The uses of "Photon" Material

[-Fossil-]

I enjoy the possibilities of Photon usage because it’s a very plausible idea. Photons are much like the construct of a high frequency carbon material. This would be something more along the lines of a very, very pure diamond, that can be manufactured, and have its atomic structure tampered with in order to keep it to hold its shape.

This would end up having use of blades that could cut through anything, and never break, chip, or crack. They could easily lighten the weight of a standard carbon steel blade we use now a days. This would take some training to get used to considering there would be little weight on the blade, but enough to stabilize the hilt and the blade.

They could sharpen a piece of this material down to the molecule, giving it the ability to maintain that thickness of the edge and never chip. The possibilities of this would make a sword type weapon have the attributes to cut through solid steel like a steak knife trough an apple, taking little force to penetrate the material.

Bullets could be re used after target practice, and cut down on the costs of things. Since carbon is an abundant material, and almost easily copied, the material could be purified and given a light weight, and make bullets much easier to carry in a weapon. This would allow a standard 15 shot magazine to hold up to 50 shells. The bullets could be smaller, but given a distinct shape that would allow 0x more damage in the target then a standard lead bullet. We currently cannot add these grooves and such to give the bullet this potential because the lead would rip apart after being shot, and would not hard the target. Photon weaponry and bullets would hold that shape, allowing for smaller yet more effective projectiles.

What are your thoughts? Any uses you can think of?

[Quo]

A photon is the basic particle of light. Pure energy. A laser is a "photon gun." A photon sword is complete nonsense. How could you hold the photons in place to make the blade? How could you keep the photons that make up the blade at a high enough frequency (and therefore energy) to inflict damage but at the same time keep the photons that radiate from the sword a low enough frequency that you could define an area as the blade? You couldn't as far as I can see. Furthermore, where would you get the energy for the sword? Do you want to replace the duracell in your sword while you're hacking away?

[-Fossil-]

I thought Photon material was more along the lines of a crystal, and not a "Light Saber?"

Thats what i got from it in the game anyhow. I mean there are shell casings on some of the guns, there are magazines and revolvers. There are weapons that have a blade that comes out (Such as that partisen that open up and a blade moves out)

As far as i can tell they are NOT light based, they are crystals formed from photons...been watchin a little too much star wars?

--multiple post, sorry, my computer messed up.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Fossil- on 2005-06-13 08:08 ]</font>

[Quo]

You can delete unwanted posts in the "edit post" screen. IIRC, there's a little box that says "delete this post," check it and click "submit."

I'm just giving you the physical side of it. If ST wants to make up a material and call it photon, that's up to them. In real life, photons are massless particles of light.

[-Fossil-]

Ahh, thank you for that (New to the boards)

Well i understand how you mean, as far as it being light based. You wouldnt be able to control the length it went out, and as far as something like the "saber" weapons, you would end up killing yourself more often then your enemy, because light wouldnt have a weight, so it would feel like you were swinging the hilt around all the time and eventually it would slap back and hit you in the face.

BUT, I always thought of Photons as more of a hightly dense crystal, with a high frequency atomic residency, basicallyl ike a crystal that constantly vibrates from some kind of radiation, that would be safe to be around. This would explain as to why it always glows lighter and then dims down over and over again.

So in turn that is A LOT more plausable then "light" energy. Im not sure if they ever even said that it is light, i could have sworn i had seen the description of the photons as "crystals" therefore they would be able to be sharpened down, handled by hand,and would have a physical weight to them; but would be much lighter then steel, thus having the over sized blades like the Swords and stuff.

But yes, you are correct is the fact that light energy wouldnt work, but the crystal form im talking about would certainly work as long as it were dense enough.

[Blitzkommando]

Actually, that's not entirely accurate... What I mean to say is, with the new technologies that have been developed in the last decade, the whole idea of a "Light Constant" has been destroyed. Light photons, what you are talking about, have been slowed from their 186000MPS, to 0MPH. They have also slowed them to speeds inbetween, one of the more interresting of which is 35MPH. Your car would, in this case, be going more than twice the speed of light on a standard freeway! It has also been forced to go nearly 500 times its normal speed, about 93 Million Miles per SECOND. The particles were moving so fast in fact, that they technically "arrived" before they were ever "sent".

Now on to the practicality. These lasers that were used are EXTREMELY expensive. They also require thousands of times the ammount of energy than that used to power your entire house. Obviously, nothing can be made handheld that supplies Billions of watts of power in the compact size of the hilt of a sword. Now, that was for the basic lasers themselves.

In order to speed up light, it envolves using plasma, the fourth state of matter, basically a super-heated gas. The plasma is held at temperatures hotter than the surface of the sun, over 14Million degrees Farenheit. It is so hot that no material on earth can withstand the heat. But, magnetic fields that are strong enough to contain the plasma are used. It is a very similar process to what is used in Fusion reactions.

And for slowing light. Well, this one is relatively easy. All that is really required is a specially modified superconductor. The superconductor is cooled to about .015 of a degree (Celsius) from absolute zero (absolute zero is: 0 Kelvin, -273.15 Celsius, -459.67 Farenheit). And, as with laws of physics, the less heat energy there is (there is no such thing as "cold" just absense of heat), the less energy there is in an object. This also includes light. The light loses so much energy in fact it begins to slow down. And if conducted properly, stops.

In basic gist, we cannot do it today, but as for what tomorrow brings...? Well, they said it would be impossible to go faster than the speed of sound. And the Space Shuttle averages about 15 times the speed of sound just outside the atmosphere. Who knows, photon sabers could potentially be used. However, why use that when you can pull out a .50 calibur rifle that fires within the millimeter at over 2.5 miles away, eh?

And for non-believers:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1124540.stm

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/science/053000sci-physics-light.html

Do some Googling and you can find even more information about this fascinating subject.

[-Fossil-]

Yeah, i have heard/read most of that, still some facts i did not know.

BUT as far as i was saying, and it seems no one is really paying attention to; i am referring to Photon materials as a crystal form. Something you can handle, NOT a light matter.

I always assumed Photons in PSO were in a crystal form, hence the blade shaped weapons, the fact that there are magazines and revolvers.

Read the reply i had made before this to understand what i mean by this topic.

Im not sure as to why everyone keeps thinking of Light then the material in the game is obviously not light. Light cannot be shaped into the form of say, the weapons like a "dagger" or even sharpened, so there is no reason to thing its light. I believe they even referred to it as "photon Crystals" in the game.

The light energy may not be too plausable untill we find an unlimited supply of energy, but as far as it goes in crystal form, it is very plausable.

Again, read the last reply i made.

[Blitzkommando]

I believe you misunderstood my point. With light, you could feasibly create a set area for it to be, using that technology, thus creating solid-state photon weapons. I read your posts, and was replying more-so to correct that light is a constant.

As for the crystals. I agree that could be done. Very high density diamonds is an interresting idea, though what would keep them at such a high density without shattering upon impact? Also, the crystals would need a slight name adjustment so as not to confuse between light photons and crystal photons. Perhaps, "crytons"? ehehe Any way that is renamed would result in laughs from the cheezyness. The most likely name would be from whomever discovers the method for creating photonic crystals (or however the crystals are eventually described).

[-Fossil-]

Oh i understood your post. You were clarifying the usage of a pure light energy source. While your explination is good, it wasnt what i was talking about.

Hmm, well i guess crystals arent the correct word to use. More like diamonds. A pure form of energy manufactured down into such a dense matter that it forms a diamond state, just as carbon turns to diamond after huge amounts of pressure and heat are exerted onto it.

The density of the material would keep it together upon impact. Think of it like when you think of metal. Its structure stays together when hitting a agrest, well using a high density photon diamon blade, and sharpened down to the molecule of the edge, it would hold that form without needing to be sharpened.

The weight of the weapon, as i said, ould be lighter, thus the large blades you see in PSO. It would be a high frequency vibration, thus the "glow" all the weapon have. The weapon would vibrate if it was created. There would have to be some way of stablizing it, but once its done it would keep itself in check. The vibrations of the material and the density should keep it held in its place, dissipating all of the un-stable energy within it.

Just in theory though; i always saw the weapons in PSO as more of a diamon or crystal then light.

BUT, as i stated; there wouldnt be a plausable way to bend light into the shape of the dagger type weapons and keep the weapon stable. A Lazer gun, or a straight bladed saber would be plausable, but NOT the dagger shaped weapons; one of the main reasons why i always saw it as a crystal.

[Blitzkommando]

There is no such thing as a straight line in curved space. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

And my point about it shattering is that very high density items, when whacked about, tend not to do so well. You have diamond grinders, which diamond dust is coated on the grinder. Sure, but a solid, rather thin, diamond blade would likely be too fragile to use as a weapon. Let's say that your average human male swings it, against another human male. The defender, doing what he is supposed to, blocks. The two diamonds make contact on a atom-thick edge (molecules play no part in diamonds since they are a pure carbon substance). Thus, they shatter. Diamonds, for as strong as they are, are not like metal. Diamonds bend about as much as an 90 year old guy in a walker. Neither can bend without harming the structure. Metal on the other hand, is elastic. It can bend, pull, and stretch. This is why steel was so successful in midevil weaponry. It gave to blows, yet was able to be sharpened to where it could cut. Even those new Zircronium knives give a bit. But a diamond, as a perfectly structured item, is so interlocked it will not give.

This is why diamonds, crystals and non-metals in general cannot be used for hand-to-hand combat weapons. Now if you could make that, "Transparent aluminium" from Star Trek... that could be used indeed.

[-Fossil-]

What i mean is; bending light into the shape of the dagger would not work, but having the light in the shape of say, the sabers, is much more plausable.

Hmm, i suppose thats true. IT WOULD work bestwith bullets, but no longer would be reusable.

Now what ar your ideas/concepts of making a material that is in a pure form of energy, that you can handle (Not light) that could bend, yet be sharpened as a material such as a blade?

[UltimateShifty]

You guys are forgetting one thing though..
I hear you all talking about light, but current physics doesn't even know what 'light' is. When its convenient for them, they see it as a ray which consists of particles called photons (yes i read this in a previous post also) but there is another form of light and thats simple 'waves'. My point is, we use one of the two forms when we need it, but we dont really know what light really is. Before coming up with theories about all this, lets try to find out what light is exactly.

But about your theories..
First, turning light into some specific form cant be done i think, first you have to get the light to its absolute zero point temperature (like i also have read here) but that means it will lose its energy and i dont think its of any use then, it will probably just shatter on impact...

Secondly, light as something solid like a crystal hmm well, i wouldnt call it light then cuz its simply not light then anymore xD but like i said, we need to know what light is first.

I hope i made some sense http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[-Fossil-]

Well as i have been trying to point out; i never even called Photons light in this discussion, i was only referring to the usage of a physical material that can be handled. Photons by means of the PSO photons, not the photons we use in out science.

Basically a summary of the post at hand; what uses or what ways would you think to stabilize a crystal form of pure energy so that it could be used as a weapon, or other purposes?

[Fossil]

On 2005-06-13 07:58, Quo wrote:
A photon sword is complete nonsense. How could you hold the photons in place to make the blade? How could you keep the photons that make up the blade at a high enough frequency (and therefore energy) to inflict damage but at the same time keep the photons that radiate from the sword a low enough frequency that you could define an area as the blade?

*cough* Lightsaber

[UltimateShifty]

Basically a summary of the post at hand; what uses or what ways would you think to stabilize a crystal form of pure energy so that it could be used as a weapon, or other purposes?

Not? http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[clance]

I got lost on post 1. :S

[Tycho]

Uhuh, Photon crystal means crystal crystal. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif
I'm with Blitz. <_<

[Quo]

On 2005-06-13 10:12, UltimateShifty wrote:
You guys are forgetting one thing though..
I hear you all talking about light, but current physics doesn't even know what 'light' is. When its convenient for them, they see it as a ray which consists of particles called photons (yes i read this in a previous post also) but there is another form of light and thats simple 'waves'. My point is, we use one of the two forms when we need it, but we dont really know what light really is. Before coming up with theories about all this, lets try to find out what light is exactly.


Not entirely true. Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation. A magnetic field which creates an electric field which creates a magnetic field and propogates itself through space. If the radiation happens to have a certain frequency, we call it light. It travels like a wave but interacts like a particle. But that doesn't mean we don't know what it is. Electrons, protons and all the other sub-atomic particles behave the same way.



On 2005-06-13 10:33, Fossil wrote:

*cough* Lightsaber


That's why Star Wars is fantasy and not Science Fiction http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[UltimateShifty]

Not entirely true. Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation. A magnetic field which creates an electric field which creates a magnetic field and propogates itself through space. If the radiation happens to have a certain frequency, we call it light. It travels like a wave but interacts like a particle. But that doesn't mean we don't know what it is. Electrons, protons and all the other sub-atomic particles behave the same way.

Tell my physics teacher that http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[-Fossil-]

Lol, physics teachers dont listen to anything, lol.

[Moritas]

well... This is getting really deep... its like you researched for days to make one post >.> you guys are cuuraaazzy!

[UltimateShifty]

Maybe if you payed some attention during physics class, you might have learned something http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

And so true, they dont listen http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

But to get back to the subjec, with our light you cant create something solid i think, if it consists of fields etc, i dont think its possible to make a solid object like a sword of it.

And then the PSO version of photon, well they can do whatever they want, they are the creators http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif if they want to make it solid and use it to make a sword, let them be http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif thats my answer http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[-Fossil-]

Photon

In ages long past, mankind performed experiments to study "ether," a substance that was believed to be an intrinsic element that existed in empty space.

It was eventually discovered that "Photons" in the atmosphere were responsible for binding the universe together. In other words, all forms of energy in the atmosphere could be grouped together to form "Photons."

One of the most revolutionary devices in the history of mankind was the Photon Generator, which was able to take raw atmospheric energy and reduce it down to its particulate nature in order to extract Photons.

As research continued, more and more uses were found for the practical application of Photon energy. It was soon discovered that using certain minerals as the source for Photons made it possible to harness this energy to create Photon weapons.

This new energy source was a double-edged sword: Photon energy had saved the world from its energy crisis and spurred on scientific advancement, yet it also doomed the nations of the world into falling into another arms race in the name of war and self-defense.

taken from psobb.com


Ahh, well from reading that then im completely un-confused. I was under the impression that the energy and meterial used in PSO was a solid material.

This discussion sort of took a turn into the useage of light distortion and its properties, non of the ideas posted which are trun, yet none false; all of it is just speculation and unknown.

But i made this topic to talk about the form that photons had taken IN PSO, but it seems the weapon desgins and mechanics are all screwy and dont match up correctly if the weapons are purely energy based (light)

But from reading this exerpt, that explains it all in "Sega Team" lingo.

But this was a very interesting and enjoyable conversation. I havent spoken on physis for awhile, and i found this topic very fun to talk about; although everyone sort of ignored the point of the topic and went on to talk about Photons that out science describes as basic energy that forms light and such.

But hey, now that i read what Sega Teame has to say about it, the designs and such are just odd. Why would they have light bent in the shape of a dagger like that? It would be VERY un-stable. Why would they have light energy in a bullet casing? They only thing that explained it was a crystall ike form of energy, but thats out the window, so now we can all discuss the useage of light lol, even though everyone already IS.

[UltimateShifty]

if you read correctly, we also discussed your topic...

first we claimed it to be false in OUR world, aka not possible.
then we also said something about your theory, but since ST created it (haha) anything is possible. Like you have shown now, its still unknown how a solid form is created and my guess is: ST has no clue either http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

dont you agree?

[-Fossil-]

Oh i didnt mean to say no one spoke on my topic.

Everyone had loads of input and i really enjoyed this posic; reason i posted it. I was just under the impression they were solids, based on the useage of the weapons, and their designs. But i was using logic with that, and only a solid would work for some of the things. (Flowens sword anyone?)

My theory was this:

They took a substance they called Photon Energy, that was more like a gas (Sort of like Carbon) and put it under extreemely high pressure and heat, forming a solid. Blits i believe remnded me that steel bends and shifts to the vibrations and such of its contact with a target, and something perfectly solid like a photon diamond would just shatter on impact; thus throwing my thought out the window.

BUT i did ask what way could they harness a type of energy to form something very dence, yet flexable. Thats how i had imagined Photon Crystal weapons. Something VERY dence, VERY light, flexable, and held its shape.

Now that i read Sega Team's little explination on Photon energy, and see that it is in fact light that they based the weapon on, my theory is out the window (and my thoughts of it being solid material in the game are gone as well, but it seems more plausable) but now even more theorys of how they could shape light in the way they do come into play.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Fossil- on 2005-06-13 12:17 ]</font>

[UltimateShifty]

yeah i know and i get it http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

But the topic is finished i guess http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[-Fossil-]

Still, i learned a few things i wont forget (Like Sega dont know jack about physics)

But this was a fun topic; thank you all for your input and replys!

[UltimateShifty]

haha youre welcome http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Blitzkommando]

Ah just one final thing about what you said, hehe. Dense != Light Even with the lower elements such as carbon. The more dense, the more mass, thus the more gravitational attraction = heavier than a freaking semi-truck.

But yes, enjoyable conversation. It was very logical, and well thought out. We need more like this. Not necessarily on physics per se, but just good discussions and not arguments.

[UltimateShifty]

I agree http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[-Fossil-]

On 2005-06-13 12:39, BLITZKOMMANDO wrote:
Ah just one final thing about what you said, hehe. Dense != Light Even with the lower elements such as carbon. The more dense, the more mass, thus the more gravitational attraction = heavier than a freaking semi-truck.

But yes, enjoyable conversation. It was very logical, and well thought out. We need more like this. Not necessarily on physics per se, but just good discussions and not arguments.



*slaps forehead*

You know i was thinking that the ENTIRE time i was typing the weight issue, but for some reason, my brain wouldnt send the correct signal to my fingers so that i would type a more logical reasoning lol.

I havent had my coffee today...

I agree, it was a very fun conversation; and i did pick up a few things on physics i seem to have forgotten.

[UltimateShifty]

The gravitational force is pretty small tho...
you guys know the formula right?
the Gravitational constant or whatever you name it in english, is soo damn small http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

hm wasnt it: M1 x M2 / r x G

If so, what do you think the 2 masses are?

[-Fossil-]

You talking about the redshift formula or the gravitational potential formula?

[UltimateShifty]

gravitational

[-Fossil-]

Well both have to do with gravity.

The formula for gravitational potency is Ug=MGH, i believe. Im not sure what formula you have there.

[Quo]

Thats the formula for universal gravitation. Gravitational force equals the universal gravitational constant, G, (.0000000000667) times the product of the two masses divided by the square of the distance between the centers of the two masses.

In this case the two masses are the diamond sword and Ragol (which we assume to be the size and mass of Earth). But even though G is very small and the objects are fairly far apart, your crystal sword is still hella heavy because ragol (or Earth) is quite massive.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Quo on 2005-06-13 13:39 ]</font>

[-Fossil-]

Ahh, i see how you mean now; the swords weight would only be determined by the second mass it counteracts with, correct? The balance is always there, but if your on something such as the moon or something, the weight would be reduced such as yourself; so in any point even a lighter blade has its chance to be overly heavy.

But the density issue is what makes the crystal sword so heavy; an actual "crystal" sword would be quite light, but VERY fragile.

[UltimateShifty]

M x G x H is gravitation energy, not force

But it all depends no the masses and I dont know how much your sword will be. So beats me http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

And if it is that heavy, built some sort of mechanic something in it that can launch itself into the direction of your opponent http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif since you will prolly have invented an unlimited energy source http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif:P
nah its bull http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

hey lets ask ST!

[-Fossil-]

Sonic team would just say something like they invented a way to move the gravity out of the way, or something that made its own personal gravitational feild that pushed against everything else, making it lighter.

Something like that kind of bull, hahaha.

[King_Rappy]

Um, just letting you guys know, in case you already didn't, but... The photon from PSO isnt supposed to be the same as light particles. It's just an energy that Sonic Team made up, not light.

[darkholemind]

Yeah, the way you're describing it with gravity, I imagine would be the weight of nuetron material from a nuetron star, that would fit, but a teaspoon of the stuff weighs a few hundred thousand tons, so your sword is hella heavy indeed.......ST has it's own educational system I'm sure, which is subpar elementry school, they have no clue on what they speak of....

[Fossil]

If you could gravitationally levitate mini mirrors when the blade protruded it could act as a box for the light. I read that from a link I think it was in this topic about scientists trapping light. Just keeping the mirrors from being damaged would be the hard part. >_>

[Assazin]

Photon=Plasma=Ultra high temperature light or liquid.
Thats all.

[slayer_1327]

Where did you all even think of light as a factor??? When you think about it the photon spheres/crystals cannot be any fomr of light..think about the description high purity "CRYSTAL"- A homogenous solid formed by a repeating, three-dimensional pattern of atoms, ions, or molecules and having fixed distances between constituent parts.
I hardly think light is a solid. Plus, a photon drop is something that is dropped and then picked up by the character. You cannot pick up light, and I don't what any article says, it is a fact. Although it would be cool, light is totally ruled out in this game, and sega can make any thing whatever they want it to be...it is a game; not real at all, you are speaking in terms of reality and you cannot apply it to a game...all it is is pixels projected on to a piece of glass and in the game you can pick up these ITEMS therefore they can be nothing other then a solid. But I do find the reality of this sugject quite fascinating

[adamgnome104]

On 2005-06-13 07:58, Quo wrote:
A photon is the basic particle of light. Pure energy. A laser is a "photon gun." A photon sword is complete nonsense. How could you hold the photons in place to make the blade? How could you keep the photons that make up the blade at a high enough frequency (and therefore energy) to inflict damage but at the same time keep the photons that radiate from the sword a low enough frequency that you could define an area as the blade? You couldn't as far as I can see. Furthermore, where would you get the energy for the sword? Do you want to replace the duracell in your sword while you're hacking away?



>_> There's a reason why PSO is Science FICTION!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: adamgnome104 on 2005-06-14 11:54 ]</font>

[Blitzkommando]

On 2005-06-14 11:40, slayer_1327 wrote:
[edited to conserve space]

We all realize that. However, if you had cared to read what had been posted you would have seen that the definition of a photon is light. Please, re-read all of the previous posts to obtain a better idea as to all of the reasoning behind all of the posts. I really, really don't want to explain it all over again for someone who cares not to read and thus will not read it even if I do repost.

[-Fossil-]

This was a fun discussion, but i feel all the subject have been covered and full filled my need to post this topic. I was under the impression Sega Team used "photon" material as a crystal form, which they are actuallyu singl ight if the person had read what i posted in one of my replys. Everyon else explained things i had moslty known (other then some thingsl ike slowingdown light to 35 mph and those sort of things, which i found extreemely interesting for a subject that i did not expect to go so deep with)

This was a fun topic, thanks to you all for your input http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif