Jellen and Zalure... highly overrated, or something majorly

[MT7218]

More and more recently, I'm seeing less and less people use Jellen and Zalure in fights, and doing alright. In fact, someone said "JZ is too uber" to me in a game a few nights ago. FYI, though, that I've been playing with rather high level chars, too. So, what do you think? Is JZ overrated after a certian point, or still needed? Personally, I like to use J/Z, regardless of level.

[Tact]

I might have to take a neutral standpoint on this matter. In Normal and everything, Jellen and Zalure are hardly needed. In Vhard and Ultimate, however, even if Jellen and Zalure are not needed, they benefit the party anyway by enabling them to defeat the enemies faster. Yet another thing I'd like to point out is the TP requirement compared to Shifta and Deband. For Jellen and Zalure, you must cast it on almost every enemy you see to have a continual benefit. This is a great toll on your TP. Shifta and Deband, however, needs only to be cast once in a while due to the fact that the caster's fellow Hunters can stay alive, and the Shifta and Deband stays active. The Shifta and Deband method uses far less TP then the Jellen and Zalure method, overall.

[AxemPunanny]

J/Z is not always needed... but IMO and from my experiences, not overly used. J/Z can help as much as S/D in a normal game. For FOs they're especially useful in "tagging." You can get EXP from just casting either one, w/o hitting enemies. It may sound a bit cheap, but it can be helpful in most situations. Whether you're playing with high lvl chars on ULT., it's still at least a lil help... or... you're a high lvl FO helping someone out on normal, you can just be casting them to help the low-lvl out, avoiding atk magic from killing enemies yourself.

In cmode, they're not used too much... generally it's not needed, but great in certain situations (particularly during boss battles).

[MT7218]

Oops... forgot to mention one thing. I was mainly refering to Ult games in my first post... and I always like to use all 4 techs, Shifta, Deband, Jellen, and Zalure... what I was refering to is that is there a point when J/Z becomes majorly overrated even in Ult games? Where J/Z is more of a nice to use, but not really needed anymore kind of thing, even in, say, Ult Ruins/Seabed?

[Saiffy]

I don't know about you, but I'd prefer never taking damage and doing more damage over getting hit lots and not doing as much damage.


I really don't see the point of this topic.

[Rianna_Type1]

With my FOmar, I *always* use J/Z as well as S/D when supporting online parties, with the exception of tight spot situations.

One of them being Gal Gryphon fight, I skip Jellen. Another being the room in TTF with all the Sinows, skip Jellen there too.

Reason for skipping Jellen in those rooms is because if you're not knocked down, a barrage of quick hits = instant death for you.

But I think Jellen and Zalure are absolutely neccessary, as much as Shifta and Deband. I take waaaaaaaaaaaaay less damage with all 4 in effect. In Ultimate Forest it enables my FOmar to guard every attack and Ultimate Caves is pretty laughable too.

It makes getting hit in the Ruins bearable as well.

Zalure is always cast because it helps everyone around me do nearly twice as much damage if not more.

Since Jellen and Zalure reduce ATP and DFP of monsters by a percentage, their effects are more noticable in VH and especially Ultimate..

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, without Jellen a one-hit crit from Sinow Zoa in Ult Seabed = death to my FOmar p_q

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rianna_Type1 on 2005-05-01 13:41 ]</font>

[Neith]

I find J/Z more useful than S/D, it's just a pain having to cast it more. A high level Jellen disk will help in later areas greatly. Addmittedly, not that useful in Normal/Hard, but in later stages, especially Ultimate, Jellen/Zalure is more help where you need it. I dont think you can overuse J/Z, as far as I see things, J/Z is just a lot of help, which I don't have any problems with. Fighting Ill Gills/Epsilon without Zalure is a big pain. 200 damage heavy with Asuka on an Ill Gill sucks. 350-400 is a bit nicer. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Saiffy]

Not casting jellen on Sinows and Gal is just common sense.

[MT7218]

On 2005-05-01 13:33, Saiffwin wrote:
I don't know about you, but I'd prefer never taking damage and doing more damage over getting hit lots and not doing as much damage.


I really don't see the point of this topic.



The reason why I made this topic is because I keep seeing a lot of people just not bother with J/Z anymore at high levels in games, thinking it's more of a commodity than a neccesity (For classes that can use J/Z, that is...). I just wondered what the general opnion is about this topic. To see other people's viewpoints, weather they agree or disagree.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MT7218 on 2005-05-01 13:47 ]</font>

[Kazzi]

They ARE overrated. I dont find them much use when your with a party online but offline when soloing that little bit more damage and defence really does helps.

[Saiffy]

Could someone really explain why they think it's overused? Or "cheap"?


I could just as easilly say attacking with weapons is overused, go use unarmed combat.

[Neith]

On 2005-05-01 13:54, Saiffwin wrote:
Could someone really explain why they think it's overused? Or "cheap"?


I could just as easilly say attacking with weapons is overused, go use unarmed combat.



Quoted for truth. I'll stick with weapons, I'll stick to using J/Z. Less chance of me getting owned is worth it.

[TheOneHero]

[quote]Saiffy - says:
This topic hurts my virginity
Saiffy - says:
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=98199&forum=1&11</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess that means J/Z isn't overated. You all fail.

[Rianna_Type1]

My friend was just telling me on AIM that playing PSO with your eyes open is overrated.

.. also, anyone who plays the game with a standard controller is a pussy and should hunt with a dance pad.

[Butoden]

On 2005-05-01 13:28, AxemPunanny wrote:
J/Z is not always needed... but IMO and from my experiences, not overly used. J/Z can help as much as S/D in a normal game. For FOs they're especially useful in "tagging." You can get EXP from just casting either one, w/o hitting enemies. It may sound a bit cheap, but it can be helpful in most situations.
Yep true, Jellen/Zalure have pretty ok reach and it's a fast cast, and if there's 2 or even 3 Hucasts with swords you too want Exp http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif Damaging those enemies is no use because the HUcasts do damage anyways, why waist TP on attackspells when jellen/zalure is enuff http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Mixfortune]

S/D is a lasting affect on the players and for the most part there's little reason not to use it.

J/Z is an affect on enemies that tends not to stick around as long per cast, as enemies, well... die.

As such, I hardly use or expect anyone to both Jellen and Zalure the same group of enemies... and since Jellen is overall more useful than Zalure, I cast that. If Zalure is needed for certain enemies (such as Morfos, or to cancel Sinow Red Deband) then so be it, and use Zalure in those cases.

If you do possess an S-Rank Zalure weapon, especially something like Needle, then it's fairly easier to use, and there'd be little trouble using it to speed things up, especially since it can be part of a damage combo.

[GreenArcher]

I think Jellen and Zalure is not overrated and can be very helpful. Forces don't get smaked as badly with all that good stuff on when meleeing.

[Rubesahl]

As a force since the DC days, I've always been all out in S/D/J/Z and attacking with techs. I didn't care about my TP, even if I did trips to P2 more often than anybody, I always did my best and it really does make a difference in speed ^__^

[Daikarin]

On 2005-05-01 13:18, MT7218 wrote:
More and more recently, I'm seeing less and less people


That outta explain it.

On Ultimate, J&Z make sure you don't die.

[Nai_Calus]

I always J/Z with my FO, sometimes with my HU, sometimes with my RAmarl, sometimes I try it with a droid...

And I keep trying to S/D with my HUmar. XP

It's good for the team, it looks pretty, and it gets my girly FOmar ass experience.

[Mystil]

Well..

Shifta/Jellen > Deband/Zalure.




On 2005-05-01 13:45, Saiffwin wrote:
Not casting jellen on Sinows and Gal is just common sense.



But you can get away with having it on Sinows cause they know when to let up thier attack. Unlike Gal who can just kill you with no effort if you have jellen on him.

[Rianna_Type1]

On 2005-05-01 17:00, Silhouette wrote:
But you can get away with having it on Sinows cause they know when to let up thier attack.



I usually ALWAYS cast it on Sinows, I just don't in the one small square room in TTF where 3 sets of 4 Sinow Blues jump down.

.. Doing that is just asking to die if you don't get knocked down from one hit.

[Hrith]

Hmm, Saiff, I agree with you, except on 2 points.

1) If you don't Jellen Sinows, Terra/Kefka/Thousand/Shione die, they have high enough HP/DFP not to fall over from hits of an unjellened Sinow.
The "don't Jellen Sinows" only applies to mid-level chars, once you're too high, you need Jellen again.

2) I sometimes find Zalure in Forest annoying, Forest is just too easy, no Zalure makes is more fun http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Rianna_Type1]

On 2005-05-01 18:59, Kef wrote:
The "don't Jellen Sinows" only applies to mid-level chars, once you're too high, you need Jellen again.


What's considered too high? I think it depends on the class. Not Jellening the Sinows applies to my LV 157 FOmar at least in that room..

[Mixfortune]

On 2005-05-01 19:09, Rianna_Type1 wrote:


On 2005-05-01 18:59, Kef wrote:
The "don't Jellen Sinows" only applies to mid-level chars, once you're too high, you need Jellen again.


What's considered too high? I think it depends on the class. Not Jellening the Sinows applies to my LV 157 FOmar at least in that room..



I think in this case, "too high" means when you're high enough that you still stand while taking a full Sinow hit. Since you'd be taking the maximum potential of hits anyways, might as well Jellen them and take the maximum potential of hits with weaker damage output.

For this case, it depends more on the group, rather than the individual. Try to get an understanding for everyone's standing as far as Sinows go, before making assumptions, in order to maximize your team's potential. This is easier if you're working with other characters that you're familiar with.

[Saiffy]

Yeah, my bad on that. After a SB run I saw that Sinows didn't knock me down anyways.


But, when you have low-mid lvls and high lvls, it gets tough whether you Jellen them or not.


And, well. I personally don't zalure in forest just because my FOmar and HUmar can kill everything in one combo, save maybe Hildelts?

And of course, my RAcast cannot zalure except by means of my shot, which special is soon to change.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saiffwin on 2005-05-01 21:38 ]</font>

[Para]

I would not say Jellan and Zalure are overrated but more like overpowered http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Jellan and Zalure not only decrease atp and dfp but from experience, it may seem that it lowers ATA and EVP as well.

FOs with high level Jellen and Zalure can easily nulify an enemy's offense and defense (aside the monsters with special attacks and techs) making the overall battle a joke.

[A-P]

I just do things the old fashioned meat shield way. I hack at 'em without the use of weakening spells. Yes it makes the game a bit harder, but just remember, " If it bleeds, we can kill it ".

But eh, I can see why others would want it. Ultimate Ruins is brutal and I understand why people would Zalure / Jellen their foes. As a hunter, I can take the hits and get up for seconds, but a far more frail class such as a Force would like to bolster its defenses and lower it's enemies defense/attack.

Overall, I just don't like to use TP on it, but I still think it is far better to have it than not to. Even if I do not use it.

( And if you know where the previously stated quote is from, give you're self a cookie. You earned it. )

[Evil_Althena8]

saying J/Z is overrated is kinda...dumb. I don't have much experience with using Zalure since I usually solo with my FO's...but Jellen is a godsend. I ALWAYS use Jellen constantly on ultimate...if I don't, I die in one hit from Sinow Zoas and bosses rape me (my lvl 110 FOney). Shifta is awesome too....as Silhouette said, Jellen/Shifta>Zalure/deband. Altering attack power has greater effect on damage than altering defense. Nevertheless I still use Deband occasionally, but I rarely use Zalure with my Huney.

[Hrith]

With Deband and Jellen Lv 30, the 4 characters I mentioned earlier do not take any damage from Sinow Blue, 3-5 damage from Sinow Red >_>
So I want Jellen.

[Mixfortune]

On 2005-05-02 03:14, Kef wrote:
With Deband and Jellen Lv 30, the 4 characters I mentioned earlier do not take any damage from Sinow Blue, 3-5 damage from Sinow Red >_>
So I want Jellen.



What's funny is how offline, even Jellen 15 for the most part is all my Humar ever really needs http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif
Near complete physical damage nullification in EP1 and about half of EP2 http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Sure Humar might not be so snazzy online, but since my Humar is offline only anyways... fun times. Jellen 15 is enough for me there XD

[Sharkyland]

On 2005-05-01 14:12, Rianna_Type1 wrote:
My friend was just telling me on AIM that playing PSO with your eyes open is overrated.

.. also, anyone who plays the game with a standard controller is a pussy and should hunt with a dance pad.


You know my friend and I have done using a dancepad, but we were so tired to get to F2 >.< (We did this in ult and using like lvl 110+ characters. Difficult to remember which button does what, and it's kinda hard when you really don't know how to get to your 2nd customization, hitting the 'R' button. PS2 to GC convertor used.)

---

Anyway, I seem to automatically cast SDJZ, because my HUnes need it. ;_;

[Kaply]

You get to a point of diminishing returns on jellen/deband.

With my FOnewm I used a lot of deband/jellen, around level 125 when I went back to hunt Ultimate Forest, I noticed that I really didn't need it anymore. Most of the mobs no longer knock me down and thus they don't do enough damage to put me into danger. I started to skip using jellen unless I know the mobs can knock me down, however that actually only means like 1/8 of my total hp knocked down so it doesn't seem to matter that much. Deband has less of an effect on my FOnewm than Jellen does. Or so it felt. I never really tested it out. Jellen costs 40 TP. A resta that will heal 7/8 of my HP bar costs 19 TP.

[RadiantLegend]

I like hitting high numbers therefore i demand zalure.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ragolismine on 2005-05-02 08:57 ]</font>

[Jarek]

On 2005-05-01 18:59, Kef wrote:

The "don't Jellen Sinows" only applies to mid-level chars, once you're too high, you need Jellen again.




This is the problem I was having last night with my ra. She doesn't get knocked over, but I guess others in the team would. So I had to keep getting slammed by the sinows without jellen, which quickly deplets the hp bar.

I always use jellen/zalure, except maybe forest, or on enemies that jellen has no effect on (nano dragons, baranz).

[Aero_Hawk]

It isnt needed much but can be a life saver at times.