Who believes in Jesus???

[Delfi]

After readin through the Da vinci code thread i was just wondering how many of you actually believe in Jesus/god line of events..
Personally I dont..believe in Jesus/God.

It seems we have 2 different stories of where humans came from...

Story 1...(Scientific) WE evolved from apes.
Story 2...(Religious) God made everything he said let there be light and so on and eventually made adam and built eve outta mud they sinned yet he allowed them to reproduce an entire planets worth of people.

So I was just wondering where the rest of you stand on this issue.

[Skuda]

I roll with whatever hits me. Sure, Jesus may have existed. God may exist too. So may Zeus and Thor and Buddha. I'm just going to wait till the afterlife (if there is one) and be suprised with what I get.

[PJ]

I'm religious, so yeah, I do.

[Skorpius]

Actually, the science is that Humans and Apes have a common ancestor.

Religion is fiction. Stories that are told to teach you lessons of morality. God is a personification of positive energy; love, hope, care, etc. Satan is a personification of negative energy; hate, greed, jealousy, etc. With the stories told within the many Biblical books, you're taught to embrace God (positive energy) and not succumb to the seduction of Evil (negative energy). So, I'd be in the middle ground, to anser the question.

I just wish more people understood this, though. It would make the world a much better place if people kept this mentality instead of taking the stories literally.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/Skorpius/resistflame.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skorpius on 2006-05-23 04:44 ]</font>

[Saiffy]

I believe in God, Jesus, a lot of things in the Bible. I do not believe in rules of how to run my mortal life. I could go into more detail as to what I mean, but it's not that important to anyone besides me.

I go to church pretty much every Sunday to listen to everything, but I choose what to take seriously.

I also must be the only Christian to believe evolution and religion can co-exist as one >_>;

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saiffy on 2006-05-23 05:57 ]</font>

[GrumblyStuff]

On 2006-05-23 04:25, Skorpius wrote:
Religion is fiction.
Ha. Too true.

But to be more apt, it's a bastion for the willingly ignorant. I mean, what's the difference between attributing thunder and lightning to Zeus and saying we've been Intelligently Designed?

[edit]Hmm. I suppose my stance is obvious.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GrumblyStuff on 2006-05-23 07:24 ]</font>

[Daikarin]

I believe in my own version of things, which I have researched. I was never with the belief in something without questioning it - And the church leaves many things unanswered, as well as the Bible.

I do believe in Jesus, but I don't believe in many things that are said about him.

[Delfi]

I was kinda thinking along the lins that bible was made as early day entertainment - i mean no tvs no video games life mustve really sucked back then so i guess writing was a good way to pass the time of day, also i strongly believe that the bible especially the ten commandments were made up so that people would be more civilised to each other, kinda like an early version of the police - if u do bad things then bad things will happen to u so dont do them - is kinda what the bible says isnt it?
Another thing i never really understood is how all them people in the beginning of the old testament could live for hundreds of years? and now we can not lol.

[astuarlen]

On 2006-05-23 05:49, Saiffy wrote:

I also must be the only Christian to believe evolution and religion can co-exist as one >_>;



You're not the only one, rest assured. Hell, even the last pope said that he saw no inherent contradiction. It surely varies by denomination, but many Catholics I know (having attending a Catholic high school, I know several http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif), including those of an older generation, have no trouble accepting scientific teachings alongside religious teachings in this and other matters. In fact, it was not once suggested to us by any of our teachers that straight creationism was a valid explanation for man's physical origins. Anyway, just wanted to put in a good word for my non-fundamentalist brothers and sisters. ;>

As for myself, I will admit to theism on my most spiritual days and a delicious layer cake of skepticism, apathy, and icecream besides. The universe is like Transformers; no, not "robots in disguise", but "more than meets the eye". So I'm neither religious nor violently antireligious. I guess I can't bring myself to care enough. ;v

Oyeah, edit: There is a difference between reading religious texts such as the Bible literally and contextually. Again, I cannot generalize as to the practices/preferences of other religions, but during my Catholic schoolgirl career, everything we were told or we read endorsed contextualism--reading the Bible as a non-literal source of truth. Thus, despite being nonreligious, I find it irksome that one might assume that all religions or denominations approach religious text/teaching as literal dogma, thereby implying two things: religious people are fools (or fanatics) and religion is devoid of value spiritually and/or factually because, "lol, it says that Methuselah guy lived a bajillion years" or some such silliness. Aaaanywho...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astuarlen on 2006-05-23 08:14 ]</font>

[Solstis]

I'm an apathetic agnostic. I only get riled up when faced by super conservatives or super atheists. Blech.

[ABDUR101]

On 2006-05-23 07:59, Solstis wrote:
I'm an apathetic agnostic. I only get riled up when faced by super conservatives or super atheists. Blech.


Yup. That sums it up rather nicely.

[Tystys]

I believe in Jesus.
He's my homey.
Atleast that's what my shirt says

[navci]

On 2006-05-23 07:56, astuarlen wrote:

Oyeah, edit: There is a difference between reading religious texts such as the Bible literally and contextually. Again, I cannot generalize as to the practices/preferences of other religions, but during my Catholic schoolgirl career, everything we were told or we read endorsed contextualism--reading the Bible as a non-literal source of truth. Thus, despite being nonreligious, I find it irksome that one might assume that all religions or denominations approach religious text/teaching as literal dogma, thereby implying two things: religious people are fools (or fanatics) and religion is devoid of value spiritually and/or factually because, "lol, it says that Methuselah guy lived a bajillion years" or some such silliness. Aaaanywho...


I was a Catholic school girl too. Forced to attend class about Bible and got tested on it as such. That being said, if there is only one thing I have learned from those classes, that is: it is really open to interpretation. You can pretty much make it say whatever the hell you want.

Yes. Erm. So.
Solly summed it up. Stupid smart Solly.

[washuguy]

Yup, all my life. Most of it any way! Although I'm still not done with the bible...

[RivaOni]

My opinion is that Jesus existed, but not in the way we see him. I dont believe he was the son of "god" but that he was similar to these people who create their own cults, only this one took off in a huge way.

"He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RivaOni on 2006-05-23 11:29 ]</font>

[Pillan]

Well, I fit into both the "devout Christian" and "strong scientist" categories. There really isn't any overlap and there never will be unless God decides to say otherwise.

Evolution, like all creation theories, still has its gaps. I'm sure you've all heard of the missing link between humans and apes. I, on the other hand, am far more interested in the links between micelles, bacteria, and viruses. Other than that little hole, the theory has been amended enough to be a valid formula that could generate life as we know it.

My stance on how things were created will always remain "I don't know and I'll never care to figure it out". Could the universe be the consequence of other dimensions randomly crashing into each other? Sure, but where did those other dimensions come from? Could everything exist because God wanted it to? Why not, but where did God come from?

So, in the end, the science of creation will remain as verifiable as any other belief with no research whatsoever. You could argue the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it and be just correct. You could even put science and religion together to argue that the "random floating extra dimensions" are God.

The other argument that seemed to come up a lot on this page was something about the inaccuracies of the Bible. Unfortunately, given the passage of time, lack of multiple sources of documentation, and all those other things that make anything that happened prior to the 1800s incredibly difficult to verify (except in a few countries in Asia which you've probably all learned about, but even that can be argued against with the "one source isn't enough" mentality), so you can argue it either way. That, of course, is ignoring the five or so events that can be labeled as "irrational" (creation, Noah's Ark, parting the water mislabeled the Red Sea, Jesus’ miracles, and the latter two thirds of Revelations). I'm not going to argue for or against those parts as they're just as verifiable as the existence of mankind.

Of course anyone can argue anything logically, so just choose whichever one you want to know.



On 2006-05-23 04:25, Skorpius wrote:
I just wish more people understood this, though. It would make the world a much better place if people kept this mentality instead of taking the stories literally.


Do you really think a world void of devout religious men would be a better place? There's always the other solution to that equation which simply states "man will fight whenever he sees a difference", implying that with religion gone we'll just kill each other over something equally stupid. But, then again, predicting how that would turn out is about as easy as predicting what the world's economy will look like in 2000 years.

[sprky585]

i believe in him, hes the messiah...nuff said

[CupOfCoffee]

I believe Jesus was a real person who lived around 2000 years ago, and that even if he was not truly the son of God and an immortal, that what he has become through legend and gospel is everything he stood for in the first place anyway. I won't say that organized Christianity as a whole has done its part to make sure that Jesus' ideals were followed very well (forgiving everybody, turning the other cheek, loving the sinner but not the sin, etc), but I believe that the majority of the things the man pushed were worthwhile human traits that strived to make the world a better place.

Long story short, I'm not very religious nor am I absolutely sure if Jesus was the real deal, but I do what I can to observe and follow his peaceful teachings about love and harmony and all that crap. It's just unfortunate that the Bible is so old and so much of its original content has been altered or alltogether lost in translation--otherwise we could have a much clearer picture of who Jesus was and what exactly he was all about.

[Eihwaz]

I believe that he existed, but I don't think he was the son of God. I'm basically agnostic.

[Mewn]

I believe in him, and in evolution. Doesn't make it the truth, but really, no-one living knows the truth about God, and those who think they do (on either side of the divide) are kidding themselves.

Believe what you want, as long as you don't insult me because of what I believe, or attempt to claim as fact that what I believe is 'fiction', I'm cool with it.

[Neith]

I'm of the belief that I don't necessarily believe in Jesus, but I can't exactly disprove any of it either. To be honest, I don't care. Whatever happened happened as far as I'm concerned.

[Logical2u]

We can't exactly say either way that beliefs are founded.

There are wonderful things that happen without scientific basis (That have formed the backbone of some "religions"), but there are also things that have proven that even with "intelligent" design, Life would still exist.

It'd be great to think that God exists (And since I'm Christian, all that other stuff 'bout Jesus is true). There are benefits to this, and drawbacks.
But it's also sometimes too scary to believe that a higher power doesn't exist. It means that our life is huge series of vast coincidences, and that there is equal punishment for the good hearted and the evil hearted.
It's also scary to believe that a higher power DOES exist. It means that evil hearts could be punished, or that you aren't "worthy". It means that something has been guiding us for ages.

Now, I believe in God, and Jesus, for the most part, but I don't exactly believe in the Bible. Written two thousand years ago?
They were handwritten?
Revelations has a disclaimer that says "Don't edit me like the rest of the bible!"?
There are other sects that write things and we find now?

Well, that's a little shaking.

But don't use the Da Vinci code as an excuse to not believe in God.
A book of fiction designed to be controversial isn't exactly good faith.

At the least, attend a church service, or talk to someone. Find out on your own terms through something that you can relate to.

-Logical2u

[Jive18]

On 2006-05-23 03:14, Skuda wrote:
I roll with whatever hits me. Sure, Jesus may have existed. God may exist too. So may Zeus and Thor and Buddha. I'm just going to wait till the afterlife (if there is one) and be suprised with what I get.



This is completely how I feel. Everything's fair game until I take a dirt nap.

[Wyndham]

On 2006-05-23 11:32, sprky585 wrote:
i believe in him, hes the messiah...nuff said


agreed.

[Eros17]

On 2006-05-23 02:43, Delfi wrote:
After readin through the Da vinci code thread i was just wondering how many of you actually believe in Jesus/god line of events..
Personally I dont..believe in Jesus/God.



Not I said the pie

[Hrigg]

On 2006-05-23 07:59, Solstis wrote:
I'm an apathetic agnostic. I only get riled up when faced by super conservatives or super atheists. Blech.



I agree with that.

[Delfi]

On 2006-05-23 13:46, Logical2u wrote:
But don't use the Da Vinci code as an excuse to not believe in God.
A book of fiction designed to be controversial isn't exactly good faith.


I didnt use the da vinci code as a base of my beliefs, i never read this book and ive not seen the movie either. I used to attend church when i was much younger on a regular basis.
I just find it hard to believe that the bible starts with "in the beginning there was nothing, then god said let there be water land and light" or something to this effect - but no where does the bible say "god said let there be dinosaurs" - which in my opinion means the bible is fake as we all KNOW that dinosaurs roamed the planet long before humans did.

Some1 said they dont believe Jesus is the son of god - oh god no - jesus was an immaculate birth - this means technically speaking he DID NOT have a father. Although i think most people wuold be happy to say that joseph the carpenter played this role.

I honestly dont believe there is a heaven or a hell either, i think this is just old fashioned to modern day SCARE MONGERING.And i believe that most the church services are mainly aimed at tryin to help us come to terms with the loss when loved ones die and to try to stop everyone doing something silly - u know like people wuold if they thought they lived and then there was nothing.
However i do believe strongly in an afterlife - although what happens is anyones guess, i dont think it contains pearly gates though.

And someone else mentioned the bible was written in asian countried probably in hebrew - but am i the only one who finds it a little strange that the scriptures the bible originated from come from lands which contain hebrews and muslims who mainly worship allah instead of god??


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Delfi on 2006-05-23 15:47 ]</font>

[rena-ko]

christianism, muslimism and judaism are identical - they're all revolving around jerusalem, all three monotheistic religions claim that city to be their holy place. its really just different names, different languages and over time different interpretations of the same initial tale.

my personal idea? i believe in chaos and randomness as science proved. i believe in humanism concerning humans, i believe being careful with what we lent concerning environmental questions.

[Pillan]

On 2006-05-23 16:03, rena-ko wrote:
christianism, muslimism and judaism are identical - they're all revolving around jerusalem, all three monotheistic religions claim that city to be their holy place. its really just different names, different languages and over time different interpretations of the same initial tale.


That's as valid as classifying jazz, rock, and rap music in the same genre. They're all based upon the same concept, but formed radically different cultures.

[Shigecki]

On 2006-05-23 15:44, Delfi wrote:
And someone else mentioned the bible was written in asian countried probably in hebrew - but am i the only one who finds it a little strange that the scriptures the bible originated from come from lands which contain hebrews and muslims who mainly worship allah instead of god??



Allah, Tetragrammaton, YHMH, God are all the same thing, just called by different names in different religions.

Edit: Moses brought The Torah down from Mt. Sinai. Moses was a hebrew.



On 2006-05-23 16:03, rena-ko wrote:
christianismty, muslimism Islam and judaism are identical - they're all revolving around jerusalem, all three monotheistic religions claim that city to be their holy place. its really just different names, different languages and over time different interpretations of the same initial tale.



The only real thing these religions share are the belief in the same god, and they all have their roots from Abraham.

Mecca is the holy city of Muslims, Muhammad made his night journey to heaven from Jerusalem, and is the site of the Dome of the Rock and is considered a place of spirituality to Muslims. At first to get Jews to comform to their religions, Muslims did pray facing Jerusalem, but was changed to facing Mecca. They also make their pilgrimage to Mecca, their holy city.

Christains believe Jesus to be their Messiah, Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, and Muslins and Jews don't believe God has or will ever take human form. Only Christains believe in the Trinity. Jesus does play a big role in two of them, Christianity and Islam, but nothing in Judaism. Judaisn and Christianity believe in the Ten Commandments, but Jews don't believe the New Testaments are Divinely inspired. Other then God, the only thing all three religions really share is their commitment to monotheism.

Anyway, I believe Jesus did exist. The only problem I have with the belief in Christianity is that the only record we have of Jesus is the New Testament, a book written by his followers about the leader of their religion.

Because of this I'm not so sure about him being divine or perfect, God in human form. I don't really concern myself with that. I would have to say I'm a borderline humanist/agnostic who likes the ideas and followings of Hinduism. How's that for confusing.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shigecki on 2006-05-23 17:05 ]</font>

[REJ-]

Meh, to each his own

I'm surprised there hasn't been any religious flaming yet. Is it a coincidence or a miracle?

[Luis]

I belive in god and i belive in jesus, he has prove to me a lot of thing but i must have a lot of faith, before he show me and i belive thats the test he want.

i dont see the point of some people wanted some prove, because he want your faith on him, not the inverse having him to show you some prove to get your faith, thats not the way he works.

For sure when you got your heart full of good feelings, your life is a lot better, than the other way.

I did not need a prove of him to have faith, but i did have nothing but a miracle after i made a promise to him.

[Eros17]

On 2006-05-23 18:20, REJ- wrote:
Meh, to each his own

I'm surprised there hasn't been any religious flaming yet. Is it a coincidence or a miracle?



All religions are the same in essence calling for peace love and brotherhood. It's just everybody's prejudics against eachother that split them into multiple religions and make them a**holes to eachother. I think this kind of defeats the formentioned purpose of religion. In my opinion religion isn't knowing why we're here. It's making the best of it for ourselves and others while all the time asking questions and answering eachother's.

[Delfi]

really? would you mind sharing with us the details of this miracle ? If not then it doesnt matter but i am kinda intrigued by what you wrote.

[InfinityXXX]

In my whole life I only been to church 3 times and I was invited. I think there was a person named Jesus but I am very skeptic of the bible and its stories (I'll like to see someone split a sea open now a days) but I believe in the bible and I believe in that there is a God. I am open minded to almost all religons.(xcept scientology...maybe its because its to commercialized) I dunno whatever religon this God may be associated with but I believe in him.

[REJ-]

Hey, I believe in Jesus. He's proven himself to be real so I'm cool with that.I'm not gonna argue my faith to anyone, cause it won't do anything but start a religious flame war (which has happened before). So, like I said, To each his own.

There's nothing you can lose by simply believing in Jesus, and telling others about your faith.

On the other hand, there's nothing you can gain by trying to convert anyone by convincing them with logical arguements and proof that what you believe in is the right thing.

All you can do is show them the door, it's up to them to walk through it.

[Zelutos]

Nope. I sure don't.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zelutos on 2006-05-23 20:58 ]</font>

[HUnewearl_Meira]

Bleh... I don't really want to read this whole thing... But this is one of those subjects that I just can't let go ignored.

The debate over Science and Creation Ex Nihilo is a terribly confused jumble of mess that I don't expect will ever be properly sorted out. I can specify a couple of facts, though.

1. People are stupid, and so are their doctrines. Learning some of the things I've learned about the history of Christian religions, if there's one thing I can tell you right off the bat, it's that even the most hardcore of Bible-thumpers doesn't really understand a damned thing about what they're thumping.


2. People are stupid, and so are their assumptions. Evolution is a mind bogglingly complicated process that is entirely hampered by drastic difficulties, and while it's really not unreasonably hard to prove that it is indeed possible, the one thing that we may never be able to prove is that is in fact does happen. We can cite an example of a tropical fish that spawned a new sub-species that has no eyes where once there were, and you might think that proves evolution, but in fact that proves that a creature can lose a feature in an inbred mutation, and provided this doesn't cause a problem for survival in its environment, it will subsequently pass this mutant traight on to further generations. What it fails to prove is that a creature can mutate an entirely new system that makes it a slightly more complicated organism as well as improving its odds of survival.

So neither view actually works without a bit of faith. Something that I find somewhat amusing is that Evolution in fact becomes quite a bit more reasonable if you account for a manner of divine guidance to compensate for the absurd obstacles of improbability that Evolution is forced to deal with.

Dealing with the theological side of this argument... It's amazing what is generally misunderstood, not only by religion's chief critics, but quite shamefully, and perhaps more importantly, by its cheif supporters. Just little things with huge impacts, such as, for example, the book of Genesis says that God created the world in 6 days, but what isn't generally understood is that the Hebrew word translated as "day" in fact refers to "the period of time necessary to complete a task," or that is to say, the length of time required to complete a day's work. Furthermore, for the majority of the length of time the Creation took place in, as described, the length of a "day" as we know it, was entirely undefined, so I really hesitate to insist that the entirety of Creation was assembled in a 144 hour period. The semantics probably aren't important anyway, however, seeing as the majority of the book of Genesis was written in a Hebraic poetic prose. The simple point of the first chapter of Genesis is that however the world and the universe around it came about, God is somehow responsible for it.


In that vein, my argument for athiests devoutly believing in the non-existence of any sort of god goes something like this:

You believe that life originated, essentially by the persistence of Time. Well, the God that I believe in incorporates Time in His being, as well as the control over random chance you need to make your view work.

My view of God is not an old man standing on a cloud, overseeing the events of the world. He's a far more complicated being that exists not as a singularly identifiable entity, but as an encompassing entity coming together from multiple sources.

So believe in what you want, but that's the way I see it.

Really, to explain the way I see the whole picture would go far beyond the scope of what I'm talking about here, as well as require more effort than I'm really willing to employ, here. Let it suffice to say that both sides have a long history of being wrong, and in deciding where the world came from, it's probably best to accept that we don't really know, and we probably never will. Regardless of how much we learn about the universe, there will inescapably be more that we are unaware of than we can ever learn. Otherwise put, there's a lot we don't understand, and to even assume that we can even begin to have enough understanding to figure out where we came from is rather ambitious, to be polite.

So don't sweat the petty-- pet the sweaty.

[Luis]

It is true in what you said, i certanly see belive that my religion hide a lot of details of what happened before, but thats our human race, and from the way i see it, i dont trust 100% on Adam and Eve, it may have some other meaning but not the one that we all know.

But from what i know when you hurt, steal, lie, hit or kill somebody thats something it WILL RETURN to you in some other way, but its going to be they way that more hurts you.

Talking about the person who ask me about what kind of miracle, i dont like to give a lot of details but was all about a heart problem with my 1 year baby.

[Charmander02]

I believe in Jesus.

I guess you could say im more that just a person that says ' Yeah, i believe in God ' But i little less than a devout Christian.

I dunnno, that's how i see myself as a Christian but others might say different about me.

[Sgt_Shligger]

I believe in God and Jesus. I have not read much of the bible and have not gone to church for awhile but I still know my faith.

I am really not in the mood for an argument about religion because both sides lack rock solid evidence to prove their faith... which is why it is called faith. The biggest problem I have is arguing with people that there is an afterlife. We have no profe of it but there is no way we are on this Earth just for the sake of dying. There is more to it than that... I have thought about a lot, about how the world works and my conciousness. We have thoughts and everything but what makes this all real? The only thing that truly makes this relality is our own perception of it and that perception has to have a base which is faith.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SgtShligger on 2006-05-24 13:54 ]</font>

[jkrox4eva]

its as easy as said as done.
no

[REJ-]

There's a way for Religion and evolution to co-exist:

Like Meira said, a "day" could be any amount of time.

The universe is 35 M/Billion (can't remember if it was million or billion) years old. The six "days" could have been 7 M/Billion years each, then we get another 7M/Billion to evolve.

Yea, it sounds retarded. Too much thinking going on...

[Delfi]

Well if there was nothing in the beginning where on earth (pardon the pun) did this so called GOD get the materials to make the planet - or was he a magician ? lol - i mean come on theres gotta several zillion billion million blades of greass earth magma and so on that go into makin a planet - if he was a magician then i take my hat off to him and say eat your heart out david blane lol


And the thing which leads to disbelieve in GOD more than anything is - this fact - Who was around to see him create the planet to be able to write about it? sorry it just dont add up.http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Delfi on 2006-05-24 18:15 ]</font>

[Pillan]

On 2006-05-24 17:58, REJ- wrote:
There's a way for Religion and evolution to co-exist:

Like Meira said, a "day" could be any amount of time.

The universe is 35 M/Billion (can't remember if it was million or billion) years old. The six "days" could have been 7 M/Billion years each, then we get another 7M/Billion to evolve.

Yea, it sounds retarded. Too much thinking going on...



We've all heard of the theory of relativity (specifically, time dilation). If God moved at a large enough fraction of the speed of light, then a few hundred billion years would pass in a day. Slow down a bit and then a few hundred million years will pass in another day.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2006-05-24 19:23 ]</font>

[Shigecki]

What a day is to you and me may not be even close to what a day is to God. God has no beginning and no end. God is timeless.



On 2006-05-24 18:13, Delfi wrote:
And the thing which leads to disbelieve in GOD more than anything is - this fact - Who was around to see him create the planet to be able to write about it? sorry it just dont add up.http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif





On 2006-05-23 16:56, Shigecki wrote:
Edit: Moses brought The Torah down from Mt. Sinai. Moses was a hebrew.



The Torah is what Christains call the Old Testaments. This contains Genesis which explains creation. It was given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. This is where faith comes into play in religion, none of this can be proved.

I don't feel there is any value in proving the existence of God. Even if someone did come up with dead solid proof, there would still be non-believers. The most important thing in ones relationship with God is faith. Once it is proven that God exists there is no need for faith. Faith is the strongest relationship a person can have with God. This is taken away with proof. It would be knowing and that is why someone follows. Knowing God existed may even take away religion altogether, because there would be no need for faith. I not only believe there is no true value in knowing for sure, but it is necessary for most religions to not have proof that God exists.

Even the most true believer may have doubts.

[Delfi]

On 2006-05-24 19:59, Shigecki wrote:
What a day is to you and me may not be even close to what a day is to God. God has no beginning and no end. God is timeless.


http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif obviously - 1 day= 1 full planetary revolution, but if there is no planet to revolve - then wot is the meaning of a day ?

Also - if it is a case that 1 of gods says are longer than ours then surely that would mean his year was longer also - and that the people in the beginning of the bible must have been super human to have lived for hundreds of years.

And who said WE needed anti ageing cream ?lol



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Delfi on 2006-05-25 03:16 ]</font>

[Jozon]

It's a lot harder to control the masses without some common factor to fear them into doing something, or acting a certain way. If everyone though there was 0 consequences in the afterlife, then they wouldn't have inhibitions, and they would go on killing-spree's just because they can, fearing no "eternal damnation".

I'm only a christian around certain family members, since it's almost required(glad I don't see them a lot) since they'll kinda be asses if your not one, I hate overly-religious people.

[Jozon]

On 2006-05-24 19:59, Shigecki wrote:
What a day is to you and me may not be even close to what a day is to God. God has no beginning and no end. God is timeless.



On 2006-05-24 18:13, Delfi wrote:
And the thing which leads to disbelieve in GOD more than anything is - this fact - Who was around to see him create the planet to be able to write about it? sorry it just dont add up.http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif





On 2006-05-23 16:56, Shigecki wrote:
Edit: Moses brought The Torah down from Mt. Sinai. Moses was a hebrew.



The Torah is what Christains call the Old Testaments. This contains Genesis which explains creation. It was given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. This is where faith comes into play in religion, none of this can be proved.

I don't feel there is any value in proving the existence of God. Even if someone did come up with dead solid proof, there would still be non-believers. The most important thing in ones relationship with God is faith. Once it is proven that God exists there is no need for faith. Faith is the strongest relationship a person can have with God. This is taken away with proof. It would be knowing and that is why someone follows. Knowing God existed may even take away religion altogether, because there would be no need for faith. I not only believe there is no true value in knowing for sure, but it is necessary for most religions to not have proof that God exists.

Even the most true believer may have doubts.



Isn't faith a very easy way to make people believe a pack of lies, skewed by time? If hell wasn't an issue, a lot of christians wouldn't be christians, because hell is what almost "forces" faith on you, since faith in god, is tied to believing lack of faith equals eternal punishment in some of the worst ways.

If god was so forgiving he wouldn't punish people in such horrific ways, babies who are unbaptised go to limbo, wtf is that about, they can't baptise themselves so why would they go to a place filled with sadness. I find it ridicuous how they think he is just in one way, and then all about wrath, fire and brimstone in another. It's almost saying god is a scizhofrensic(sp?), that he is all happy and good, and then lays the smackdown on man every few billion years or so.

[astuarlen]

On 2006-05-25 03:24, Jozon wrote:
It's a lot harder to control the masses without some common factor to fear them into doing something, or acting a certain way. If everyone though there was 0 consequences in the afterlife, then they wouldn't have inhibitions, and they would go on killing-spree's just because they can, fearing no "eternal damnation".


Right, because atheists go on killing sprees all the time. Don't you? There are a few things standing in the way of absolute mayhem aside from the "threat of eternal damnation". Like, conscience or morality or fear of man's laws, which I would say are probably more immediate concerns than the afterlife in many people's minds.
Not to mention the fact that not all religions include any significant concept of an afterlife, let alone a heaven-hell dichotomy. "Hell" may feature in some religions or sects but clearly not in all; not even all Christians believe in the typical "fire-and-brimstone" destination for unrepentent sinners.


Isn't faith a very easy way to make people believe a pack of lies, skewed by time? If hell wasn't an issue, a lot of christians wouldn't be christians, because hell is what almost "forces" faith on you, since faith in god, is tied to believing lack of faith equals eternal punishment in some of the worst ways.

I don't think a healthy faith is a "very easy" thing to have. It's easy to accept only what you see before you, which is not to say that that's wrong. But faith doesn't automatically make you a zombie, willingly slopping up anything put in your way; people of faith typically retain their reason and common sense. And, I believe, maintaining a sincere and active faith is a struggle, though that doesn't make it any better or worse than skepticism.
I wonder, too, whether a person, lacking faith in god--or, more accurately, the literal God put forth in the Bible--would have cause to believe in a fiery hell?
Anyway, that's enough for now.
Damn Internet discussions soaking up my time. QQ I put too much effort into these things.

[Maridia]

On 2006-05-23 03:14, Skuda wrote:
I roll with whatever hits me. Sure, Jesus may have existed. God may exist too. So may Zeus and Thor and Buddha. I'm just going to wait till the afterlife (if there is one) and be suprised with what I get.



That's kind of how I feel on the subject as well, though looking at Skorp's post, that makes a lot more sense. Something to adopt and take to heart. It's difficult to know what to believe nowadays. Especially when people are torn between everything.

[Jozon]

On 2006-05-25 08:02, astuarlen wrote:


On 2006-05-25 03:24, Jozon wrote:
It's a lot harder to control the masses without some common factor to fear them into doing something, or acting a certain way. If everyone though there was 0 consequences in the afterlife, then they wouldn't have inhibitions, and they would go on killing-spree's just because they can, fearing no "eternal damnation".


Right, because atheists go on killing sprees all the time. Don't you? There are a few things standing in the way of absolute mayhem aside from the "threat of eternal damnation". Like, conscience or morality or fear of man's laws, which I would say are probably more immediate concerns than the afterlife in many people's minds.
Not to mention the fact that not all religions include any significant concept of an afterlife, let alone a heaven-hell dichotomy. "Hell" may feature in some religions or sects but clearly not in all; not even all Christians believe in the typical "fire-and-brimstone" destination for unrepentent sinners.


Isn't faith a very easy way to make people believe a pack of lies, skewed by time? If hell wasn't an issue, a lot of christians wouldn't be christians, because hell is what almost "forces" faith on you, since faith in god, is tied to believing lack of faith equals eternal punishment in some of the worst ways.

I don't think a healthy faith is a "very easy" thing to have. It's easy to accept only what you see before you, which is not to say that that's wrong. But faith doesn't automatically make you a zombie, willingly slopping up anything put in your way; people of faith typically retain their reason and common sense. And, I believe, maintaining a sincere and active faith is a struggle, though that doesn't make it any better or worse than skepticism.
I wonder, too, whether a person, lacking faith in god--or, more accurately, the literal God put forth in the Bible--would have cause to believe in a fiery hell?
Anyway, that's enough for now.
Damn Internet discussions soaking up my time. QQ I put too much effort into these things.



Good point, altough most of man's laws, were based of of "god's laws" so without god's laws, man's laws wouldn't really be there, at least in the U.S., laws are meant to keep you in-line, and religion just makes it easier to do so. The only reason keeping people from doing whatever they want is the fear of retaliation from another source of "power" albiet it government, law enforcement, or god.

Look at disasters, some people start looting, killing, etc. because nothing can really stop them, since authority is non-present, that means they have no fears of punishment. Humans have been taught you are marginally rewarded for good, and severely punished for evil(if you get caught), but on the flipside you get a lot more out of doing bad(in certain circumstances) than doing good.

If you wanted a bigscreen, you could work for a few months(assuming a decent payrate) or you could steal it. Yes, stealing is quicker and definitely cheaper(it's free) but the thing about it is, prison, A** r*****, and other horrible things, including death can occur.

In the absence of these restraints some don't listen to morales, or common sense. Now some people don't do that because of morales, religion, upbringing, but if you don't have some sort of restraint keeping you from doing something, and no fear of recourse by anything, then people do wrong.

This isn't saying all people would do this, but some do, there is no way to know what's going through people's minds when they decide not to do something, or do something.

[Inazuma]

no i dont believe in jesus b/c i am smart enough to know he is just another made up character. he is no different than the easter bunny or the tooth fairy.

i have a theory on how religion started:

people were always wondering how we got here, how everything started, whats the meaning of life, etc. well, some very clever men saw a chance to make some money. they made up some stories about heaven/hell, god/satan and claimed they had the answers that everyone wanted. well, needless to say, many ppl fell for it and religion grew from there.

it takes a lot of awareness to realize but this is the true form of "religion". nothing but a scam. the biggest scam of all time, in fact.

and w/o going into much detail, i used to be a scientologist. my parents are scientologist so they raised me to be one as well. it wasnt until i was scammed out all my money that i came to my senses.

truth, reality, honesty > religion, scams, lies.

[Nai_Calus]

To be fair, most religions aren't quite as whacked out as scientology.

Honestly, there's no real way of knowing any of it. Skeptics want proof of God's existance, but there's no proof either of God's non-existance. I could decide to worship the Great Light or some other diety from a video game, and you can't really prove to me that it doesn't actually exist.

I suppose I'm agnostic. I believe there's probably SOME kind of force that created everything, whether it's God or the Great Light or the Tooth Fairy or my smelly dirty socks through a time warp. I'm also willing to accept the possibility of there being nothing out there controlling things.

Maybe some sort of god created the universe and is watching us. Maybe nothing created the universe and it just happend by random chance from some higher dimensions slamming into eachother. Maybe some sort of god created the universe and then just moved on, leaving us to whatever fate might befall us. Maybe this is all some weird dream some alien being is having in another universe and none of us really exist. I don't know, and I'm cool with that.

[Balthor]

Scientology, and it's credit can be summed up in one picture.

http://users.sisna.com/greghar/blog/Cruise-Oprah.jpg

[Luis]

On 2006-05-26 22:33, Inazuma wrote:
no i dont believe in jesus b/c i am smart enough to know he is just another made up character. he is no different than the easter bunny or the tooth fairy.

truth, reality, honesty > religion, scams, lies.



No offense on yours beliving but, if you are smart enough can you tell me, what year are we now?

we are in 2006 because jesus was born 2006 years ago.
thats more than the easter bunny or the tooth fairy or anyone else.

[ShadowDragon28]

I'm non-Christian, but I think "Jesus" or rather,*Yeshua* most likely was a real person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/jesus.htm

I don't "Believe in him" , though I do think that two thousand years ago, there was a pretty darn wise, young Jewish Carpenter, that became new kind of outspoken religious leader with some good ideas.

I.E. Feed and heal the poor, treat ALL people with kindness and treat them fairly, forgive people that make huge mistakes and do "bad" things, Love people for they truely are no matter "what" or "who" they are.
(Minus all the IMNHO mythological (no offence ) stuff added in later. )

Far yoo many Judeo-Christian religions have gotten so hung up on "doctrine", dogma, prosetylzation(sp), and the IMO mythology of things;
that many of them focus less on the good *ideas* and the message the good man was trying so darned hard to convey back then.

IF that particular nice, wise man was around and alive today, and learned of the current state of the world,
I think he'd probably be appalled and horrified, and probably die due to immense anguish because of the many thousands killed "in his name" and in "Yahweh's"/"Allah's" name.... *sigh*
Just my two-cents.

Will the human race ever learn?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ShadowDragon28 on 2006-05-29 02:15 ]</font>

[Saraphim]

On 2006-05-26 22:33, Inazuma wrote:
no i dont believe in jesus b/c i am smart enough to know he is just another made up character. he is no different than the easter bunny or the tooth fairy.

i have a theory on how religion started:

people were always wondering how we got here, how everything started, whats the meaning of life, etc. well, some very clever men saw a chance to make some money. they made up some stories about heaven/hell, god/satan and claimed they had the answers that everyone wanted. well, needless to say, many ppl fell for it and religion grew from there.

it takes a lot of awareness to realize but this is the true form of "religion". nothing but a scam. the biggest scam of all time, in fact.

and w/o going into much detail, i used to be a scientologist. my parents are scientologist so they raised me to be one as well. it wasnt until i was scammed out all my money that i came to my senses.

truth, reality, honesty > religion, scams, lies.



It is unfair to base all religions on you experience with Scientology. That "religion" was started as a scam and a way to sell books written by L. Ron Hubbard. The high profile antics of converted celebs kinda shows it is a fashion statement if you will. The next trendy thing, kinda like going to a third world country and picking up a baby to wear around your arm at awards ceremonies. If you want to see what Scientologists think of themselves, go here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/scientol.htm

Be warned, you may get brainwashed into Scientology just by visiting the website (as I did http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

[Saiffy]

On 2006-05-26 23:51, Ian-KunX wrote:
Honestly, there's no real way of knowing any of it. Skeptics want proof of God's existance, but there's no proof either of God's non-existance. I could decide to worship the Great Light or some other diety from a video game, and you can't really prove to me that it doesn't actually exist.


I think religion has gotten too worked up in the idea of proving that God exists, and less about people choosing to believe in Him and His ways, and having faith. It's really kind of sad, and is what has turned me away from religion, and just made me believe what I believe, and not give a shit what others say or do.

[PwNeR]

i do
but im a communist
off topic