You vote like a strategist? You vote like an idiot.

[KodiaX987]

Democracy is dead. Face it, it doesn't sound very democratic when you have no more than two parties to vote for and they are both known to be absolute crocks of shit.

And they get elected anyway!

So what caused that?

Let's look at the entire ballot right now. In USA, who was running for pres? Bush, Gore, and... and...? Oh, what's that name over here? Nader! Whoa, an underdog, who would've thought of that? Now look at the Canadian ballot. Who's on it? Liberals, Conservatives... and? Oh! Bloc, NDP and Green Party! Whoa! Three more parties snuck on the ballot, how did they do that? Do they seriously expect to win? You wouldn't vote for these losers, would you? Why waste your vote on them? Vote for a WORTHY party! One that can win! Besides, what would the neighborhood say if you voted for a party that wouldn't win the seat anyway? People would think you're stupid!

But then, the two major runners do suck. You vote for one, you're throwing the country into crisis. You vote for the other and the exact same thing happens! Damned if you do and damned if you don't! You know, on second thought, maybe you SHOULD waste your vote! No vote of yours is going to the sucky major runners! Ha! Besides, who cares which underdog you're going for? They aren't gonna win anyways so you can let your conscience in peace!


BULLSHIT.

If you took my above two paragraphs to the first degree, go eat a bottle of laxatives because you deserve the shit you're gonna be into.

Now on to the serious stuff.

People (that means you!) forget that politics isn't just a freakin' black-or-white question. How many times did I hear "I'll go waste my vote on Nader." or "You voted for Nader? That did nothing! Idiot!" Why didn't I give my mom a speech after hearing her say, no more than five minutes ago: "We can't vote for anybody else than the Bloc here - do otherwise and your vote will have accomplished nothing."

This is wrong on more levels than there are floors in the Citadel of Half-Life 2.

Let me recall what politics - especially elections - are: people run for office. You vote for the dude you believe fits the job best. Dude with the most votes wins the election. That's it that's all.

Now let me explain what politics - especially elections - are in the average society. You vote for the dude who seems the less sucky between the two major runners because everyone's voting for them and completely dwarf the other parties running for office, so you try to tip the scales in favor of the guy you hate the least.

You may not be aware of that, but everyone around you has had the same idea. What happens?

The country gets ruled by a complete idiot!

Everyone knows he's an idiot, everyone wishes he could just quit politics (and life for that matter) but everyone voted for him anyways. They didn't vote with their heart because they knew that the party they wanted to vote for would lose! The runner didn't even get his chance! No matter how much he works and the exposure and the publicity he goes for, nevermind, he is doomed to lose!

This means that, technically, I could run for office, manipulate the media into displaying that my main opponent is at rock bottom on the vote intentions, and I'd win with a staggering majority, no matter how competent (or incompetent) I really am.

Sounds like an impossible scenario? It can, and it does happen. Everyday, everywhere.

And I'm not talking about the people who don't even go vote. There are places where the participation rate is around 60 or 70%. Whoa! Imagine that! Imagine if the 30% that remained did go vote! 30% is a LOT of people. And it's more than enough to tip the scales in your favor. Who says that those who hadn't voted weren't all for one party in particular, and had they voted, that party they were rooting for wouldn't have crushed their opponents hands down? Huh? Who says that?

Get real and stop fucking around with the mentality that your vote needs to be "worthwhile". Vote for the party you want to see in the office. Even if he's in last place. Even if your vote is possibly the only one he'll ever get.

Because when people around you get to have the same idea, who knows? Maybe that underdog will win the next election? What would've people done had so many electors "wasted" their votes on Nader and got him elected? They'd shit their pants all right.

What would've happened had people voted for who they really believed in and ended up electing Nader? Then, and only THEN, would have we seen a fair and square election, and only THEN would people be able to say "I voted for him because I really thought he would do his job well," and not run around in a panic because they didn't expect that to happen, God forbid.

If you have a resemblance of an intellect. If you have at least one braincell remaining. If you know what's the answer to two plus two. If you can operate a pencil without accidentally killing yourself, then change your definition of a worthwhile vote and vote for the guy you want. A worthwhile vote is a honest vote. Never forget that.

[Ketchup345]

*Stands and claps* (this board should have a standing ovation smilie just for this post).

Very nice. I too hate the two party system. The US had more than 2 parties running in the last election (there was the Greens, Libertarians, a few different communist and socialist parties, and others).

Some states here make it difficult for other parties to even be on the ticket which is unfair, and Republicans and Democrats in some areas are automatically included. The voting system should be reformed so that either all parties have to follow the same process or all parties are automaticlly on the ballet assuming they have a candidate.

[Eihwaz]

Shuri, I love you. That post was completely brilliant.

The two-party system is pretty flawed, as it doesn't work if you try to cram all people into one of two parties. When I finally get old to vote, I sure as hell will be voting, and I'll be voting for who I think will do the best job president. It won't matter if my vote is the only vote he'll get; I'll vote for who I think deserves my vote.

[InfinityXXX]

*stands, then claps, then sits back down * Took the thoughts right out my brain.

[AUTO_]

Nader wouldn't have won even with the popular vote.

We could always give Communism a whirl.

[HAYABUSA-FMW-]

When you're voting for the "lesser of two evils" is there really a choice?

Heh, I don't even want to get into how political discussion brings out the worst in people.

My state had the craziest of things happen, ever.

Gov. Gray Davis was kicked out of office for incompetency and there was a makeshift election to hurry someone into his office.

As everyone knows, Arnold won, but the thing that scared me was that yes, anybody could have paid a small sum (maybe $200?) and entered themselves into the over 100 person candidacy for the Governor's job.

It was a huge late night talk show kinda joke seeing that Gallagher, Gary Coleman, Terrell Owens, Larry Flint, etc. were actually on a ballot and people actually voted for them.

What would have happened if everyone voted in one of these jokers?

Sure the democratic process would have worked to full effect but the circumstances made it all the more bizzarre.

Some people do feel that their vote will not matter any and forgo voting completely. I guess there's plenty of truth to that yet everyone should vote to help things become more equal rather than X or Y winning and Z being a joke for not even coming close.

Politics is a cutthroat, leave no prisoners type of exchange. For your sake just become as knowledgable about it as you can and don't vote on a whim or popular bandwagon demand.

[BWS-1]

Democracy in itself is flawed... what needs to change is the system itself.

Tonight on my way back from work I overheard a convo some ''we just turned 18 lolz! let's go vote omg'' young adults were having about all that crap. They were all talking ''strategy'' about how some shouldn't vote for a candidate since its sure he can't win; how you should vote for the one that has more chances of winning.

Damn, might as wall call in Fidel and ask him how to start a totalitarian system, looks like with that, they wouldn't complain. I'm sure a dictator would ''force'' things a little so that the majority, himself, will win. And once that the case, you're sure that if you have enough votes to crush your opponents, you can sit back, relax, and enjoy the show; watch as the lil puppet-heads go vote for you cause that's what they know will win, how they have no faith in anything else then the ''true dominating''*cough*perhaps not even opressing*cough* candidate which is you ... or him or her, whoever comes by and can charm 35%+ of the nation.

It's not like people will care if things are ''forced'' a lil ... I mean did they care much about the lobbying that has always been present in Washington for exemple? Eh, Jack Abramoff got caught, so what, there are quite a few like him and some better then him that have yet to be caught. People seem to either enjoy or not give a damn when they get stolen by political parties or a gouvernment in power, and when they DO care, well they just end up picking the ''lesser evil'' at the next election...

Just like the russians did back before WWII; if you weren't on the capitalist's side, you were to be on the fascist's. So our russian friends all kinda felt Hitler was wacked, and the Crash didn't help the image of Capitalism... what a lot thought as the ''lesser evil'' was Stalin and the ''Promising Communism'' he was to bring for his country, THE other choice (plot twist). And well ... you all know how it turned out.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BWS-1 on 2006-01-13 23:46 ]</font>

[Daikarin]

You know, votes DO make a difference, altough not in the sense you're probably wondering. The thing is, if only idiots made it to the top, then there's probably a lot more idiots among the population who helped him/her reach that far.

Don't blame the idiots in charge, blame the people. An idiot in charge wouldn't be standing there if it weren't for the support those bigger idiots gave him. And most people aren't really aware of the minimum reasons to vote for X or Y, they just do it for the sake of others who are voting, or for the sake of campaign, or for the sake of false promisses.

And even IF a citizen has the so called "ability to think by himself", most of the time that thought is headed the wrong way.

To vote is to piss against the wind.

[Niki]

I voted Nader. Twice.

*shrugs*

I'm heading to Canada soon, then Finland. Later, USA.

[navci]

Ya know.
I have always wondered if enough people think that "I won't vote for the lesser of the two evils, instead I will vote the communist for kicks."

If enough people do that.
What would happen? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

[BWS-1]

On 2006-01-18 23:34, navinator wrote:
Ya know.
I have always wondered if enough people think that "I won't vote for the lesser of the two evils, instead I will vote the communist for kicks."

If enough people do that.
What would happen? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif



The Utopia

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[HUnewearl_Meira]

Actually, I'd suspect that a big reason why only two parties typically get the bulk of the attention is because the vast majority of the minor political parties tend to have some awkward direction they're going in that most people either aren't worried about, or specifically don't worry about. Those that don't meet that criteria tend to have an even more derranged concept in mind. I don't think it should be any question why Lincoln Rockwell miserably failed in the 1964 election. The same can be said of John Rarick, of the American Independent Party (go ahead, look it up, it's title isn't so straight forward). Also consider the Family Values Party, which I understand is based entirely around one man's claim that God has spoken to him.

There are also at least two political parties that exist for the sole purpose of promoting the legalization of Marijuana, at least half a dozen parties sporting Socialist and Communist ideologies, and hell, even the KKK has its own party.

The simple fact is that the Republican and Democratic parties are the two major parties because they float relatively down the middle of the straits. Generally speaking, neither is an extreme in and of itself, and as a result, they are both major catch-alls for people who haven't come to the conclusion that they have a very specific agenda. It's not simply that no one is thinking for themselves. 3rd party candidates often do get quite a few votes, but the real competition will always be between the two that aren't running entirely for the benefit of special interest groups that only make up a very small percentage of our population. It's not typicallly because people don't want to "waste" their vote-- it's because people want to elect a candidate that's more concerned with solving economic & political problems than environmental problems that may or may not actually be serious.

[Zelutos]

I plan on voting, and on the ballot, i'm going to write "Democracy sucks! Communism all the way!"

[HUnewearl_Meira]

Or you can do what you're supposed to, and vote for the candidate with the most similar ideology to your own...

[Ketchup345]

On 2006-01-19 00:51, HUnewearl_Meira wrote:
Actually, I'd suspect that a big reason why only two parties typically get the bulk of the attention is because the vast majority of the minor political parties tend to have some awkward direction they're going in that most people either aren't worried about, or specifically don't worry about. Those that don't meet that criteria tend to have an even more derranged concept in mind. I don't think it should be any question why Lincoln Rockwell miserably failed in the 1964 election. The same can be said of John Rarick, of the American Independent Party (go ahead, look it up, it's title isn't so straight forward). Also consider the Family Values Party, which I understand is based entirely around one man's claim that God has spoken to him.

There are also at least two political parties that exist for the sole purpose of promoting the legalization of Marijuana, at least half a dozen parties sporting Socialist and Communist ideologies, and hell, even the KKK has its own party.

The simple fact is that the Republican and Democratic parties are the two major parties because they float relatively down the middle of the straits. Generally speaking, neither is an extreme in and of itself, and as a result, they are both major catch-alls for people who haven't come to the conclusion that they have a very specific agenda. It's not simply that no one is thinking for themselves. 3rd party candidates often do get quite a few votes, but the real competition will always be between the two that aren't running entirely for the benefit of special interest groups that only make up a very small percentage of our population. It's not typicallly because people don't want to "waste" their vote-- it's because people want to elect a candidate that's more concerned with solving economic & political problems than environmental problems that may or may not actually be serious.
That may be a part of it, but also I'm sure a majority of voters don't know anything about any candidates besides the two that everyone knows about. I'd say more people don't know anythign about the 3rd parties instead of having no 3rd party not reflect their views.

Some people also think the wrong thing about some 3rd parties. One example of this is probably the Green Party. Many people seem to think they (GP) only care about the environment, and have no other views; but in reality they have views on most, if not every, issue that Americans face (and I'm sure this goes for other countries as well).

3rd parties are often not allowed in televised debates and are generally ignored by the press.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2006-01-19 13:39 ]</font>

[navci]

On 2006-01-19 10:35, Ketchup345 wrote:
That may be a part of it, but also I'm sure a majority of voters don't know anything about any candidates besides the two that everyone knows about. I'd say more people don't know anythign about the 3rd parties instead of having no 3rd party not reflect their views.

Some people also know the wrong thing about some 3rd parties. One example of this is probably the Green Party. Many people seem to think they (GP) only cares about the environment, and have no other views; but in reality they have views on most, if not every, issue that Americans face (and I'm sure this goes for other countries as well).



I agree with what Ketchup says here. Having been a person that hasn't been entirely interested in political parties and such (since I am not eligible to vote, kinda almost no point with me getting involve into knowing everything). I actually didn't have much idea of other parties existing. I remember when Bush was running for president the first time, my friends went to this seminar/conference/talk thing given by the green party candidate (and this is in Canada). I was told that that man makes more sense than most of the politicians combined. However, I don't even remember his name. :< And of course he wasn't in the presdential debate. None of the small parties ever do.

So my point is. I guess people need to be more aware of what's out there before they go ahead to vote/not vote/eat your vote (which you will go to jail for, by the way). I just don't think enough people who are voting are doing that. :< Which I guess comes back to Shuri's point.

Ya.

[Zelutos]

On 2006-01-19 06:50, HUnewearl_Meira wrote:
Or you can do what you're supposed to, and vote for the candidate with the most similar ideology to your own...



I could do that, but i think that no single party represents me...at all. I'm a very complicated person when it comes to explaining my position in politics. I don't want to vote for any of the fools.

[ABDUR101]

On 2006-01-19 13:55, Zelutos wrote:
I could do that, but i think that no single party represents me...at all. I'm a very complicated person when it comes to explaining my position in politics. I don't want to vote for any of the fools.


No one will ever find someone to vote for, that entirely hits all of their personal marks. It's an impossibility, you're not going to find a candidate that matches or represents everything YOU stand for.

Thus, you vote between a douchebag and a shitsandwich.

[BWS-1]

On 2006-01-19 14:15, ABDUR101 wrote:
...you're not going to find a candidate that matches or represents everything YOU stand for.

Thus, you vote between a douchebag and a shitsandwich.



And there you have it. Pretty much the most accurate description of democracy. 2 thumbs up. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

It own's wikipedia's definition on so many levels

[Zelutos]

On 2006-01-19 14:15, ABDUR101 wrote:


On 2006-01-19 13:55, Zelutos wrote:
I could do that, but i think that no single party represents me...at all. I'm a very complicated person when it comes to explaining my position in politics. I don't want to vote for any of the fools.


No one will ever find someone to vote for, that entirely hits all of their personal marks. It's an impossibility, you're not going to find a candidate that matches or represents everything YOU stand for.

Thus, you vote between a douchebag and a shitsandwich.



Well either way, i'm still not going to vote. And if i have to, then i'll just spoil the ballot...perhaps by voting for someone from the FKL.

[Solstis]

Democracy? This ain't no stinkin' Democracy.

The Electoral College is one of the dumbest systems in all of creation. Might as well use a freakin' dartboard.

[opaopajr]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif wow, this didn't turn into a pointless flamewar, but actually remained a cohegent rant on the modern state of american disenfranchisement and representation by their public servants! i'm stunned! and on pso world, no less! wow!

good going guys! keep it up!

fyi, the big issue is corruption and big money lobbying. before it was a pretty crappy system of multi-party system where only 2 could be viable via equal splitting of the lobbying dollars, and essentially ending up with most reps being 'influenced.' but lately, as per the dirt coming out of K street, it seems the past decade or so has turned into a single party holding court by promising lobbyist lock-outs of the reigning party's halls of power if they don't start drying up their money for the other party.

well, money being crucial to the all-powerful media (with apparently giant sway over the weak-minded) to buy air time, and all american media essentially being owned by 6 major corporations, and these big corporations having *huge* amounts of contracts and money at stake in these political halls of power, the natural thing to do when listening to the party that currently holds power is to... work with them. thus complete media blackout of incredibly important stories for the ever popular "white woman in danger!" fluff piece. remember, if no one knows, no one can care, and if i can control what you can know, i control you. so, the 4th estate has failed us in epic proportions.

real campaign finance reform is needed to nip a good portion of this malaise in the bud. i'd be perfectly down on set block o' gov't funds to be divided evenly among the parties contending and regulations on media banning 30-sec useless political ad spots in favor of more open forum discussions and freely televised debates. nip the reason needed for so much money, and nip the access to potentially too much 'access' via excessive contributions, and you are well on your way to having the people have a strong voice.

but, needless to say, i'm just waiting for the comment saying i'm a commie pinko dirtbag, and i don't understand that i'm advocating for total censorship, and freedom isn't free... or some shit. meh, whatever, i'll wear the commie pinko dirtbag label with pride now, considering the current path advocated in opposition is pretty much the path marching our nation into destruction (which is pretty apparent to people noticing several constitutional, economic, and diplomatic indicators). hand me some vodka, olive drab suit, and a little red book, i feel like making poor man cosmopolitans.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif