Japanese BB harder?

[Hrith]

Was thinking about that earlier...

All Japanese BB players I know have said that Ultimate Episode 4 is incredibly difficult, that going into Desert on Ultimate without having crazy equipment and Lv 160+ was suicide, etc.

Desert is like Ruins to me, monsters have more HP and are way more annoying and vicious, but it's like Ruins. With a good FO, Desert is almost easy; it's challenging and fun, but not hard, let alone impossible.

Seabed and Tower are a lot harder than this, a lot.
Truly, Dolmdarl has about the same ATP as Goran Detonator >_> the former is one of the weakest Seabed monsters, the latter one of the strongest of Desert.

In Desert, S/D/J/Z Lv.30 make most monsters deal less that 50 damage to me, allowing me to use Berserk 24/7, and I only die once every 5 or 6 runs because of it.

In Seabed and Tower, most monsters aren't even affected by Deband/Jellen (Recon, Sinow Zoa, Deldepth, Morfos, Delbiter, Mericarol, Merikle, Mericus, Gi Gue, Ill Gill, Del Lily, Epsilon).

I remember a debate on Ep2 and Ep4 respective difficulties. Well, as far as US BB is concerned, this debate is null. I'd rank Seabed or Tower as three times harder than Desert, even Gal Da Val Islands can be more difficult.

I doubt it's the case, but I've seen it several times on other games, the US version difficulty may have been toned down.

[Saiffy]

I've only done desert on normal(All solo... >_>)

Personally, I always thought it was tough, but with a good team could be easilly cleared. It's not meant to be solo'd, basically. ST expected most people to be in a team for it. Perhaps they lowered the difficulty for it, only one real way to find out. Not like any of this matters for me, though. I have no plans to renew my BB HL anytime soon(Maybe to keep my character, haven't decided yet)


Since when is jellen and deband useless with Delbiters and Zoas?

[Hrith]

Yeah, I meant in general, not in solo or multi, specifically.

I did a solo run of Ultimate Desert, only one death (Yowie/Lizard multi hit), it was long though, I agree that it's not meant to be soloed.
But only 2 people can clear it fine.


On 2005-09-27 06:02, Saiffy wrote:
Since when is jellen and deband useless with Delbiters and Zoas?Delbiter's Charge is fixed damage, Sinow Zoa aren't really affected by Shifta due to their insane ATP variance, they can still deal 90% of their damage after being tagged by Jellen Lv.30 >_>

I did not mean that Jellen is useless on all those monsters (Del Lily and Ill Gill still deal physical damage, Ill Gill's tackle being a physical attack, making Jellen vital on that monster), but they can bypass it (Del Lily's Megid, Ill Gill's "purple" scythe).

While a Goran Detonator under Jellen Lv.30 is only something to laugh at.

[Notos]

I doubt ST actually spend the effort to lower difficulity for the US version. It's too much work for them to change the stats of all ep4 ult mobs.

Don't forget you're over lv170 and have uber equip. Add lv30 support and you're an overkill.

I wouldn't say ep4 is hard, it's just annoying. The mobs themselves don't do much damage. But all of them have special ability that make them a pain to take down. Also, the quicksand rooms make fighting these mobs even more annoying.

At least ST is trying something new. They went from raw damage and 1 hit kill in ep2 to fancy mobs in ep4.

[Hrith]

On 2005-09-27 06:38, Notos wrote:
Don't forget you're over lv170 and have uber equip.And still get owned in Seabed.

I'm not saying Ep4 is bad, I really like Ep4, it's definitely a new experience. But it's not very difficult, contrary to what I heard when I did not play the game.

[Para]

I doubt I would catagorize Goran Detonator as one of the tougher monsters... Its a good monster to mix into battle but not something like Delbiter where it can cause trouble on its own completely.

If I would relate any monster together... maybe Delbiter and Zu together since they both have attacks of fixed damage (i think zu does fixed damage.. i honestly cannot remember clearly after not playing so long.)

Like I said before, Episode IV is following a different formula towards difficulty. Instead of using the same formula of MORE POWER! it is more of tactics, innovation and mixture to make the area difficult.

Gotta remember that Tower doesn't really count as "Episode II together" even though it takes place in Episode II because the fact that it is a bonus add-on to Episode II. Comparing Seabed to Desert is a more appropriate comparision because both areas are a run along against the main story. Maybe in the future they would make something like Tower for Episode IV. However this isn't the time to speculate that.

You could be right that Tower is more difficult overall than Episode IV but you can't deny that Episode IV is hard in its own way.

As for US version being easier... It may be possible because when the US version was being created... they somewhat started from scratch (being with the test mode screenshots and stuff, then releasing Episode IV later rather than with the whole BB package) There is a possibility that it might be the same... I'm not sure.. you can speculate that SEGA AMERICA runs the US BB while SEGA Japan runs the japanese BB and that when SEGA AMERICA wanted to bring BB to America, they just took the source code and worked with it from scratch and made their own modifications. (Sorta like what they did with Chinese BB but Chinese BB is somewhat different too since a company bought the license to run PSO:BB in chinese)

I personally cannot solo Episode IV Desert let alone if Kondoryuu spawns as the final boss... Well i could solo it.. but it will take a long time that in the end it would be counter-productive.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nites on 2005-09-27 16:05 ]</font>

[adamgnome104]

I doubt it.

It always depends on whatever characters you use, and how you do it.

And since you're Kef...

[Hrith]

I was not born at Lv 177 with Excalibur and Slicer of Fanatic http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

I understand that "new way towards difficulty", it's just that if failed. After Lv 160, Desert was almost easy to me. Difficulty-wise, it compares to Ruins a lot more than to Seabed (try soloing 4-5 or EN#4, it's nowhere near easy).

I do not understand why Tower would not be part of Ep2, you cannot access it from Ep1 or Ep4 http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif
Besides, Seabed is harder than Tower.

Zu is more annoying that Goran Detonator, but there are also a lot less of them.
ATP-wise, Goran Detonator is one of the highest in Desert.

Zu, Lizard and Yowie do fixed damage, and can be a lot more deadly.

I'm not disappointed in Ep4, not at all. It's just that it's a lot easier than Ep2. Spaceship is harder than Crater; Seabed and Tower are a lot harder than Desert.

The fact that Desert is easier than I expected is not a bad thing, it's quite a relief, actually >_>

[Para]

Overall I don't think PSO wasn't meant to be that hard. With a good team you can defeat any area easily.

As for crater being easier than spaceship... I rather find spaceship easier than crater. I die more frequently in crater than I do in spaceship.

What I am trying to say about Tower is that Tower eg. Expansion to Episode II. Episode IV has no expansion yet so to compare Episode II + Expansion to Episode IV without expansion isn't something I would consider a fair assessment. Tower isn't part of the main storyline and doing Tower isn't part of a run through the regular levels. Tower by nature was designed to be tougher with its Ill Gills and Del Lilies and combinations of mini bosses together.


The fact that Desert is easier than I expected is not a bad thing, it's quite a relief, actually >_> lol in some cases I gotta agree with you http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I love the graphics in Desert, I love the music in Desert and I like the Gorans in desert (because they're fun to fight with)
so if its easier to go through.. the more chance that i wouldnt mind doing normal runs through it for items and exp runs.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nites on 2005-09-27 21:40 ]</font>

[Vuman]

Episode 2's Spaceship and Temple remind me of old PC shooting games like Wolfenstein and Doom. It is difficult not because of the monsters but because you have to run around in a maze and backtracking sometimes to get to the next area, rinse and repeat.

Now at level 111, Very Hard Seabed still owns me big time especially Olga Flow. This place isn't hard to advance through but the monsters are powerful and they have periods of invulnerability.

Episode 4 yes I agree you need to be careful when entering a large room with several mobs. The rooms with multiple gates are annoying but I guess that's suposed to be challenging. Enemies like the Yowies, Zus, and Merissas need strategy to defeat. So I find Episode 4 more time consuming than Episode 2, but the enemies aren't stronger per say.

I wonder what this Tower quest is, I could use some items there.

[Saffran]

I myself wondered if the US didn'tget an easier version, after reading comments like "a force can make 300k in Desert easily" and others of the same kind.

Seriously, until very recently I couldn't fathom how forces could solo Ult desert. But well, after trying myself with a halfway melee fonewearl, I guess it is possible, provided you have the right equipment.

That said, I still can't solo Desert with my hucaseal. And just in passing, without SD from my mag I can't damage Kondrieu properly. That is, Shouren, Demo Comet and God Hand hit and do damage, the rest does between 0 and 6. (haven't tried Daylight Scar though)

I do see where you're coming from, Kef. Delbiters and Ill Gills can still own me in VH when I don't play seriously, whereas Desert is actually more of a hassle during certain special rooms that I just can't pass without consuming a lot more time than I would for, say, Seaside.

[EJ]

On 2005-09-27 20:39, Kef wrote:
....(try soloing 4-5 or EN#4, it's nowhere near easy).
.........

Just to point out you can't solo EN4 since of that switch door. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Last I left BB I was lvl 160 I believe and I did find desert easier than seabed in the JP verison, even though I was a FOmar I enjoyed desert but compare to towers, CCA, and seabed the desert is easier.

[Hrith]

Yeah http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

But I mentioned EN#4 because I was doing it with Nick (RAcast) once, and he got d/ced. I tried to solo the last rooms or Ruins 1, I gave up.

As far as soloing is concerned, I find 9-5 and 9-7 clearly harder than regular desert.

Even with my Lv 177 RAmarl, equipped with Excalibur, Slicer of Fanatic, Rage de Feu, Frozen Shooter, Lieutenant Mantle, V101, Cure/Paralysis/Freeze/Shock and Rupika, soloing Desert is long, and definitely counter-productive.

I really like playing Desert, though, nice setting, music, and since I very rarely die, not much exp loss.

Like Magenta, I think I'll play Ep2 more after I hit 200. A critical from a Sinow Zoa still takes over 1000 HP, I have 1400 =/

[Para]

Im glad theres people that love desert like me...

the music is one of the best ive heard for pso area battles. Its just so passionate and uprising in a way that it makes your heart feel alive and spiritual ^_^

Speaking about EN4...
I think its pretty easy to solo near the end... just get on one of the box platforms and shoot from a distance and you should do fine... (I know this because I too had a partner d/c in the middle of the run and i had to finish it myself.

Back on topic... yeah I can see where you are going in terms of difficulty with Episode II and Episode IV.

So im guessing Episode II > Episode IV > Episode I in difficulty. However I still think that in terms of innovation of difficulty.. Episode IV is the best for that catagory.

[Hrith]

I was in the last room on Ruins 1 of EN#4, not Ruins 2 =P

"Innovation of difficulty" is a weird concept, not sure what it means <_<

The main innovation in Ep4 to me is that when you fight a mob, the ones in the back of the mob can still hurt you (Ba Boota's Foie, Gorans' long range attacks), other than that, it's more or less like Ep1/2 monsters that would have gotten more vicious.

Except Dorphon, that one is ridiculous, it's three times the size of a Delbiter, and half as dangerous <_<

Well, Crater monsters aren't very powerful, anyway, except Zu.
Astark with his Shifta is barely more powerful than a VR Hildelt.

The innovation in Ep2 difficulty was "osoi wa" XP

[magenta]

On 2005-09-27 06:27, Kef wrote:

I did a solo run of Ultimate Desert, only one death (Yowie/Lizard multi hit), it was long though, I agree that it's not meant to be soloed.
But only 2 people can clear it fine.



ive soloed it several times, from lv170 onwards, no deaths. it indeed does take a long time.

I only seem to die when im in a group of 3 or more. but i can put this down to two simple reasons.

1) i only have to look after myself in solo, and can take greater care and time.

2) whenever im in agroup, regardless of how much i try to control the group, we always end up tackling all the enemies in the room/spawn at the same time. which can be a very bad idea with some spawns that have zus, merrissas, and yowies all together.


Successful, safe soloing can only be achieved if one takes care with approaching spawned group of enemies. In large rooms its best to just move forward to the point where only a "few" (1-3) of the enemies notice/and move towards you. from here on move back and deal with these creatures accordingly to their characteristics, i.e. yowie/lizard with melee wep, gorans and merissas with techs or mechs. after dealing with the few, then move forward again and get the attention of next 1-3 enemies.

so in large rooms one can break down the groups of enemies into smaller, more manageable parts.

however in smaller rooms where large numbers of enemies spawn immediately around you (and you have no choice in the matter but to deal with them all), the problem becomes harder.

my solution was to prioritise the enemies, in order of the most annoying/damaging. dealing with ones on the highest priority so forth.

in desert runs this the order of priority i have come up with, which may be different for different type of chars.

1) zus - most annoying and damaging beast in the desert, any group of enemies is made considerably harder to deal with due to the presence of these airborne cheap hitters. - thus they make the top priority for me.. whenever i go in a room, and a zu appears, i head for it, and try to kill it straight away, ignoring, blocking hits from other enemies, such as gorans, and staying away from lizards, just so i can focus my fire on these winged pests.

2) merrissas - very annoying, plus do a great deal of damage when they belly flop on you, even more annoying is when they do a very weak hit, and still make you fall down. having merrissas around makes it harder to deal with enemies.

when combined with lizards i have to resort to techs (gi- or ra-foie) to take merissas out, as mechgun fire ends up being blocked.

3) lizards - generally easy to avoid till the last, but because of the resilience to guns (which i use to quickly dispense of gorans) i put them above gorans. get a good partisan type weapon to dispatch these, while causing damage to other enemies (such as gorans). if a lizard by chance spews on me, and takes me down, i immediately cast rabarta as i get up as to disrupt their spewing (and a good chance of freezing them), giving me time to get away and resta.

4) gorans/rappies - easiest of the desert enemies to deal with, even goran detonators, and end up in the bottom list. deal with all others first, then relax and have comfort in safely despatching these bonus enemies with mechs.

5) girtubulu - not normal enemy, very annoying and extremely damaging subboss, deal with all enemies first, except maybe for gorans, before tackling this bizzare creature. I usually use mechs/bazooka or grants (careful to keep my distance), and if my mag is well fed and my pb hits 100 (which it has a good chance of when fighting girtu) i equipped vivienne and go melee on its behind... sometimes i deliberately get close when using mechs in order to get hit, get pb, and get invincibility from my mag.

[Vuman]

Is there any pattern to the falling rocks or do they just fall in random positions?

[EJ]

Most of them drop in the same place at the same location of course I haven't played BB in like 6 months and it was the JP verison so I can't be sure on that.

But from my experience the rocks dropped in the same place in every run that I did in desert.

[Sitka]

Personally I hate solo runs with my Hucast on episode 4.

Team runs are not hard at all with level 30 supports, but solo runs with only traps and until last night, my Lame D'argent (finally unsealed that motha - yea!), were suicidal.

On xbox, I used to solo East and West Tower, even Towards the Future and Respective Tomorrow and they seem much easier to me than ult desert. It's not that the enemies were easier, it's just I knew the spawns and exactly where to stand to deal and avoid damage.

Episode 4 desert, on the other hand, has too many different types of enemies and although a force or a ranger can hit from a distance, a hucast has no choice but to get in the middle of things unless you want to take all day sniping from the doorways which is boring as hell.

It's nice to have the new areas, new enemies, rare bosses, new items, but I still find myself enjoying Retired Hunter and Doc's Secret Plan and longing for my beloved Tower runs.

I also enjoy seeing red boxes once in a while and Episode 4 red boxes are few and far between for me.

[adamgnome104]

The fact that it's someone's opinoin on what is harder, makes it very hard to find out what is REALLY harder. X.x

[magenta]

well i got back into ep i ultimate

and IMO soloing ult mines is harder than ult desert, though it takes less time.