Inherent Accuracy

[whiteninja]

Well, I heard of a new concept recently on another message board... "Inherent Accuracy." I had never heard of it before, ever, and I have been playing this game for nearly two years now. I've heard about Beat Time Theory, which is untrue, and all of the "legit PGF finding methods", which are untrue... I'm also leaning towards this being untrue, since it was not explained at all in the posts that mentioned it.

If someone could explain the idea of inherent accuracy to me, and provide some sort of proof of it existing (if it does), that would be appreciated.

I am pretty sure that 40 ATA on a S-Rank Needle is more accurate than 35 ATA on a S-Rank J-Cutter, but from what I heard, that is not the case...

Edit: Typo's fixed.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: whiteninja on 2006-08-08 20:12 ]</font>

[Blitzkommando]

I've never heard of that sort of idea. Is it where the needle is more accurate due to it being a gun where the j-cutter is less accurate because it is a sword? That seems silly to me and more like wishful thinking than anything.

[whiteninja]

No. Supposedly, the J-Cutter, with less ATA, is more accurate than a Needle, which has 5 more ATA. (That is just one example though.)

[Blitzkommando]

Okay, that makes even less sense to me. I would say it boils down to people giving reason not to use the S-Rank Needle or whatever weapon as it gives an unfair advantage over what they use. Ergo, 'XXXX SWORD is more accurate than YYYY SLICER even though YYYY SLICER has more ATA'. Seems even sillier now looking back on that.

[stockholm_joy]

wow i dont even know about any of that stuff lol, but i would think the weapon with more ata should hit better.

[Eeyore]

It might be a misinterpretation of the distance penalty. It is obvious this exists. Plus the basic hit formula is suppose to be: ATA - EVP/5 - distance*2. What is the range of a needle and slicer? And what is the normal distance away are people at when they use them?

Also I think I've seen a website that said rangers don't have the distance penalty. However I thought I've seen rangers miss more when further away. Maybe it is they aren't effected as much by distance.

[Saiffy]

Swords are generally more accurate, is the idea.

I can hit Barba Ray with my j-cutter off the side of the boat. I cannot with needle. That is all I'm gonna say.

[Twilite]

I can tell you as a RAmar that rangers are indeed affected by the distance penalty; if I stand far enough away with a rifle, I can't hit at all--all misses. However, I doubt that weapons have inherent accuracy. This would be unneccessary from the game's designers point of view, as they already have an ATA stat to manipulate to give the weapons different accuracies.

[lolhaythar]

I can hit Barba Ray with my j-cutter off the side of the boat. I cannot with needle. That is all I'm gonna say.

Slicers don't actually have to physically contact enemies to hit; They're capable of hitting an enemy in full motion, even if the enemy actually "manually evades" the attack. It looks rather odd when you see an enemy stunned by an attack that didn't even touch it.

This actually works on Dragons, too. Slicers are actually "more" accurate on Dragons, too. Their statistical accuracy is no higher than that of a weapon with equal ATA, but they're capable of hitting since they don't need to physically impact the targetted area.


I can tell you as a RAmar that rangers are indeed affected by the distance penalty; if I stand far enough away with a rifle, I can't hit at all--all misses. However, I doubt that weapons have inherent accuracy. This would be unneccessary from the game's designers point of view, as they already have an ATA stat to manipulate to give the weapons different accuracies.

This is the same concept, somewhat. The speed of bullets in PSO permits the enemy to sometimes "manually evade" a shot. This is all that there is behind the distance penalty, as far as I know. This means that a real "distance penalty" doesn't exist, and you just become prone to missing at higher distances due to enemies "manually evading" your shots. If you don't believe me, compare your distance accuracy on a Belra to your accuracy up close; The enemy is stationary, and therefore incapable of manually evading the shot.

Neither of these two things is actually ATA dependent; The former happens because slicers don't need to come into physical contact with enemies to hit them, and the latter as a result of enemies being given enough time to step away from the shot between the time it's fire and the time it should connect.

For those who don't know, I basically mean backing out of the range or sidestepping a shot when I say "manually evading".



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: lolhaythar on 2006-08-09 08:45 ]</font>

[Hrith]

They already have the ATA stat, yet they made units like Smartlink, V501 and V502 which significantly increase accuracy without boosting ATA http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

The idea is simple, take a Hunter or a Force, with the exact same ATA, blade-type weapons will hit a lot more often than gun-type weapons (except Launchers).

Since Slicers are blade-type, they are much more accurate ranged weapons.

This is true for Rangers, too, but they have a 'natural boost' to gun-type weapons (which Hunters and Forces can compensate for using Smartlink).

Launchers have their own accuracy, they don't work like other guns (Launchers include weapons that work similarly, i.e. Ruby Bullet, Snow Queen, etc.).

It's an easy thing to test, if you want a very easy time testing it, try it on Barba Ray or Girtablulu; a Needle, Shot or other guns will miss them most of the time, even at very high ATA ratings, whereas even with less ATA, slicers will hit it without problems.

But it's noticeable nearly everywhere. I know I play a lot of Cave (especially on Gamecube) and when spamming Berserk Needle there, I would sometimes miss on the second hit, whereas with Slicer, it virtually never happens (and the latter has 5 less ATA), and Cave monsters don't have very high EVP.

[lolhaythar]

I probably should've also mentioned that even though slicers don't have to physically connect to deal damage, they do have to target the enemy. What I meant in this situation is that if the enemy moves, yet was still targetted, the slicer will connect with the enemy. This can actually happen with any "blade" weapon, but is extremely unlikely with anything other than slicers, as they're the only one that doesn't require the enemy to move instantly.

Launcher "accuracy" is the same as any gun, the difference here is that the enemy is incapable of vertically dodging the shot. The weapons you mentioned have infinite vertical range, after all.

I honestly can't speak accurately for BB, but...
v501/502: When equipped, this unit will increase the success rate of special attacks. - Success rate and accuracy are two different values. Accuracy determines if the special physically connects with the enemy; Success rate determines if the special's ability actually works.

Again, I can't say that what I've mentioned regarding BB is correct, but the mention of "success rate" leads me to believe that.

As for Caves, it's probably the result of enemies making slight movements. If a gun doesn't physically connect, you get a "miss", even though it isn't accuracy-based.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: lolhaythar on 2006-08-09 09:10 ]</font>

[Hrith]

V501 and V502 do NOT increase the success rate or specials, it increases the chance of the special hitting, not working.

Barba Ray and Girtablulu aren't flying monsters, yet Launchers hit them a lot better than other guns do, this is actually true for any monster, down to a mere Bartle, but it's less noticeable then.

And moving targets isn't the explanation, since I tested that on Recoboxes, heh.
Same for the "accuracy loss with range" as Twilite put it; the accuracy drops even on Merikle, Del Lily, etc. and they are stationary monsters.

A blade with 60 ATA is more accurate than a gun with 60 ATA, that's the explanation.

[whiteninja]

On 2006-08-09 09:14, Kef wrote:
A blade with 60 ATA is more accurate than a gun with 60 ATA, that's the explanation.
Yeah, that's a pretty illogical statement, especially when you didn't back it up with anything even saying how often you hit. I've already asked a friend of mine to help me with this, however, I'm not sure how easily we could find guns and swords with the same accuracy, and due to laziness' sake, I'll check it against this calculator:

http://z.purei.org/psocalc.php

It's pretty impossible to EVER miss a Reconbox though; the thing has about half the EVP of a Bartle. Even with 177 ATA on a NHH attack, you will never miss. After you have 247 ATA, you can perfectly hit on a HSS combo.

I was thinking about doing a Del Lily, but after you hit them, they fling upward, and if you try to shoot them before the head goes completely upward, you will miss all the time.

Merikle would be nice, except they attack back, and have absurdly high EVP, so the odds of missing them are large, regardless of the weapon you use.

I'll pick a good enemy later.

Edit: Also, the quote from above... It doesn't explain anything. ._.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: whiteninja on 2006-08-09 11:32 ]</font>

[REJ-]

I think that launchers just hit whatever the bullet touches, wheter or not it targets anything. If you shoot in the general direction that the Sil Dragon is when it's flying, you'll notice this.

[Hrith]

Online mode Recoboxes have enough EVP for me to test this (I used a HUcast with as low ATA as I could get), the saber didn't miss much, but the handgun did.

If you don't understand the explanation, I dunno, re-read it until you do, not much else can be done.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kef on 2006-08-09 18:23 ]</font>

[Saiffy]

I noticed while fighting Dal Ral Lie offline, that I was able to do H-H-H with my j-cutter, but not with my shot. On my RAcast, mind you, with not maxed ATA.

I'll make a video tomorrow sometime displaying this, other than that, yeah, I dunno.

[whiteninja]

On 2006-08-09 18:24, Saiffy wrote:
I noticed while fighting Dal Ral Lie offline, that I was able to do H-H-H with my j-cutter, but not with my shot. On my RAcast, mind you, with not maxed ATA.
That's because the two worm bosses do alot of up and down squiggly movement... an easy way to manually evade a shot. Try doing the same while the boss is on the boat, and not moving. Even then, there is some movement towards the tail end. Using that boss as an example only helps lolhaythar's argument.



Kefka, I am not terribly inclined to take things you say on good faith anymore... If you really need/want me to explain why, then ask in a PM.

I heard that for your testing on Reconboxes, you used a 0hit Red Saber and a 5hit Red Handgun (so they both had 51 ATA). That means your minimum amount of ATA was 191. You either used the specials to test it (which could not be compared well), or you did single attack combos with a single Heavy attack, since anything else would hit all the time... Assuming you did that, and assuming you did it 400 times each, that wouldn't really be enough to prove much, especially when no proof is provided in this thread.


Posted by Kefka:
If you don't understand the explanation, I dunno, re-read it until you do, not much else can be done.
For starters, you could say: "A blade with 60 ATA is more accurate than a gun with 60 ATA, because ---information, backed by statistics here---."

I like Norvekh's conspiricy theory though.

I would say it boils down to people giving reason not to use the S-Rank Needle or whatever weapon as it gives an unfair advantage over what they use.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[lolhaythar]

I noticed while fighting Dal Ral Lie offline, that I was able to do H-H-H with my j-cutter, but not with my shot. On my RAcast, mind you, with not maxed ATA.

I'm not denying this, it's a result of his vertical motion when beside the raft. It's the same for launchers; The motion is slight, but it does exist. If you'll notice, you can "miss" in normal mode with a Shot or Needle. It has nothing to do with accuracy, only the movement of the enemy.

[Saiffy]

It doesn't neccesarilly have to have real game data you can see. All you can really do is test it yourself. I can see, when I play, that it exists, so, well, if you don't think it does, whatever. I still think just one of the 4 amazing multi hit weapons available to RAs is just dumb, anyways http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

And I mean when DRL is on the boat I can HHH with jcutter, but not with shot, which has 5 more ATA.

You cannot see how big of a boost /Battle units give, they are just estimates, but no one has problems believing them, albeit, they are a little less subtle than this. 1/512 is the estimated rare enemy appearance rate, but no game data says so. Only thing we got to prove it is Tycho's testing(Or collecting of others peoples findings, anyways).


Even if slicers are less accurate than needles(Which they are, at first look, ignoring the blade type "ATA bonus"), 5 ATA won't make a difference on a RA, WN :/ And saying you're an ATA whore is redundant, cause it doesn't have anything to do with game data, eh? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[whiteninja]

On 2006-08-09 21:09, Saiffy wrote:
Even if slicers are less accurate than needles(Which they are, at first look, ignoring the blade type "ATA bonus"), 5 ATA won't make a difference on a RA, WN :/ And saying you're an ATA whore is redundant, cause it doesn't have anything to do with game data, eh? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
The 5 ATA difference between a J-Cutter and Needle is what makes or breaks Beserking on them for me. That, and the Neelde's ability to hit more enemies, faster, and no real range advantage on the J-Cutter. (I'd count the stepping forward as a disadvantage really.)


And I mean when DRL is on the boat I can HHH with jcutter, but not with shot, which has 5 more ATA.
When you miss, is it all five shots missing, or just one or two of them?

[PMB960]

It is definitely because of the distance. My level 138 RAmar with a base accuracy of 200 misses more with a rifle at range than my friend online with a sword. Up close it is different as I rarely miss. Offline single player though I hit a lot more that he does although I think it is because EVP is higher online so the distance penalty affects it more.

*edit I am using the 3000R which basically has no time between pushing the button and the enemy getting hit. Plus many enemies in caves can be attacked without them moving at all so there is no chance they can manually evade it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PMB960 on 2006-08-09 23:34 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PMB960 on 2006-08-09 23:38 ]</font>

[T0m]

I'm inclined to believe the "manual evading" explanation. When I'm in a Tower, I rarely miss a Mericator or Mericus while using a Yas 9000 at maximum range. (Merikles have higher evasion, so usually I freeze those first). But if a Mericator makes a dash for me, I keep missing till it's in my face. Then I hit it without any problem again.
When I'm alone, I use a Demon's Rifle for the Lilies, and I can't notice a difference in the succes rate of the special, regardless of the distance to the Lily.
For the idea of something not having to physically connect to damage a target, that reminds me of the Frozen Shooter's special. I noticed you can miss the shot, and still freeze what you missed. (What I mean is when you shoot while not having targetted an enemy; you won't even see a Miss and yet the special works.)
I'm not sure if Frozen Shooter falls under the Launcher's category as mentoned by others in this thread.

[Saiffy]

On 2006-08-09 22:26, whiteninja wrote:
The 5 ATA difference between a J-Cutter and Needle is what makes or breaks Beserking on them for me. That, and the Neelde's ability to hit more enemies, faster, and no real range advantage on the J-Cutter. (I'd count the stepping forward as a disadvantage really.)
not rly, but I'm not gonna convince you otherwise, so whatever.


When you miss, is it all five shots missing, or just one or two of them?
Only a few shots, but on both the first and second hit, where jcutter hit all 4 times on all 3 hits(Ulimately making it easier to kill with.)

[whiteninja]

On 2006-08-10 06:26, Saiffy wrote:

When you miss, is it all five shots missing, or just one or two of them?
Only a few shots, but on both the first and second hit, where jcutter hit all 4 times on all 3 hits(Ulimately making it easier to kill with.)
Alright, I'll go try out DRL with my Racast and his Needles right now. I'll even remove the S-Parts and God/Arm just to see if I can't get him while he is on the boat.

[PJ]

Alright, I'll go try out DRL with my Racast and his Needles right now. I'll even remove the S-Parts and God/Arm just to see if I can't get him while he is on the boat.



Pat, we'll still be cool after this, right? RIGHT?

But uhh... lol?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PJ on 2006-08-10 06:52 ]</font>

[whiteninja]

On 2006-08-10 06:52, PJ wrote:
Pat, we'll still be cool after this, right? RIGHT?
I hope so. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif I know that I have no arguments with you. Yeah, you may play silly, but silly is fun. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Annnnnnywhoooo.... I found a P-Arm's Arms on the way. Glee?! 1/350. What's the droprate in hard mode again? 1/150ish? XD

Against DRL, I had a Beserk Needle, and 255 ATA. Heavy, Heavy, Special. Worked. Without. Phail.
(While DRL was on the boat, that is.)

I'd attribute the S-Rank Shot missing so frequently because like I said before, DRL does still move while on the boat. When you press the Heavy Attack button, what you target at that moment is what you will shoot at. So, you do the momentary charge up, and then the (relatively) slow Shot animation. By the time you do that, DRL has moved out of the position you targeted him in... He has "manually evaded" your Shot at point blank range because a Shot is too slow to hit before he moves. A Needle goes significantly faster, so it has no problems with that. A J-Cutter doesn't need to connect with the animation at all, so it will also work fine.

Try HHH using your King's Needle (unless PJ still has it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif); it will hit.

[Saiffy]

On 2006-08-10 07:36, whiteninja wrote:
Try HHH using your King's Needle (unless PJ still has it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif); it will hit.


No, it doesn't, I have already tested it.

If using DRL as an example, the order of best for killing with it goes

1) Launcher
2) Slicer
3) Shot(For pure ATP purposes)
4) Needle

[whiteninja]

On 2006-08-10 07:42, Saiffy wrote:
No, it doesn't, I have already tested it.
Then why did mine work so well? The fact that my Needle worked and I saw it working does not make me think that it less "inherently accurate." The fact that your Shot missed consistently though, and your Slicer didn't does help me to believe that you missed a boss that was physcially dodging the attacks.

[Saiffy]

255 ATA on offline DRL? I took off my God/Abilities to lower ATA. You won't notice it with a RA offline with max ATA.

Edit: Heh, with 7 from max RAcast ATA, you barely notice it, but j cutter never misses DRL, shot misses sometimes, I just finished shot DRL movie, gonna do j-cutter and needle in a few(Did offline TTF, lazy)

Once again, I'll say that I do plan to eventually make a movie of me fighting DRL with needle, shot, and j-cutter. I'll do it sometime today, when I'm less busy. I might max my ATA for it, I might not, haven't decided yet. I'm not doing one for launchers, because those who use them know they destroy DRL, heh.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saiffy on 2006-08-10 12:53 ]</font>

[Feelmirath]

On 2006-08-09 09:14, Kef wrote:
Barba Ray and Girtablulu aren't flying monsters, yet Launchers hit them a lot better than other guns do, this is actually true for any monster, down to a mere Bartle, but it's less noticeable then.

So a froozer special has the same inherent accuracy as a launcher?
Heh, this is a pretty interesting theorymabob.

[Saiffy]

I made two videos. One of shot and one of j-cutter, both s-ranks, on DRL. Since he's, a decent example. My base ATA was 217. I'll have video links later, but for now, just go with what I saw.

Not counting when DRL was off the ship(Though I still attacked him then). The amount of misses were as follow

Shot: 9
J-cutter: 2(I was off a bit)

It's redundant to do needle, since it has the same ATA as shot, and is a gun too. Thats fancy talk for I'm too lazy to do it again.

[whiteninja]

255 ATA on offline DRL? I took off my God/Abilities to lower ATA. You won't notice it with a RA offline with max ATA.
Max? Nine from it. 215 as base should be on par with a Racast of your level, unless you removed your mag too.


My base ATA was 217.
My ATA was lower actually.


I made two videos. One of shot and one of j-cutter, both s-ranks, on DRL. Since he's, a decent example.
Like I've said, he is a bad example because he has alot of motion. As such, you are not testing the accuracy, but the animation itself. On a stationary (or close to stationary) target, there would be no problems with motion. That would also make the S-Rank shot a bad example since it is slow to fire, and allows the enemy to move more. A HSS combo on a Needle would have less of a problem hitting than S-Rank Shot, because the Needle would most likely hit on the first attack (because the enemies do not move as far), and stun the enemies, so they would stay still to get pounded by the second and third attacks. A J-Cutter does not stun enemies well, but it does not have to (in order to hit, that is; in order to stop the enemies from hitting you, it must), since it has no photon bullet which must physically contanct the enemy.

What you are arguing for is not "inherent accuracy," it's the enemies' ability to move, which you are judging on the enemies that move the most, and saying "See?! That proves inherent accuracy!"

The instances were a J-Cutter would have more "inherent accuracy" over a Needle are very few (because of a Needle's speed), and stating there is some constant effect of higher effeciency is idiotic, because it is untrue.


It's redundant to do needle, since it has the same ATA as shot, and is a gun too. Thats fancy talk for I'm too lazy to do it again.
A Needle shoots significantly faster than a Shot, so it's attacks would be alot less likely to be evaded.

[Twilite]

First of all, concerning Launchers, they work differently from conventional guns, as while they must physically hit the enemies to take effect (like normal guns), they must not target enemies to hit them. This is why my Red Scorpio hits Nano Dragons in the air despite not being able to target them. This is also why a Launcher can hit multiple enemies (or boxes or targets on a boss) despite only targeting one thing at a time.

Back on inherent accuracy, it seems to me that the way to test this would be to fight a simple enemy like a Bartle, as a Bartle will not physically evade the attack if it is walking directly towards you.

[Saiffy]

DRL doesn't move enough on the boat >_>

[whiteninja]

On 2006-08-10 18:01, Saiffy wrote:
DRL doesn't move enough on the boat >_>
It's alot less than he does in the water, but he still moves a sigficant amount more on the boat then most every enemy you will find in the game.

Test the same thing out on Sil Dragon, right as he is walking at you, before he falls down. Try a HHH with your J-Cutter, then try an HHH with your 80h Vises. 60 ATA, that should be a big enough advantage on the mechs, right?

"Inherent accuracy" is just a horribly chosen name stating: "Swords hit can hit moving enemies at point blank range without actually 'hitting' as long as the target them. Guns need to have their 'photon bullet' make contact with the enemy." That is easily achieved by doing a Normal attack first to stun, or by using shorter ranged faster weapons, like Needles, instead of long range slow ones, like Shots. In no way at all is the 35 ATA of a J-Cutter more accurate than the 40 ATA of a Needle. In very few circumstances will the J-Cutters's ability to hit moving targets matter, and in those instances I still doubt it could out do a Needle.

This is nonsense, just like BTT, and just like all the legit PGF finding methods. I have my answer.



Original poster requesting lock. First Mod to see this post, please do so. Thanks.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: whiteninja on 2006-08-10 19:10 ]</font>