Are humans becoming less self-reliant?

[Skorpius]

Make your own damn decisions. Do things for yourself. Asking for help should be the last resort in a situation, not the first.

Alright?

[Allos]

But...that would be the right thing to do!

[PJ]

...

Not if they don't understand.

A terrible concept in the world, someone needs help and doesn't know what to do!

It's annoying when people are so arrogant as to make fun of the human race anyways.

[Skorpius]

On 2005-12-05 15:36, PJ wrote:
Not if they don't understand.

That's an obvious exception. I figured I wouldn't have to mention such a case, where someone needed tutoring in an unknown field, but I guess I was mistaken.

Oh, and you could just come out and call me arrogant, if you wanted to. No need to pussyfoot around it.

[PJ]

Nah nah, I'm not even talking to you about being arrogant. It's the people who flat out say, "Humans are dumb." As in, not even hiding the words, just say it, who are so arrogant.

I generally like your points http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

EDIT: Although, I haven't seen a case where someone would ask for help if they did understand said thing. Unless they were borderline knowing, and wanted clarification.

All I'm saying is, asking for help is never a terrible thing, even if you think you're 100% on the ball.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PJ on 2005-12-05 16:11 ]</font>

[Skorpius]

I'm talking about this crap:

Let's use PSO as a basis of example.

WHAT CHARACTER SHOULD I USE?
WHAT SHOULD I NAME IT?
WHAT ID SHOULD I CHOOSE?
WHAT WEAPONS SHOULD I HUNT FOR?
WHAT WEAPONS SHOULD I USE?
WHAT MAG SHOULD I USE?
SHOULD I TRADE THIS FOR THAT?

Questions of personal preference. I'm not running your life for you, so make your own damn choices.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skorpius on 2005-12-05 16:15 ]</font>

[Solstis]

I shall take your advice and henceforth will make my own decisions. Good points, craploads of irony though.

[Skorpius]

Those who can't make decisions need to be told to do so.

[Sagasu]

While I believe its good and healthy to be able to rely on yourself, Its not nessesarily a bad thing that humans are willing to rely on others, and to be relied upon themselves. Call it a weakness if you will, but such trust if placed properly can be a beautiful thing. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Qrrrbrbirbel]

On 2005-12-05 14:48, Skorpius wrote:
Make your own damn decisions. Do things for yourself. Asking for help should be the last resort in a situation, not the first.

Alright?



Think Skorp was one of the one's in high school who never asked for help.

Teacher's say that you should always ask questions, cuz without those, you cant learn.

[hyperacute]

On 2005-12-05 16:14, Skorpius wrote:
I'm talking about this crap:

Let's use PSO as a basis of example.

WHAT CHARACTER SHOULD I USE?
WHAT SHOULD I NAME IT?
WHAT ID SHOULD I CHOOSE?
WHAT WEAPONS SHOULD I HUNT FOR?
WHAT WEAPONS SHOULD I USE?
WHAT MAG SHOULD I USE?
SHOULD I TRADE THIS FOR THAT?

Questions of personal preference. I'm not running your life for you, so make your own damn choices.



Ah, but there's a deal of difference in asking for help and asking for other people's opinions which a lot of those questions could well be.

That said, I'd rather people just got on and played the game...

[Skorpius]

Occasionally asking for help is not a bad thing, O've already said this. I ask for help on issues I'm not familiar with. However, asking for help with every single issue is not ok. It's annoying, for one, and it really doesn't help you at all. Give a man a fish, right? If you don't learn how to be self reliant, you'll never learn anything at all. You'll constantly rely on others to give you fish.

Asking for help with questions of personal preference is just dumb. It's not their life, it's yours, don't ask for what they would do because it doesn't matter. This is different from asking than asking for help, because others cannot help with these types of things. You may not like what I do, thus my opinions do not matter.

And yes, I was one of those students that learned things on his own. I attempted to solve problems using my own brain before I required any assistance.

[Deathscythealpha]

On 2005-12-05 16:14, Skorpius wrote:
I'm talking about this crap:

Let's use PSO as a basis of example.

WHAT CHARACTER SHOULD I USE?
WHAT SHOULD I NAME IT?
WHAT ID SHOULD I CHOOSE?
WHAT WEAPONS SHOULD I HUNT FOR?
WHAT WEAPONS SHOULD I USE?
WHAT MAG SHOULD I USE?
SHOULD I TRADE THIS FOR THAT?



I think that boils down to the overly critical online community bashing people for what they think is the wrong choice.

"Your a HUmar? Everyone knows HUmars are cheap!"
"Dude, your name sucks, if you had named him this you would have got the best ID drops"
"That weapon sucks/is cheap/is lame/is so overused"
"You leveled your Mag like that?!"
"Your an idiot for trading that for that!"

This happens as people always think they know the best route, so to get the exceptance of their peers (or what they hope is the exceptance) people ask questions to fidn out the right way to do things.

And I dont think its become less reliant, as asking questions is the way to improve one's self. Not sure what does what? Ask someone. You're not to clear if you're going around soemthign the right way? Ask somebody.

People shoulnt be looked down on for asking for help with something they are not clear on.

[Skorpius]

Those were example questions. The logic applies to everything else, from WHAT SHIRT SHOULD I WEAR, to WHAT TV SHOULD I BUY.

[HAYABUSA-FMW-]

Its become commonplace for everyone to be self concious and really worry about what others think of them.

As an example do you think that every teenager in the world is worrying about what their friends at school think of them?

Not just being popular mind you.
Lets say teenagers also think of what their teachers think of them.

Was my report okay? Did I do it correctly? What will my teacher think of it and grade it? Did I study enough to pass the test? Did I study enough? Will I pass?
-

Concerning the PSO thing.

Not everyone is going to devote their lives to the game, a given. They're not going to learn every nuance, every stat > equipment value, and love every minute of it.

For the most part the mentality is: "I want to have the cool items, have the cool equipment, in order to have fun."

So I understand you here. They don't need all that to have fun. Have fun in your own way.

My personal preferences are a RAmar first choice with a Kama mag. Two of the most unloved/bashed/hated things in the world. I talked about the Clam mag(can't recall the name off the top of my head) being a cool exact match to my to fit my FOmar's outfit and was bashed to no end in a lobby.

Saying to me "anything > Clam mag > Kama."

See but I never did it to spite myself and be called a n00b. I started PSO without the aids of PSOW, without a community to judge me.

I started out liking a RAmar and mainly had a Kama after growing a Power mag. Is there something inherently wrong with me?

I've learned to not care what others think. Let them live on their high horse, ya know?

Leave me the hell alone and let me have my fun, my preferences aren't stopping you from having fun are they?

Fine, use your HUnew or RAmarl to death. You're better than me, big whoop. Are you really? Are we both not paying the same monthly fee? Does it matter in a game where the point is to at least try to have fun and play nice with others?

But hey, back in the heyday of DC PSO I got this response from helping out someone who wanted to make a new character and wanted a female specifically:

"I already have a HUnewearl, ya know, Human + Female, so I don't think I'd want a FOmarl."

I didn't want to say interrupt and say that ya know, err:

Newmans = newearl/newm,
HU = HUnter class not HUman class,
HUnewearl = Newman Female Hunter,
FOmarl = Human Female Force, the only HUman female character we had at the time. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

(I bet I can dig far enough into General to find the topic as well, heh)

Edit= "HUnewearl = Human Female Hunter," http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif
Crap, I even forgot.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HAYABUSA-FMW- on 2005-12-07 23:44 ]</font>

[hyperacute]

On 2005-12-06 00:17, Skorpius wrote:
Those were example questions. The logic applies to everything else, from WHAT SHIRT SHOULD I WEAR, to WHAT TV SHOULD I BUY.



Both of which can be perfectly valid questions in the right context. The first could easily be asked of more experienced people when, for example attending a formal event where the questioner has no experience of the dresscode, the second is asked on forums and in shops everywhere when people want to make sure they are buying the right product/getting the best value for money.

I think the problem you seem to have is with people who expect to be told what to do. Self reliance is a wonderful thing but the ability to question and impart opinions/knowledge to one another is what alledgedly sets us apart from the animals.

As we say in these parts, "there's no harm in asking"...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hyperacute on 2005-12-06 01:32 ]</font>

[Skorpius]

Again, I never said asking questions was bad. If you read my first post, you'll see that it's better to figure it out yourself before you give up. Isn't it better to work on things on your own, and attempt them without aid before you go to others to do it for you?

Creating exceptional situations to the examples doesn't justify the actions. Looking to others to create your own preference base isn't how it's done. More often than not, you'll disagree with a number of answers that are given to you for a particular question of preference, weeding out the answers you dislike. If you ask a question, such as "What should I name my dog?", and you get others to find names for you, it's just being lazy. Fact finding questions, such as "Where can I find a list of dog names?" would be fine, unless you really didn't check the local library and online search engines. That's just being lazy, as well, getting others to find the list for you.

I'm trying to not use examples from PSO World, but they happen a lot more often here than anywhere else.

WHAT DOES RED SABER DO?

WHERE DO I FIND PHOTON CLAW?

WHO HAS HIGHER ATP?

These questions are easily answered by finding the info yourself in the database. It's right there, on the side of the forums. When I first started coming to this site, I looked up the information myself, before I ever joined the forums. Some people just skip passed all the data provided and go straight to getting someone else to do it for them.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skorpius on 2005-12-06 01:51 ]</font>

[KodiaX987]

You people are really champions at tearing examples out of their intended purpose, aren't you?

EDIT: Skorp, I think what you were looking for as the hammer example is this:

<+kritical> christin: you need to learn how to figure out stuff yourself..
<+Christin1> how do i do that

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KodiaX987 on 2005-12-06 06:07 ]</font>

[Maridia]

No kidding, Shuri. I'm also a firm believer that asking questions is fine, but as an EXAMPLE, there's TONS of information that is readily accessed on this very site that I bet half the people who ask questions never even bothered looking for. Want information on a weapon's special? Go to the database. Want to know what mp3 player to buy? Do a little research yourself first. Hello google, it's your friend.

It isn't bad to ask questions but people ARE getting less self relient. I know I'm guilty of it it too. You're all missing the point of the thread. People tend to ask before attempting to figure out on their own, which is generally very good and helpful in the long run for learning things.

[watashiwa]

I liked Skorp's examples regarding PSO, haha.

He forgot one of the most important ones, though. "SHOULD I GET BLUE BURST OR NOT?"

That one doesn't even have to do with statistics, really. It's like, do you want to play the game or not? Why should people decide which games you get or play..? Haha.

[Mystil]

My opinion is that..a lot of people out there are too lazy. PSOW database is big..and it would take time to find the answer you desire. Search engines and the like were created for a reason. But I suppose it's easier to bug the experienced players who may supply you with a quick answer.

I know you are tying this to RL and stuff, so I'll say somethings are better to handle with a little teamwork.

[Derek0660]

On 2005-12-05 16:14, Skorpius wrote:
I'm talking about this crap:

Let's use PSO as a basis of example.

WHAT CHARACTER SHOULD I USE?
WHAT SHOULD I NAME IT?
WHAT ID SHOULD I CHOOSE?
WHAT WEAPONS SHOULD I HUNT FOR?
WHAT WEAPONS SHOULD I USE?
WHAT MAG SHOULD I USE?
SHOULD I TRADE THIS FOR THAT?

Questions of personal preference. I'm not running your life for you, so make your own damn choices.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skorpius on 2005-12-05 16:15 ]</font>


I ignorantly assume that this is aimed at me http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Skorpius]

On 2005-12-06 15:21, Derek0660 wrote:
I ignorantly assume that this is aimed at me http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Why?

[Derek0660]

On 2005-12-06 16:41, Skorpius wrote:


On 2005-12-06 15:21, Derek0660 wrote:
I ignorantly assume that this is aimed at me http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Why?



I have made multiple topics along those lines recently.

[KaFKa]

OH MY FUCKING GOD SHUT UP

your all arguing saying the same thing.

only your variation of the same thing is more true than everyone else's.

[Skorpius]

On 2005-12-11 05:49, KaFKa wrote:
OH MY FUCKING GOD SHUT UP

The topic has been dead for 2 days.

[Nai_Calus]

Yeah, stupid questions. Everyone knows that FOmars are the best class, Rati are the best Mag and that a Soul Banish, an S-Rank Twin and a Holy Ray are all you'll ever need. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Seriously, though, I think you're right.

Hey, I just came up with this great idea. We'll build a giant computer to control the world so it'll take care of everything and we'll never have to do anything or think ever again. We can call it Mother Brain. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[Bladehunter]

Ehm... I have never read such a thread ANYWHERE, where people just throw away all sense and hammer down people for asking questions. Ofc it's irritating when people ask you questions, but what the frikkin doodik where you expecting when you became a "master" knowing it all? OFC PEOPLE WILL ASK! BECAUSE YOU KNOW!

And as mentioned before, the database is huge, that is if you find it in the first place. It's easier to find "forum" than "item database" and most people know what forums are, but not what database is.

[Skorpius]

1: A person becomes a 'master' by learning. It doesn't take any special abilities to just learn, anyone can do it.

2: The item database is not difficult to find. Not only is it located on the side bar that's visable on the main page, and forum index, but there is a guides link at the top of the page within each forum subdivision, and seen everywhere else beyond that. It doesn't take special abilities to find it.

3: What is OFC?

[DezoPenguin]

On 2005-12-15 06:34, Skorpius wrote:
1: A person becomes a 'master' by learning. It doesn't take any special abilities to just learn, anyone can do it.


And as you've already pointed out, there's a difference between asking for information (so you can make your own decisions) and asking for conclusions (so you don't have to think).



2: The item database is not difficult to find. Not only is it located on the side bar that's visable on the main page, and forum index, but there is a guides link at the top of the page within each forum subdivision, and seen everywhere else beyond that. It doesn't take special abilities to find it.


Ever notice how half the "WHAT DOES (Item-I-can't-be-bothered-to-look-up) DO?" questions don't even make it to the right forum? It makes me wonder how the askers actually read the answer.



3: What is OFC?



Not 100% sure, but I'd say "Of-(fill in your favorite expletive beginning with F)-Course."

[KodiaX987]

You guys can't read. You're all having a catfight over why people can't look for help by themselves while the original post of the thread was about people who need others to make up an opinion for them.

Hence, I declare

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/Shurikane/thread_direction.gif

and hereby pray to the God of Padlocks that he makes a quick stop here to do His job. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[Rion772]

On 2005-12-15 06:34, Skorpius wrote:

3: What is OFC?

Make your own damn decisions. Do things for yourself. Asking for help should be the last resort in a situation, not the first.

Alright?


1. It's Of Course...
2. Doesn't it just drive you up a fu!<king wall when someone asks questions repetitvly about the same damn thing, like not just a game in general, like an Ipod or something, something specific.

Example 1: DO THEY COME IN BLUE?!
HOW MANY SONGS CAN IT HOLD?
DOES IT REALLY HAVE A SCREEN?!?!?!
DOES IT COME WITH HEADPHONES?
HOW MUCH ARE THEY?
IS THAT INCLUDING TAX?
HOW MUCH IS SHIPPING?
WHERE DO I GO TO GET ONE?!
WHAT COLOR SHOULD I GET?
I'M NOT SURE IF I SHOULD GET ONE...SHOULD I?
HOW BIG ARE THEY?!
WILL IT FIT IN MY POCKET?
WILL IT FIT IN MY JACKETS POCKET!?
ETC...

EXAMPLE 2:WAS IT A HARD TEST?
WHAT WERE SOME ANSWER YOU REMEMBER?
WHATS A QUESTION YOU REMEMBER?
WAS IT A HARD ONE?
WHY?
DID YOU USE PEN?
CAN WE USE PEN?
WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU GOT?
WAS IT HARD?
WHY WAS IT HARD IN GENERAL?
WAS THERE AN ESSAY AT THE END?
WAS IT MULTIPLE CHOICE?
IF YOU'RE TELLING ME ALL OF THIS INFO. IS THAT CHEATING?
WAS IT HARD?!
WHY?
WAS IT HARD?!?!
WHAT COLOR PEN SHOULD I USE?
BLACK? WHY?
....WAS IT HARD?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Everyone seems to ask that god damn question!!! "was it hard" right when they're going to go take the damn test. Why would someone ask such a dumb question, it's not like it really matters anyway if you're about to take it, it's too late to study, too late to fake sick out of nowhere. It doesn't have any effect on you if you do know it's hard except for the fact that you panic when you take it if someone said it WAS hard... excuse me for this, it just pisses me off that people ask this question because they always ask it right after I take the test and they're about to, and it doesn't matter if it was hard or not if you're about to take it, you can't do anything about it!!!





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rion772 on 2005-12-15 18:45 ]</font>

[Bladehunter]

On 2005-12-15 06:34, Skorpius wrote:
1: A person becomes a 'master' by learning. It doesn't take any special abilities to just learn, anyone can do it.

2: The item database is not difficult to find. Not only is it located on the side bar that's visable on the main page, and forum index, but there is a guides link at the top of the page within each forum subdivision, and seen everywhere else beyond that. It doesn't take special abilities to find it.

3: What is OFC?



1: Yes, you become a "master" by learning, and how do you learn? By asking. Why do we go to school? To learn. Why do teachers encourage us to ask? To learn.
Starting to see where I'm going? Ofc (Of course) you can learn it all by yourself, but it's boring, hence why we ask. And think about this, if everyone was self-reliant, what would the world be like? Screw friends, we are self-reliant. Screw tech-support, we are self-reliant. Screw rules, we all know how to behave, we're self-reliant.

2: Read my post again. MORE people know what a forum is, but don't know what a database is. Everyone doesn't know good english.

3: Has already been answered, and the "F" is not for putting in random F-word. Simply OF Course.

[Skorpius]

Bladehunter, you just aren't getting it.

[Bladehunter]

-Seems like ranting is limited, ah well, enjoy...-

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bladehunter on 2005-12-16 06:23 ]</font>

[Maridia]

Well, instead of defending and trying to come up with reasons, you could just agree with the original topic. I'll defend people asking questions too, because I do it. However, that does not mean I don't also believe that yes, humans are less self-reliant. Stick to original idea. Plz. Kthx.

[Skorpius]

I ask for help often, too. But I attempt some kind of personal exploration, as well.

Take HTML, for example. I look up reference material and experiment, but if I want to specifically do something, I'll look at guides first then ask questions later. I don't constantly ask for help, that wouldn't teach me a damned thing. I attempt everything on my own first, and I only ask for help if I get stuck. I do not know how to fully utilize CSS, and I will not ask for any help because I have plenty of resource material to help teach me. If those fail, that's when I ask for assistance from others.

AND FOR THE OTHER HALF:

I usually know what I want when trying to design some kind of image for a wallpaper, or signature. If I don't know what I want, I either don't do it, or experiment on my own and see what comes up. If I come up with several different kinds of end products, I never ask someone "which should I use". I ask "which one is more pleasing to you and why", and their answer will usually influence my decision. It's not that they are deciding for me, it's that they might see certain things that I might not, and I would like them to point out what elements grab their attention. I might even go back and redesign another image based on their response.

[Bladehunter]

On 2005-12-16 17:30, Skorpius wrote:
I ask for help often, too. But I attempt some kind of personal exploration, as well.

Take HTML, for example. I look up reference material and experiment, but if I want to specifically do something, I'll look at guides first then ask questions later. I don't constantly ask for help, that wouldn't teach me a damned thing. I attempt everything on my own first, and I only ask for help if I get stuck. I do not know how to fully utilize CSS, and I will not ask for any help because I have plenty of resource material to help teach me. If those fail, that's when I ask for assistance from others.

AND FOR THE OTHER HALF:

I usually know what I want when trying to design some kind of image for a wallpaper, or signature. If I don't know what I want, I either don't do it, or experiment on my own and see what comes up. If I come up with several different kinds of end products, I never ask someone "which should I use". I ask "which one is more pleasing to you and why", and their answer will usually influence my decision. It's not that they are deciding for me, it's that they might see certain things that I might not, and I would like them to point out what elements grab their attention. I might even go back and redesign another image based on their response.



This gave me a whole different view of what you meant. What you speak of is a motivation to the question, not just mindless asking.

If lack of motivation is what you mean (or partially mean) then I agree wíth your arguements. The difference of asking for a second opinion rather than just asking someone to do it for you. As a perfect example we can take some of the chatters from Kodia~'s rant thread. They are not self-reliant, they rely on someone to do it all for them (In this case, they relied for Kodia~ to copy paste them a link to a homepage).

I also want to take this opportunity to apologize for my earlier behaviour. You were right, Scorp, I wasn't getting it.

[KaFKa]

On 2005-12-11 06:08, Skorpius wrote:


On 2005-12-11 05:49, KaFKa wrote:
OH MY FUCKING GOD SHUT UP

The topic has been dead for 2 days.


Topic is dead allright.

funny to see your still going around in circles.