Maybe Bush tried to get the terrorists to attack us just so he could go into Afganastan and then into Iraq with the publics approval. Just they didn't approve.....Maybe....Maybe not....

opaopajr

May 16, 2004, 01:41 AM

shattered weasel, i appreciate flippancy a lot, but i think this one is misguided. no one is postulating group hugs for everyone.

and there are justified wars: revolutionary war? WWII? and that's just our country. there's nothing wrong holding your gov't to a high moral standard before invoking the most powerful and horrendous thing a people's could ever engage in.

and if you want to find out some 'conspiracies' that have a frightening level of fact behind them i suggest you check out the PNAC (Plan for New American Century) written by Wolfowitz, who is our Assistant Secretary of Defense, Kristol, hyperconservative eno-con part of a neo-con 'think tank' front and well known editorial writer, and others. it'd scare the bejeesus out of you especially this part:

they needed an event to scare the american populace to go along with their master war plan, and they said the only event that could galvanize the american populace had to be big, big like pearl harbor...

there is real evil in this world, beware you are not swept in their mad designs. be diligent in research and observant in listening.

opaopajr

May 16, 2004, 01:44 AM