Martial Artists....

[Aredhel]

or anyone else who would like to give their opinion (like anything anyone could ever say would actually stop that).

Anyways, (sry http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

Does anybody use devices in their stretching to help them go farther? I'm considering buying this...

http://www.centuryfitness.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&productId=65199&langId=-1&product_parentId=13517&crumb=13501&categoryId=13517&parent_category_rn=13512

and would like any recommendations/comments people have regarding straddle-racks. Are they dengerous? The price really isn't all that important to me, as I love the martial arts and would love to be able to attain the splits and beyond (it goes to 190 - OUCH!). Right now I think i'm sitting at about 160 degrees stretch without devices to aid me - would this just be a waste of time? I really want to kick just like Bill Wallace! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Solstis]

I never actually measured how low I could go (limboo!) in degress, but let me see.

*feels old*

Ow, well, I'm obviously out of shape now.

Hm, I never used machines, just lots and lots of stretching to attain limberness.

I used to be pretty durn close to the ground too.

*sigh*

And to annoying people: Yes, guys can do splits too, and no, yer genitals won't explode.

[Sagasu]

On 2004-06-28 22:07, Solstis wrote:


And to annoying people: Yes, guys can do splits too, and no, yer genitals won't explode.




I am the living proof of this http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

No, never bought machines, just stretched, excersised, and got thrown around at M arts a lot http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sarunakai on 2004-06-28 22:18 ]</font>

[HUnewearl_Meira]

Dude... Do you honestly want to spend $200 on a machine that does something that your own body weight can do for you? I mean really, what does a machine like that have on a good 150 pounds or so? Just do it the old fashioned way... Remember that sometimes the fast way isn't the better way. By doing it the slow way, you exercise more muscles and learn more patience and discipline. I think that's a little more important.

[Fyrin]

Bruce Lee, a philosopher, and a strong willed fighter.

[Aredhel]

I agree Meira, but I've heard from a lot of people that stretching atraight down on your hips will indeed stretch your muscles out, but will cause hip problems about 20 years down the road. I've used stretch devices before and they truly don't strain the hips as much as going straight down, especially if they have proper back support like this one...

But I'm just the Devil's Advocate http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

What do you guys use to attain splits? (stretches, that is)

[Aredhel]

Bruce used loads of training and stretching devices - ever see his workout room? If they had Versaflex devices in his day, I can almost guarantee Bruce would have one. He wasn't some mystical God who trained on top of misty oriental mountains - he used what worked and as far as that goes I see no reason NOT to use a stretching device.

Admittedley, Bruce needed to attain peak physical performance for his latest show, movie or appearance and since they, uh...

recently, uh...cancelled...my, uh..movie http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I suppose I don't have a justifiable reason to want to achieve the highest kicks I can - but I know I do Tae Kwon Do to perfect an art and do whatever I can to help this. I have no convictions when it comes to upholding some pattern that's been passed down for centuries: birth, hard work, patience, discipline, and death. There's simply no reason to repeat this cycle again - I'd prefer to reach my peak as early as possible, then transcend that by whatever means.

[Sagasu]

Your life, you can do as you please.

Splits? I'm just realy flexible. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[HUnewearl_Meira]

Just try harder, dude... Bruce Lee may've been a heck of a Martial Artist, but professionally speaking, it was more important for him to look impressive than for anything to actually be functional (not to say that he couldn't kick the ass of just about anyone who's posted in this thread). I might also point out that Bruce Lee's style didn't emphasize high kicks, because they take longer.

In any case, I don't know much about doing splits, but I do know that my wife and several of her siblings were in Gymnastics for a great many years, and never needed any help from a machine to achieve the splits.

Never rely on a machine to do anything for you, what you can do for yourself.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HUnewearl_Meira on 2004-06-29 09:33 ]</font>

[Gnarled_rose]

With all the conspiracies surrounding his death, it's pretty eerie to note that his son also died while making a movie. (Brandon Lee, The Crow) I'm sure some conspiracy nuts can back me up on this.
He was a pretty great philosopher, and partially/fully responsible for many martial artists/actors rise to fame. I know that some of his students were Kareem Abdul-Jabaar(sp?), Chuck Norris (who added the only high kick to Jeet Kun Do), Jackie Chan was in a movie with him (as a lackey, no less), and please add more if I've missed some.
I think him and David Carradine had some good stuff to say which often gets obscured or forgotten in the wake of their careers.

[Aredhel]

Just to clarify things - I am male. This means that I lack certain chemicals in my body (specific doses, at the least) such as estrogen and a special chemical in women called relaxin. Relaxin flows through women's hips and groin and allows them to relax and stretch their muscles for process such as passing children through and, erm... spreading their legs - this is why most women have really high kicks and great stretching and splits on their first day - it is much easier for them to be adept at Martial Arts, gymnastics, and the like.

It is also true that much of what we saw of Bruce Lee was just flash and he had to maintain an outward appearance for his credibility - but he is also responsible for his purely non-style reality-based fighting (non)art Jeet Kune Do - it had principles based not only on moral philosophy but in serious self-defense. Jeet Kune Do not only disregarded stylistic inhibitions that stunted the growth and development of other traditional Martial Arts but disapproved of their limits. Bruce was a strong promoter of whatever works. As such, it is true that he rarely busted out a jump-720 tornado kick to the face - but not because he couldn't, but because (this was already mentioned) it just took too long.

Consider what high kicks do - they allow you kick someone in the face who is taller than you are - big deal, right? Now I, just like Bruce Lee, am only 5'8" - not so tall at all. Though I can still kick someone who is 6'4" in the face, I would love to kick a 7" tall person in the face - if the need ever arose (God, I hope not...) Far more important than kicking someone in the nose is what flexibility truly does for the serious competitor - greater range of body motion. This means that the more flexible you are, the higher you can kick - but this also means that the more flexible you are the farther away you can kick someone from. From a Jeet Kune Do standpoint, this is essential: if you are a disciple of the intercepting fist, intercepting that fist from farther away is paramount to your well-being.

I am almost convinced that there is a certain point to which one just cannot stretch any farther without the aid of a partner or a device. I was truly seeking someone who may have once owned a Versaflex or other device - would anyone recommend this?

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2004-06-29 12:22, Aredhel wrote:
Just to clarify things - I am male. This means that I lack certain chemicals in my body (specific doses, at the least) such as estrogen and a special chemical in women called relaxin. Relaxin flows through women's hips and groin and allows them to relax and stretch their muscles for process such as passing children through and, erm... spreading their legs - this is why most women have really high kicks and great stretching and splits on their first day - it is much easier for them to be adept at Martial Arts, gymnastics, and the like.


My brother-in-law is better at doing the splits than my wife (or their sister for that matter, and she's the competitive gymnast of the three), and that's with fewer years of Gymnastics training. In this case, the chemical differences are negligible.

And as important as flexibility is, it's not as important to intercepting a kick or punch as you might think, in contrast to general speed and mobility. Simply being moderately flexible should be plenty enough for you to block, catch or counter most attacks, as there really isn't a whole lot of movement involved in these things if you're doing them properly.

Never buy a machine unless its use will pay for itself. You might be able to justify spending the money if you are going to start shooting a movie next month, and you absolutely *need* to be able to do the splits by then, but otherwise it's only going to be $200 spent on a goal you didn't need the product to achieve.

Still, it's your money. If you believe that it's worth it, then don't let me stop you.

[Aredhel]

Good advice - I don't really have room for it anyways http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Just to make sure we're on the same page, by interception I do mean blocking with a counter. The concept Lee speaks of is, of course, very difficult to grasp, but he predicted that the most effecient method of self-defense is hitting them before they hit you - but not throwing the first punch. It's really a shame he died so young...

As far as flexibility goes boys vs. girls - I should have mentioned that on the average, girls are more flexible than boys. Age always plays a role as well, and there are definitely exceptions to every situation.

[darthsaber9x9]

can i just ask, WHOSE FAULT WAS IT THAT THE PAGE IS REALLY FUCKING WIDE?

[Aredhel]

me - my huge link at top is responsible for this. I never noticed because of the resolution on my screen...

[Gnarled_rose]

On 2004-06-29 14:33, Aredhel wrote:
Just to make sure we're on the same page, by interception I do mean blocking with a counter. The concept Lee speaks of is, of course, very difficult to grasp, but he predicted that the most effecient method of self-defense is hitting them before they hit you - but not throwing the first punch. It's really a shame he died so young...

Yeah...Apparently, not because he was a totally awesome dude or anything, we just need him to EXPLAIN a few things to the American public. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif His book's like the Bible, it's being "translated" so often. Not saying I disagree with Aredhel, but I've heard different standpoints on it.

[Fyrin]

Jeet kune do is actually not exactly an art of self defense.

Like expressed by Bruce Lee "Jeet Kune Do favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms and since Jeet Kune Do has no style, it can fit with all styles."

The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify.

Learning Jeet Kune Do is not a matter seeking knowledge or accumulating stylized pattern, but is dicovered the cause of ignorance.

[Aredhel]

Nobody is wrong here - Bruce deliberately left his book open for interperetation - the true tragedy here is that he never lived to complete it. Tao of Jeet Kune Do is a compilation of Bruce's notes and occaisional finished chapters that Bruce managed to complete when he was bed-ridden from back injury. And as such, people are always trying to make it an art form or a form of self-defense (even me - whoops http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif ) when it is truly the formless form. When reading it, I couldn't help but think that it was all just a crock of shit that implied far too much for any single person to...not...endure as far as....non-philosphy. But it's an interesting read regardless of what you (don't) take out of it.

From what I gathered he had certain principles such as formlessness (like water) and the ability to take any martial form and thus subscribe to none. All sort of a Martial-Timothy Leary-esque kind of non-beliefs system (er, non-system.....Damn you Bruce!)

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Fyrin]

I read a passage of Bruce Lee's book every night then I exercise.

[Aredhel]

And that's truly much more important than talking about it. I put on some music and do my slow kicks followed by stretching. I usually just plant one foot at the end of my bed and another at the edge of my dresser, I then just slide my hips forwrd so I stretch to do splits - that's why I wanted a machine to help me do it, it would be the same stretch, just faster and more effecient.

[InfernoNR7]

On 2004-06-28 22:02, Aredhel wrote:
Right now I think i'm sitting at about 160 degrees stretch without devices to aid me - would this just be a waste of time? I really want to kick just like Bill Wallace! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif


I was in Tae Kwon Do for 9 1/2 years (I recently quit due to circumstances pretty much beyond my control) and I wasn't even that far in the splits, but I never felt affected in Sparring, Forms, board breaking etc. when I was one of the only peple that couldn't do the splits...... I personally don't see the point of going much further than what you're at since it's not like you're kicking someone on TOP of you. It's all for show. Now, if you're really big into demoes and stuff like that, I'd say GO FOR IT! Just my opinions.

In a nutshell: Do whatever suits you.
BTW, I know that was kinda off topic, my TKD instructors and students didn't use this type of stuff, and they could do the splits. I think this might simply make it a bit easier, though not too much.

[Fyrin]

Though I could the splits, its because I grew up with my sister making me do gymnastics and such. (quite embarrasing...) Anyhow, one most be strong mentally as well as physically in order to be a skilled martial artist.

It is through Tao of Jeet Kune Do, I becoming more aware of my mind.

[Aredhel]

I really wasn't into sports as a kid. I began TKD when I was 14 and it seems like every class is better than the next - I wish I'd began much earlier. I've been instructing now for about 2 years and have been in TKD for about 4 years. As I said before, greater flexibility gives you greater range of motion - the perfection of the martial arts is, in my mind, not just the most effecient street-fighting: this is another sickness all its own. Those who wish to only take the martial arts for a single benefit will not find great joy in it and will just not last.

[InfernoNR7]

On 2004-06-30 20:33, Aredhel wrote:
I really wasn't into sports as a kid. I began TKD when I was 14 and it seems like every class is better than the next - I wish I'd began much earlier. I've been instructing now for about 2 years and have been in TKD for about 4 years. As I said before, greater flexibility gives you greater range of motion - the perfection of the martial arts is, in my mind, not just the most effecient street-fighting: this is another sickness all its own. Those who wish to only take the martial arts for a single benefit will not find great joy in it and will just not last.


Instructing for 2 years? and you only have 4 years of experiance? Wow. I've had 9 1/2 years, and I'm 14, and, before I quit, I got a Jr. Instructor cert. Lucky is all I can say.

PS, I'm NOT doubting you skill, just making an observation.

[Aredhel]

Well, when i began instructing I was a red belt (about 3 belts behind black for our system) and I was 15 - I'm not implying that you're immature by any stretch of the imagination (or that I was exceptionally mature for that matter http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif) but the senior belts felt I was worthy of getting to teach some classes of my own. I was started out with just kids, then just adults - now I teach just about everyone (including classes with 2nd degree black-belts...how does that work? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif) but it's all about relating to the people in your class. Treat them as paying customers, friends and fellow disciples of the Martial Way and you just can't go wrong - no matter what age or belt you are! I wish I'd joined when I was 5- experience is very important, especially to the initial credibility of any instructor.

[InfernoNR7]

On 2004-07-02 20:40, Aredhel wrote:
Well, when i began instructing I was a red belt (about 3 belts behind black for our system) and I was 15 - I'm not implying that you're immature by any stretch of the imagination (or that I was exceptionally mature for that matter http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif) but the senior belts felt I was worthy of getting to teach some classes of my own. I was started out with just kids, then just adults - now I teach just about everyone (including classes with 2nd degree black-belts...how does that work? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif) but it's all about relating to the people in your class. Treat them as paying customers, friends and fellow disciples of the Martial Way and you just can't go wrong - no matter what age or belt you are! I wish I'd joined when I was 5- experience is very important, especially to the initial credibility of any instructor.


Yea, half the reason I quit is because they had incompetent people instructing when they were on vacation (or in a coma becaue the one was in a crash that was his falt [really bad driver]). I got to 2nd black, but would've been 3rd, but it's a LONG story. I loved to teach, but after moving 4 times after I started, I just didn't know the material for their organization of TKD well enough, espically because I had been with this organization before I moved here (American TKD Assoc.). Once I got here they taught WAY differently, didn't teach me ANYTHING, and pretty much let me sit in class and work out too much so that I was too tired to actually practice. Gah, my school wasn't that great. I wish I still lived in Athens, GA, just for my TKD school, I'd definately be teaching there.

Well, there's my half rant thing.

[Solstis]

On 2004-07-02 20:49, InfernoNR7 wrote:


On 2004-07-02 20:40, Aredhel wrote:
Well, when i began instructing I was a red belt (about 3 belts behind black for our system) and I was 15 - I'm not implying that you're immature by any stretch of the imagination (or that I was exceptionally mature for that matter http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif) but the senior belts felt I was worthy of getting to teach some classes of my own. I was started out with just kids, then just adults - now I teach just about everyone (including classes with 2nd degree black-belts...how does that work? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif) but it's all about relating to the people in your class. Treat them as paying customers, friends and fellow disciples of the Martial Way and you just can't go wrong - no matter what age or belt you are! I wish I'd joined when I was 5- experience is very important, especially to the initial credibility of any instructor.


Yea, half the reason I quit is because they had incompetent people instructing when they were on vacation (or in a coma becaue the one was in a crash that was his falt [really bad driver]). I got to 2nd black, but would've been 3rd, but it's a LONG story. I loved to teach, but after moving 4 times after I started, I just didn't know the material for their organization of TKD well enough, espically because I had been with this organization before I moved here (American TKD Assoc.). Once I got here they taught WAY differently, didn't teach me ANYTHING, and pretty much let me sit in class and work out too much so that I was too tired to actually practice. Gah, my school wasn't that great. I wish I still lived in Athens, GA, just for my TKD school, I'd definately be teaching there.

Well, there's my half rant thing.



UTF roxs!

Yeah, I did about 5 years, did the assistant instructor thing for about a year and a half... I think.

Due to the looming presence of college, I opted out of going thru the instructor training course.

On topic: Yeah, machines are not very necessary, and Bruce Lee = genius.

[InfernoNR7]

I think assistant instructor is overrated, and, unless you're being payed, it can either be like an internship, or like them needing more unpayed instructors and duping you (and I don't use duping like duplicating, duh).

[Solstis]

On 2004-07-02 21:55, InfernoNR7 wrote:
I think assistant instructor is overrated, and, unless you're being payed, it can either be like an internship, or like them needing more unpayed instructors and duping you (and I don't use duping like duplicating, duh).



Not like I was forced into it 0_o.

I wanted the experience, etc.

[InfernoNR7]

On 2004-07-02 21:57, Solstis wrote:
Not like I was forced into it 0_o.

I wanted the experience, etc.


I wasn't forced, I was tricked, it was all hyped up, and we were "specially picked" and we had to do special testing etc. all to stand around play sparring with lil kids, helping kids with side-kicks, etc. my first ATA school was great (though a bit easy on the workout), my second one, the Jr. Instructors weren't really doing anything and I got treated badly there, so I quit. It all depends on your school if Assisstant is worth it or not in the long run.

[Aredhel]

For about the lest 6 months, I've been attending class 4 days a week for about 14 hours each week, taking 4 hours of class (teaching that, actually) and instructing for the other 10. if we taught 10 classes each month, our tuition was totally payed for - anything after that was to be compensated and we got $10 for every class we taught for. So each month I was entitled to about $300 for doing my hobby... pretty cool, huh? Thing is, I never claimed the money - I just preferred to do it for free seeing as how I loved it so much and I loved my school. Now that I moved away about a week ago, I don't know what I'm going to do... anyone know any excellent Martial Arts schools in south Florida (Naples)?

[InfernoNR7]

On 2004-07-03 07:58, Aredhel wrote:
For about the lest 6 months, I've been attending class 4 days a week for about 14 hours each week, taking 4 hours of class (teaching that, actually) and instructing for the other 10. if we taught 10 classes each month, our tuition was totally payed for - anything after that was to be compensated and we got $10 for every class we taught for. So each month I was entitled to about $300 for doing my hobby... pretty cool, huh? Thing is, I never claimed the money - I just preferred to do it for free seeing as how I loved it so much and I loved my school. Now that I moved away about a week ago, I don't know what I'm going to do... anyone know any excellent Martial Arts schools in south Florida (Naples)?


Search on the internet. I know that ATA is pretty good, and is, again, what I was in for the past 4 years. It's pretty cool that you got payed. I simply don't have the time to keep up with all my honors clases and teach that much.

[Fyrin]

I know of someone who went to ATA and said that it was a waste of time, that it was too easy to get a black belt in tae kwon do.

[Aredhel]

I was in a WTF school, so it would be nice to attend one where I'd be slightly familiar with the curriculum, but it would also be nice to learn some totally new stuff! the world is my oyster...

damnit.

I got my black belt in TKD in 3.5 years - I know people who got theirs in 8 years, people who got theirs in 2 years, some who even have yet to get theirs after 10 years' experience. It truly does not fucking matter in the slightest bit. Just because you're a black belt doesn't mean shit except for the fact that you may have been doing this whole Martial arts thing for a while. Some people use it as some sort of status symbol to hide behind, when in actuality they can't even kick above their knees or show you a proper front stance.

The only thing that;s important is that each TaeKwonDo denomination (UTF, ATA, WTF, ITF, etc..whatever) has its particular scale of belt rankings so that tournament competitors are against people who have had just as much oppurtunity for perfection as they have - but even then, it's possible to OWN the game with hard work and determination.

So truly, there is no reason the be afraid of 'getting your black belt early' - especially when it's truly no certain indicator or skill, only longevity.

[InfernoNR7]

On 2004-07-03 21:01, Aredhel wrote:
I was in a WTF school, so it would be nice to attend one where I'd be slightly familiar with the curriculum, but it would also be nice to learn some totally new stuff! the world is my oyster...

damnit.

I got my black belt in TKD in 3.5 years - I know people who got theirs in 8 years, people who got theirs in 2 years, some who even have yet to get theirs after 10 years' experience. It truly does not fucking matter in the slightest bit. Just because you're a black belt doesn't mean shit except for the fact that you may have been doing this whole Martial arts thing for a while. Some people use it as some sort of status symbol to hide behind, when in actuality they can't even kick above their knees or show you a proper front stance.

The only thing that;s important is that each TaeKwonDo denomination (UTF, ATA, WTF, ITF, etc..whatever) has its particular scale of belt rankings so that tournament competitors are against people who have had just as much oppurtunity for perfection as they have - but even then, it's possible to OWN the game with hard work and determination.

So truly, there is no reason the be afraid of 'getting your black belt early' - especially when it's truly no certain indicator or skill, only longevity.


I as well do not care about your belt color. The only thing I think a belt means is the amount of info you've been given. NEVER have I EVER thought that belt color matters. I think ATA is fun, and it simply depends on your instructors, in my first ATA school, my instructors were easy, here, they are HARD! and if you're not someone with TONS of energy, you won't succeed here. Also, I have ALWAYS hated the belt system my past schools have done. They set an amount of time in between each testing, so you have no chance to move up in rank any faster than the kid next to you that has no clue what he's doing.

[Aredhel]

Oh, here we go! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

http://www.wengl.tomsk.ru/imeges/Outside.jpg

[InfernoNR7]

Do you have famliy members? You probably do. Just get them to hold your legs for you. Put on your uniform, your belt, have them grab your belt, pull, and push your inner thighs with their feet. Put your leg on your family member's shoulder and have them stand up while you use the wall for support. I'm sure you have done these excersises at your school, this is just another waste of money in my opinion.

[Aredhel]

I wasn't actually considering buying the crazy russian contraption, I only buy domestic http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I really prefer to stretch and work out alone, and I have done the stretches with a partner just as you're talking about - The thing is, it's a lot easier to go too far all at once when somebody else is stretching you out for you. By the time you say "OUCH!" you may have stretched out an extra inch too far - especially when you're with someone you don't really trust. None of my good friends do TKD, so I'm kind of in a rut as far as partner stretching goes - that's why i'm still considering buying a versaflex.