Double Cannon or Black King Bar?

[Dice788]

which would be easier to obtain? which is better? i have 16 photon drops as of right now. i have a redria in hard Caves.

[Aredhel]

Great question, but only because there is no definite answer. Double Cannon is an excellent weapon, as is BKB (especially when fully ground *drool*), but you can only attain Black King Bar online by gambling your PDs. Double Cannon is somewhat easier (hehe, I'll burn for that last stement http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif) only because the ingredients it requires are fully pipeable; get a Redria and an Oran on Ultimate and you're pretty much good to go for mere piping. Ultimately, go for them both - you'll get some great characters and some ultimate (legit) melee weapons for all your hard work.

[Quo]

Because the Double Cannon is ungrindable, BKB has the potential to be stronger in sheer ATP. The Double Cannon does, however have BKB beat in the ATA department. Also, Double Cannon gets a greater shifta boost than the BKB. Which is better? There is no answer to that question.

As Aredhel said, both components of the Double Cannon are pipable offline. However the drop rates are both 1/22, and calling out the rare monsters can be a royal pain in the arse (trust me, I speak from experience). MKB, the only component of the BKB that should give you any trouble, can be moderately difficult to find as well, but not nearly as bad as a Lavis Cannon.

[Dice788]

i think im going to look for the Monkey King Bar first since i already have a skyly in ult (1/394 chance from Mericarol) and i have a friend that has a redria RAmar that might be able to do seabed or do TTF for lavis cannon. im just going to play it out and see how the online hunting goes. if anyone wants to play with me, just look for the Black HUcast that goes by |).|.<.E.

[Eihwaz]

BKB is made from a 10-star rare, and an item you can buy for PDs. It is the strongest Double Saber in the game. The MKB is not too incredibly rare, but some people *coughIancough* have had a terrible time getting one.

Double Cannon is made from a 11-Star Rare, and 2 Syncestas, both of which can be pipeable from the right IDs (Both have a 1/22 drop rate from the appropriate rare enemy). It is weaker than BKB, but has 2 more ATA (big whoop, heh).

Personally, I'd go with Double Cannon, simply becuase it looks so cool. Most people won't believe that your BKB is legit, and will thusly be a loud asshole about it...

...of course, no one is going to believe your Double Cannon is legit either. XD

Teh spinny. n_n

EDIT: I are stupid! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eihwaz on 2004-07-21 20:05 ]</font>

[Firocket1690]

Basically, wazzy meant You need two systeca thingimabobs for it.

That, and people will believe you got a legit double cannon, but you can't get a legit bkb. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Firocket1690 on 2004-07-21 20:01 ]</font>

[SpyroDi]

I like the Double Cannon better,because it looks more funky.

[Gjl]

BKB = ugly, common and bland looking. That's all you need to hear. Get a Double Cannon I say http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif.

[KaFKa]

double cannons are (in my not-so-humble opinion) the better weapon. having seen a hacked BKB in action, i was able to keep up with a n00bmar using a hacked BKB with lavis BLADES. thats right, i was able to keep up with a BKB with a seemingly inferior weapon.

the reason why? it is a ranged weapon as well. that little special button has a use. those beams are seriously useful when you can hit them from a (little bit less?) handgun's range. oh noes, you lose something like 1/12th of your hp when you use it, nothing a quick mate or resta cant fix. (especially when you're in ult resta shielding.)

[Eihwaz]

On 2004-07-22 03:12, KaFKa wrote:
double cannons are (in my not-so-humble opinion) the better weapon. having seen a hacked BKB in action, i was able to keep up with a n00bmar using a hacked BKB with lavis BLADES. thats right, i was able to keep up with a BKB with a seemingly inferior weapon.


The fact that daggers are much faster than Double Sabers MIGHT have something to do with that. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

But yes, Double Cannons are IMO better. Simply becuase they're cooler. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Jason]

DC is better for me. It is a classic weapon. More ATA than a BKB, but a fully grinded BKB have more ATP. But as a DC have more shifta boost, it is stronger in ATP in that way than a BKB. Both weapons have a really small difference in ATP, so they are practically the same in power.

Special attack of a BKB is more effective (and faster killing) than the one of a DC, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, a BKB's special attack have no effect on bosses. DC's special attack, on the other hand, works on everything.

To me and to most, DC have more style than a BKB. It is so cool that in fact, its style is what I care more of it than its power. Because of its style, it doesn't bother me that a BKB in some way is more powerful than a DC. They are practically the same in power in some way, anyway. I'm satisfied with the stats of a DC. Same goes for a BKB, but like I said, a DC have more style (that's my opinion). The looks of a DC is a bonus, not only for its good enough power. A BKB is all about power to me, and its style is cheap (again, that's my opinion). DC have both, good enough power & great style.

You don't need online mode to create a BKB, but you don't need it to create a DC. That's a bonus. Getting PDs aren't pipeable, and so is getting a MKB isn't pipeable. A Lavis Cannon and Syncestas are pipeable, but you need 2 IDs (Redria and Oran) for them to be pipeable. And a chance for each is 1/22 (Lavis Cannon in Redria from a red slime is a chance of 1/22 for one to be dropped, and a Syncesta in Oran from a Hildetorr is a chance of 1/22 for one to be dropped). I had great luck with getting a couple of items with a chance of 1/22, but read my sig. I'm now having terrible luck with getting a Syncesta which is what I'm still doing as you can see, but it doesn't mean that bad luck will go for you too. Some got a Syncesta on their first Hildetorr, and some got 2 Synecetas in about 20 Hildetorrs. It is random. If you have great patience and can stand piping, it won't be much of a problem.

With a DC, you can change it back to the original weapon that is a Lavis Cannon. With each Syncesta used on a Lavis weapon, it goes in this cycle: Lavis Cannon > Lavis Blade > Double Cannon. You can transform it as many times as you like as long as you have enough Syncestas. Once a BKB is created, you can't change it back to the way it was.

DC is a 12-star weapon, and a BKB is an 11-star weapon. But of course, a weapon with the most stars than others doesn't mean that all the weapons with the most stars are actually better weapons. I would still go for a DC if it is an 11-star. Period.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif DC > BKB
http://www.pso-world.com/images/items/doublecannon4.jpg
http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Look at this baby.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jason on 2004-07-22 08:36 ]</font>

[Nai_Calus]

And the previous poster just proved with his sig that you should go for BKB. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Personally, I'm not that fond of either. BKB is ugly and dull, and DC is only slightly better in the looks department. Yes, they're ungodly powerful, but that power will soon go to waste, especially on chars like HUcast. What point is there to a Double Saber-type weapon when the first four hits kill the monster, PSO doesn't pick up the next monster, two hit the air that you have to wait for to finish and you get smacked? Might as well just use a Demolition Comet, and you'll get to the point of OHKOs with that soon enough with a HUcast/HUmar. DC/BKB are only really NOT wasted on bosses.

And it took me far longer to find a MKB than a Lavis Cannon. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Had my Lavis within a couple of days of starting to look. ...'Course, I was offline-only then, had nothing to do that summer and hadn't yet gotten to the point of being driven insane by piping. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif Also, I got lucky and had it drop off the 8th slime.

[Blue-Hawk]

Hell. If I had the ability to find a Lavis and two Synchesta's, I would actually make me a Double Cannon, but as fate has decreed it, I am not to be able to find any of that stuff.

Oh, and Dice, if you are offline, then forget the Black King Bar unless you know someone with online to get it for you.

[aSo_Dragon]

i have a double cannon and i'd say its better. its alot cooler even though it's special isnt good in ultimate its still strong.

[digigram]

I was too much in a hurry to see if someone had mentioned this.. but when you do gallons shop. you don't really
gambling your PDs.

say you have 16 drops.. you goto paganini and he asks you... "you want this" and you say "no, not that" then he continues asking if you want different items.. not really gambling.. though if it were gambling, like a slot machine....jeez.. I'd hate that quest.

[Firocket1690]

On 2004-07-22 10:17, digigram wrote:
I was too much in a hurry to see if someone had mentioned this.. but when you do gallons shop. you don't really
gambling your PDs.

say you have 16 drops.. you goto paganini and he asks you... "you want this" and you say "no, not that" then he continues asking if you want different items.. not really gambling.. though if it were gambling, like a slot machine....jeez.. I'd hate that quest.


Somewhere on the site (http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php), there's a guide (http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=307) that tells you the minimum amount of drops required for said item. Go look for that guide (http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=307), and don't wait for some random poster (http://www.pso-world.com/user.php?op=userinfo&uname=Firocket1690) to post links. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Jason]

On 2004-07-22 08:42, Ian-KunX wrote:
And the previous poster just proved with his sig that you should go for BKB. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



Excuuuuuuse me! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Anuminus]

I must say and agree with IanKunX in saying, well, they're both pretty ugly. (In my opinion) DC is a LITTLE bit better then BKB in the looks department but me? I'd rather have a Demolition Comet (15 % Hit on mine. So seksi...) or a Partisan of Lightning, just to stand out. They are both seksi weapons (Demo Comet and PoL) AND instead of killing an enemy in 4 Hits you kill them in 5-6. More work! Yay! BUT, I am working in my own unique style. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif I reccomend you go for Double Cannon, kindof. Actually, I reccomend you look though the Item Database at all the Double sabers and decide, (By looking at Screenshots, Special attack and well, the overall weapon)which one you like the best. Whichever one or ones you go for I wish you the best of luck finding them. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Piranha_Man]

Haha... Don't even try to look for Dice by color, he changes color every day!

[Jason]

On 2004-07-22 11:23, Anuminus wrote:
Demolition Comet (15 % Hit on mine. So seksi...)



Mine too with the 15% Hit. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Nai_Calus]

Well, see, with double sabers, by the time you get to the 4th hit, you're doing hits 5 and 6 anyway. So it doesn't really matter unless you kill the monster in the first three hits. Remember, the hit pattern is 2-1-3. You're still finishing the animation no matter what, so the overkill is wasted.

[Jason]

On 2004-07-22 08:42, Ian-KunX wrote:
What point is there to a Double Saber-type weapon when the first four hits kill the monster, PSO doesn't pick up the next monster, two hit the air that you have to wait for to finish and you get smacked?



Using the right number of combos with a twin saber against a monster, you should be able to dodge. For example, using 2 combos (with normal attack on first combo and hard attack on the 2nd combo) on a Bartle would let it make it possible for you to dodge its attack. And the power is definitely not wasted if you're attacking the full 3 combos behind the monster. But it is more tricky in a group.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jason on 2004-07-22 12:22 ]</font>

[Nai_Calus]

It's wasted no matter where you're attacking the monster from. If the monster dies on the fourth hit, which is the first hit of the third hit unit of the combo. Whereas even if it take all six hits to kill the monster with say, a Demolition Comet, it's still the same exact result - You've performed a full combo on the monster. That it took four hits instead of six is meaningless - You still executed all the hits.

And if you're only doing Normal-Heavy with a Double Saber-type and then running away to re-attack, you might as well just use the Lavis Cannon and achieve nearly the same result with a fast animation, IMO. >_>;

[Anuminus]

Good point Ian. I completley agree. Demo Comet is so Seksi... I love mine.

[digigram]

erm.
Somewhere on the site, there's a guide that tells you the minimum amount of drops required for said item. Go look for that guide, and don't wait for some random poster to post links.

um... were you assuming that I was asking a question? If not, why'd you quote my post that explained that it's not gambling. perhaps I'm just misinterpreting your statement.. yes, at least people like me know that there is a guide regarding gallons shop..

but this thread nor the question originally asked in this thread had ANYTHING to do with gallons shop.... I was just clearing up a misunderstanding someone had regarding the so-called "gambling" of PD's.


which it is not.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: digigram on 2004-07-22 17:54 ]</font>

[Quo]

On 2004-07-22 12:33, Ian-KunX wrote:
It's wasted no matter where you're attacking the monster from. If the monster dies on the fourth hit, which is the first hit of the third hit unit of the combo. Whereas even if it take all six hits to kill the monster with say, a Demolition Comet, it's still the same exact result - You've performed a full combo on the monster. That it took four hits instead of six is meaningless - You still executed all the hits.

And if you're only doing Normal-Heavy with a Double Saber-type and then running away to re-attack, you might as well just use the Lavis Cannon and achieve nearly the same result with a fast animation, IMO. >_>;



I don't get it Ian. If you're going to have to attack with 6 strikes either way, how is the weaker weapon better? You may as well use the stronger one since its 5th and 6th hits will count against stronger enemies and bosses.

[jspacemunkey]

ian's point is that if you can't kill an enemy with the first three hits of a douber saber full combo and you do kill the enemy on the fourth or fifth hit then the remaining hits will have nothing to hit. since you can't stop in the middle of that final three-hit flurry you're stuck swinging and any nearby enemies can pummel you mercilessly.

however, last time i used my demo comet with my HUcast i distinctly remember that, though i couldn't kill enemies with the first three hits of a double saber combo, i could kill enemies in four hits with the remaining two swings striking anything that got in their path. in other words, if i lined myself up properly i could kill one enemy and have the extra hits land on another enemy. maybe i am mistaken? i'll test it out but if this is true (and i am fairly sure that it is) it really doesn't matter which double saber you use. it just takes a little bit of practice to line up your combos. i'll edit this post once i've tested.

[Dice788]

i have online if anyone wants to play sometime. i'm roaming around everywhere except vega. Im not really going by the 'looks' of the weapon, just as long as it gets the job done (getting tired of using Yamato+43 30/35/0/0/0)

I would go after the Twin Brand from Barba Ray but he hasnt dropped a red box for quite some time, i dont really feel like going through temple over and over. i dont mind the time it takes...its those cheap ob lillys


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dice788 on 2004-07-22 13:49 ]</font>

[Quo]

On 2004-07-22 13:19, jspacemunkey wrote:
ian's point is that if you can't kill an enemy with the first three hits of a douber saber full combo and you do kill the enemy on the fourth or fifth hit then the remaining hits will have nothing to hit. since you can't stop in the middle of that final three-hit flurry you're stuck swinging and any nearby enemies can pummel you mercilessly.


I know, I got that. But you have to swing 6 times either way. And enemies will pummel you whether you're attacking something or not. And if you haven't killed the enemy you were attacking before others break the combo, then you have another enemy bashing you. I just don't see how weaker is better.



however, last time i used my demo comet with my HUcast i distinctly remember that, though i couldn't kill enemies with the first three hits of a double saber combo, i could kill enemies in four hits with the remaining two swings striking anything that got in their path. in other words, if i lined myself up properly i could kill one enemy and have the extra hits land on another enemy. maybe i am mistaken? i'll test it out but if this is true (and i am fairly sure that it is) it really doesn't matter which double saber you use. it just takes a little bit of practice to line up your combos. i'll edit this post once i've tested.



You're not mistaken jspacemunkey. I do that all the time in the caves with my HUnewearl. Hitting multiple enemies with the same combo isn't hard at all.

[jspacemunkey]

thanks, quo. i guess my ultimate goal was to point out that if the remaining hits in a full combo can target and strike other enemies then i personally see no point in trading down on atp. hope i didn't come across as didactic. anyway, good to know that i can continue my lavis runs without stopping to mess around with my HUcast.

and to weigh in on the black king bar vs. double cannon: i think they're both fairly cool weapons style-wise. (of course, i've only seen them in-game once each, and that was a long time ago.) in terms of functionality, they're about equal, though bkb's special might give you a little bit more mileage.

[Jason]

On 2004-07-22 12:33, Ian-KunX wrote:
It's wasted no matter where you're attacking the monster from. If the monster dies on the fourth hit, which is the first hit of the third hit unit of the combo. Whereas even if it take all six hits to kill the monster with say, a Demolition Comet, it's still the same exact result - You've performed a full combo on the monster. That it took four hits instead of six is meaningless - You still executed all the hits.

And if you're only doing Normal-Heavy with a Double Saber-type and then running away to re-attack, you might as well just use the Lavis Cannon and achieve nearly the same result with a fast animation, IMO. >_>;



Yeah, I got your point. I realized that when I was thinking about your post when I was twin sabering recently. I was going to deleted my post now that I did get your point already, but I now can't as there are posts after that one. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[Anuminus]

On 2004-07-22 13:44, Dice788 wrote:
i have online if anyone wants to play sometime. i'm roaming around everywhere except vega. Im not really going by the 'looks' of the weapon, just as long as it gets the job done (getting tired of using Yamato+43 30/35/0/0/0)

I would go after the Twin Brand from Barba Ray but he hasnt dropped a red box for quite some time, i dont really feel like going through temple over and over. i dont mind the time it takes...its those cheap ob lillys


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dice788 on 2004-07-22 13:49 ]</font>

Man, grab a Shield of Delsaber and a Resist/Devil, its all you need to resist megid. Once I get my Kasami Bracer in Ult. Mines I'm switching over to it. EXCEPT, for in Caves, Temple and CCA, there I will ALWAYS use Shield of Delsaber and Resist/Devil. I know it might sound better to use a Shield with better stats but in the areas above it matter more, (In my opinion) to have 60 drk resistance. I love running into a room full of lilies and taking them out without worries. Its also fun to take out the other enemies first and then take out the lilies. SoD rocks. Really, I'm not kidding, Its worthwhile to use this combo rather than have better def and evade... At least in Temple, Caves, and CCA. In all other areas its ALOT better to use the strongest barrier you have rather then this combo but, in Caves, Temple and CCA, this combo rocksorz all of our soxorz. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sitka]

Dice,

Too bad about your luck with the Barba Ray.

I'd say he's dropped a shiny red box with a very nice Twin Brand six of the last nine times I've fought him - really.

I like the look of that Partisan of Lightening - too bad it's not as powerful as the ole DC one.

S-rank twin is relatively easy to get and works fairly well for a higher level character; I'm still trying to get my demolition comet - damn hunters keep stealing mine from the red slimes before I can scoot my big ole Racast ass over to pick it up.

Remember when Stag Cutlery was THE BOMB on DC? Well, I was offline - it was THE BOMB for me.

MKB and Double-Cannon are the weps of choice, along with J-sword, for every 12-year old wanna be, uber-mag hacked kid on xbox - so their appeal is somewhat limiting.

But between the two, MKB and its special can do pretty well in places like seabeds where you've got some high-hit monsters to deal with and in Tower where some of those things take forever to whittle down. A Hucast with freeze traps and an MKB bar can solo the Towers pretty well - right Asia?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sitka on 2004-07-22 17:01 ]</font>

[Sharkyland]

I still like my lavis blades. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Primrose]

On 2004-07-22 17:00, Sitka wrote:
I like the look of that Partisan of Lightening - too bad it's not as powerful as the ole DC one.


I hope with DC you were referring to Double Cannon, because if you were talking about Dreamcast, ill have to say that Partisan of Lightning is a new item, introduced to PSO with the release of Episode 1 & 2.

[Anuminus]

Just for every one on the forums to know. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
I'm 12. Yes, 12. I must apologize for the other 12 yr. olds, damn they think they are so cool. Anyway, I'm 12, I have pretty good knowledge of PSO and to answer the question nobody asked, No I don't use BKB and TJ Swords http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Oh yeah, and I not a l33t haxor wannabe. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif (Damn 12 yr. old n00bs, ruining us respectable 12 yr. olds reputations.) Please don't treat me differently, just treat me like I'm a 15-17 yr. old. Please? Ah yes, and on-topic: Lavis Blades are pretty nice, best ATP of the knives class. (I like them a lot but my personal favorite is S-Reds Blades. Love those, cool looking and S/D.)

[Sitka]

Well Primrose,

I was talking about the POL, from the DC.

I never had one, never saw one, but I understood it was an addition to version II for the DC - and that it was a very good weapon to have.

If I am mistaken, my bad.

My best weapon on the DC was the spread needle, and what a great weapon it was.

I didn't get a demo comet until GC and I thought that thing was frickin awesome.

I'm killing lots of Gibbles on Tower runs looking for a Partisan of Lightning now; haven't gotten one yet - but, they do look cool.

Anuminus, your posts are quite mature for a 12-year old. You do a good job representing the better side of the 12 year olds playing PSO. My oldest son is 12 and he plays PSO as well. So far, I''ve only allowed him to play offline and he is, of course, legit.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sitka on 2004-07-22 17:47 ]</font>

[Anuminus]

Thanks, I got my Demo Comet recently (15 % hit!!! Oh yeah!) Heh, so your sons as old as me? lol

EDIT: GTG, Might see you on PSOW tonight though.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Anuminus on 2004-07-22 17:46 ]</font>