Contemporary Issues. [Archive]

Ness

Jun 4, 2004, 03:40 PM

On 2004-06-04 12:50, ABDUR101 wrote:
You know, a lot of the topics you have up for discussion are things that always end in a flamewar. And I'm sure you know which I'm talking about, as you've seen it happen before.

I'll say this, if you enter this thread, and you're going to be an ass, or totally ignore other people's viewpoints, don't even bother replying. Ignorant comments, and anything that breaks any of the rules, will merit an instant official warning, or more, depending on the severity.

Keep an open mind if you're going to discuss things which others hold importance in.

But also keep in mind that being "open-minded" is a two way street. If someone does not like gay marriages or is against abortions, flaming them and labeling them as "narrowminded" is not the way to convert them to your point of view. In order to have a healthy topic, we must respect the views of everyone, right or wrong.

I agree with Armok. I too would rather live on Mars than the moon because it will be easier to terraform than our moon.

[ This Message was edited by: Ness on 2004-06-04 13:41 ]

AquaFlare7

Jun 4, 2004, 04:05 PM

-Gay rights
I wont state what I want too, but rather that it "goes against everything I believe in". While I'm at it can I fall in love with a donkey and get married? Sudom and Gomorrah once got in trouble for this one >_<

-Foolish Lawsuits
Greed or just plain mean, maybe both?

-George Bush
I believe in him

-The War in Iraq and the War on Terror
We have to do something right?

-Obsession with Appearance
I don't agree with it, however it has become almost a requirement in todays age to get anywhere. I am guilty of this and many other obssesions >_<

-Abortions
I am on the fence with this one. If it is a rape situation then I might feel it to be ok, however if it was just an accident of "lude behavior" then I cannot condone it.

-Separation of Church and State
Should never have been imposed.

[ This Message was edited by: AquaFlare7 on 2004-06-04 15:07 ]

Ness

Jun 4, 2004, 04:21 PM

Gay rights-

I'm all for them. It's about time they started being treated equally.

MTV/BET

I don't like either of them. They establish stereotypes that are harmful to African Americans.

Foolish Lawsuits

I think some people are jsut looking for money, or they are incredibly stupid.

George Bush

I don't like him or the way he's running the country. He needs to concentrate more on domestic issues instead of involving himself with other nations.

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror

Removing Saddam was a good thing, but it was not our job to do so.
I don't not believe that we have the right to impose our government on other nations.

Affirmative Action

I think it's still necessary. As long as we live in a nation that wants to discriminate, affirmative action should remain intact.

Space Travel

I love it.

Mars and Moon Colonies

It needs to be done. Right now all our eggs are in one basket. If Earth goes, so will we.

Obsession with Appearance

People need to chill out.

Abortions

It's her body and she can do what she wants.

Separation of Church and State

The more the better.

Aliens

I think know they exist.

astuarlen

Jun 4, 2004, 04:41 PM

Gay rights...
Are way overdue.

Modern Religion
Believe what you like so long as you aren't hurting anyone.

MTV/BET
TV rots your brain, I say! Read a book. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Foolish Lawsuits
There will always be idiots who want to exploit the legal system, and there will always be those who want to exploit the former.

Contemporary Art
I detest modern "art" that consists of such brilliant things as piles of smelly shoes, blank canvases, dead animals, etc...

George Bush
Don't like what he has done, but I can't say I hate him either. There are those who could've done better and those who could've done worse.

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror
http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_no.gif We've gone too far.

Affirmative Action
Not the best solution, but we can't cure discrimination in a day, so this can be a temporary measure.

Space Travel
There are better places our money could be going.

Mars and Moon Colonies
Same as previous.

Pop Culture
Don't like it, but everyone has a right to their own tastes in music, movies, clothes, etc.

Obsession with Appearance
Silly people, maybe someday you will understand.

Abortions
Are something I am opposed to on moral grounds, just like the death penalty. Life is too valuable!

Separation of Church and State
A good thing, but let's not take it to extremes, such as preventing people from wearing religious clothing at school, etc.

The Paranormal
I've never experienced anything of the kind, so I am doubtful but unsure.

Aliens
If the universe is infinitely large, there must be other intelligent life out there.

Nai_Calus

Jun 4, 2004, 04:52 PM

Gay rights

My father is a pre-op MtF transsexual. I'm bisexual and transgendered. Many of my friends are gay.

HELL FUCK YES I support gay rights/gay marriage/transgendered/transsexual rights.

I wonder how many of the 'It's unholy!' 'It goes against nature!' 'It goes against everything I believe in!' people would feel the same if it were THEIR parents, or THEIR sister/brother, or even them.

Modern Religion

I will not say that religion is total shit, because while I put no faith in any of it, it does give people the all-important 'something to believe in' factor in their lives. And there are churches that are open and accepting of all people - My dad is very religious, and she goes to church, openly, as a woman. Everyone there knows. Almost nobody gives a shit. The ones that do, accept it. And last year my dad confessed to me that she had been on the verge of suicide, literally about to do it, when she stopped himself because the thought suddenly occured to her that "Oh man, Pastor Barbara is going to be pissed". They'd been talking about things, PB had to go out of town and had previously made her promise to call her if she felt like doing anything like that. No matter what I might feel about its validity, or the closed-minded members of the church who make all the others look bad... I can't just dismiss it, because without the church I would no longer have a father.

MTV/BET

Pure, utter shit.

Foolish Lawsuits

See MTV/BET.

Contemporary Art

More pure, utter shit. Sometimes literally.

George Bush

He's an idiot with hateful views, but I think we all know damn well that he's not the one running the country.

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror

Pure bullshit. Yes, let's take preemptive action, which we have never done before, and throw away years of goodwill with our allies. And 'terror' is not something you can declare war on.

Affirmative Action

Bullshit, plain and simple.

Space Travel

Why the FUCK isn't it commercial yet?

Mars and Moon Colonies

You're thinking too locally. But of the two, Mars.

Pop Culture

Do NOT get me started on this. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Obsession with Appearance

There are times when I utterly hate women. >_>

Abortions

Woman's body, woman's choice, and the last thing the world needs is another homeless unwanted kid when we already have millions of those.

Separation of Church and State

Good idea, too bad people are trying to get rid of it. Do you really want to pay taxes to the Catholic Church like people used to do? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

The Paranormal

*hums X-files theme* Sure.

Aliens

Motherfucking DUH, man.

Kent

Jun 4, 2004, 05:09 PM

Gay Rights: They're people, too, give them their rights.

Separation of Church and State: They need to be separated. [further comments witheld, seeing as anything I say about religion is considered offensive, true or not]

Aliens: You've got to be pretty dense if you deny the possibility of them existing.

Space Travel/Planetary Colonization: There's already a spaceport being made in Mojave, and our planet's too packed, so let's start trashing and overpopulating other planets already.

Paranormal: I've seen paranormal stuff, so it's true that it happens, whether you like it or not. Investigation time.

Obession with Appearance: If you're obsessed with appearance, I pity you.

Foolish Lawsuits: If you neglect something, you're just asking to be sued over it, trivial, obvious, or otherwise.

Modern Religion: Where's the Delete key when you need it? [further comments witheld, seeing as anything I say about religion is considered offensive, true or not]

MTV: MTV is the AOL of TV channels. Enough said.

Abortion: See also: Murder

Contemporary Art: Everyone has their own definition of "art." "If at first you don't succeed, redefine success" fits nicely here.

Pop Culture: Sucks. Ever notice how nothing good is really popular?

I think that about sums it up...

Ness

Jun 4, 2004, 05:11 PM

I agree awith you on the issure of terror. As long as there are different opinions and people willing to die for them, there will be terrorism.

George Bush

He's an idiot with hateful views, but I think we all know damn well that he's not the one running the country.

Eh? I don't get this statement. Could ytou elaborate a bit?

Also, I think Affirmative Action is necessary because we still live in a nation that likes to discriminate.

Nambrosia

Jun 4, 2004, 05:16 PM

Gay rights
-I'm for them. Already I kinda bristle whenever someone uses 'gay' to describe something they don't like :/

Modern Religion
-If it doesn't harm anyone else, fine.

MTV/BET
-Can't say much here, I never watch those channels. I'm usually watching the Science channel http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Foolish Lawsuits
-I detest foolish/frivolous lawsuits. While the suit itself might be funny at first (Stuff like 'no warning label that I shouldn't dry my hair in the bathtub' stuff), you then realise that the people suing are either greedy or stupid :|

Contemporary Art
-I don't really know what that is. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

George Bush
-I support him. Not in all areas, but I support him, and have since the start. Just wish I was voting age though..

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror
-I was for it from the start. Although I can see it from another's perspective.

Affirmative Action
-If descrimination exists, so should affirmative action.

Space Travel
-I'm all for this.

Mars and Moon Colonies
-We might need to leave Earth someday, so I feel we should be thinking about this as well.

Pop Culture
-To each their own.

Obsession with Appearance
-I don't really have this. I don't really have a hair style, nor do I have a style in clothing.

Abortions
-For it.

Separation of Church and State
-I agree with this. However sometimes it can go too far.

The Paranormal
-I completely believe in this. (Which is a problem considering the rest of my family does _NOT_ :/ )I myself believe I saw two 'shadow-people', and I'm almost positive there's a ghost in my computer room.

Aliens
-I find it ludicrous to believe there's no chance an alien race could have come to our neck of the woods by now.

Ness

Jun 4, 2004, 05:20 PM

I too believe in the paranormal, but not so much in ghosts. My paranormal beliefs come from believing in telekinesis and precognition.

KodiaX987

Jun 4, 2004, 08:47 PM

Gay rights
Yes, it's about time they get them. And please, don't but those guys on the same level as bestiality, which is a completely other subject.

Modern Religion
I steer away from religion whenever I can. You know the modern drill: "My God is stronger than yours! I will blow you up!"

MTV/BET
I didn't care about MTV before and I still don't... No opinion on it. Although, Celebrity Deathmatch was a fun thing to watch.

Foolish Lawsuits
By all means, find a way to stop them!! As it is now, I bet I could sue the pavement and win!

Contemporary Art
There's a lot of sub-categories in that and it doesn't matter to me anyways. I either like the pictures or I don't. It doesn't get any simpler than this.

George Bush
Replace him. Now. O_O

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror
Yay to the initiative. Yuck to the methods employed.

Affirmative Action
Teh what? Is that some other PC term I don't know about yet?

Space Travel
Bah, it's gonna take a while before we get to that. With the nearest solar system being 4.3 light years away, we're still quite far away from journeying to new worlds!

Mars and Moon Colonies
Could work... But then, who wants to live on a gray or a red rock?

Pop Culture
I try to steer away from all "pop" things. o_O

Obsession with Appearance
Bad. Really, really bad. Hell, present yourself to me without any makeup. Nowadays, whenever I see a girl with lots of makeup on, I think "she must look like hell without it..."

Abortions
Give 'em the right to it. America is supposed to equal freedom of choice, dammit.

Separation of Church and State
By all means, YES! Religion has been a hinderance to the state for 99% of the world's history, and I don't see that changing now.

The Paranormal
I believe in pretty much most of it. Telekinesis, remote viewing, spirit guides, astral projections, you name it. I'm not into the more specific belief systems (like paganism or wicca or new age) but I always keep an eye on the discussion forums. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Aliens
There has to be at least some inhabitable planet somewhere. I mean, come on...

Aunt_Betty

Jun 4, 2004, 09:44 PM

Gay rights
They pay taxes, isn't that what the goverment cares about anyway? Let them get arried. It doesn't effect anyone but future taxes.

Modern Religion
Their life. Let them do what they want.

MTV/BET
Worst T.V. shows ever.

Foolish Lawsuits
That law where if you get injured in a persons home and your a theif-get it out. It's your falut that your in there anyway.

Contemporary Art
It's art.

George Bush
Don't care.

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror
Let them beat the shit out of each other. Only minor operations should take place.

Affirmative Action
Yes.

Space Travel
With future population yes. Well try it first.

Mars and Moon Colonies
I need more data.

Pop Culture
They are teenagers. They'll grow out of it eventually. I like some of it.

Obsession with Appearance
They want to look like shit? Let them be.

Abortions
Only if you we're raped/sexualy violated.

Separation of Church and State
Yes. However people with the gay marriges can't figure it out.

The Paranormal
Don't know what it is.

Aliens
If the unvierse is so big-why just one race?

BlackRose

Jun 4, 2004, 10:32 PM

I think Ness just wants his name on a 10-page thread, that's my view on that issue.

Anyway... I think most of those issues will be unanimous here. I've never heard anyone, anytime disagree directly over a lot of them. They've been "discussed"... quickly agree on the basic topic, then argue about who's open-minded and who's not. I guess if you want to do it again, it's no skin off mine. =)

Dangerous55

Jun 5, 2004, 02:16 AM

Meh, I didnt want to do this but I am bored.

Gay rights

Whatever. Let them have what they want, I see both sides of the argument.

Modern Religion

Do what you want just don't force it on anyone else.

MTV/BET

Watch it or not, who cares?

Foolish Lawsuits

If their foolish, there stupid and useless, but who decides if their foolish?

Contemporary Art

Look at it if you like it. Shut up about it if you don't.

George Bush

Good man. To call him a hate-filled idiot is well, idiotic. You can disagree with him all you want, that is a good thing. Although when you start spitting out bullshit about how he is Hitler, or how he will start wars for oil or money then you have crossed the line into moron. At the very least you have to respect him for following through and actually commiting himself to what he says.

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror

I don't think anyone disagrees with the War on Terror. Alot do with Iraq though, in varied forms. I really don't care why we are there, but if it takes out a tyrant and will enrich the world then good.

Affirmative Action

It is the definition of racism.

Space Travel

Of course.

Mars and Moon Colonies

Of course.

Pop Culture

Who cares?

Obsession with Appearance

Ok?

Abortions

I don't think the baby should be killed, just put to some use.

Separation of Church and State

Of course, but if an entire class or school is ok with religion then it should be allowed in school. In limited forms. Having a law suit because a teacher said a prayer in the morning is BS.

The Paranormal

You can't say it does or doesnt exist, for sure.

Aliens

Of course.

Ness

Jun 5, 2004, 06:06 AM

On 2004-06-04 20:32, BlackRose wrote:
I think Ness just wants his name on a 10-page thread, that's my view on that issue.

Anyway... I think most of those issues will be unanimous here. I've never heard anyone, anytime disagree directly over a lot of them. They've been "discussed"... quickly agree on the basic topic, then argue about who's open-minded and who's not. I guess if you want to do it again, it's no skin off mine. =)

Nah, I just wanted to have a thread wjhere people could voice their opinions without getting the thread locked.

noob-of-fury

Jun 5, 2004, 06:25 AM

MTV/BET:
The banes of my existance... at least two of them. They drive what I like to call 'Shit Culture.' The culture that the businesses want you to live by. I want to get my band to be as popular as possible go on MTV and bitch-slap the host of whatever show I'm on and curse like no sailor ever could. Get the FCC to bankrupt the bastards and kick all of them onto the street. Then I would proceed to make them dress up in Flamingo costumes and dance in a Gay bar for quarters for 30 years.

Abortions

Even though there are some people I think ought to be aborted the whole issue is riddled with controversy. I personally think that if it's a rape, go for it. The emotional scars would just sit there because you'd think... that kid is the spawn of someone who hurt me. That's not good for you or the kid. If you were just getting drunk with some friends and, whoops, you came home pregnant it's your own god damned fault and you should deal with the consequences. If it comes down to it, put it up for adoption. This is just another reason to use protection dammit. Teens getting pregnant all the time, what the fuck. Use your brains dipshits.

Obsession with Appearance

I don't know why people have this strange obsession with appearances. What matters is what you do in life not what you look like. For god sakes Paris Hilton is anything but a model, or a sex symbol. She's a malnourished looking slut that has a tendency to look like a total asshat on national television. My best statement to people who have any sort of problem with this type of obsession is what did appearance invent? What did it harvest? What the fuck did it build? Appearance, although nice to look at, has done next to nil for culture/society/life ever so stop worrying about it.

[ This Message was edited by: noob-of-fury on 2004-06-05 04:33 ]

DeathCheese87

Jun 6, 2004, 01:29 AM

Gay rights-Good for them. Just don't make a huge fuss about it and rub it in everyone else's face.

Modern Religion-Faith is important to people. Let them do/believe what they want to a safe extent.

MTV/BET-For the most part, its a whole lot of artless programming. MTV2 is tolerable.

Foolish Lawsuits-Understanding is really weird. Its all a matter of perspective. I know I don't have the brain of a pretentious piece of white trash, but you know.

Contemporary Art-Yay yay yay. All for it.

George Bush-I don't get mixed up in politics.

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror-Eh.

Affirmative Action-What is this?

Space Travel-I don't see the purpose of it right now. Lets just build subterranean human-esque anthills. It would be so much cooler.

Mars and Moon Colonies-We could send stuff like, landfills and cancer and racism to these places. Earth would just be a happy romp-field.

Pop Culture-Its great sometimes, you just have to pull some sort of meaning from it. Not in a good way really, but everyone should learn a lesson from this. You know, fix your kids so they're underground junkies and dont follow the MAINSTREAM MAN. Some people need to cool down about how its messing up our society. Its mainly a big deal about perspective again. I'm not for trashy guys with mesh hats and pants that let the ass flow everywhere.

Obsession with Appearance-Its cool to look cool, SUCKA. Its nice to feel nice and feeling nice can come from looking nice. So why not make yourself feel nice? Don't get me wrong, powder all over your face isn't my forte, mainly because I'm a male. Its just that a shitload of people dress up for attention, which is blablablabla.

Abortions-Save them stem cells, darlin'! Darlene's needin' a new liver due to the boozin'.

Separation of Church and State-Charlemagne kicked ass.

The Paranormal-Ghosts are really stupid. So are werewolves. And other things that are stupid. Um.

Aliens-They're either really hyper intelligent, or they're really really lame like us.

Yeah, I have nothing better to do!

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 01:46 AM

I'll go with the "Mars and Moon Colonies" and "Aliens" categories for now....I'll come back and post on some others later. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

"Mars and Moon Colonies"

Is it even possible?!
It's pretty evident that life did exist several million years ago on Mars, so surely there's got to be proof under the surface. Probably lying deep withing the ground is dna evidence of life forms.

If there is a way to colonize Mars or the Moon.....it would probably be a good thing, there are way to many people on Earth as it is. Somehow, in the next century we need to figure out something....cuz the human population is only going to keep getting bigger and bigger.

"Aliens"

There are probably other species out their in other galaxies....whether they have the ability to travel to Earth or any other planet, I don't know. All the UFO sightings could be false, or maybe just a majority of them are false...maybe aliens have visited Earth?! Who knows, but there are hundreds of galaxies out there.....we can't be the only living beings in the Universe, that's http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

There that's it for today...

I'll voice my stupid nonessential opinions on some of the other topics another time. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 02:31 AM

I will try not to get involved in this, as I have rather strong views, as most of you have seen. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

But I will say this: the abortion thing, from my perspective is not about the death of a fetus or whether it should be considered life. It is about REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS. A woman should NOT have restrictions forced upon their bodies by rich, white, men. See the picture here: http://www.now.org/issues/abortion/111203procedure-ban.html? This was when he signed the bill making "Partial Birth Abortion" (which isn't even a medical term by the way, and the procedure described in the bill IS NOT DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Ask any doctor.) illegal. See any women? I don't. And they are all smirking! ARGH! It makes me want to scream! They might as well sign a bill to put us all barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, awaiting our husbands with a hot meal and a cold beer.

The civil rights movement is about just that, RIGHTS. It has never occured to any of these MEN that if you want to reduce the number of abortions, you should EDUCATE more. And I am not talking about this lame ass abstenance education that many schools are doing. They should support Planned Parenthood. For those of you who think all they do is arrange abortions, walk into one sometime and see what they are REALLY about.

The decisions forced upon our bodies (and they ARE OUR bodies, NOT vessels for the unborn!) are made with too much religion and not enough objective thought. Religion, and even more so, the government has NO place dictating whether I should or should not have a child. One of the signs I saw at the march or women's rights put it well, "Keep your gospel out of my vagina!"

This doesn't mean I agree with abortion, I am merely saying the CHOICE and POSSIBILITY should be there. I don't agree with alot of things that happen in this country, but I understand that they should be there for others.

Ladies, ask yourself, are you merely a walking incubator? A safe plave for your lover to plant his seed and let your body do the rest for 9 months? Guys, look at your ladies and ask yourself: Is this woman a person I care for, or, is she a vessel for my children... I would hope you would see a person, with desires, ambitions, and hopes. Not just a sack of eggs with a cavity to keep a fetus warm.

and that is all I will say on the subject. Thank you for your patience with me.

[ This Message was edited by: Subliminalgroove on 2004-06-06 00:32 ]

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 02:55 AM

On 2004-06-06 00:31, Subliminalgroove wrote:
I am merely saying the CHOICE

This may sound fanboyish and what not...but, literally there is no such thing as choice. Because you already have set in your mind what you are going to *choose*, so the choice has already been made; determined by your personality. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

See....I didn't choose to post this reply, it was destiny so to speak, I was already going to post a reply as soon as I read your post. O_o

*Goes back to playing Splinter Cell and watching the Matrix*

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

But yeah, I agree with you Subliminalgroove, people should be given full rights; not just bits and pieces. But, our world isn't perfect *even though we make it out to be sometimes*.... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

If you think about it, a fetal child a month or so old, is a living being....you'd be killing your son/daughter. You would be killing something you created regardless of intentional/unintentional acts.

Even though it is wrong....I just don't see how someone could ban abortions. Sometimes it's just necessary, you know. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif

Also, don't chew my head off *I need it*, but it sounds like you hate the whole pregnancy ordeal Sublim...do you?! Just asking..... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 03:05 AM

That is an interesting and rather depressing perspective on life there, Darth... I am a firm believer in freedom of choice. The thought that everything is dictated by fate is frightening.

To answer your question... I have no problems with pregnancy. I wish my health were such that I could bring a child into this world and live long enough to raise her (or him). But that doesn't appear to be in the cards for me... That makes me sad, but I have no problems with pregnancy itself.

What I take issue with is the fact that these bills restrict women's reproductive rights. Without those reproductive rights, once there is conception, we become incubators for nine months whether we wish it or not. If we feel that it is not the time, and the condom/pill/spermicide/prayers fail and we have no options, we have become a slave to the fetus. Does that make sense?

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 04:14 AM

On 2004-06-06 01:05, Subliminalgroove wrote:
That is an interesting and rather depressing perspective on life there, Darth... I am a firm believer in freedom of choice. The thought that everything is dictated by fate is frightening.

I knew you'd love it.... hehehe http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

To answer your question... I have no problems with pregnancy. I wish my health were such that I could bring a child into this world and live long enough to raise her (or him). But that doesn't appear to be in the cards for me... That makes me sad, but I have no problems with pregnancy itself.

Kool

That's good....cuz I'm a guy and I can understand the importance of pregnancy....and I don't even have the ability to pop one of them suckers outta my body.... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

What I take issue with is the fact that these bills restrict women's reproductive rights. Without those reproductive rights, once there is conception, we become incubators for nine months whether we wish it or not. If we feel that it is not the time, and the condom/pill/spermicide/prayers fail and we have no options, we have become a slave to the fetus. Does that make sense?

Yeah well what can ya do....?! People do what they can and sometimes it's just not enough or it's too much. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif

If it makes you feel any better....people don't always see pregnant woman as *pregnant*....they see a personality as well. And the outcome of all that stress and time, is well worth it. I mean, c'mon, haven't you *as a girl* ever looked in the mirror and said to yourself "My children will be beautiful"?!

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-06-06 02:15 ]

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 10:23 AM

This why I like these kind of threads. Someone always shows up with an insightful look on something from a perspective that I would have never considered.

@Subby

That's a very interesting way of looking at the issue of abortions. I've never thought of it that way before. Persoanlly, I don't think us men should have any say on this issue because ultimately, we are not the ones having the children. Sure we can express our opinions on it, but I think women should be the only ones allowed to vote on the issue.

@both of you

As for choice, everything is not predetermined. We have freedom of choice, but we are also victims of "cause and effect." Every choice we make, no matter how small, will affect us or someone else somehow. The simple descision of which comb you choose to buy can affect the lives of many. If you buy the comb made in the US, you are supporting US laborers, a group of people that have become neglected in recent times; but if you by the foreign made comb, you are supporting overseas workers that America companies have hired. Now there is nothing wrong with hiring foreigners here in the US, but I think we are doing too much outsourcing. America is firing its customers. Instead of hiring people here in the US companies are starting to go overseas for their employees because they are cheaper. This is another example of cause and effect. If they keep this up, soon there won't be enough Americans to buy their products.

Every choice has an effect, which leads to another choice, which also has an effect. This is the cycle that has gone on for ages and will continue to go on.

[ This Message was edited by: Ness on 2004-06-06 08:25 ]

astuarlen

Jun 6, 2004, 12:35 PM

You bring up some very good points, Subliminalgroove. I can't say I agree or disagree completely, because it's a very difficult topic.

As far as choice goes, unless it's a case of rape, the woman does have a choice whether or not she will have sex. Pregnancy is just one possible outcome of this, so if you're not willing to chance this effect, remove the cause. I could perhaps understand the argument for abortions in the case of rape, but I still run into a personal moral wall because I find it hard to condone what I consider ending a human life. There are a variety of opinions on the subject of when life really begins, but I tend to think that what exists is, if not life itself, a strong possibility of life. I'm not explaining myself very clearly, am I? >_<

This doesn't mean I agree with abortion, I am merely saying the CHOICE and POSSIBILITY should be there.
I like this idea of having a choice that's there even if you don't have to take it. No, the government shouldn't force its "personal" brand of morality on us, but there are matters of "universal" morality (for example, murder and rape are always morally wrong). I guess I'm getting caught on the question of whether or not a "universal", non-religion-based moral standard can be applied to abortion. If I believe abortion is in effect killing an unborn life, then I can't condone it; but if I feel that there is a timeframe in which it's not yet a human life, I will say abortion during this period must be legal. Considering that there hasn't been a consensus of women on this issue, I don't think the government should have the right to ban abortions within a reasonable timeframe. It will have to be a matter of personal decision on the woman's part for now, but I hope everyone considering abortion would think long and hard on the topic, although it would be even better to plan ahead of time.

DarthFomar, you are so negative, aren't you? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif I detest the concept of pre-determined actions; it seems too much like an attempt to shrug off personal responsability, sometimes. Not to mention, it's insanely depressing. >_> As much as our personality dictates our actions, our actions also form our personality, I believe.

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 02:24 PM

I like this idea of having a choice that's there even if you don't have to take it. No, the government shouldn't force its "personal" brand of morality on us, but there are matters of "universal" morality (for example, murder and rape are always morally wrong).

Religion shouldn't force it's morality of us either. Unborn child is at best another organ in the womans body and at worst a parasite. Either way, she should have the right to remove it just like any other organ or parasite. Yes it is true that life begins at conception (life actually begins before conception; the sperm and eggs cells are alive), but human life doesn't begin until birth. Until that baby leaves the mother, it is but an organ (or a parasite).

Why is it just an organ?

1. It is dependent on the mother.

2. If seperated, it will die.

3. Her heart is the fetus's only supply of blood

4. Her immune system protects it like it would any other organ.

Why is it a parasite?

1. It needs a host to live

2. It benefits at the expense of its host

3. If the host is malnutritioned, it will die.

4. If the host dies, it will die.

navci

Jun 6, 2004, 02:54 PM

Since I have a bit of free time and saw the thread, I thought I'll respond to some of the stuff:

Abortion:
I have always been for it. And on a similar line on Subliminalgroove here, I'd like to think of abortion as a "choice" about whether or not to give birth.

I think the more important thing here, that some people have raised here, about teens and their accidental pregancy; is that our sexual education is really poor, almost non-existant. What people don't know, they don't do. It's astonishing how little teens, and adults alike know about reproductive processes. They know a few myth and that is about it. Under this kind of circumstances of course there would be unwanted pregancy. Sex happens, but if you don't want a baby with it, then you have to have the right knowledge to try to prevent it! While abortion can really harm your body, wearing a condom really isn't hurting anyone's body nor is it an expensive procedure. ...

My point is, abortion as "getting rid of the burden from your ignorance of contraception" isn't something I'd support. But as a woman's choice about her own body (that choice might be influenced by many things, but let's say a woman in her right mind deciding on whether or not she want a baby), then yes.

Obsession with appearance:
I was at the grocery store yesterday and saw the cover of "People" about a certain beauty pegaent called "Miss Swan". What it is, apparently, is for women who have had plastic surgeries to participate. Each of the contestant has at least 15 procedures done on them.

So. .... I thought beauty is supposed to be a nature thing that is different for everyone and exist in all of us. If everyone is just going to go into a mold and make themselves conform to a certain abstract and absurd beauty standard, then well, won't everyone just be beautiful and would being beautiful mean anything then? I read a few message boards about this Miss Swan contest and apparently a lot of women admire these contestant for going through with this. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif Seriously! If we are going to think using surgery to make us fit to a certain mold is okay and people would admire you for it. Why don't we just start mass-producing human in a plastic model then everyone would be perfect and the same. :/

People are so obsessed with individuality, yet at the same time they all jump in one after another to fit the standard and be proud of it.

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 03:15 PM

So....no one believes in predetermined destiny?!

Wow, so I suppose the death of Jesus Christ wasn't destiny, huh?!

Maybe your whole life isn't predetermined, but some of the major experiences in your life are....

No one has the power to change everything around them, therefore, destiny drives our lives *for the most part*..... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Hey Ness, you should add *destiny* to the dicussion list....pretty interesting topic, right?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 03:26 PM

On 2004-06-06 13:15, DarthFomar wrote:

Wow, so I suppose the death of Jesus Christ wasn't destiny, huh?!

That assumes that I believe in the existence of God.

Maybe your whole life isn't predetermined, but some of the major experiences in your life are....

Do you have evidence to back up that claim?

No one has the power to change everything around them, therefore, destiny drives our lives *for the most part*..... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Just because you can't change everything around you doesn;t mean that your life is predetermined. It simply means that you are not all-powerful and destiny has nothing to do with that.

Hey Ness, you should add *destiny* to the dicussion list....pretty interesting topic, right?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

I stated at the beginning that you could tlak aobut mroe than the topics I lsited.

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 03:27 PM

There is a moral and philisophical issue there, I will not deny that. When does life become life? When a heart starts beating? When a functional brain is formed? At the moment of birth? In the first, second, or third trimester? Or even at conception?

Its almost impossible to find a concensus on the topic. Individual logic and spiritual belief lead to many different conclusions. I, personally, fall somewhere around the moment a functioning brain forms. Once there is activity, synapses making connections. This denotes thought and learning. Something that only life (of any form) is capable of. But, that is where MY logic puts me. However, our own logic and beliefs may not play a part much longer. Due to the Unborn Victims of Violence Act Bush has taken away our right to even that. By defining an Unborn Victim as a "zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus" he has pretty much forced the concept that life begins at conception down our throats and into our bodies.

But I think the most insulting thing is that people who would ban abortions are placing the unborn before the woman who is already alive. They might not even realize it.

I know there are other options, unfourtunatly, most of them are illegal or suppressed in the wonderful U.S of A. I personally think that, if this was a perfect world, adoption would be the best way to go. I know too many women who cannot have children and would do anything to have a baby. The waiting lists to adopt a baby are immense. People who have babies, have them because they want them (usually). But even with this adoption option, the biological mother would have to carry the child for 9 months and give birth. SO it isn't really another option, is it?

I don't think abstinance is an adequate option. When you are with someone for years, and you don't want to have a baby, what do you do? Maybe I just don't have the self control, but, when I love someone and they are a part of my life, I want to be as close to them as possible, I want to share everything with them. Making love is one way of coming closer, of sharing emotions and feelings greater than the both of you. Condoms aren't fool proof. Many religions take issue with BC, not to mention all the restrictions steadily being imposed on it and the clinics that distribute it.

Bush has gone on a sweeping campaign since his very first day in office, to make women docile mothers once more. His very first action was to put the Global Gag rule into effect. He has supported and signed bills that restrict family planning centers and remove funding from them by amending Title X. He has been trying to deny fedral funding to schools who distribute the morning after pill (it is NOT abortion) to students in need. He has supported the adoption of the ridiculous abstinance education by schools all over the nation. He wants teens who get birth control to have prior parental concent to get them, nevermind the fact that patient confidentiality is a must in medicine for a number of reasons. HE has put anti-abortion activist Dr. David Hager, the faith healer who prescribes PRAYER for PMS (what a schmuck), on the FDA's influential Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hes done much more as well.

Essentially our rights are falling to the ground all around us. Yes, women have come far since the begining of the movement. Every day there is more and more women doing things that show us that we can do whatever the fuck we want. But all of that means nothing as soon as we get pregnant. We become non-entities. We are no longer CEO's, Musicians, professional tennis players, soldiers, scientists... we become mothers. Because our choices are being flushed down the toilet. And the big rub... all of this is being done by middle aged white men. I think the circumstances would be different if men carried the child for 9 months. If men were facing the realization that they would have to put their life on hold for, at the VERY LEAST, nine months.

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 03:31 PM

I find it ironic that Bush is fighting for freedom overseas while he tries to oppress the women and minorites here. What Subby is saying is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The removal of affirmative action is another example. If affirmative action is removed, what will stop people from discriminating?

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 03:34 PM

On 2004-06-06 13:15, DarthFomar wrote:
So....no one believes in predetermined destiny?!

Wow, so I suppose the death of Jesus Christ wasn't destiny, huh?!

Many of us don't feel JC was our savior. I for one feel he was a wonderful man, a great humanitarian, and, possibly even a prophet. But I DO NOT believe he died on the cross for my sins.

So, no, I don't think that was destiny. I feel he ended up there because he simply became too much of a thorn in the side of the roman government and the priests alike. If you try to tackle something as big as the roman empire and belief system, and have success even, of course they are going to try to see you as a threat and act as such.

But this is a completely different topic... luckily we have avoided flames so far. But religion usually tears it...

astuarlen

Jun 6, 2004, 03:43 PM

Religion shouldn't force it's morality of us either
I don't think I mentioned religion once. It doesn't take religion to tell us that murder and rape are wrong, so I'm not sure where that comment was aimed.

Unborn child is at best another organ in the womans body and at worst a parasite.
It's a damn good thing all the potential mothers in this world don't have such a positive view of things, or humanity would be in serious trouble. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif Technically, an unborn child may be just a parasite, but it's a parasite with the potential to become a human being.

I completely agree, Navi, that people need to be educated about the consequences of sex and their options. But they must also know that no measure short of complete absinence eliminates the risks 100%. Just like anything in life, you have to be willing to deal with the consequences of your actions. At the risk of sounding like an out-of-touch old granny, I feel a lot of people these days (and maybe other days?) are impatient, ignorant, and completely averse to taking any personal responsability. And that goes for both men and women. Very little that is good or enjoyable comes without possibly adverse consequences.

Wow, so I suppose the death of Jesus Christ wasn't destiny, huh?!
Well, if you count the fact that all living things die as destiny, then I suppose it was. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

EDIT:

I don't think abstinance is an adequate option. When you are with someone for years, and you don't want to have a baby, what do you do? Maybe I just don't have the self control, but, when I love someone and they are a part of my life, I want to be as close to them as possible, I want to share everything with them. Making love is one way of coming closer, of sharing emotions and feelings greater than the both of you. Condoms aren't fool proof. Many religions take issue with BC, not to mention all the restrictions steadily being imposed on it and the clinics that distribute it.
Rawr, stop making good points! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif I don't know what to say to this, considering that the people I most have a problem with are stupid kids (chronologically and otherwise) who can't accept that there are responsabilities associated with sex.

It's just silly for some religions to be against birth control (I'm assuming that's what "BC" is). Perhaps if it was easier to obtain more effective methods of birth control, we wouldn't have as many unwanted pregnancies, and therefore less abortions! It doesn't take much to figure that out, but some people haven't yet, it would seem. >_>

[ This Message was edited by: astuarlen on 2004-06-06 13:52 ]

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 03:51 PM

On 2004-06-06 13:31, Ness wrote:
I find it ironic that Bush is fighting for freedom overseas

Well in terms of freedoms, that is questionable as well. Staying with my original rants. The Global Gag rule (Mexico City Policy) removes funding from any US funded family planning centers abroad that even SUGGEST abortion as an option.

The clinics that choose to take the funding from USAID (U.S. Agency for International Development) must abide by these restrictions at the expense of their patients health and freedoms.

Those that refuse the terms lose the vital funding as well as donated contraceptives. This means they have to hike fees and cut services. Resulting in more women who are forced to go to questionable and dangerous sources in poor facilities for abortion. Or the concraceptives, which were free, are now unatainable. This encourages the spread of deseases. Mush of the funding that used to go to these clinics before the GG rule went to Africa. Where HIV is at epedemic levels. This only means it spreads more easily.

One of the worst things about all this is that it FAILS to achieve its goal of reducing the number of abortions. The women simply seek out the clandestine measures I mentioned above which are often detrimental to thier health instead of being able to seek out help from a certified doctor with proven methods in a safe environment.

Essentially, it reduces access to contraception, leading to more unwanted and high-risk pregnancies, more unsafe abortions, and more maternal illness, injury, and even death.

Freedom my sweet ass...

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 04:03 PM

You know....I've been hearing a lot of "I don't believe in Jesus Christ" lately.

It really makes you wonder if movies like "The Day After Tomorrow" are signs of things yet to come.

*Don't take it personally either, it's merely an insight of future events* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

*Walks over to hidden doorway and hides* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-06-06 14:06 ]

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 04:08 PM

On 2004-06-06 14:03, DarthFomar wrote:
You know....I've been hearing a lot of "I don't believe in Jesus Christ" lately.

It really makes you wonder if movies like "The Day After Tomorrow" are signs of things yet to come.

*Don't take it personally either, it's merely an insight of future events* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

*Walks over to hidden doorway and hides* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

If you subscribe to the Christian doctrine, that is fine by me. But I don't. That doesn't mean I don't think he existed. I do. I think he was a pivitol figure in world history. But that is all.

And, correct me if I'm wrong. But, isn't DAT all about the sudden climate changes that occur as a result of how we humans have abused our environment. You know ala "The Coming Global Superstorm" : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671041916/qid=1086556068/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-5270295-9539905?v=glance&s=books&n=507846?

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 04:15 PM

On 2004-06-06 14:08, Subliminalgroove wrote:

On 2004-06-06 14:03, DarthFomar wrote:
You know....I've been hearing a lot of "I don't believe in Jesus Christ" lately.

It really makes you wonder if movies like "The Day After Tomorrow" are signs of things yet to come.

*Don't take it personally either, it's merely an insight of future events* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

*Walks over to hidden doorway and hides* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

If you subscribe to the Christian doctrine, that is fine by me. But I don't. That doesn't mean I don't think he existed. I do. I think he was a pivitol figure in world history. But that is all.

And, correct me if I'm wrong. But, isn't DAT all about the sudden climate changes that occur as a result of how we humans have abused our environment. You know ala "The Coming Global Superstorm" : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671041916/qid=1086556068/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-5270295-9539905?v=glance&s=books&n=507846?

*Again, do not take it personally* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

And the answer to that last question is yes and no. We have the power to change our environmet, but right now we really aren't doing anything about it. And there is already to much evil in the world.

Something like "Day After Tomorrow" is bound to happen, hence *Destiny*.

I am a partial believer in the world doom theories. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

I mean, look at the course we are traveling on....one day this planet will become nothing but scum and degenerates. Something has to be done....it's in someone hand's....but who's?!

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-06-06 14:16 ]

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 04:16 PM

It's a damn good thing all the potential mothers in this world don't have such a positive view of things, or humanity would be in serious trouble. Technically, an unborn child may be just a parasite, but it's a parasite with the potential to become a human being.

Organs have the potential to become human beings too. All cells are initially blank. From there they can become gametes (sp?), caidac cells, nerve cells, blood cells, or any other type of cell. Instead of becoming gametes, they become a a different type of cell.

Also making abortions illegal because unborn children ahve the potential to become a human life is jsut like putting a person in jail because they have the potential to become a criminal.

@ Subby

That's another thing that makes me mad. We tend to black mail every developping country so the make the laws that we want them to make.

@ Darth Fomar
The Day After Tomorrow was just radical environmentalist propaganda.

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 04:20 PM

On 2004-06-06 14:16, Ness wrote:
@ Darth Fomar
The Day After Tomorrow was just radical environmentalist propaganda.

Yeah, but it could happen. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

So could a mega ton asteroid redecorating our planet, massive lethal plagues, earth's core stopping, etc, blah blah blah..... There's to many doom theorys to list. So screw it. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif half of them are stupid anyway. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 04:25 PM

I don't agree with you. The world has always had its share of bad eggs. But that is just society. The reason there seem to be so many right now is partly because of American culture. It breeds trait which, at least I, find undesirable. I think that one day, yes, there will be a mass extinction. Geology and Paleontology (SP?) bear that out almost unquestionably. But something like that will not happen due to human design or neglect. Though we are killing ourselves with the way we live.

You know Darth, you want to read up on some great cataclysmic possibilities. Check out a book on the Yellostone super volcano. Yup, ALL of yellowstone is a volcano. And its active, hence the geisers and hot springs. It erupted a long time ago and is acctually about ready to pop again... here is a semi-educational link: http://www.solcomhouse.com/yellowstone.htm

this one's a bit better:
http://www.rense.com/general41/yellowstoneupdate.htm

[ This Message was edited by: Subliminalgroove on 2004-06-06 14:33 ]

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 04:30 PM

On 2004-06-06 14:25, Subliminalgroove wrote:
You know Darth, you want to read up on some great cataclysmic possibilities. Check out a book on the Yellostone super volcano. Yup, ALL of yellowstone is a volcano. And its active, hence the geisers and hot springs. It erupted a long time ago and is acctually about ready to pop again... here is a semi-educational link: http://www.solcomhouse.com/yellowstone.htm

Interesting, I didn't realize we were about to be slaughtered by massive volcanos. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Thanks for the info.....damn Yellowstone, and all those other Volcanos *burning in lava is not a good way to go* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 04:31 PM

I saw a documentary about the Yellow Stone volcano. The group near where they think the mouth is/was has elevated itself 20 feet in the last 80 years. If it erupts, it will cover most of the wrold in dust make knock out the growing season in both Europe and North America. This would be the death of us had it happened 50 years ago. Now we have the technology to grow food without the sun.

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 04:34 PM

It still wouldn't be pretty...

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 04:36 PM

I'd rather be wiped out by an Asteroid collision of astronomical proportions..... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

No pain, no gain, no mummified looking corpse of stone. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-06-06 14:38 ]

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 04:40 PM

On 2004-06-06 14:34, Subliminalgroove wrote:
It still wouldn't be pretty...

Well of course not. I'm not saying that people aren't going to die, but civilization and the human race will be able to survive.

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 04:43 PM

Wow... didn't we go off topic . . . http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 04:48 PM

On 2004-06-06 14:43, Subliminalgroove wrote:
Wow... didn't we go off topic . . . http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Not really. We are still discussing the issues of our time period.

DarthFomar

Jun 6, 2004, 04:48 PM

Not really off topic is it..... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

We are discussing issues like Ness said....which he wants, right?!

astuarlen

Jun 6, 2004, 04:58 PM

Also making abortions illegal because unborn children ahve the potential to become a human life is jsut like putting a person in jail because they have the potential to become a criminal.
Well, the former is giving someone a chance, while the second is denying them a chance. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I don't think I said abortions should be illegal, either, just that I am personally opposed to them in most cases.

Hey, guys, stop talking about global disasters! Now I look like I'm going OT http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 05:02 PM

yeah... I suppose.

And no one even noticed how deftly I pulled us away from the powderkeg that is religion. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_innocent.gif

edit:
just so there is no confusion here... this was directed to ness.

Thanks for getting us back to topic Astaurlen.. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Subliminalgroove on 2004-06-06 15:13 ]

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 05:08 PM

WOOT, four pages and no lock! We're on a roll!

On 2004-06-06 14:58, astuarlen wrote:

Well, the former is giving someone a chance, while the second is denying them a chance. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I don't think I said abortions should be illegal, either, just that I am personally opposed to them in most cases.

Hey, guys, stop talking about global disasters! Now I look like I'm going OT http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I didn't say that you were opposed to them. I was just refuting the idea that being a potential human life makes a fetus special. As for denying people a chance, it could be argued that having a baby denies people a chance. When you think about it, bringing a baby into the picture kind of puts a damper on things, especailly when it is not expected. A woman may be denied the chance to go to college or climb to the top of the corporate ladder because she had a baby. The same goes for the man involved.

geewj

Jun 6, 2004, 05:18 PM

[message from the bottom of my post: I'm not gonna bother proof reading this, so good luck with any typo's I may have made]

Sure, I'm game.

(now keep in mind that some things I say may not be my personal opinion, but the counter argument to the most popular view on the subject)

Gay rights- Sure, they are people too and should be able to do what they want. But boys can't join girl scouts, because It's only for girls. They have bou scouts instead. Similarly for marriage, I think in general it's viewed as something for a man and a woman. There should be a similar event for the gay community, but not the same thing.
(not my opinion, as I for the most part don't have a direct opinion on the subject)

Modern Religion- As long as it's not harming anyone then let them do what they want. Getting pissed that someone knocked on your door and wanted to tell you about it? Well get over it you baby. No one sexualy assulted you or anything so stop complainig. And for the people that seem to want to make sure that everyone around knows that they think religion in general is a bunch of bull... How do you know? What privleged information do you have that the rest of the world doesn't? It's just as much an assumption to say god does exist as it is to say that he doesn't. Get over yourself.

MTV/BET- No comment, don't care

Foolish Lawsuits- Sucks that you have to watch your ass so you don't get sued, but them's the breaks. The laws are there to protect people, believe it or not.

Contemporary Art- No comment

George Bush- People need to lay off. He's not some greedy war monger, and he's not the only one making decision about the country. It's easy to say that someone is doing a bad job at something when there is nothing to compare it to (yeah other presidents, but different events).

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror- No comment

Affirmative Action- Sometimes you have to punish the good to stop the bad. I'd like to see someone think of a better solution.

Space Travel- Good for them.

Mars and Moon Colonies- I'm in no rush.

Pop Culture- Don't follow it. Don't care.

Obsession with Appearance- This is a pretty general statment. To me it doesn't me only the people that need the nicest clothes and the best cars. And it doesn't just mean all the kids that need everyone to know that they are a tourtured goth.

Let's use the example of someone on a fourm. People who are obsessed with making themselves apear smarter than average. Thy may very well be, but that's not important. They take every oportunity to say that they already knew something, or to mention how easy something was, or to boast about their supposed IQ, or their vast ungogoled knowladge. To me that is just as much obsessed with appearance as someone who always needs to have their make-up on, or someone who can't be seen without the latest Nikes. The only difference I see is where their intrests lie.

Abortions- I personaly don't think that it should be allowed, but I'm not about to come up with solutions to all the problems that would cause so I can't press the issue.

Separation of Church and State- It really isn't that big a deal. People just being petty is how I see it.

The Paranormal- Can't say it is, can't say it isn't. Same thing a religion as far as I'm concerned

Aliens- Staisticaly more plausable than the paranormal is, but again can't say anything for sure.

Scales_of_Air

Jun 6, 2004, 06:24 PM

Gay rights
I see no reason to restrict Gay rights... They ARE citizens like the most of us, which means they should be guarunteed the same rights as everyone else. By limiting their rights, we're only discriminating more. Imposing "morals" on them is the equivalent of saying "my opinion is the only right opinion," because everyone's morals will differ.

Modern Religion
I have nothing against religion. Let people believe what they will, and if it gives them something to look to for solace and reassurance, then heck yes for religion. I myself do not put any ultimate faith in any, but rather, I try to use religion in daily life as a basis for good character, and I try to interpret the gospels in mass for an answer to religion that may or may not lead to my true faith in one.

MTV/BET
I think it advertises the degredation of America's society. People are entitled to their own opinions and such, so I won't impose anything on them, but I think it's all crap.

Foolish Lawsuits
Exactly what the title reads: foolish lawsuits. It's sick really, if a robber is hurt while trying to steal from your home, and he can prove his motives were not to steal, then he can get off with mere trespassing and then file a suit against you for his injuries.

Contemporary Art
No, just no. Even though the definition of "art" is nearly limitless, this art requires no skill or talent. Let's throw anything together and call this ensemble of junk "art"? -no, it doesn't work like that... Art is expression, and if that's the measure of one's creativity than I pitty them for not being able to do anything else with their time. -Well, no, I take that back, because there's plenty of other things that are much much worse than occupying oneself with contemporary art. In fact, to sum it up - I don't like it, but it's definately better than doing something that would end up on a news cast about a trajedy.

George Bush
I believe he's an idiot - He obviously wants to shove his puritanical views on everyone else in the world and tell them that they would prosper in his ideas, and therefore go to "liberate" them from their current ruler and indirectly spread out the terrorist threat.

Because of his lack of oratory skills, he must have a group of other people compile a speech and articulate for him, because he's only the president and apparently doesn't need to speek his true motives to the people. For what does it matter? he told the world that "...I will not be affected by the countless peace protests here and throughout the world..." Great leader; he sure listens and acts for the people.

Don't get me wrong Republicans/Conservatives, some of my liberal views stray into that area too. I respect the republican opinions, and what I say about Bush only pertains to Bush, and that wasn't a flame to any conservative.

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror
Terror is an abstract noun - that name is only used to glitter our current state of affairs and make it look as if we're acting in complete justice. I absolutely support actions and increased security to protect against terrorism, but the main terrorist threat was from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. Bush is imposing his values on another nation behind the excuse of War on Terror and the liberation from a dictator.

Affirmative Action
Silly... It just reverses discrimination. What really needs to happen is this: Base choices off qualifications ONLY - NO discrimination with regard to race, sex, color, ethnicity, religion, gender, etc. NONE - that would bring a measure of equality because then everyone would have an equal chance because it's only the qualifications, scores, or whatever that matter - not the trivial things that really don't affect one's mental ability or reliability as a worker or student.

Space Travel
Cool! - But right now, we need to dedicate our scarce funding to other things more closely related to the majority of America.

Mars and Moon Colonies
Sure, scientific research and developement is great, but see above.

Pop Culture
Sure, people are entitled to their on opinions, but I don't indulge in mainstream junk. It seems like a load of stereotypes in which I do not want to take part. Besides, the music doesn't appeal to me either.

Obsession with Appearance
With America being the, or one of the most obese nations in the world, sure, watch your figure but don't overdue it and turn anerexic(sp?). And please, gallons of makeup is just... gallons of make up...

Abortions
Pro-choice - her body, she can do what she wants. A great quote someone said to me about this issue -"Keep your rosaries off my ovaries!"

Separation of Church and State
Government officals can go under whatever influence they please, especially spiritual, but they cannot pass laws that generalize everyone and force them to comply with a certain religion.

The Paranormal
No real experience, so no opinion. I think hunches, instinct, and intuition exist, whether or not that is related to spiritual or paranormal influence. Really, I'm fading towards "yes?"

Aliens
There is proof of life in the universe. Fossils on mars; of plants and I thought a small centipede-like thing. There has to be some life that has evolved and lived, Earth can't be the only and sole planet that has sufficient temperature and sunlight to foster life. Out of the millions of galaxies, what is the probability that earth is the ONLY planet with surviving life?

Edit: I feared I'd be warned for a flame, so I added more.

[ This Message was edited by: Scales_of_Air on 2004-06-06 16:33 ]

Dangerous55

Jun 6, 2004, 06:29 PM

On 2004-06-06 16:24, Scales_of_Air wrote:

George Bush
I believe he's an idiot

Disagree with him all you want, but don't call him an idiot. Just because you don't like the way he does that things does not mean he is fool.

Sorry but that really, really bugs me.

Scales_of_Air

Jun 6, 2004, 06:36 PM

On 2004-06-06 16:29, Dangerous55 wrote:

On 2004-06-06 16:24, Scales_of_Air wrote:

George Bush
I believe he's an idiot

Disagree with him all you want, but don't call him an idiot. Just because you don't like the way he does that things does not mean he is fool.

Sorry but that really, really bugs me.

But then again, I did say "I believe" which shows it's only my opinion and every other person is entitled to voice themselves too. I understand though - point taken. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Dangerous55

Jun 6, 2004, 06:40 PM

On 2004-06-06 16:36, Scales_of_Air wrote:
But then again, I did say "I believe" which shows it's only my opinion and every other person is entitled to voice themselves too. I understand though - point taken. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

This just stems from people saying "BUSH IS AN IDIOT", then I reply with "Back it up." They usually say "I dont know, he just is." These people usually say to nuke Iraq too, meh, they are the idiots.

Oh well, just had to tell you that Scales, because it makes me mad. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 06:48 PM

I feel he is an idiot because of the policies he has initiated and supports. I feel that many of them are detrimental to the US and women in particular. I feel he has made a blundering mess of international deplomacy.

But as Scales pointed out. That is my opinion. If you feel that he is the reincarnation of Buddah himself, fine, that's your opinion. If you feel he likes to throw poo at the monkeys at the zoo, that is your right as well. I just feel he has done some VERY dumb things in office, hence... idiot.

He may be the nicest guy in the world on a person to person level, but that isn't the issue. What makes him an idiot in my book is the manner in which he weilds his immense power and sway over the world.

Edit: I just have to say this... I LOVE discussing things with you Dangerous. You always listen and try to see things from the other point of view before you try to tear it to shreds. It is always wonderful to have intelligent discussions/debates with people like you. Many of you participating in this thread fall into that catagory. Thank you for supporting an open and intelligent forum for the discussion of ideas and concepts. It is something that there is far too little of in this country these days.

[ This Message was edited by: Subliminalgroove on 2004-06-06 17:10 ]

Scales_of_Air

Jun 6, 2004, 06:51 PM

On 2004-06-06 16:40, Dangerous55 wrote:

On 2004-06-06 16:36, Scales_of_Air wrote:
But then again, I did say "I believe" which shows it's only my opinion and every other person is entitled to voice themselves too. I understand though - point taken. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

This just stems from people saying "BUSH IS AN IDIOT", then I reply with "Back it up."
I tried to type a good amount without making it into a rant or a flame, so I apologize if 1)the two points I chose were unclear or 2) if they weren't elaborated enough or 3) if it didn't seem like valid support of my statements. ^_^

When I discuss my opinions in politics some say to me "well, would you do any better?" I can't really say until I try, but then again, I'm not the one running for office. If he wants to be a leader of a large nation, than I think he should beable to do so to the satisfaction of citizens who need a good leader.

I like this thread; people in school want to strike back before we're done stating the point to our thoughts. Good talking (or typing, to be literal) with you. I'm eager to read another reply. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Scales_of_Air

Jun 6, 2004, 06:55 PM

On 2004-06-06 16:48, Subliminalgroove wrote:

Edit: I just have to say this... I LOVE discussing things with you Dangerous. You always listen and try to see things from the other point of very before you try to tear it to shreds. It is always wonderful to have intelligent discussions/debates with people like you. Many of you participating in this thread fall into that catagory. Thank you for supporting an open and intelligent forum for the discussion of ideas and concepts. It is something that there is far too little of in this country these days.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif That's really what I said in the following previous post with different wording. It's good that alot of people like to have the opportunity to share their views in a good atmosphere; that's how we can learn from one another. Yeah, go Dangerous! two people in a row said they like sharing their views with you, http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Edit: fixed a silly error of mine ^_-
Edit" fixed another silly error of mine while I was trying to fix the first error of mine, http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif
[ This Message was edited by: Scales_of_Air on 2004-06-06 16:57 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Scales_of_Air on 2004-06-06 16:57 ]

Dangerous55

Jun 6, 2004, 07:24 PM

Thanks, both of you!(I don't detect any sarcasm from either of you, but if there is any...)

I understand what you are saying but I don't even call Saddam or Osama idiots. I believe they are wrong but to them they are doing what they think is right. You know when you meet an idiot, you can just tell.

Meh, I don't know. Im just not a fan of classifying someone as one thing with no room in the middle.

astuarlen

Jun 6, 2004, 07:28 PM

Affirmative Action
Silly... It just reverses discrimination. What really needs to happen is this: Base choices off qualifications ONLY - NO discrimination with regard to race, sex, color, ethnicity, religion, gender, etc. NONE - that would bring a measure of equality because then everyone would have an equal chance because it's only the qualifications, scores, or whatever that matter - not the trivial things that really don't affect one's mental ability or reliability as a worker or student.

I wish this could work in the world of today. Unfortunately, the opportunities one has in life, which come largely from the situation one is born into, often artificially skew allegedly "objective" measures of skill and qualifications such as test scores and education. Color-blind and gender-blind decisions sound like the fairest option, but that's assuming that previous socio-economic standing, education, and experience are also "blind" to ethnicity, gender, religion, etc. Unfortunately, the world doesn't quite work that way, so while affirmative action is not a cure to the problem of unfair discrimination, it's a better way to deal with the problem than pretending it doesn't exist.

I think this (http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm) is a very nice site explaining some common misconceptions about affirmative action.

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 07:39 PM

Thanks for the link there, astuarlen. Very good info there.

Ketchup345

Jun 6, 2004, 07:39 PM

Gay Rights-
Let them have something equivalent at least, possibly different in name, but at least all 1k+ of the rights that married couples have

Religion-
Whatever works for you. Just don't be an extremist and push your view on others.

MTV/BET-
I hate MTV. I think I watched it for like 6 months when I was 12 or something like that. I now regret it. They destroyed good music.

From the movie School of Rock:

Dewey Finn: Give up, just quit, because in this life, you can't win. Yeah, you can try, but in the end you're just gonna lose, big time, because the world is run by the Man. The Man, oh, you don't know the man. He's everywhere... in the Whitehouse... down the hall -Ms. Mullens, she's the man. And the Man ruined the ozone, he's burning down the Amazon, and he kidnapped Shamu and put her in a chlorine tank! And there used to be a way to stick it to the Man. It was called Rock and Roll, but guess what, oh no, the man ruined that, too, with a little thing called MTV! So don't waste your time trying to make anything cool or pure or awesome cause the man is just gonna call you a fat washed up loser and crush your soul. So do yourselves a favor and just GIVE UP!
MTV I don't watch at all, so no opinion.

Foolish Lawsuits-
Good for a laugh, but if they win, the person who brought it up and the judge/jury that ruled in their favor should be shot.

Contemporary Art-
No opinion.

George Bush-
Isn't it obvious? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif
Can't stand him. I personally feel he makes many wrong decisions, which he makes others take the blame for. He ignores some of his top advisor's facts/notes, and goes ahead with what he wants to do. I wish I was old enough to vote against him this November.

War in Iraq-
Unneccesary, ddn't have to be done. Doesn't help the necessary War on Terror.

War on Terror-
Neccessary. But we aren't doing enough to safeguard our towns, cities, ports, etc. Also, the distribution of $ for Homeland Security is not how it should be: some low population states get over $50 per person, while places like New York only get about $25 per person.

Affirmitive Action-
Segregation, but reversed. Not a fan of it.

Space Travel and Colonies on other Cesestial Bodies-
Good idea, especially if we continue destroying this planet (Pioneer project?). I just don't think right now is a good time for it, maybe in a few years when we don't have an insane deficit and we can improve the shuttle design.
I do think bases on other planets could be useful, but not until the world cooperates more, since it is not really a job for one nation.

Pop Culture-
Junk. We need something different.

Obsession with Appearance-
No Opinion

Abortions-
I'm for the option. I think that the father should have a small say though (if it was done at the time on purpose and that the doctor says that a normal birth wouldn't hurt the mother).

Separation of Church and State-
Didn't we have one until GWB?
I'm for the separation of Church and State. The Church should stay out of politics, and politics should leave the Churches alone at tax exempt status, nothing more.

Paranormal and Aliens-
Paranormal is a tough one, but after living with my fammily for 17 years, I believe in it. Ghosts, psychic powers, etc.
It is impossible that we are the only planet with life on it. Also, it is very possible that there are other inteligent beings who have better space travel capabilities. Aliens do exist (both kinds- other planets and other countries http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif).

Subliminalgroove

Jun 6, 2004, 07:49 PM

Umm... I know this is a long way off from what I have been talking about. But it just occured to me while reading Ketchup's thing about aliens.

Didn't we find evidence of bacteria on some rock we pulled back from somewhere. That's not a topic I am well versed on, but I am fairly sure we found something with fossilized bacteria either drifting around in space or on another planet. While that is definatly not walking talking little green men. It definitly would have been some form of life.

Scales_of_Air

Jun 6, 2004, 08:00 PM

On 2004-06-06 17:24, Dangerous55 wrote:
Thanks, both of you!(I don't detect any sarcasm from either of you, but if there is any...)

I understand what you are saying but I don't even call Saddam or Osama idiots. I believe they are wrong but to them they are doing what they think is right. You know when you meet an idiot, you can just tell.

Meh, I don't know. Im just not a fan of classifying someone as one thing with no room in the middle.

Hmm, very true! I agree with that. But I see what Bush is doing, and the effect he is having, and even if it seems right to him, it seems very negative in my opinion, so my my measures I feel that he is an idiot - as a leader. He may be a decent person like any other politician, but I don't like at all what he's done ever since the beginning of his term.

Scales_of_Air

Jun 6, 2004, 08:06 PM

On 2004-06-06 17:28, astuarlen wrote:

Affirmative Action
Silly... It just reverses discrimination. What really needs to happen is this: Base choices off qualifications ONLY - NO discrimination with regard to race, sex, color, ethnicity, religion, gender, etc. NONE - that would bring a measure of equality because then everyone would have an equal chance because it's only the qualifications, scores, or whatever that matter - not the trivial things that really don't affect one's mental ability or reliability as a worker or student.

I wish this could work in the world of today. Unfortunately, the opportunities one has in life, which come largely from the situation one is born into, often artificially skew allegedly "objective" measures of skill and qualifications such as test scores and education. Color-blind and gender-blind decisions sound like the fairest option, but that's assuming that previous socio-economic standing, education, and experience are also "blind" to ethnicity, gender, religion, etc. Unfortunately, the world doesn't quite work that way, so while affirmative action is not a cure to the problem of unfair discrimination, it's a better way to deal with the problem than pretending it doesn't exist.

I think this (http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm) is a very nice site explaining some common misconceptions about affirmative action.

Thank you, that site was interesting to read http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Edit: By the way Subliminalgroove, read my post about aliens. Wasn't it a fossil on Mars? And Ketchup, what made you believe in paranormal, simply living for 17 years is very, very broad. Please elaborate, i'm interested http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Scales_of_Air on 2004-06-06 18:09 ]

Shigecki

Jun 6, 2004, 08:48 PM

Gay rights-
Don't like gay marrage, don't marry a gay man.

War on Iraq and War on Terror-
Anyone who wishes Saddom was still in Power, please raise your hand. Well I'm waiting.

Affirmative action-
Only solution I see right now. Just because your white and didn't get a job, don't blame it on affirmative action. Maybe you're not the most qualified.

Space Travel-
Waist of tax payers money. Over the last 40 years of the space program the only thing good and lasting that came out of this is Tang.

Mars and Moon Colonies-
Never happen. No air and no dinking water. too long and expensive of a distance to bring both to these areas.

Separation of Church and State-
If you take all of religion out, then atheism become the default religion. This is a no win situation.

Aliens-
Looking around my neighborhood, ya, I believe.http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Ness

Jun 6, 2004, 09:22 PM

Welcome to PSOW, Scales!

Silly... It just reverses discrimination. What really needs to happen is this: Base choices off qualifications ONLY - NO discrimination with regard to race, sex, color, ethnicity, religion, gender, etc. NONE - that would bring a measure of equality because then everyone would have an equal chance because it's only the qualifications, scores, or whatever that matter - not the trivial things that really don't affect one's mental ability or reliability as a worker or student.

As I have said many times, in a perfect world, that would work, but this is not a perfect world. As long as we live in a nation that loves to discriminate affirmative action is necessary. If we remove affirmative action, what will stop people from discriminating in jobs? Besides, the whole "reverse racism" label is untrue because affirmative action helps white people too.

As for Bush, I don't think he's an idiot, but he is not a good president. Osama and Saddam aren't idiots either. When you think about it, Osama was a genius. We didn't figure out what he was up to until it was too late. However this does not change the fact that he is an evil man and needs to be eliminated. Saddam was also a threat that needed to be wiped out. However, that was not our job to do. The Annihilation of Saddam should have been done by the Iraqis.

BlackRose

Jun 6, 2004, 10:23 PM

Calling things good and evil create problems that our minds just can't solve. It's a paradox, because both sides are composed of equal people and they both think the other is evil, and that higher powers prove them right. Who can really say? No person is or ever will be pure enough to make an unbiased decision in any matter. Maybe something will change in the future, but I hope not. If you give up hatred you give up love.

Dangerous55

Jun 6, 2004, 10:28 PM

On 2004-06-06 19:22, Ness wrote:
The Annihilation of Saddam should have been done by the Iraqis.

And God should give us all candy but it aint gonna happen.

DarthFomar

Jun 7, 2004, 03:28 AM

On 2004-06-06 16:48, Subliminalgroove wrote:
Edit: I just have to say this... I LOVE discussing things with you Dangerous. You always listen and try to see things from the other point of view before you try to tear it to shreds. It is always wonderful to have intelligent discussions/debates with people like you. Many of you participating in this thread fall into that catagory. Thank you for supporting an open and intelligent forum for the discussion of ideas and concepts. It is something that there is far too little of in this country these days.

Was that a hint of sarcasm?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif jk http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Well, may anyone who dare get emotional/angry/deluded over a message board be struck in the head by either lightening or a rubber chicken *a big rubber chicken*

As for the whole Bush thingy.....run for President....see how tuff it is to run the country *as well as helping others with disputes* and juggle all that on your shoulders at the same time. I promise, you couldn't do it....a lot of people these days wouldn't have the responsibilty, nor the guts to run an entire country. At least he is P. Nixon. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

*Once again, don't hit me....*

*goes and runs behind tree*

DarthFomar

Jun 7, 2004, 03:46 AM

On 2004-06-06 17:49, Subliminalgroove wrote:
Didn't we find evidence of bacteria on some rock we pulled back from somewhere. That's not a topic I am well versed on, but I am fairly sure we found something with fossilized bacteria either drifting around in space or on another planet. While that is definatly not walking talking little green men. It definitly would have been some form of life.

Yeah, that'd be mars.....seeing as it's one of the only few planets in our Solar system that *could've* housed life forms. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

RuneLateralus

Jun 7, 2004, 04:13 AM

Foolish Lawsuits-
Good to laugh at when they are brought up, but stupid when the "victim" wins for doing something out of their own stupidity. IE, the McDonalds case, or someone's family dog being put to sleep for biting the kid who was teasing and tormenting the poor thing.

Contemporary Art-
Interest. Always interesting to see what lurks in the heads of people. I am not the full admirer of it, but I like to look at it now and then.

George Bush-
Not a fan. I don't agree with his policies and issues. But this election will be a mess like the last one. Bush is moron, Kerry is a fool. It is more of a lose/lose situation that will have us choosing the lesser of two evils, so to speak.

War in Iraq-
No comment...except this. Why would anyone suspect there to be a connection between Al Qaeda and Sadaam? Sadaam is a secular leader for personal gain, while Al Qaeda is a religious group out to put others into their control for fundamentalist reasons. They have different goals and would not support each other.

Though it could be argued "a common foe," Sadaam would not do that because it would cause the UN to fully support the US invasion more.

War on Terror-
I understand the importance of it, but I do not appreciate the attempts to scare me every week about a terror alert.

Affirmitive Action-
It has its advantages...but it has its flaws. Needs to be worked on.

Space Travel and Colonies on other Cesestial Bodies-
Yeah...good luck on that one, unless you first name is Bill and your last name is Gates.

Pop Culture-
All these questions are part pop culture.

Obsession with Appearance-
Meh

Abortions-
Personally, I am against it. But in political beliefs, I am for it. It is a woman's body. She has the right to choose. And I am also not damning of the people who do go through with it.

Separation of Church and State-
Religion should not effect the laws of the country. Just because your personal beliefs are alright for you means it not alright for the country. Look at prohibition. Ok for some small towns, but terrible for the country. (this is my biggest issue with Bush...and I am not an atheist, so you can't use that arguement against me).

Paranormal and Aliens-
Universe is too big for just us.

Religion-
I believe religion is a great thing that could help guide a person on a path that could lead to a good life. However, I hate to see those who abuse it and try to oppress others with it.

Gay marriage-
So a gay couple wants to get married? Big deal. Doesn't effect me at all. Wouldn't effect how I feel about marriage either. It is on page 97 on the things that we should be worried about book. I will also add to those who try to say "what will stop people from marrying dogs and cats then" this: thank you the courtiousy of stating gays are nothing more than animals we can neglect. Good job.

[ This Message was edited by: RuneLateralus on 2004-06-07 02:16 ]

Ness

Jun 7, 2004, 08:26 AM

On 2004-06-06 20:28, Dangerous55 wrote:

And God should give us all candy but it aint gonna happen.

Of course it won't happen now that we've invaded them and imposed democracy on them.

Calling things good and evil create problems that our minds just can't solve. It's a paradox, because both sides are composed of equal people and they both think the other is evil, and that higher powers prove them right. Who can really say? No person is or ever will be pure enough to make an unbiased decision in any matter. Maybe something will change in the future, but I hope not. If you give up hatred you give up love.

Acts of both "good" and "evil" are beneficial to society and individuals. Also, you can have love without hate.

[ This Message was edited by: Ness on 2004-06-07 06:27 ]

Kent

Jun 7, 2004, 09:36 AM

Eh... Okay...

Good and Evil: There is good and there is evil, you can't deny that, no matter how smart or stupid you are, the fact that good and evil exist is not only a fact, but a constant. True, it does take a neutral entity to determine what is truely good and truely evil, but there are some (few) things which are good or evil by common sense.

I believe that people are not and cannot be existentially good or evil, that everyone starts out neutral. For example, wild animals aren't good or evil until they're trained to be. Same principal for humans (who are, in any case, just animals).

On 2004-06-07 02:13, RuneLateralus wrote:
I will also add to those who try to say "what will stop people from marrying dogs and cats then" this: thank you the courtiousy of stating gays are nothing more than animals we can neglect. Good job.

Gotta love taking metaphors too literally.

If they want to get married, let them. The only people who are against this are a plague to the gene pool. "I don't understand this, why, it must be blasphemy if I don't! 'Tis beyond my mental reach, thus, shall I forsake it!"

Solstis

Jun 7, 2004, 09:55 AM

On 2004-06-07 07:36, Kent wrote:

On 2004-06-07 02:13, RuneLateralus wrote:
I will also add to those who try to say "what will stop people from marrying dogs and cats then" this: thank you the courtiousy of stating gays are nothing more than animals we can neglect. Good job.

Gotta love taking metaphors too literally.

If they want to get married, let them. The only people who are against this are a plague to the gene pool. "I don't understand this, why, it must be blasphemy if I don't! 'Tis beyond my mental reach, thus, shall I forsake it!"

Thanks Kent, for making me laugh.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Beautiful.

Ness

Jun 7, 2004, 09:56 AM

That's one thing I've noticed about society. They try to supress things they don't understand, but that's the opposite of what should be done. Something they don't understand should be brought out into the open so people can analyze it and begin to understand it.

Shammed

Jun 7, 2004, 11:12 AM

I think Ness just wants his name on a 10-page thread, that's my view on that issue.

Agreed and agreed, but anyway...

Gay rights- Sure.

Modern Religion- I completely agree with it, but not in the sense of actually believing in any of them. Like someone said before, it gives people something to believe in. It also gives morals, and various things that are mainly benefits.

MTV- My favorite channel, set to default turbo on directv. I really don't know if all the people on this forum either seriously hate MTV, or just hop on the bandwagon. The reality TV shows on MTV are just the most entertaining thing for me to see on TV. And then I don't mind the videos at all, at least the non-rock ones. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif Now I'm just waiting for someone to call me something along the lines of a "lame pop culture conformer."

Foolish Lawsuits- The name of this topic says it all.

George Bush- Don't like him.

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror- Just as long as it doesn't directly affect me, I don't care.

Affirmative Action- If it's something that benefits me, Sure!

Space Travel- Meh.

Mars and Moon Colonies- Again, meh.

Pop Culture- *yawn*

Obsession with Appearance- Nothing wrong with that, but that's easily said when you're someone who's supposedly "obsessed with appearance." But I ask, does this topic pertain to obsession as far as clothing, etc., or more extreme variations such as surgery? As far as the plastic surgery goes, hey, people can do what they want. But for the former, I can't help it if I "take pleasure in" dressing/looking nice, or wanting to improve my body by going to the gym or some other non-radical method. The main thing I spend my money on is clothes; while I'm sure a lot of people here spend tons of money on shit like videogames whilst not caring about how they look. What's the big difference really, a hobby's a hobby.

Abortions- Fuck yes. No baby is better than an unwanted/deprived baby, imo.

Separation of Church and State- Could care less, just as long as religion doesn't get forced upon anyone.

The Paranormal- Meh, meh.

Aliens- Re: Meh.

[ This Message was edited by: Shammed on 2004-06-07 09:26 ]

Dangerous55

Jun 7, 2004, 11:44 AM

On 2004-06-07 06:26, Ness wrote:

Of course it won't happen now that we've invaded them and imposed democracy on them.

Yeah, because it was well on its way before we did something.

Ness

Jun 7, 2004, 04:10 PM

On 2004-06-07 09:44, Dangerous55 wrote:

On 2004-06-07 06:26, Ness wrote:

Of course it won't happen now that we've invaded them and imposed democracy on them.

Yeah, because it was well on its way before we did something.

You assume that the Iraqis really wanted to be free. Sure many of them did, but many does not equal all, or even most.

Dangerous55

Jun 7, 2004, 04:11 PM

On 2004-06-07 14:10, Ness wrote:

You assume that the Iraqis really wanted to be free. Sure many of them did, but many does not equal all, or even most.

It is basic Human instinct to be free.

Ness

Jun 7, 2004, 04:13 PM

On 2004-06-07 14:11, Dangerous55 wrote:

On 2004-06-07 14:10, Ness wrote:

You assume that the Iraqis really wanted to be free. Sure many of them did, but many does not equal all, or even most.

It is basic Human instinct to be free.

It is also basic human instinct to hate those that are different. Not everyone wants to give in to their instincts, good or bad. Besides, they are not free because they didn't get to choose their government. They are being force to live with the government we have chosen for them.

Dangerous55

Jun 7, 2004, 04:18 PM

On 2004-06-07 14:13, Ness wrote:

It is also basic human instinct to hate those that are different. Not everyone wants to give in to their instincts, good or bad. Besides, they are not free because they didn't get to choose their government. They are being force to live with the government we have chosen for them.

They are free because they can say the government they have now is horrible and they want a new one. Not that I have heard any of them argue, but if they did no Iraqi Government forces will shoot them for being a "revolutionary".

Ketchup345

Jun 7, 2004, 04:19 PM

On 2004-06-07 14:11, Dangerous55 wrote:

On 2004-06-07 14:10, Ness wrote:
You assume that the Iraqis really wanted to be free. Sure many of them did, but many does not equal all, or even most.

It is basic Human instinct to be free.

Yes, it may be a part of Human instinct, but we are talking about a society where they were forced to obey very strict laws, and follow orders from people, and where something like protesting for more freedoms could get you jailed (at least). These people have been trained to look down upon freedom, and some are clinging to that belief. Some don't want to be free. Not everyone likes everything.

How would you like it if Cuba or North Korea (examples) invaded the US and tried to impose Communism on the US? Many would hate the idea, since they were taught that Communism is always bad. Some people would go along with the idea, and others will fight it until their death.
This is almost exacly like what they are going through, except they have more hatred for their occupiers than I feel/think the US does for either of the 2 examples I used.

Ness

Jun 7, 2004, 04:22 PM

On 2004-06-07 14:18, Dangerous55 wrote:

They are free because they can say the government they have now is horrible and they want a new one. Not that I have heard any of them argue, but if they did no Iraqi Government forces will shoot them for being a "revolutionary".

I'm sorry man, but if you think that Bush is going to let them change their government then you ahve another thing coming. If the Iraqis changed their government, all the work Bush did would be in vain and it would make him look bad. Sure they can complain about it, but Bush will be damned if he lets them change it.

Dangerous55

Jun 7, 2004, 04:37 PM

On 2004-06-07 14:22, Ness wrote:

I'm sorry man, but if you think that Bush is going to let them change their government then you ahve another thing coming. If the Iraqis changed their government, all the work Bush did would be in vain and it would make him look bad. Sure they can complain about it, but Bush will be damned if he lets them change it.

Where the hell did I say they wanted to change it?

On 2004-06-07 14:19, Ketchup345 wrote:

Yes, it may be a part of Human instinct, but we are talking about a society where they were forced to obey very strict laws, and follow orders from people, and where something like protesting for more freedoms could get you jailed (at least). These people have been trained to look down upon freedom, and some are clinging to that belief. Some don't want to be free. Not everyone likes everything.

Nobody likes to be killed or see their family or friends killed. That is what was going on, death and famine.

You guys seem to forget that after the first Gulf War they DID rebel but were brutally put down because we didnt support them.

How would you like it if Cuba or North Korea (examples) invaded the US and tried to impose Communism on the US? Many would hate the idea, since they were taught that Communism is always bad. Some people would go along with the idea, and others will fight it until their death.

Except our form of government before we were invaded and made Communist didnt kill us if we spoke agaisnt it.

This is almost exacly like what they are going through, except they have more hatred for their occupiers than I feel/think the US does for either of the 2 examples I used.

If anyone tried to invade America you would see 10x the amount of guerillas and would put up a harder fight.

[ This Message was edited by: Dangerous55 on 2004-06-07 14:38 ]

Ness

Jun 7, 2004, 04:50 PM

On 2004-06-07 14:37, Dangerous55 wrote:

Where the hell did I say they wanted to change it?

I didn't say that you said that they wanted to change that. I was just telling you that if they couldn't change it even if they wanted to. I was responding to this statement:

They are free because they can say the government they have now is horrible and they want a new one.

Ketchup345

Jun 7, 2004, 05:03 PM

On 2004-06-07 14:37, Dangerous55 wrote:

On 2004-06-07 14:19, Ketchup345 wrote:
Yes, it may be a part of Human instinct, but we are talking about a society where they were forced to obey very strict laws, and follow orders from people, and where something like protesting for more freedoms could get you jailed (at least). These people have been trained to look down upon freedom, and some are clinging to that belief. Some don't want to be free. Not everyone likes everything.
Nobody likes to be killed or see their family or friends killed. That is what was going on, death and famine.
Right. But they were taught not to like freedom, since they were scared of what the Government would do to them if they talked openly about it. After a while, they accepted what they had, and now believe it is the best system for them; which it may very well be. People will follow their teachings, and depending on their beliefs in them, they will fight for them, passively or aggresively.
People are still being killed, now by their "libertators" and the opposition groups (if they are pro-US). Food, running water, and electricty is still not what it should be, especially since we have had over a year to fix these things. People are still seeing their friends and family killed, many by the US, others by "terrorists" and other "militias".

Why should the US go and make other countries follow our beliefs? Democracy isn't the best system (in theory Communism is better). Also, whenever the US puts someone in power, or tries to help them, it almost always comes back to bite us. Al Quada was trained by the US. We helped Saddam during the Cold War. We are not concentrating enough troops in Afghanistan, which can easily backfire since we would not be able to handle the mess that would happen if the Warlords overthrew the current government? The US doesn't have such a good record after and during wars with people it helped.

Ness

Jun 7, 2004, 06:07 PM

On 2004-06-07 15:03, Ketchup345 wrote:

Why should the US go and make other countries follow our beliefs? Democracy isn't the best system (in theory Communism is better). Also, whenever the US puts someone in power, or tries to help them, it almost always comes back to bite us. Al Quada was trained by the US. We helped Saddam during the Cold War. We are not concentrating enough troops in Afghanistan, which can easily backfire since we would not be able to handle the mess that would happen if the Warlords overthrew the current government? The US doesn't have such a good record after and during wars with people it helped.

I agree 100%. Just because we believe that our government is the best government out there doesn't mean that everyone else does. The fact that we are the most powerful and prosperous nation in the world doesn't automatically make us experts. As for Communism, it's the perfect government when put on paper, but when it actually executed, it fails. Speaking of perfect, what is good for one person may not be good for the other. I love democracy and my buddy Bill likes democracy, but that doesn't mean that Suzie down the street does too.

Firocket1690

Jun 7, 2004, 06:19 PM

On 2004-06-04 14:21, Ness wrote:
MTV/BET

I don't like either of them. They establish stereotypes that are harmful to African Americans.

They don't 'establish' anything. They play what people like. If rap is popular, then so be it.
I still hate eminem or whoever.

Oh, and that's one more thing, as far as african americans go, their music is often crammed together and labeled 'rap'. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_argh.gif
There is music besides rap that african americans enjoy writing/playing/listening to/.

R&B > all http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Beside that..
Ness is an attention whore. *agrees with blackrose* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Ketchup345

Jun 7, 2004, 06:38 PM

Another possible issue for this thread:
Opinions on the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Personally, I believe that everything should go back to the 1963 boarders and take down the wall. If Israel doesn't want to comply, threaten to use US force against them. I know this is unrealistic in current times, due to so many people in the government being pro-Israel, but I believe it would settle that conflict more or less, and take one thing away that terrorists hate us for.

[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2004-06-09 12:36 ]

Dangerous55

Jun 7, 2004, 06:44 PM

On 2004-06-07 14:50, Ness wrote:

I didn't say that you said that they wanted to change that. I was just telling you that if they couldn't change it even if they wanted to. I was responding to this statement:

All I am saying is I don't think they want too.

And yeah yeah yeah I know your guys position about how just because we use something doesnt mean they should have too. They can be raised to be used to living under tyrant all they want but no matter how you or they look at it, there better off now. The majority of them know it too, the people who are resisting are either not even Iraqi or just doing it to kill Americans.

Shigecki

Jun 7, 2004, 07:18 PM

On 2004-06-07 16:44, Dangerous55 wrote:
[quote]

And yeah yeah yeah I know your guys position about how just because we use something doesnt mean they should have too. They can be raised to be used to living under tyrant all they want but no matter how you or they look at it, there better off now. The majority of them know it too, the people who are resisting are either not even Iraqi or just doing it to kill Americans.

Or part of the Bath party that kind of liked it status quo, you know torture chambers, rape rooms, etc.

Ness

Jun 7, 2004, 07:53 PM

On 2004-06-07 16:19, Firocket1690 wrote:
They don't 'establish' anything. They play what people like. If rap is popular, then so be it.
I still hate eminem or whoever.

Have you seen the stuff they air on there? Have you interacted with people who watch that stuff on a regular basis? I'm not talking about the music, I'm talking about the shows that they air and the things they promote. When was the last time you saw a black person on MTV or BET that wasn't part of a stereotype or that wasn't ridiculed for not conforming to one?

Beside that..
Ness is an attention whore. *agrees with blackrose* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

That didn't stop you from posting here and satisfying my hunger for attention. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Ness on 2004-06-08 07:03 ]

Ness

Jun 9, 2004, 08:57 AM

On 2004-06-07 16:38, Ketchup345 wrote:
Another possible issue for this thread:
Opinions on the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Perdonally, I believe that everything should go back to the 1963 boarders and take down the wall. If Israel doesn't want to comply, threaten to use US force against them. I know this is unrealistic in current times, due to so many people in the government being pore-Israel, but I believe it would settle that conflict more or less, and take one thing away that terrorists hate us for.

Ah yes, that is an interesting issue. (sorry I didn't see this earlier).

Personally I think this whole thing is the UN's fault because they are the ones that put the Isrealites there. I don't think they have a right to be there. So what is it was their land 2000 years ago? The Middle east belonged to Mongolia 600 years ago and I don't see them trying to take it back.

Orange_Coconut

Jun 10, 2004, 08:26 PM

I have nothing really to add to others thoughts. I would like to say, however, that I am glad Massachusetts has legalized gay marriage. It is one step closer to uniting people in this world, and I have no doubt that there will be similar issues regarding certain groups of people in the future. I am glad that we have overcome this obstacle, even if it is just one step.

Another thing I would like to say, about obsession on appearance, everything seems so superficial in High School, but many still feel the need to blend in. I have had issues with how I appear to others, and I am guessing that many others have as well. It's hard to try to please everyone, and try to at least seem normal to others.

I would rather not put down, or rant about any other issues. I am not saying I have ill feelings toward all of the other topics, but at the moment I cannot think about what I would say for the rest.

I wish not to stir up any trouble, if any of my opinions annoy or offend anyone, please, PM me. If I have offended anyone, I am sorry. There is no possible way to please everyone around you.

WraithVerge

Jun 12, 2004, 12:49 AM

On 2004-06-10 18:26, Orange_Coconut wrote:
I have nothing really to add to others thoughts. I would like to say, however, that I am glad Massachusetts has legalized gay marriage. It is one step closer to uniting people in this world, and I have no doubt that there will be similar issues regarding certain groups of people in the future. I am glad that we have overcome this obstacle, even if it is just one step.

Uniting the people of this world... no. There will always be hate in some form or fashion. I have no other way to say this, so I'm going to create a fake scenario.

*Middle of the day, in a park.*

Person 1: Hey!
Person 2: Hello!
Me: Yo!
Person 1: I just slept with my daughter/wife! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif
Person 2: That's nothing! I just made love to a horse/wife! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
Me: Oh. my. GOD. My mind has been tainted!! *runs away while grasping head in agony*

Newsreporter 1: In today's news, it is now legal to marry your daughter/son and any sort of animal! What do you say, honey?
Newsreporter 2: HEE-HAW!

*end nightmare*

That is NOT something I want to happen...

---------------------------------------

On the subject of governments.

I doubt this will happen anytime soon, but imagine if the American government collapsed. What sort of chaos will happen? What new form of government will take over? Nothing lasts forever and the American government is bound to fall someday. It's just going to be strange when it DOES happen...

AquaFlare7

Jun 12, 2004, 02:50 AM

On 2004-06-10 18:26, Orange_Coconut wrote:
I have nothing really to add to others thoughts. I would like to say, however, that I am glad Massachusetts has legalized gay marriage.

You do realize that 60% of the residents voted no but they still had the power to overule the votes. It stems from there liberal extremist views.

On 2004-06-11 22:49, WraithVerge wrote:

On 2004-06-10 18:26, Orange_Coconut wrote:
I have nothing really to add to others thoughts. I would like to say, however, that I am glad Massachusetts has legalized gay marriage. It is one step closer to uniting people in this world, and I have no doubt that there will be similar issues regarding certain groups of people in the future. I am glad that we have overcome this obstacle, even if it is just one step.

Uniting the people of this world... no. There will always be hate in some form or fashion. I have no other way to say this, so I'm going to create a fake scenario.

*Middle of the day, in a park.*

Person 1: Hey!
Person 2: Hello!
Me: Yo!
Person 1: I just slept with my daughter/wife! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif
Person 2: That's nothing! I just made love to a horse/wife! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
Me: Oh. my. GOD. My mind has been tainted!! *runs away while grasping head in agony*

Newsreporter 1: In today's news, it is now legal to marry your daughter/son and any sort of animal! What do you say, honey?
Newsreporter 2: HEE-HAW!

*end nightmare*

That is NOT something I want to happen...

I agree. You know at one point people viewed it as destructive to have alcohol and decided on the prohibition act. Later everyone from drunk to average drinker petitioned and managed to get it reversed so that we may drink again. From my own life I have witnessed some of the strangest things being done just because enough people said it was ok. For you people who think it is right to have gay marriages do me a favor. Image one of the wrongest things that you can possibly do (in your opinion). Now imagine that out of the middle of nowhere people started banding together saying that it was ok. A law is then passed to allow this deed. Sounds crazy right? wrong, it happens ever day.

As for people telling me not to compare gay marriages with that of human animal, tell me a good reason not to, as they both came about the same way. Years ago it was deemed wrong to have homosexual relationships and it appauled people just as much as animal-human relationships appaul the majority today. However through desensitizing the general public to these things slowly through the years, we now have many misinformed people that believe it is ok because that is how they were raised. Just because people want something doesnt mean it is right, for instance how many of you have had, or want sex before marriage? I doubt there are many of you (especially males) who can say you would rather wait. Does this make it right all of the sudden to have pre-marital sex? So as much as you want to fight it I am just going to ask you one simple question. How would you like your decendants to marry only only animals and run around chopping each others tongues out to hang around their neck? Don't look at me like I am crazy because it can DEFINATELY happen. Right and Wrong have never changed since the beginning of time, only the minds of humans. Right and wrong were also around before morals. People use morals as an excuse to bend and stretch the rules.

If you are religous then let me tell you something, Sadam and Gamorrah were destroyed because of acts just like this (men sleeping with men). If you are not religious then at least look at the fact that it was wrong many years ago and ask yourself if right and wrong really do change.

Nai_Calus

Jun 12, 2004, 02:58 AM

Interesting mind you have there, AquaFlare.

So tell me, does it hurt to live in something that small?

AquaFlare7

Jun 12, 2004, 03:01 AM

On 2004-06-12 00:58, Ian-KunX wrote:
Interesting mind you have there, AquaFlare.

So tell me, does it hurt to live in something that small?

Now now, no need to flame me man! I'm only posting what was asked. I understand it is how you grew up and yes, you are still a good person. In fact your a pretty cool friend. But what if I grew up in a family where my father rapes me every night at 9? does it make it right now? Dont get me wrong, if I am taught that it is ok and people fight it, I would be posting the same exact thing you just did. Some things are still wrong though, no matter what you are taught.

Nai_Calus

Jun 12, 2004, 03:20 AM

Thousands of years ago, it was OK to stone your neighbours to death if they sinned.

Thousands of years ago, it was OK to grab a random animal, smack it on an altar and sacrifice it to God.

Hell, that kind of shit is advocated in the Bible.

Hey, right and wrong don't change, yeah?

You know, there's several girls at school who've commited adultery. Think I should stone them?

And I want to get on God's good side. Do you think he'd be fine with one of my cats, or should I use the neighbours' dog?

Hey, right and wrong don't change, and this stuff was in God's holy book! Which is never wrong!

Clearly we're fucked up for thinking stoning isn't a good thing and not sacrificing animals. Thank you for showing me the light.

And anyone who brings up sanctity of marriage gets their spleen stabbed out with a spork. Yeah, $69 Vegas weddings that end in divoce 6 months later are real holy and pure, and that gay couple who've been together for 20 years and finally got to tie the knot and have already been raising a happy, well-adjusted child for some time and will probably spend the rest of their lives together are a really horrible morally wrong couple of freaks.

There are genetic reasons against incest. Inbreeding can lead to some really ugly results. Hey guess what, John and Steve aren't going to be producing any children. Jane and Stacy theoretically could with some fucky manipulation of an egg cell, but hey, unless they're closely related somehow, what the hell does it matter if the kid has a father or not? Lots of kids grow up with just one parent, or with no parents, and they turn out OK. What's two mommies or two daddies gonna matter?

There isn't a bloody thing wrong with gay marriage. Anyone who says there is needs to be smacked.

Oh, and a question:

So, are you people as homophobically terrified at the idea of female-female sexual relations as you are of male-male? Also note that many heterosexual couples engage in anal sex. Also ask yourself if the only real problem you have is the sex.

Mutual love is mutual love, people. If I love someone and they love me back, how is it wrong, regardless of the sex of the other person?

And if you have economic objections, just think of all the money to be made on gay divorces. XP

AquaFlare7

Jun 12, 2004, 04:21 AM

On 2004-06-12 01:20, Ian-KunX wrote:
Thousands of years ago, it was OK to stone your neighbours to death if they sinned.

Thousands of years ago, it was OK to grab a random animal, smack it on an altar and sacrifice it to God.

Hell, that kind of shit is advocated in the Bible.

Hey, right and wrong don't change, yeah?

You know, there's several girls at school who've commited adultery. Think I should stone them?

And I want to get on God's good side. Do you think he'd be fine with one of my cats, or should I use the neighbours' dog?

Hey, right and wrong don't change, and this stuff was in God's holy book! Which is never wrong!

Clearly we're fucked up for thinking stoning isn't a good thing and not sacrificing animals. Thank you for showing me the light.

And anyone who brings up sanctity of marriage gets their spleen stabbed out with a spork. Yeah, $69 Vegas weddings that end in divoce 6 months later are real holy and pure, and that gay couple who've been together for 20 years and finally got to tie the knot and have already been raising a happy, well-adjusted child for some time and will probably spend the rest of their lives together are a really horrible morally wrong couple of freaks.

There are genetic reasons against incest. Inbreeding can lead to some really ugly results. Hey guess what, John and Steve aren't going to be producing any children. Jane and Stacy theoretically could with some fucky manipulation of an egg cell, but hey, unless they're closely related somehow, what the hell does it matter if the kid has a father or not? Lots of kids grow up with just one parent, or with no parents, and they turn out OK. What's two mommies or two daddies gonna matter?

There isn't a bloody thing wrong with gay marriage. Anyone who says there is needs to be smacked.

Oh, and a question:

So, are you people as homophobically terrified at the idea of female-female sexual relations as you are of male-male? Also note that many heterosexual couples engage in anal sex. Also ask yourself if the only real problem you have is the sex.

Mutual love is mutual love, people. If I love someone and they love me back, how is it wrong, regardless of the sex of the other person?

And if you have economic objections, just think of all the money to be made on gay divorces. XP

I see you too are religious. God never killed anyone for not sacrificing, nor for not stoning. what I do know is he destroyed great cities and guess what they were doing in the bedroom to cause it http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif I'm not homophobic, and in fact yes, I have gay friends. I am not going to stop talking to them just because they do something I dont agree with. Right and wrong have never changed. Maybe the way we punish them has (no stoning) but not right and wrong at its most basic level. If god wanted us to be gay then you would think the human body would be made compatible, hm? (I know this is said in almost every discussion, but maybe thats because nobody can give a good answer for it?)

As for the comment about slaying animals in sacrifice, God gave us animals to use as resources. I believe it was us who decided that we would use some of them as pets instead.

PS there are also genetic reasons not to be gay, ever here of aids?

[ This Message was edited by: AquaFlare7 on 2004-06-12 02:24 ]

AquaFlare7

Jun 12, 2004, 04:30 AM

On 2004-06-12 02:21, AquaFlare7 wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-06-12 01:20, Ian-KunX wrote:
Thousands of years ago, it was OK to stone your neighbours to death if they sinned.

Thousands of years ago, it was OK to grab a random animal, smack it on an altar and sacrifice it to God.

Hell, that kind of shit is advocated in the Bible.

Hey, right and wrong don't change, yeah?

You know, there's several girls at school who've commited adultery. Think I should stone them?

And I want to get on God's good side. Do you think he'd be fine with one of my cats, or should I use the neighbours' dog?

Hey, right and wrong don't change, and this stuff was in God's holy book! Which is never wrong!

Clearly we're fucked up for thinking stoning isn't a good thing and not sacrificing animals. Thank you for showing me the light.

And anyone who brings up sanctity of marriage gets their spleen stabbed out with a spork. Yeah, $69 Vegas weddings that end in divoce 6 months later are real holy and pure, and that gay couple who've been together for 20 years and finally got to tie the knot and have already been raising a happy, well-adjusted child for some time and will probably spend the rest of their lives together are a really horrible morally wrong couple of freaks.

There are genetic reasons against incest. Inbreeding can lead to some really ugly results. Hey guess what, John and Steve aren't going to be producing any children. Jane and Stacy theoretically could with some fucky manipulation of an egg cell, but hey, unless they're closely related somehow, what the hell does it matter if the kid has a father or not? Lots of kids grow up with just one parent, or with no parents, and they turn out OK. What's two mommies or two daddies gonna matter?

There isn't a bloody thing wrong with gay marriage. Anyone who says there is needs to be smacked.

Oh, and a question:

So, are you people as homophobically terrified at the idea of female-female sexual relations as you are of male-male? Also note that many heterosexual couples engage in anal sex. Also ask yourself if the only real problem you have is the sex.

Mutual love is mutual love, people. If I love someone and they love me back, how is it wrong, regardless of the sex of the other person?

And if you have economic objections, just think of all the money to be made on gay divorces. XP

I see you too are religious. God never killed anyone for not sacrificing, nor for not stoning, and if I remember correctly Jesus even prevented a hooker from being stoned. what I do know is he destroyed great cities and guess what they were doing in the bedroom to cause it http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif I'm not homophobic, and in fact yes, I have gay friends. I am not going to stop talking to them just because they do something I dont agree with. Right and wrong have never changed. Maybe the way we punish them has (no stoning) but not right and wrong at its most basic level. If god wanted us to be gay then you would think the human body would be made compatible, hm? (I know this is said in almost every discussion, but maybe thats because nobody can give a good answer for it?). There are also genetic reasons not to be gay, ever here of aids?

As for the comment about slaying animals in sacrifice, God gave us animals to use as resources. I believe it was us who decided that we would use some of them as pets instead.

PS I agree that the people who HATE gays need to be slapped (stoned? lol). I am not holier than you, nor are you holier than me. You simply have a different belief structure than that which I have learned. Since this is a topic that only God himself can end I would suggest that you pray about it. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but by the same token if I'm right I'm right.

[ This Message was edited by: AquaFlare7 on 2004-06-12 02:31 ]

Ketchup345

Jun 12, 2004, 07:18 AM

AquaFlare-
Not everyone is religous. Even some religous people are for the ability for gay couples to marry. Some religions don't care if you are gay or not, and they feel the same towards you. The US is supposed to have a separation of church and state (but that's not going well with Bush as president). Religion should not effect political decisions at all.

Having gays marry will not lead to people having sex with or marrying animals. People already do these things anyway. In some countries, you can be married to an animal for religous reasons.

About you saying gay people having sex is like sex with an animal:
Having sex with an animal is not love (well, in extreme cases it can be, but pretty much only one sided). These are two human beings who just want a few rights, and to be equal. They can't do anything destructive to this country, and it hasn't done anything bad in other countries where it is legal.

Years ago it was wrong to have a couple be of mixed background ("black" and "white"). That was proven stupid and wrong. What was once seen as wrong, can become seen as ok and in some cases, normal. Right and wrong do change, often and with the times.

If God didn't want us to be gay, he wouldn't have allowed people to think that way.

AIDS is not exclusive to gay people, many straight people have it now. Also, there is no proof as to where the virus originated. Some believe it origionated in monkeys, and someone had eaten a monkey that had SIV (the monkey form of HIV).

About the compatablity issue:
Does it matter that much? To some people, they don't care about the sex. They care about the love and the 1000+ rights that married people get (in many/most states, gay couples can't spend time with their significant other if they are in the hospital and there is restricted access to them; no matter how long they have been together).

Also, yes, to some groups/religions, God did kill people for not sacrificing.

Edit:
The US is supposed to be a free country with equal rights for all. Not everyone has equal rights yet, so thje US isn't living up to its "mission" yet.

Also, who is to say that having gays marry is wrong? The bible doesn't apply to everyone, so that is not what this country should use as a reason to not allow gays to legally marry. Some religions that follow the Bible are going against some of its teaching reguarding the issue (the gay minister or whatever being allowed to be promoted; and some marry gays).

[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2004-06-12 05:32 ]

Ness

Jun 12, 2004, 09:33 AM

Hey guys keep it down. I don't want this to get locked.

I was going to say something, but Ian and Ketchup have pretty much said anything I was going to say. So to keep this from being a spam post, I'll refute some of Aquaflare's claims.

I see you too are religious. God never killed anyone for not sacrificing, nor for not stoning, and if I remember correctly Jesus even prevented a hooker from being stoned. what I do know is he destroyed great cities and guess what they were doing in the bedroom to cause it I'm not homophobic, and in fact yes, I have gay friends.

Just because you have gay friends doesn't mean you are not homophobic. People make friends with those that they feel are inferior all the time. Racists have black friends, sexists have female friends, and homophobes have gay friends. Why?

1. It prevents them from being questioned.

2. It gives them something to use as a safety net if they are questioned.

3. They can put their views aside for the sake of social interaction.

I am not going to stop talking to them just because they do something I dont agree with. Right and wrong have never changed. Maybe the way we punish them has (no stoning) but not right and wrong at its most basic level.

They are being punished right now. As it stands now, an illegal immigrant that just hopped the border has more rights than a homosexual citizen. That is sad.

If god wanted us to be gay then you would think the human body would be made compatible, hm? (I know this is said in almost every discussion, but maybe that’s because nobody can give a good answer for it?).

It's mentioned in every discussion because that's the only thing homophobes have to justify their hate. Following that logic I could say that if god wanted women to do anything else but raise children, then why did they make them capable of giving birth? I could also say that if God wanted all the races to mix then why did he create different races in the first place? The Bible can be used to justify any form of hate.

Speaking of which, why are you for Women's rights? Don't you know that the Bible denounces those too? I find it funny that most Christians call on the Bible to justify their homophobia, but support women's rights despite what the Bible says against them. I guess its okay to obey the "word of God" sometimes, but not other, right?

Speaking of the phrase "word of God" so many people forget that the Bible was written by humans. Anytime a human writes something, bias and politics come into the text.

There are also genetic reasons not to be gay, ever here of aids?

I don't know who started that BS, but it was found in male homosexuals. That doesn't mean it started there. AIDs came from monkeys. Hunters in Africa were exposed to the blood of monkeys with PIV and the virus mutated into HIV. Also, if gays were the only ones that had AIDs, how did straight people get it?

AquaFlare7

Jun 12, 2004, 10:11 AM

On 2004-06-12 07:33, Ness wrote:

Just because you have gay friends doesn't mean you are not homophobic. People make friends with those that they feel are inferior all the time. Racists have black friends, sexists have female friends, and homophobes have gay friends. Why?

1. It prevents them from being questioned.

2. It gives them something to use as a safety net if they are questioned.

3. They can put their views aside for the sake of social interaction.

Hold the phone Ness, I make friends with some gays because they are cool and nice, not because I can hide behind them like a shield.

It's mentioned in every discussion because that's the only thing homophobes have to justify their hate. Following that logic I could say that if god wanted women to do anything else but raise children, then why did they make them capable of giving birth? I could also say that if God wanted all the races to mix then why did he create different races in the first place? The Bible can be used to justify any form of hate.

Many women do things other than raise children, I don't see you point in that statement at all. Also who specifically says that God wants all the races to mix? Anything can be used to try and justify hate, so you can't really say the bible alone.

Speaking of which, why are you for Women's rights? Don't you know that the Bible denounces those too? I find it funny that most Christians call on the Bible to justify their homophobia, but support women's rights despite what the Bible says against them. I guess its okay to obey the "word of God" sometimes, but not other, right?

Again, I am not a homophobe, but rather a person just like you with different views. Who said anything about womens rights?

Speaking of the phrase "word of God" so many people forget that the Bible was written by humans. Anytime a human writes something, bias and politics come into the text.

Any religious person will tell you, the book was not written by humans but rather "through" humans. Did you know that it is one of the only books to stay the same for so long, even down to punctuation? (The original hebrew one I think?).

There are also genetic reasons not to be gay, ever here of aids?
I don't know who started that BS, but it was found in male homosexuals. That doesn't mean it started there. AIDs came from monkeys. Hunters in Africa were exposed to the blood of monkeys with PIV and the virus mutated into HIV. Also, if gays were the only ones that had AIDs, how did straight people get it?

I never said that they were the only ones who contracted it, and you know just as well as I do that is just a theory. It is infact medically possible to contract aids through (im going to regret saying this >_<) anal sex. How do I know? My brother was in the medical feild at the time, and my girlfriends mother is in the feild right now. They both seem to say it is a "known" cause.

DarthFomar

Jun 12, 2004, 10:43 AM

I am not really for, nor am I against "Gay Marriage".......I'm an idle party. Well as far as the whole push comes to shove ideal *I guess*. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

"Whatever floats your boat"...*I love that phrase*. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Though it will be looked upon as blasphemy by some.......it is rather a good thing *as long as it doesn't get too carried away*, it should make people look upon the light of their personality as a whole {and not just look at them for being gay}.

It should make people realize they are people too, and they have feelings. Hell, maybe a majority of the abuse to gays might even stop.

Sure it was *unholy* and wrong back in the day *and it is probably still wrong* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif. But, look at this........a soldier fighting for his/her country dies in a very bloody war, he/she gave his life for everything he/she believed in; and lets say this man/woman happened to have been gay.

Now after what that person has done with their life *they are probably a good person*, I certainly feel they would be lifted to the heavens......not damned to the Hells. I think it all depends on personality.

The world has changed.......hopefully for the best. But, either way.......we won't live to see the next few centuries. Who knows........a few decades after we die an Asteroid could pummle the Earth?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-06-12 08:46 ]

Ketchup345

Jun 12, 2004, 10:59 AM

On 2004-06-12 08:11, AquaFlare7 wrote:
Again, I am not a homophobe, but rather a person just like you with different views. Who said anything about womens rights?

Any religious person will tell you, the book was not written by humans but rather "through" humans. Did you know that it is one of the only books to stay the same for so long, even down to punctuation? (The original hebrew one I think?).
How do you know the Bible wasn't written by humans to justify their existance and make everyone conform to some standards? It is possible.

And womeen went through something simial years ago, with their equal rights (which they still don't have all of).

I never said that they were the only ones who contracted it, and you know just as well as I do that is just a theory. It is infact medically possible to contract aids through (im going to regret saying this >_<) anal sex. How do I know? My brother was in the medical feild at the time, and my girlfriends mother is in the feild right now. They both seem to say it is a "known" cause.

Right, so AIDS is not a valid reason to stop gays from marrying. it is stupid to use it since it effects both types of people. Gays can get AIDS with or without being married.

Reasons that can't be used to deny them marriage:
1) AIDS
2) Sanctity of Marrage
3) Religion
4) I know there are more reasons, but I can't think of them now

Why they should be allowed to marry:
1) Equal rights, they are people
2) Love, what marrage is all about
3) Rights, over 1000 of them are denied to gay couples currently

AquaFlare7

Jun 12, 2004, 11:21 AM

Reasons that can't be used to deny them marriage:
1) AIDS
2) Sanctity of Marrage
3) Religion

What was your goal in even typing that? I think they are very good reasons to deny it. I dont care about giving gays rights to be supported equally but just dont make it marriage.

Ketchup345

Jun 12, 2004, 11:27 AM

On 2004-06-12 09:21, AquaFlare7 wrote:

Reasons that can't be used to deny them marriage:
1) AIDS
2) Sanctity of Marrage
3) Religion

What was your goal in even typing that? I think they are very good reasons to deny it. I dont care about giving gays rights to be supported equally but just dont make it marriage.

Why would they be good reasons to deny marage?

1) Anyone can gets AIDS. Allowing them to marry wouldn't so anything to the spreading of it
2) Marrage is already a joke, until people start taking it seriously (what was it, 2 days andthey were allowed to get an annulment?), it isn't a valid reason. If we want sanctity of marrage, we should start by doing something to prevent rapid marryings and divorces/annulments.
3) Religion can't be used in the US because there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. More than one religion is practiced here, and some religions veiw gay marrage as acceptable and not a bad thing.

Edit: My reason to type that was to say that those are not reasons that would be useful in a debate about gay marrage. I (and many others) have already suppoprted why these are bad reasons before.

[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2004-06-12 09:29 ]

AquaFlare7

Jun 12, 2004, 12:01 PM

On 2004-06-12 09:27, Ketchup345 wrote:

On 2004-06-12 09:21, AquaFlare7 wrote:

Reasons that can't be used to deny them marriage:
1) AIDS
2) Sanctity of Marrage
3) Religion

What was your goal in even typing that? I think they are very good reasons to deny it. I dont care about giving gays rights to be supported equally but just dont make it marriage.

Why would they be good reasons to deny marage?

1) Anyone can gets AIDS. Allowing them to marry wouldn't so anything to the spreading of it
2) Marrage is already a joke, until people start taking it seriously (what was it, 2 days andthey were allowed to get an annulment?), it isn't a valid reason. If we want sanctity of marrage, we should start by doing something to prevent rapid marryings and divorces/annulments.
3) Religion can't be used in the US because there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. More than one religion is practiced here, and some religions veiw gay marrage as acceptable and not a bad thing.

Edit: My reason to type that was to say that those are not reasons that would be useful in a debate about gay marrage. I (and many others) have already suppoprted why these are bad reasons before.

[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2004-06-12 09:29 ]

So what you saying is that I shouldnt be allowed to debate with reasons deamed wrong only by the for side? That is the whole point of debating! Im done here though. Just put it this way, if im wrong im wrong and nobody gets hurt. If im right then the only party getting hurt is the gay party....since it doesnt effect me and Ive already played my part im gonna leave this topic to the vultures to pick at.

KodiaX987

Jun 12, 2004, 12:22 PM

If I feel like fucking another man up the ass, you guys just try to stop me. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif It's no use arguing over sexual orientation when you know that whichever side you're for, nothing will change anyways.

Ketchup345

Jun 12, 2004, 12:30 PM

On 2004-06-12 10:01, AquaFlare7 wrote:
So what you saying is that I shouldnt be allowed to debate with reasons deamed wrong only by the for side? That is the whole point of debating! Im done here though.

But those reason are so easily wrong that it is stupid to waste your breath/fingers about them.

You can debate, but you need reasons that would actually hold up in the US.

Religion can't be used at all for a freason for anything that could be a law in the US.

AIDS everyone can get, not just gay couples. What relevence does this have at all?

Sanctity of marrage can be debated; but I'm sure most people think that there is no sanctity anymore.

Just put it this way, if im wrong im wrong and nobody gets hurt. If im right then the only party getting hurt is the gay party....since it doesnt effect me and Ive already played my part im gonna leave this topic to the vultures to pick at.
Yes, true. But think of how many thousands/millions of people will be getting hurt?

Why can't these people to be free to live how they want? Especially in a country that was based on equal rights for all and separation of church and state.

Ness

Jun 12, 2004, 01:57 PM

I looks like I'm going to have to go in-depth for this one.

On 2004-06-12 08:11, AquaFlare7 wrote:

Hold the phone Ness, I make friends with some gays because they are cool and nice, not because I can hide behind them like a shield.

I didn't you did. I was just stating that having gay friends doesn't prevent you from being homophobic.

Many women do things other than raise children, I don't see you point in that statement at all. Also who specifically says that God wants all the races to mix? Anything can be used to try and justify hate, so you can't really say the bible alone.

You missed my point entirely. My point is that you are using the way "God created us" as a reason to justify your views on gay marriage. I wasn't saying that you are racist or sexists, I was saying that those things could be justified following your logic.

Again, I am not a homophobe, but rather a person just like you with different views. Who said anything about womens rights?

You don't think gays should be allowed to marry. That sounds homophobic to me. Sure you may not be as homophobic as some, but you are still homophobic.

Any religious person will tell you, the book was not written by humans but rather "through" humans.

Of course they will because they want to believe in something that they more than likely haven't read (another argument in itself). The Bible was written by humans, that's it. It wasn't written through them. The proof? See below.

Did you know that it is one of the only books to stay the same for so long, even down to punctuation? (The original hebrew one I think?).

The Bible has not stayed the same; I don't know who told you that. They have found copies of the Bible from 1000 years ago, 600 years ago, and 500 years ago and they were all different. Also, you have seem to forgotten about all the stories left out of the Bible for political reasons. Ever heard Mary Madelene (sp.)? She was left out of the Bible because it showed a woman gaining ground over a man. There were also chapters of the Bible in which Jesus preached in a method that would be considered wrong by modern Christians.

I never said that they were the only ones who contracted it, and you know just as well as I do that is just a theory.

A very bad theory.

It is infact medically possible to contract aids through (im going to regret saying this >_<) anal sex. How do I know? My brother was in the medical feild at the time, and my girlfriends mother is in the feild right now. They both seem to say it is a "known" cause.
You say that as if that was the part that was being disputed. I know it can be contracted from anal sex.

Kent

Jun 12, 2004, 03:11 PM

On 2004-06-12 02:30, AquaFlare7 wrote:
If god wanted us to be gay then you would think the human body would be made compatible, hm? (I know this is said in almost every discussion, but maybe thats because nobody can give a good answer for it?).

Like many of the body's parts, the anus has more than one use.

On 2004-06-12 01:20, Ian-KunX wrote:
Mutual love is mutual love, people. If I love someone and they love me back, how is it wrong, regardless of the sex of the other person?

Love isn't wrong, love can't be wrong, it's a constant. If you truely love someone and they love you back, nothing should be able to get between you, not the government, and certainly not some overzealous freak and his storybook.

DarthFomar

Jun 12, 2004, 03:34 PM

On 2004-06-12 11:57, Ness wrote:

Again, I am not a homophobe, but rather a person just like you with different views. Who said anything about womens rights?

You don't think gays should be allowed to marry. That sounds homophobic to me. Sure you may not be as homophobic as some, but you are still homophobic.

I don't see how, in any way, that you can truely single out Aquaflare as homophobic......someone needs to get off the "high horse".

People have opinions....maybe Aqua just feels it's wrong, but does it by no means instantly classify him/her as a homophobe.

Geez, seriously, taking things a little too likely....... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ness

Jun 12, 2004, 03:43 PM

On 2004-06-12 13:34, DarthFomar wrote:
I don't see how, in any way, that you can truely single out Aquaflare as homophobic......someone needs to get off the "high horse".

How have I singled him out? I've argued with several other people who were agaisnt gay marriages. How have I treated him any differently? High horse? That implies that I feel I am better than him, which I don't.

People have opinions....maybe Aqua just feels it's wrong, but does it by no means instantly classify him/her as a homophobe.

Geez, seriously, taking things a little too likely....... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

It claissfies him as having homophobic ideas.

astuarlen

Jun 12, 2004, 05:16 PM

Any religious person will tell you, the book was not written by humans but rather "through" humans. Did you know that it is one of the only books to stay the same for so long, even down to punctuation? (The original hebrew one I think?).
Despite the blatant fallacy of this statement, if you truly believe in the authority of the Bible, perhaps you should pay more attention to it. I'm going to take a wild guess and say you profess to be Christian, correct? If you'll take a look at your Bible, you'll notice a little part called the New Testament. Read it, noting the passages where it is mentioned that Jesus associated with the outcasts of society and loved them as well as anyone, even though beliefs of the time held that such people were evil sinners of the worst order. According to Christianity, Jesus is the fullest revelation of God's will, so read his message and live it if this is what you believe. It's all about the love... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

I dont care about giving gays rights to be supported equally but just dont make it marriage.
Perhaps you're getting caught up on the word marriage. If you'd prefer, we can call it "civil union". Some churches can continue to live in the past if they so choose, but surely you wouldn't contest a secular union granted by the state? Gay marriage (civil union, if it suits you) hurts absolutely no one and benefits everyone, for isn't it best to promote a fair, open-minded society.

Newsreporter 1: In today's news, it is now legal to marry your daughter/son and any sort of animal! What do you say, honey?
Newsreporter 2: HEE-HAW!
It frustrates me to no end to hear people equate marriage or sex between two reasoning, loving adults with that between humans and animals or close relations. I think that's the most insensitive argument I have ever heard against gay marriage. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

As for people telling me not to compare gay marriages with that of human animal, tell me a good reason not to, as they both came about the same way.
They both come about the same way? Have you ever seen a man/woman and an animal fall deeply in love with eachother? I didn't think so. A healthy relationship, in my opinion, must be based on equality; where is the equality between man and animal? But two humans, no matter what kind of chromosomes they possess, are perfectly capable of caring for eachother on such a profound level that they make a conscious decision to spend their lives together. True love is so rare these days, it seems, that it's a terrible shame you would dare mar something so beautiful.

we now have many misinformed people that believe it is ok because that is how they were raised
On the flip side, there are many misinformed people who believe something is morally repugnant just because they were told such as a child.

Some things are still wrong though, no matter what you are taught.
I'm going to take a purely random stab in the dark here and propose that neither heterosexuals, homosexuals, nor bisexuals were taught to feel a certain way towards the oposite or same sex. One might try to supress his or her true feelings, but you cannot deny yourself. To use a very mild example, people used to believe that left-handedness was a sign of evil, so they attempted to force lefties to write with their right hand. Doesn't it seem completely unreasonable? What should it matter if you write, paint, or shake hands with your left or right hand? Well, what should it matter if your love is a man or a woman, so long as you love with all your heart?

If god wanted us to be gay then you would think the human body would be made compatible, hm?
Even if the human body is unable to produce children without a member of each sex, clearly the human mind and soul is capable of loving one of the same sex. If you could transplant your mind into a cardboard box, you would still have the capacity to love, despite the fact that a woman and cardboard box do not a child make.[/quote]

Alright, I could write so much more, but I'll leave you with this thought: imagine the tables were turned, and the things you've said against homosexuality were directed at you. It wouldn't be right, because you're a person, too, with very real feelings and a very real need to express those feelings without fear of censure or being treated as an inferior.

Nai_Calus

Jun 12, 2004, 05:29 PM

Just to clarify, I'm agnostic leaning towards atheism. XP

It's my dad that's religious, and it's from her that I pick up things.

Oh, yeah, by the way. She's a pre-op Male to Female transsexual. I'm transgendered myself, in the other direction.

Which is another bit of fuel to add to the fire of topics, transexuality and transgenderism.

Actually, here's a story on my dad from the Modesto, California paper: http://www.modbee.com/life/friendsfamily/story/8673405p-9547115c.html

It'll be interesting to see the arguments about this.

WraithVerge

Jun 12, 2004, 05:55 PM

Newsreporter 1: In today's news, it is now legal to marry your daughter/son and any sort of animal! What do you say, honey?
Newsreporter 2: HEE-HAW!
It frustrates me to no end to hear people equate marriage or sex between two reasoning, loving adults with that between humans and animals or close relations. I think that's the most insensitive argument I have ever heard against gay marriage. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

Wow... uhhh? No? I think you got the wrong idea in what I was saying... I don't care about gay marriages (they'd do better than the 'morning-married-night-divorced' people), but animal and daughter/son marriages I DO have problems with and I wish would never happen.

[ This Message was edited by: WraithVerge on 2004-06-12 15:55 ]

astuarlen

Jun 12, 2004, 06:01 PM

My apologies, WraithVerge. It's only that I could discern no reason for bringing up that particular topic aside from to compare the two subjects, and I have, regrettably, heard that argument too many times before.

DarthFomar

Jun 12, 2004, 08:05 PM

On 2004-06-12 13:43, Ness wrote:

On 2004-06-12 13:34, DarthFomar wrote:
I don't see how, in any way, that you can truely single out Aquaflare as homophobic......someone needs to get off the "high horse".

How have I singled him out? I've argued with several other people who were agaisnt gay marriages. How have I treated him any differently? High horse? That implies that I feel I am better than him, which I don't.

People have opinions....maybe Aqua just feels it's wrong, but does it by no means instantly classify him/her as a homophobe.

Geez, seriously, taking things a little too likely....... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

It claissfies him as having homophobic ideas.

There's is a major difference between "dislike" and "fear"....homophobes are fearful *in some manner* of homosexuals.

Disliking homosexuals doesn't exactly make you a homophobe........it could just mean that person in question doesn't agree with them?!

Don't be so quick to judge Aquaflare....... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-06-12 19:56 ]

Ness

Jun 12, 2004, 11:07 PM

On 2004-06-12 18:05, DarthFomar wrote:

Disliking homosexuals doesn't exactly make you a homophobe........it could just mean that person in question doesn't agree with them?!

Don't be so quick to judge Aquaflare....... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-06-12 19:56 ]

Homophobeis a general term used yto describe all thsoe that are predjudice agaisnt homosexauls or do not believe that they should be equal. That's not it's literal definition, but that's how its used.

DarthFomar

Jun 13, 2004, 05:39 AM

On 2004-06-12 21:07, Ness wrote:

On 2004-06-12 18:05, DarthFomar wrote:

Disliking homosexuals doesn't exactly make you a homophobe........it could just mean that person in question doesn't agree with them?!

Don't be so quick to judge Aquaflare....... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-06-12 19:56 ]

Homophobeis a general term used yto describe all thsoe that are predjudice agaisnt homosexauls or do not believe that they should be equal. That's not it's literal definition, but that's how its used.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Well it shouldn't be used like that.........

"Phobia" translates into "fear"......

1. homophobe -- (a person who hates or fears homosexual people).

That's webster's look upon the term, anywho. How people actually take it is a different story, I guess. But you should realize that a person that dislikes homosexuals isn't always going to be a homophobe. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-06-13 03:40 ]

tippygcn

Jun 13, 2004, 09:24 AM

Gay rights
Nothing wrong with it.
Modern Religion
Religion is fine.
MTV/BET
In my opinion, garbage.
Foolish Lawsuits
Too many people take unimportant or trivial things to court.
Contemporary Art
???
George Bush
...
The War in Iraq and the War on Terror
Too... Much... Dying....
Affirmative Action
I forget what this was.
Space Travel
Such a vast,empty,and cold that society must know every thing about.
Mars and Moon Colonies
Colonization would be good.
Pop Culture
Don't care.
Obsession with Appearance
For the really self-concious and concieted
Abortions
I have no place in this debate.
Separation of Church and State
Law is not decided by which god you believe in.
The Paranormal
???
Aliens
We could be the last civilization alive, and the universe is coming to an end. We also could be closer than you thing to aliens, though its possible were are my advanced.

[ This Message was edited by: tippygcn on 2004-06-13 07:25 ]

echo-2003

Jun 13, 2004, 01:41 PM

Gay rights
If two adults want to be together so be it. It's of no concern to me nor should it be to anyone else.

Modern Religion
All religion belongs in the garbage. It has done no good and is only a dillusion for the weak minded so they can feel important in a universe bigger then imagination.

MTV/BET
Don't watch either, never will. Waste of good air space.

Foolish Lawsuits
People only do this because they KNOW they can get away with it or at least more often then not. The Law needs to be 'reformatted' to combat this kind of stupidity.

Contemporary Art
Don't care but I will appreciate anyone's desire for it.

George Bush
Don't trust him

The War in Iraq and the War on Terror
I think the trade centre tragedy was setup so the bush government would have an excuse to go in there. I don't like guys like saddam or any of those types, but you don't defeat evil by becoming it.

Affirmative Action
Undecided.

Space Travel
One day we WILL have to go to the stars so R&D is needed to make this possible. Perhaps solving earths problems is a good idea first but we can't neglect this as it is humanities future.

Mars and Moon Colonies
This would be the first step but ultimatly exploring the universe and learning about everything we come across s neccessary for our growth as a race. One day our sun will exhaust it's fuel and expand then collapse into a blackhole, I don't want to be here when that happens personally.

Pop Culture
Boring and over-rated

Obsession with Appearance
See pop culture

Abortions
I'm pro choice.

Separation of Church and State
The chruch has held back humanity for the most part so the faster it becomes abolished the better off we will be.

The Paranormal
Can't say I've ever experienced anything like that but I admit there are things that can't be explained. I do think we as humans have latent ablilties like telepathy.

Aliens
It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for us to be alone in our galaxy much less the universe. But i will say here and now I have had a UFO encounter (saw it from my window) so since that night I have KNOWN we are not alone (thank goodness for that).