VulpesMundi
May 25, 2005, 10:28 AM
Wow, my first new topic in nearly a year. I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or not. However, before you all get excited about me being here (Yeah, right, who the Hell am I again? Oh yeah, I'm the Yes-Man! >.>) I have no plans to jump on the BB bandwagon. I just felt the need to tie up a loose end that should have been tied aeons ago: my old variable ATP guide. I've updated it *gasp* and submitted it via Email (again) to hopefully, finally be a legitimate guide in the guides section. So if someone who has that power will see that through, that'd be like totally kewl 'n' stuff. And until then, I'll post a copy here for your viewing dis-/pleasure. Have fun you PSO monkeys. :3
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Variable ATP on Weapons Q & A
by Vulpes Mundi
What is variable ATP?
Looking at a weapon in the item database that has a variable ATP, it will be listed as ATP: X-Y, X being the minimum possibility and Y being the maximum possibility. The calculated ATP will be somewhere between those two values. The game will calculate a variable ATP for each successful attack and add it to the character's base ATP. Just remember that the Y value will be what the game displays when it shows the combined statistic for a character's ATP.
Do grinders effect variable ATP?
No. When you grind a weapon it adds equally to both ends of the variable ATP, keeping the variance the same. Lets assume a weapon has a default variable ATP of 90-100. If you grind that weapon to +5 (adding 10 ATP) your new variable ATP will be 100-110.
Does Shifta effect variable ATP?
Yes. When casting a level 30 Shifta, a weapon with a variable ATP will gain roughly 48% (actual amount is 47.7%, but for ease of use we'll stick to 48%) of the variable difference on the maximum (Y) value. Lets assume a weapon has a default variable ATP of 90-100, which gives us a 10 ATP variance. If level 30 Shifta is cast on that character this weapon will gain an ATP bonus equal to roughly 48% of 10, or roughly a 5 ATP bonus. However, this bonus is only added to the maximum (Y) value of variable ATP. And thus our 90-100 variable ATP weapon will now do 90-105 variable ATP. I also assume this works in reverse with Jellen by reducing the maximum (Y) value, but not changing the minimum (X) value. Also remember that different levels of Shifta and Jellen will have a different resulting bonus, and that they also affect the character's ATP.
How about grinders and Shifta combined?
Grinders raise the variable ATP equally so that the variance between the minimum (X) and maximum (Y) values never changes. Therefore, the Shifta bonus will remain the same regardless of grinders.
Why does only the maximum (Y) value get a bonus?
This may be done for a few reasons. First, a weapon with a variable ATP is somewhat less reliable than a weapon with a fixed ATP. So for that reason the weapon gains on its maximum to recover a little from being less reliable by being given the chance to do more damage. However, because it gets stronger from this Shifta bonus it also becomes even less reliable by getting an even wilder variable ATP. It's a double-edged sword, if you'll pardon the euphemism, but in the long run will still improve the weapon's effectiveness overall.
In a nutshell, how would we calculate maximum ATP?
Maximum ATP can be calculated like this...
Character ATP + (character ATP x Shifta bonus %) + Base Weapon Y ATP + (variance x Shifta bonus %) + Grinder bonus + Armor/Shield bonus = Maximum ATP display
For a more specific example lets use a character with 200 ATP, a weapon with 90-100 ATP grinded to +5, and a level 30 Shifta (48% bonus, or 0.48).
200 + (200 x 0.48 = 96) + 100 + (10 x 0.48 = 4.8) + 10 + 0 = 410.8, rounded to 411. The ATP displayed would be roughly 411.
Note: Slot units add directly to the character's ATP. So make sure they're all factored together for the character ATP.
If you want true maximum ATP including an area percentage...
(Base Weapon Y ATP + (variance x Shifta bonus %) + Grinder bonus) x Area % = Area % bonus + Maximum ATP display (from the previous calculation) = True maximum ATP
For example: if we were fighting in the Cave with the previous weapon and it has 30% A.Beast.
(100 + (10 x 0.48 = 4.8) + 10 = 114.8) x .30 = 34.44 + 410.8 = 445.24, rounded to 445. The true maximum ATP would be roughly 445.
Note: Remember that from Episode 1 & 2 and beyond, weapon area % only effects the weapon ATP and no longer effects a character's ATP.
Is there a way to figure out a decent average effectiveness of a weapon with variable ATP?
Yes. You can calculate a median (middle) ATP that would be an average scenario of what the variable ATP will calculate. To do this, find the difference in the Variable ATP. Using our example of 90-100, the difference is 10 ATP. Now divide that difference by 2. For our example 10 divided by 2 equals 5. Now take that value and subtract it from the maximum value to find the median. For our example 100 minus 5 equals 95. So granted an average scenario our variable ATP weapon will average 95 ATP. Remember to calculate Shifta bonuses separately.
How about a useful comparison example?
Sure. Lets use the Meteor Cudgel and Demolition Comet, since most people seem to think the Meteor Cudgel is the better of the two statistic wise.
Meteor Cudgel has 300-560 base variable ATP, grinds to +15, and has a maximum variable ATP of 330-590. The variable difference is 260 ATP, and with level 30 Shifta it will gain a maximum bonus of roughly 125 ATP (bringing the variable ATP to 330-715, a difference of 385 and a median of 522.5).
Demolition Comet has 530 base fixed ATP, grinds to +25, and has a maximum fixed ATP of 580. Since the ATP is fixed, there is no variance or Shifta bonus.
Without Shifta the Demolition Comet seems the overall better choice, as it will always give 580 ATP as opposed to the Meteor Cudgel having 330-590 with a median of 460.
With Shifta the issue gets a bit more convoluted. Level 30 Shifta bumps the Meteor Cudgel's maximum ATP to a whopping 715, but you also have to consider that the minimum is still 330. This means that the variance is now 385 and the median is 522.5. The Demolition Comet remains at 580, and therefore would still be the overall better weapon in a truely average scenario.
There's still one more issue: percentages. Let's add an area 25% and see what happens. The Meteor Cudgel's minimum is 330, median is 522.5, and maximum is 715. Add 25% to those and you get a new minimum of 412.5, a new median of 653.125, and a new maximum of 893.75. The Demolition Comet's 580 will now become 725. Again the Meteor Cudgel's maximum gets a notable boost, but because its median is well below the Demolition Comet's ATP the average falls even further behind.
This truly puts a new perspective on things. Weapons that first appear to be really strong may not be as effective as one thinks. You truly do have to examine a weapon's attributes to understand how it will work in the long run.
So why does variable ATP exist in the first place?
For a little variety, it seems. If you'll remember in the quest The Value of Money you have to teach the husband that a weapon is more than just its outer appearance. You have to pay attention to its attributes. Variable ATP is just one more attribute that needs to be looked over carefully. Some weapons (like the Meteor Cudgel and Red Sword) aren't as reliable as they first appear. They have very high variable ATP scores and will do extremely wild damage. The only real complaint is that Sonic Team didn't put any info about variable ATP in the game. The only way to truly know about it is from official Sega/ST publications.
Anyway, that about covers it. You can look over weapons to check for variable ATP here on PSOW using either the item database or the item comparison.
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php
http://www.pso-world.com/item_compare.php
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Questions or comments? Anything missing or incorrect?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2005-07-16 13:47 ]</font>
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Variable ATP on Weapons Q & A
by Vulpes Mundi
What is variable ATP?
Looking at a weapon in the item database that has a variable ATP, it will be listed as ATP: X-Y, X being the minimum possibility and Y being the maximum possibility. The calculated ATP will be somewhere between those two values. The game will calculate a variable ATP for each successful attack and add it to the character's base ATP. Just remember that the Y value will be what the game displays when it shows the combined statistic for a character's ATP.
Do grinders effect variable ATP?
No. When you grind a weapon it adds equally to both ends of the variable ATP, keeping the variance the same. Lets assume a weapon has a default variable ATP of 90-100. If you grind that weapon to +5 (adding 10 ATP) your new variable ATP will be 100-110.
Does Shifta effect variable ATP?
Yes. When casting a level 30 Shifta, a weapon with a variable ATP will gain roughly 48% (actual amount is 47.7%, but for ease of use we'll stick to 48%) of the variable difference on the maximum (Y) value. Lets assume a weapon has a default variable ATP of 90-100, which gives us a 10 ATP variance. If level 30 Shifta is cast on that character this weapon will gain an ATP bonus equal to roughly 48% of 10, or roughly a 5 ATP bonus. However, this bonus is only added to the maximum (Y) value of variable ATP. And thus our 90-100 variable ATP weapon will now do 90-105 variable ATP. I also assume this works in reverse with Jellen by reducing the maximum (Y) value, but not changing the minimum (X) value. Also remember that different levels of Shifta and Jellen will have a different resulting bonus, and that they also affect the character's ATP.
How about grinders and Shifta combined?
Grinders raise the variable ATP equally so that the variance between the minimum (X) and maximum (Y) values never changes. Therefore, the Shifta bonus will remain the same regardless of grinders.
Why does only the maximum (Y) value get a bonus?
This may be done for a few reasons. First, a weapon with a variable ATP is somewhat less reliable than a weapon with a fixed ATP. So for that reason the weapon gains on its maximum to recover a little from being less reliable by being given the chance to do more damage. However, because it gets stronger from this Shifta bonus it also becomes even less reliable by getting an even wilder variable ATP. It's a double-edged sword, if you'll pardon the euphemism, but in the long run will still improve the weapon's effectiveness overall.
In a nutshell, how would we calculate maximum ATP?
Maximum ATP can be calculated like this...
Character ATP + (character ATP x Shifta bonus %) + Base Weapon Y ATP + (variance x Shifta bonus %) + Grinder bonus + Armor/Shield bonus = Maximum ATP display
For a more specific example lets use a character with 200 ATP, a weapon with 90-100 ATP grinded to +5, and a level 30 Shifta (48% bonus, or 0.48).
200 + (200 x 0.48 = 96) + 100 + (10 x 0.48 = 4.8) + 10 + 0 = 410.8, rounded to 411. The ATP displayed would be roughly 411.
Note: Slot units add directly to the character's ATP. So make sure they're all factored together for the character ATP.
If you want true maximum ATP including an area percentage...
(Base Weapon Y ATP + (variance x Shifta bonus %) + Grinder bonus) x Area % = Area % bonus + Maximum ATP display (from the previous calculation) = True maximum ATP
For example: if we were fighting in the Cave with the previous weapon and it has 30% A.Beast.
(100 + (10 x 0.48 = 4.8) + 10 = 114.8) x .30 = 34.44 + 410.8 = 445.24, rounded to 445. The true maximum ATP would be roughly 445.
Note: Remember that from Episode 1 & 2 and beyond, weapon area % only effects the weapon ATP and no longer effects a character's ATP.
Is there a way to figure out a decent average effectiveness of a weapon with variable ATP?
Yes. You can calculate a median (middle) ATP that would be an average scenario of what the variable ATP will calculate. To do this, find the difference in the Variable ATP. Using our example of 90-100, the difference is 10 ATP. Now divide that difference by 2. For our example 10 divided by 2 equals 5. Now take that value and subtract it from the maximum value to find the median. For our example 100 minus 5 equals 95. So granted an average scenario our variable ATP weapon will average 95 ATP. Remember to calculate Shifta bonuses separately.
How about a useful comparison example?
Sure. Lets use the Meteor Cudgel and Demolition Comet, since most people seem to think the Meteor Cudgel is the better of the two statistic wise.
Meteor Cudgel has 300-560 base variable ATP, grinds to +15, and has a maximum variable ATP of 330-590. The variable difference is 260 ATP, and with level 30 Shifta it will gain a maximum bonus of roughly 125 ATP (bringing the variable ATP to 330-715, a difference of 385 and a median of 522.5).
Demolition Comet has 530 base fixed ATP, grinds to +25, and has a maximum fixed ATP of 580. Since the ATP is fixed, there is no variance or Shifta bonus.
Without Shifta the Demolition Comet seems the overall better choice, as it will always give 580 ATP as opposed to the Meteor Cudgel having 330-590 with a median of 460.
With Shifta the issue gets a bit more convoluted. Level 30 Shifta bumps the Meteor Cudgel's maximum ATP to a whopping 715, but you also have to consider that the minimum is still 330. This means that the variance is now 385 and the median is 522.5. The Demolition Comet remains at 580, and therefore would still be the overall better weapon in a truely average scenario.
There's still one more issue: percentages. Let's add an area 25% and see what happens. The Meteor Cudgel's minimum is 330, median is 522.5, and maximum is 715. Add 25% to those and you get a new minimum of 412.5, a new median of 653.125, and a new maximum of 893.75. The Demolition Comet's 580 will now become 725. Again the Meteor Cudgel's maximum gets a notable boost, but because its median is well below the Demolition Comet's ATP the average falls even further behind.
This truly puts a new perspective on things. Weapons that first appear to be really strong may not be as effective as one thinks. You truly do have to examine a weapon's attributes to understand how it will work in the long run.
So why does variable ATP exist in the first place?
For a little variety, it seems. If you'll remember in the quest The Value of Money you have to teach the husband that a weapon is more than just its outer appearance. You have to pay attention to its attributes. Variable ATP is just one more attribute that needs to be looked over carefully. Some weapons (like the Meteor Cudgel and Red Sword) aren't as reliable as they first appear. They have very high variable ATP scores and will do extremely wild damage. The only real complaint is that Sonic Team didn't put any info about variable ATP in the game. The only way to truly know about it is from official Sega/ST publications.
Anyway, that about covers it. You can look over weapons to check for variable ATP here on PSOW using either the item database or the item comparison.
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php
http://www.pso-world.com/item_compare.php
___________________________________
Questions or comments? Anything missing or incorrect?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VulpesMundi on 2005-07-16 13:47 ]</font>