When is a dupe a dupe.

[Gynn_Rei]

Is my item a dupe when I copy my own item for a friend and I keep one of the two?

[Quo]

Yes. Depending upon how you go about duping, once you dupe the original Item is gone and is replaced by two exact replicas.

Duping is bad, you shouldn't do it. If a friend wants a copy of an item you have, tell him to fuck off and find one himself. It is the instant cure. spreading dupes makes you not only a cheater, but also a n00b. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

IMO.

This belongs in cheaters.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Quo on 2004-08-18 11:23 ]</font>

[RicoRoyal]

Dupe, as in duplicate (noun)...


Main Entry: 3du-pli-cate
Pronunciation: -k&t
Function: noun
1 a : either of two things exactly alike and usually produced at the same time or by the same process b : an additional copy of something (as a book or stamp) already in a collection
2 : one that resembles or corresponds to another : COUNTERPART
3 : two identical copies -- used in the phrase in duplicate
synonym see REPRODUCTION

What kind of question is this anyway? You duplicated it, it is therefore a duplicate (aka dupe). Is that such a hard concept to grasp?

[heyf00L]

I'm a little confused about how this would NOT be a dupe. Dupe = duplicate (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=duplicate) (Identically copied from an original).

[Quo]

On 2004-08-18 11:32, heyf00L wrote:
I'm a little confused about how this would NOT be a dupe. Dupe = duplicate (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=duplicate) (Identically copied from an original).



I think he means: if he gave one to a friend, would the friend have the dupe and would he have the original legit copy, or would they both be dupes?

[Superguppie]

Normaly when something is copied, it is possible to make out which is the original and which is the copy. The problem here seems to be that it is impossible to make out which is the original and which is the copy.
So, legits consider both dupe. It doesn't matter which you keep or give away. Both people are stuck with a dupe.

[Gynn_Rei]

There's no original but I put effort in to my search and I want to put effort into it too. Would that make me a cheater since my friend is too lame to search it for himself?

[RicoRoyal]

On 2004-08-18 11:41, Gynn_Rei wrote:
There's no original but I put effort in to my search and I want to put effort into it too. Would that make me a cheater since my friend is too lame to search it for himself?



You're a cheater for exploiting a game's glitch for the benifit of you or someone else. Again, the concept should not be so hard for you to grasp. Whether you care enough to stop duping is entirely up to you.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-18 11:21, Quo wrote:
Yes. Depending upon how you go about duping, once you dupe the original Item is gone and is replaced by two exact replicas.

Duping is bad, you shouldn't do it. If a friend wants a copy of an item you have, tell him to fuck off and find one himself. It is the instant cure. spreading dupes makes you not only a cheater, but also a n00b. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

IMO.

This belongs in cheaters.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Quo on 2004-08-18 11:23 ]</font>

Technically, there is no "original" item. The hex for any item is simply stored in various areas on the character data. If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe because the game erased the data in the original offset location and recreated it in the a new area of the game data.

Every item in the game is simply a hex number that changes location as you use, drop, and bank them. Duping simply allows you to place an item on the ground without erasing the hex values from your inventory. You need to remember that these items have no physical attributes, they are only combinations of hex values (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,a,b,c,d,e and f) and nothing more.

Anyway, I'm neither condoning nor comdemning the act of duping, but rather pointing out, there is no "original" item. As for the ethics of duping, I would say that depends on the person and how they view it. If someone has worked hard to obtain an item, they don't "owe" their friends a copy of it. It all depends on the value that you place on it. I think often times its not really the actual item that they place value on, but instead the hard work and dedication it took to get that item. I can definitely understand someone who has spent many, many hours searching for a particular thing not wanting to cheapen that item by duping copies.

Like I said before the items are just a series of hex values that change locations depending on what you are doing with them, but the time spent to acquire that specific set of hex values is real and does have value and thats what needs to be considered when you are thinking about duping an item for someone.

[heyf00L]

On 2004-08-18 11:41, Gynn_Rei wrote:
There's no original but I put effort in to my search and I want to put effort into it too. Would that make me a cheater since my friend is too lame to search it for himself?Duping is cheating. There's no way around that.
Even backup duping is cheating. The legal sollution is backing up your save. If you have a BBA and a home network there are tools to do this.

[Gynn_Rei]

You're a cheater for exploiting a game's glitch for the benifit of you or someone else. Again, the concept should not be so hard for you to grasp. Whether you care enough to stop duping is entirely up to you.

I think you shouldn't be to hasty on your judgements RicoRoyal. This was only a question that I brought up, and I would like to know what you guys think about it here.

Like VioletSkye said I value the work I put into finding it. I also think both items are dupes but my friends does not agree with me on this matter because you put effort into it for him it then will be a dupe says my friend.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gynn_Rei on 2004-08-18 11:54 ]</font>

[Quo]

On 2004-08-18 11:54, Gynn_Rei wrote:

You're a cheater for exploiting a game's glitch for the benifit of you or someone else. Again, the concept should not be so hard for you to grasp. Whether you care enough to stop duping is entirely up to you.

I think you shouldn't be to hasty on your judgements RicoRoyal. This was only a question that I brought up, and I would like to know what you guys think about it here.

Like VioletSkye said I value the work I put into finding it. I also think both items are dupes but my friends does not agree with me on this matter because you put effort into it for him it then will be a dupe says my friend.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gynn_Rei on 2004-08-18 11:54 ]</font>


Nevertheless, Rico's point rings true. Dupes would not exist without dupers. Therefore: creating dupes is worse than owning dupes. Though, both are cheating. Why lessen the value of your hard earned rares by watching the thing you spent hours finding be instantly duplicated in seconds? It makes all that hard work worthless.

[heyf00L]

On 2004-08-18 11:46, VioletSkye wrote:


On 2004-08-18 11:21, Quo wrote:
Yes. Depending upon how you go about duping, once you dupe the original Item is gone and is replaced by two exact replicas.

Duping is bad, you shouldn't do it. If a friend wants a copy of an item you have, tell him to fuck off and find one himself. It is the instant cure. spreading dupes makes you not only a cheater, but also a n00b. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

IMO.

This belongs in cheaters.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Quo on 2004-08-18 11:23 ]</font>

Technically, there is no "original" item. The hex for any item is simply stored in various areas on the character data. If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe because the game erased the data in the original offset location and recreated it in the a new area of the game data.

Every item in the game is simply a hex number that changes location as you use, drop, and bank them. Duping simply allows you to place an item on the ground without erasing the hex values from your inventory. You need to remember that these items have no physical attributes, they are only combinations of hex values (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,a,b,c,d,e and f) and nothing more.

Anyway, I'm neither condoning nor comdemning the act of duping, but rather pointing out, there is no "original" item. As for the ethics of duping, I would say that depends on the person and how they view it. If someone has worked hard to obtain an item, they don't "owe" their friends a copy of it. It all depends on the value that you place on it. I think often times its not really the actual item that they place value on, but instead the hard work and dedication it took to get that item. I can definitely understand someone who has spent many, many hours searching for a particular thing not wanting to cheapen that item by duping copies.

Like I said before the items are just a series of hex values that change locations depending on what you are doing with them, but the time spent to acquire that specific set of hex values is real and does have value and thats what needs to be considered when you are thinking about duping an item for someone.

Don't try to confuse people. Dropping an item on the ground is not duping and infact US copyright law recognizes this. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/117.html) Specifically a.1:
"it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner"
This was written to acknowledge the fact that computer programs make copies of data in RAM. It specifies that as long as it the copying must be done for the program to work, that it is not copyright infringement. But making a dupe falls outside of this and is technically copyright infringement and is illegal. Dropping an item on the ground is copying it, but is not illegal.

Also note how a.2 makes backup up your save file legal (as long as you only use the backup if your original file is corrupted).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: heyf00L on 2004-08-18 12:12 ]</font>

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-18 12:09, heyf00L wrote:


On 2004-08-18 11:46, VioletSkye wrote:


On 2004-08-18 11:21, Quo wrote:
Yes. Depending upon how you go about duping, once you dupe the original Item is gone and is replaced by two exact replicas.

Duping is bad, you shouldn't do it. If a friend wants a copy of an item you have, tell him to fuck off and find one himself. It is the instant cure. spreading dupes makes you not only a cheater, but also a n00b. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

IMO.

This belongs in cheaters.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Quo on 2004-08-18 11:23 ]</font>

Technically, there is no "original" item. The hex for any item is simply stored in various areas on the character data. If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe because the game erased the data in the original offset location and recreated it in the a new area of the game data.

Every item in the game is simply a hex number that changes location as you use, drop, and bank them. Duping simply allows you to place an item on the ground without erasing the hex values from your inventory. You need to remember that these items have no physical attributes, they are only combinations of hex values (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,a,b,c,d,e and f) and nothing more.

Anyway, I'm neither condoning nor comdemning the act of duping, but rather pointing out, there is no "original" item. As for the ethics of duping, I would say that depends on the person and how they view it. If someone has worked hard to obtain an item, they don't "owe" their friends a copy of it. It all depends on the value that you place on it. I think often times its not really the actual item that they place value on, but instead the hard work and dedication it took to get that item. I can definitely understand someone who has spent many, many hours searching for a particular thing not wanting to cheapen that item by duping copies.

Like I said before the items are just a series of hex values that change locations depending on what you are doing with them, but the time spent to acquire that specific set of hex values is real and does have value and thats what needs to be considered when you are thinking about duping an item for someone.

Don't try to confuse people. Dropping an item on the ground is not duping and infact US copyright law recognizes this. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/117.html) Specifically a.1:
"it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner"
This was written to acknowledge the fact that computer programs make copies of data in RAM. It specifies that as long as it the copying must be done for the program to work, that it is not copyright infringement. But making a dupe falls outside of this and is technically copyright infringement and is illegal. Dropping an item on the ground is copying it, but is not illegal.


I'm not trying to confuse people, nor was I attempting to speak to the legalities of duping (or the game processes at work.) All I pointed out was that duping is nothing more than creating 2 instances of an item in 2 places whereas the game recreates that instance in 1 place. Irregardless of that, I was saying that the item doesn't really seem to be the issue, but rather the time and dedication spent obtaining the item and that is what should be considered by someone who is thinking of whether or not they should dupe an item.


BTW I am glad you posted that link though, thats great information and I'll definitely spend some time looking through it (very interesting) http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-08-18 12:24 ]</font>

[heyf00L]

"If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe" is a confusing statement and is wrong anyway. It's technically not a dupe. A dupe is when the copy of the item goes outside of what is essential for program functionality.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-18 12:23, heyf00L wrote:
"If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe" is a confusing statement and is wrong anyway. It's technically not a dupe. A dupe is when the copy of the item goes outside of what is essential for program functionality.


Well whatever, maybe you can find something else to do besides arguing over stupid shit like this. Again you missed my overall point, but its not worth getting into yet again.

My definition of "dupe" is simply a recreation of something. If the game recreates it, then by MY definition its has duped the item. My definition has nothing to do with the legalities of the process, nor does it have anything to do with making an illicit "copy" of the item. I'm not associating "duping" and making 2 copies of something as the same thing in my example. If its the term duping that you seem to have a problem with, then simply replace the word dupe with recreate in my post.

Also as I already stated the link you posted was cool, but its not anything I give a rats ass about in terms of actually trying to apply it to my life or my gaming. If you want to spout legalities, then great but most people don't really care about any of that.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-08-18 12:37 ]</font>

[LoreSeeker]

In my eyes, duping for backups are ok. One could argue that it destroys all of your hard work my making an item non-legit, but doesn't FSOD eliminate your hard work as well?

The main thing people need to be aware of is responsibility. If you're going to dupe backups, DON'T SPREAD THEM AROUND. That makes you no better than a noob on Vega. If you are going to trade this item, be sure to delete your backup copy promptly so that there is no chance of a dupe floating around, unless the person you trade to decides to make it one. I think there's a huge difference between keeping backups to yourself and duping weapons for other people.

The question of the Terms of Service (ToS) always comes into play. Yes, it technically forbids users from exploiting any glitches found in PSO (assuming that they are online, which is why someone would be bound to the ToS). Offline, you are able to dupe and still be in compliance with the law, if I'm not mistaken.

The major problem with the ToS is that it is not enforced at all. There could be several reasons for this. Perhaps ST is just lazy, and doesn't feel like taking action. Perhaps they are afraid that they would lose too many customers if they enforced their ToS. It's even possible that ST is letting dupes slide because of their own errors in letting FSOD and FSODX exist. We can't be sure of what their exact reasoning is, however, we can be sure that since ST isn't holding up their end of the contract at all, we don't necessarily have to be bound to it.

Imagine that you and a friend make a deal that you are going to give him a ride to the movies and he will pay you $5 for the service before you go. He refuses to pay you $5, so why would you bother taking him to the movies? He didn't hold up his end of the bargain, so you wouldn't be obligated to either.

[heyf00L]

On 2004-08-18 12:26, VioletSkye wrote:


On 2004-08-18 12:23, heyf00L wrote:
"If you drop the item and pick it up, its technically a dupe" is a confusing statement and is wrong anyway. It's technically not a dupe. A dupe is when the copy of the item goes outside of what is essential for program functionality.


Well whatever, maybe you can find something else to do besides arguing over stupid shit like this. Again you missed my overall point, but its not worth getting into yet again.

My definition of "dupe" is simply a recreation of something. If the game recreates it, then by MY definition its has duped the item. My definition has nothing to do with the legalities of the process, nor does it have anything to do with making a "copy" of the item. I'm not associating "duping" and making 2 copies of something as the same thing in my example.
Well then I guess you have a different definition of dupe than the rest of PSO. The rest of PSO, when we use the word "dupe", is referring to when multiple holdable copies of an item have been made. You might want to keep that in mind when throwing around the term "dupe".
I got your overall point and was trying to prevent confussion caused by that part of it.

BTW, I loved the "Well whatever, maybe you can find something else to do besides arguing over stupid shit like this." line. Whenever I hear that (and also the "it's just a game" line) it lets me know that I win. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif Just so you know I'm stuck at work and don't have anything better to do.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-18 12:38, heyf00L wrote:
BTW, I loved the "Well whatever, maybe you can find something else to do besides arguing over stupid shit like this." line. Whenever I hear that (and also the "it's just a game" line) it lets me know that I win. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif Just so you know I'm stuck at work and don't have anything better to do.


Heh, enjoy your "win." I wasn't trying to compete, I was just expressing my views (which is what I thought the forums were for.) Anyway I'm sure your victory prize will be in the mail soon, so that you can show off your amazing "accomplishment" (even though, I "technically" wasn't even trying to win anything, mainly because there isn't anything to win, but hey, you just keep thinking that to yourself and enjoy it LOL)

BTW that was not my overall point, but simply the lead -in to my point, which was (again) its not the item, but the time and hardwork that makes and item special to someone. That is what needs to be considered for people thinking about whether to "make another holdable copy of it" http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-08-18 12:50 ]</font>

[Quo]

Try to stay on topic you two. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[iamthehbomb]

Heyfool, would you care to share or at least point me in the direction of the method in which I can backup my data? Thanks.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: iamthehbomb on 2004-08-18 21:19 ]</font>

[Miroku77]

IMO, duping is only ok when making backups. And as long as you dont give out the backups.

About the friend duping situation, the items would both be dupes, and might mabie be slightly ok if...You and your friend both worked very hard to find the item TOGETHER and if he is still trying to find the item. If you just were working seperate and he gave up, Screw him.

[Jasam]

On 2004-08-18 13:10, iamthehbomb wrote:
Heyfool, would you care to share or at least point me in the direction of the method in which I can backup my data. Thanks.



Me too please if you can...

[Quo]

On 2004-08-18 13:10, iamthehbomb wrote:
Heyfool, would you care to share or at least point me in the direction of the method in which I can backup my data. Thanks.


No. Telling people how to cheat is against forum rules.

Asking how to cheat is against forum rules.

Read 'em (http://www.pso-world.com/faq.php?myfaq=yes&id_cat=9&categories=Forum)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Quo on 2004-08-18 13:25 ]</font>

[Vielka]

On 2004-08-18 11:49, heyf00L wrote:

On 2004-08-18 11:41, Gynn_Rei wrote:
There's no original but I put effort in to my search and I want to put effort into it too. Would that make me a cheater since my friend is too lame to search it for himself?Duping is cheating. There's no way around that.
Even backup duping is cheating. The legal sollution is backing up your save. If you have a BBA and a home network there are tools to do this.


any guides for this, or how can i do this?

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-18 13:41, Vielka wrote:


On 2004-08-18 11:49, heyf00L wrote:

On 2004-08-18 11:41, Gynn_Rei wrote:
There's no original but I put effort in to my search and I want to put effort into it too. Would that make me a cheater since my friend is too lame to search it for himself?Duping is cheating. There's no way around that.
Even backup duping is cheating. The legal sollution is backing up your save. If you have a BBA and a home network there are tools to do this.


any guides for this, or how can i do this?


Its a snap to do, but it also goes against the forum rules to discuss, ergo, noone will be allowed to explain how its done, nor can they link you to the tools needed to create the backup.

[Vielka]

i thought it was the "legal way".. i dont care for cheating or hacking. that is why i asked for the legit way

[Quo]

On 2004-08-18 14:29, Vielka wrote:
i thought it was the "legal way".. i dont care for cheating or hacking. that is why i asked for the legit way



Legal does not necesarily imply legit, nor does it guarantee that we would be allowed to discuss it.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-18 14:29, Vielka wrote:
i thought it was the "legal way".. i dont care for cheating or hacking. that is why i asked for the legit way


Its not illegal to own a copy of your save file, but the means of creating that save file go against PSOW rules (as well as Segas TOS I would imagine) which is why its not allowed to be discussed.

[Genoa]

If your online, Duping is more of a bad thing that it is offline. You shouldn't go around spreading dupes to people, or lying saying that you have items for trade that (you say) are legit (but r really dupes).

I must admit, I know how to dupe (the legit way to...) Honestly, after I broke 100 something, I wanted to try a character with dupes. Don't get me wrong, I had a blast at 1st... but then... It was too ez. Got boring, no fun, etc...

Playing Legitimatelly is much funner. But (and I know this might not be the right advice) I ... *thinks of right word* I legit people should try hacking/duping for a while, find out for themselves it's not fun after a while, then actually WANT to be LEGIT, and never have that thought in there head of, "I wonder what it's like to have everything or be jacked up w/ ubberly rare equipment... etc...".

And if some of you don't know, my GC and PSO was jacked at school, and I badly wish to play pso once again. Legit of course. I have a file on Sef's memory card, but it's a duped file. Mostly because I don't go over there much, and I wanted to play in higher difficulties fast.

And the knowledge I have gained from PSOW has tought me much of this game. And on my own, I figured out Legit it the only way to go. Makes the game last longer, more challenging, and you can have some actual competition with your friends (as in levels and stats and items, etc...)

[Corey]

although Violet has an intresting (and actually pretty accurate, if not 100% accurate) point,
heyf00l is correct


Put simply, violating the ToS is against the law.
You agreed to it, so you violated it.

[LoreSeeker]

On 2004-08-18 16:44, Corey wrote:
although Violet has an intresting (and actually pretty accurate, if not 100% accurate) point,
heyf00l is correct


Put simply, violating the ToS is against the law.
You agreed to it, so you violated it.




I don't know how anyone can disagree (or blatantly ignore) my point about how the ToS is not enforced at all, and as such, Sega has not held up its part of the bargain. According to the ToS, Sega is supposed to be punishing people who exploit glitches, which they clearly are not doing. Because of Sega's failure to recognize its own contract, it can effectively be considered worthless.

It's against the law to pass people on the shoulder of a road, but people do it anyway, and it causes no harm to anyone (in fact, it's actually beneficial, because it speeds traffic along). Backup duping can be thought of in the same way. It causes no harm to anyone as long as responisibility is taken in deleting backups in trade situations. Backup duping makes the game more enjoyable because people don't have to fear random FSODs which will make them lose items.

Not everything truly needs to be backed up. If you have an Orotiagito in your bank which is only there as a trophy, it's safe to say that it's not going to be lost to FSOD. On the other hand, I would never play online if I couldn't back up my BKB. It's not necessarily for a collection; it's for serious ass kicking. I got myself a legit BKB so I would be able to own things more thoroughly, not just for a checklist saying what items I have gotten. Same with my nifty Red Sword. Those aren't so easily stumbled upon, and I can't say that I'm up for a ton of caves runs to look for one to replace mine if lost to FSOD.

People need to realize that there is no "one-size-fits-all" rule to duping being good or bad. Duping certainly has good uses thanks to ST's failure regarding FSOD. I consider people that use backup dupes to be legit. On the other hand, people who find an item and spread dupes of it all around Vega, are devaluing items for legits, which is unacceptable.

[Corey]

Even so, it is still against the law.
It's your decision wether you care or not.

[LoreSeeker]

I don't care about the ToS, and nobody should anymore. It's a worthless document which was stripped of any value because of ST's failure to keep promises implied by the ToS. Because ST (the party which wrote the ToS) doesn't care about its own laws, nobody else is forced to abide by their shit. If you aren't forced to do something, it is not a law. We are forced to not kill people because if we get caught, we will get put away in jail for a long time. If we dupe... well, nothing happens. If the United States government decided to stop doing anything about murders, it wouldn't be considered a law that you can't kill people. See my point, Corey?

[PatserGOUKI]

On 2004-08-18 11:17, Gynn_Rei wrote:
Is my item a dupe when I copy my own item for a friend and I keep one of the two?


COPY = DUPLICATE (=DUPE)

Doesnt that tell you everything? Why always these stupid questions, these are here 4-ever. And WHO cares?

Let people who wanna play "legit" play legit, don't bother them!
Let people who wanna play "with duped stuff" play with it, and don't bother them either!

Stupid poll, even more stupid , people who respond with a real intense answer, im sorry people, im getting sick of these stupid dupe, legit etc questions...
Just play the game!

PatserGOUKI

[Kadavreski]

paster is right.

i give away the legit versions of items to noobs, and what? i don't give a crap, and nor do they.

[Joshie]

well half of the poeple here are right. if you dupe it its a dupe. listen to you say this IF YOU DUPE THIS thats all you haft to say DUPE sooo srry the legitness of the item is gone.

[heyf00L]

Back at work. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Violet person, the http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif indicates a joke. We're still friends, right?

OK, onward.
Since when is the ToS the law? It's not. It comes nowhere close to being a legally binding contract. The ToS just justifies Sega's denial of service (bannings) when you break their rules.

Anyway, I'd love to tell you how to backup saves, but the process is a close cousin to GameCube piracy and even the Item Mod method. If done correctly, tho, you don't break any laws. This isn't like Xbox where you use hacked bioses and all the programs are made with illegal coppies of the XDK.

I have written a guide for my friends. If you see me outside of PSOWorld I'll give you a link. You might can find my email on a certain FAQ hosted by IGN.

[JohanCC]

IMO duping for a friend is wrong, but that makes your friend a cheater, not you.

And about the ToS, a contract, whether enforced or not, is legally binding. It's up to ST whether they want to press charges, which, obviously, they won't.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-08-19 10:53, heyf00L wrote:
Back at work. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Violet person, the http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif indicates a joke. We're still friends, right?

Of course http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif That was never even in question http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

And to stay on topic I'll add that in addition to the method of backing up your memory card, if someone doesn't mind starting a new char, they can use a USB memory card (Gameshark now makes one, so you don't even need to import one like most of us did lol) and easily save your files to pc.

[LoreSeeker]

We need to keep in mind that legitimate basically means "in compliance with the law." With that said, duping for a friend offline is perfectly legal, because you never signed the ToS for access to the PSO servers. Offline players can cheat in any fashion they wish and still be "in compliance with the law," because offline, there really is none.

The ToS should only come into play when online, but ST has not (to anyone's knowledge) followed through to any extent with the rules they have set up. It can be implied that because of the ToS, cheaters would be banned from the servers, creating a more legitimate environment. ST has not held up this promise, leaving pretty much free reign for anything.

I can see why people would still want to label each other as legit or not, just because they want to play the game in a certain fashion. What I can't see is why people need to be so unreasonable about all of the specifics involved.

[Superguppie]

Oooohhh, it's been a while since we had the legit/ToS/Law thing. grin
Cheating is NOT against ANY law, and you can't go to court over it. (Well, in some cases that might be possible, but you'll need another reason than just "He broke the ToS")
Also, I don't think there is a law that says you will have to keep your word if you say you agree with the ToS.

Within the online part of PSO, the ToS IS law. It not only states what you can and can't do, it also states possible sanctions on violations. The fact that it ST doesn't seem to do much on the sanctions bit doesn't make the ToS less the law.

Just like the rules in the ToS are 'legal within PSO', using the sanctions is 'legal within PSO'. In other words, if ST started enforcing the rules by using the sanctions given in the ToS, you could take that to court just as much as you can take cheating to court.

Also, it can be argued that the rules in the ToS have a reason for being there. Whether the ToS is enforced or not, the reasons remain, and should be enough reason to stick to the rules. Ofcourse not everyone is like me, saying "The rules are there, stick to them." which is why the sanctions are there. If only ST would start using them...

I do wonder if it would be possible for users to go to court and force ST to enforce the ToS. After all, the ToS is legaly binding, and there is a business transaction. (I pay for it) If ST can be shown to be insufficiently holding up their end of the transaction, that might be enough...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Superguppie on 2004-08-20 01:56 ]</font>

[LoreSeeker]

On 2004-08-20 01:51, Superguppie wrote:
Oooohhh, it's been a while since we had the legit/ToS/Law thing. grin
Cheating is NOT against ANY law, and you can't go to court over it. (Well, in some cases that might be possible, but you'll need another reason than just "He broke the ToS")
Also, I don't think there is a law that says you will have to keep your word if you say you agree with the ToS.

Within the online part of PSO, the ToS IS law. It not only states what you can and can't do, it also states possible sanctions on violations. The fact that it ST doesn't seem to do much on the sanctions bit doesn't make the ToS less the law.

Just like the rules in the ToS are 'legal within PSO', using the sanctions is 'legal within PSO'. In other words, if ST started enforcing the rules by using the sanctions given in the ToS, you could take that to court just as much as you can take cheating to court.

Also, it can be argued that the rules in the ToS have a reason for being there. Whether the ToS is enforced or not, the reasons remain, and should be enough reason to stick to the rules. Ofcourse not everyone is like me, saying "The rules are there, stick to them." which is why the sanctions are there. If only ST would start using them...

I do wonder if it would be possible for users to go to court and force ST to enforce the ToS. After all, the ToS is legaly binding, and there is a business transaction. (I pay for it) If ST can be shown to be insufficiently holding up their end of the transaction, that might be enough...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Superguppie on 2004-08-20 01:56 ]</font>


I can see that you're at least a reasonable, intelligent person to debate with. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

I can really see your point about how the ToS should be followed, just as a basic set of guidelines. On my legit characters, I would follow the ToS exactly as it's written, except for one problem: FSOD likes to rob me of items when they aren't backed up. Because of that, I can and will back up any weapon which is difficult to find/obtain. I can't say that I want to hunt another MKB, 105 grinders, or 50 PDs just to get back to where I was before. And that's just a single item! When FSOD hits, it tends to hit when you have your least valuable weapon equipped (Murphy's Law!). The easiest way to prevent yourself from losing items from FSOD is to simply dupe yourself a backup copy of your valuables. Nothing special, just throw it in the bank, and get it if you need it. The only instance where it wouldn't work is if you just so happen to corrupt, which would be most unfortunate. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

The common example people use to bash backup duping is as follows: two people FSOD, person A doesn't back up, and person B does. Person A is now totally short of an item, while person B just grabs his backup, giving him an advantage.

This example doesn't really do much for me. It is possible that ST is letting dupes slide because of FSOD, and backup dupes can serve a purpose in preserving the playability of PSO. It's a lazy solution, allowing ST to appease the masses and not have to do any work patching the server to prevent FSOD. Sounds believable enough to me, just because it fits perfectly in character with ST.


Bottom line: I guess you can think what you want regarding backup dupes. If you don't like em, don't use them. If someone else doesn't want to lose their hard-earned items, let them go ahead and back them up. Does it really make such a huge difference in how much you enjoy the game? If it really makes you mad that people break the ToS and ST does nothing about it, don't give them $8.95 a month.

[ForceOfBrokenGlass]

On 2004-08-20 01:51, Superguppie wrote:
Oooohhh, it's been a while since we had the legit/ToS/Law thing. grin
Cheating is NOT against ANY law, and you can't go to court over it. (Well, in some cases that might be possible, but you'll need another reason than just "He broke the ToS")
Also, I don't think there is a law that says you will have to keep your word if you say you agree with the ToS.

Within the online part of PSO, the ToS IS law. It not only states what you can and can't do, it also states possible sanctions on violations. The fact that it ST doesn't seem to do much on the sanctions bit doesn't make the ToS less the law.

Just like the rules in the ToS are 'legal within PSO', using the sanctions is 'legal within PSO'. In other words, if ST started enforcing the rules by using the sanctions given in the ToS, you could take that to court just as much as you can take cheating to court.

Also, it can be argued that the rules in the ToS have a reason for being there. Whether the ToS is enforced or not, the reasons remain, and should be enough reason to stick to the rules. Ofcourse not everyone is like me, saying "The rules are there, stick to them." which is why the sanctions are there. If only ST would start using them...

I do wonder if it would be possible for users to go to court and force ST to enforce the ToS. After all, the ToS is legaly binding, and there is a business transaction. (I pay for it) If ST can be shown to be insufficiently holding up their end of the transaction, that might be enough...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Superguppie on 2004-08-20 01:56 ]</font>

I'm going to be rather negative but. In the ToS didn't say that Sonic Team and Sega will not be held responsible for the actions of the players. They reserved the right to take action against violators but they never made any promises. Plus if they had to they could terminate this uninforced contract and transaction by shutting down the servers and not taking money for them.

[KaneKahn]

On 2004-08-18 11:17, Gynn_Rei wrote:
Is my item a dupe when I copy my own item for a friend and I keep one of the two?


When you COPY anything thats a DUPE http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Superguppie]

On 2004-08-20 21:16, LoreSeeker wrote:
I can see that you're at least a reasonable, intelligent person to debate with. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Heyyyy, that sounds like a compliment. Thank you.



I can really see your point about how the ToS should be followed, just as a basic set of guidelines. On my legit characters, I would follow the ToS exactly as it's written, except for one problem: FSOD likes to rob me of items when they aren't backed up. Because of that, I can and will back up any weapon which is difficult to find/obtain. I can't say that I want to hunt another MKB, 105 grinders, or 50 PDs just to get back to where I was before. And that's just a single item! When FSOD hits, it tends to hit when you have your least valuable weapon equipped (Murphy's Law!). The easiest way to prevent yourself from losing items from FSOD is to simply dupe yourself a backup copy of your valuables. Nothing special, just throw it in the bank, and get it if you need it. The only instance where it wouldn't work is if you just so happen to corrupt, which would be most unfortunate. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

It is possible that ST is letting dupes slide because of FSOD, and backup dupes can serve a purpose in preserving the playability of PSO. It's a lazy solution, allowing ST to appease the masses and not have to do any work patching the server to prevent FSOD. Sounds believable enough to me, just because it fits perfectly in character with ST.

FSOD is indeed a pain. I never considered ST not pursuing it too much to alleviate the pain a bit. However, the last 3 FSODs I had were spread across a whole year. And in those 3 I didn't lose a single thing of value. I do see that only carrying one weapon at a time takes away a bit of the gameplay fun. (Offline Frozen Shooter, Zalure-S-Rank Rifle, Yasminkov 9000M is a lethal combo on my RAmar that I would rather not try online because of FSOD) But I can live with it. Thus eliminating my need for backup duping.
I have sympathy for backup duping, but I also see how the temptation of doing it for other purposes is too much for many. I would rather see that temptation taken away. If I know someone dupes for personal backup only (and there are few I know well enough to trust their word for that) I won't call him/her a cheater for it. But I will keep saying that, strictly speaking, duping is cheating.
That said, I do admit fear of corruption, so I do make file-backups of all my saves, without considering myself a cheater for that. These could also be used for duping, but the process is a little more cumbersome than duping, so the temptation will be less.
As for preventing FSOD, that may be a really hard task. I hear they DID patch the forced one server-side. And my guess is they ARE looking for possibilities to prevent other causes of FSOD. However, I doubt all FSODs CAN be fixed server-side. FSOD can even strike offline. I think it is caused by bugs still in the program. Hard to get the bugs off the disk. Also, as soon as the data leaves the server it is out of STs hands...



The common example people use to bash backup duping is as follows: two people FSOD, person A doesn't back up, and person B does. Person A is now totally short of an item, while person B just grabs his backup, giving him an advantage.


That would only go if ST had put in FSOD to deliberately make people lose stuff. And I don't think they are that devious.
I don't say B has an advantage. I say he/she doesn't have a disadvantage. Evading a disadvantage can be used as an excuse. But I do think one should consider the negative potential of the means towards the end.



Bottom line: I guess you can think what you want regarding backup dupes. If you don't like em, don't use them. If someone else doesn't want to lose their hard-earned items, let them go ahead and back them up. Does it really make such a huge difference in how much you enjoy the game? If it really makes you mad that people break the ToS and ST does nothing about it, don't give them $8.95 a month.

And miss all the great moments I get for that money? I don't think so...

[LoreSeeker]

FSOD does exist offline, but it is much less of a problem. Not only are offline FSODs rare, but they also don't cause a person to lose items. The only thing which may be lost is a bit of experience gained since the last save, though that can easily be replaced.

I guess what I am trying to accomplish by arguing here is to make people stop whining about everything that is wrong with PSO. ADE has been a great influence causing me to do this, because he would argue for great lengths of time about how every cheater is an utterly bad person in real life. I want to make a case for using backup dupes. It's like having health insurance; it's not entirely necessary to play the game, and chances are that you will be perfectly fine. However, if a problem occurs and you don't have insurance, you're going to be hurting.

If I knew how to back up my save, I would definitely do that, and I would probably stop using backup dupes completely. However, I don't know how to get my save file onto my computer, so duping backups will have to suffice until I'm more educated on the subject of moving my save file. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[zathura2]

ADE has been a great influence causing me to do this, because he would argue for great lengths of time about how every cheater is an utterly bad person in real life.


Just thought I'd throw this out. ADE, (MikeyADE) has been spotted on the Sega of America forums doing the exact same thing, lol. There's currently an ongoing legits vs. non-legits debate that stands at 5 pages and climbing. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Superguppie]

Yo! Please don't bump a topic this old. Especialy not by refering to someone that was banned here for misbehaviour.
I've played with ADE a few times and he's ok. Even the things he says in the game aren't too bad. But still, he was banned here for a reason...

[Jason]

At least ST did a little something about duping. Think about Lucky coins. When obtained, it won't be in your inventory. Thus, it prevents you from duping it.

[Superguppie]

I'm not sure they did it to prevent duping. Gallon points have been there from the start, and they don't show up in my inventory either. But I guess it's a good thing they can't be duped. It requires people to actualy play the quest before they can try for their Black Gear or nice hit 9*.