When the Levees broke.

[InfinityXXX]

Is anyone watching this?

Its a 2 part(4hour) documentary over the whole Hurrican Katrina event. It's directed by the one and only Spike Lee and covers a LOT of info on post-Katrina, during Katrina, and after Katrina. Theres also a lot of footage and photos that weren't shown in the news that will open your eyes or leave you in tears.

Certain things that are discussed are: How there was information about Katrina before it hit, how Brown(head of fema) warned the governmeant of how powerful the storm was and what it could do, the classism and racism that took place in and out of the effected area, why there was such a slow response, analysis of how political figures performed during the crisis (the infamous picture of Condaleeza's foot while she was shoe shopping after the storm and Dick Chenney fishing), plans of trying to prevent another catastrophe, how people were rescued, and the controversy of how exactly the levees broke..

Theres also a lot of heartbreaking stories and interviews, I'm a dude and I kind of teared up at some of the stories and pictures. And it makes you wonder, why did our own American Citizens, had to suffer and die on American soil the way they did. The pictures of the children, face down in the water, old people dead in their wheel chairs, and babies crying and dying will just leave you saying...WTF?!

I recommend that you at least check it out. Its on HBO(the second half plays tommorow and the whole thing plays again on the 29th*the anniversary of Katrina). Its a really good documentary, it occasionally goes into political stuff, but it focuses on the most important thing, the people that suffered.

[Dangerous55]

I agree, government response was not at all what it should have been. Was it because of racism? No, come on, that is something that should not be mentioned in situations like that. I also think the human race, Americans, should stop relying on their government. If I die in a flood, or a hurricane, I am going to blame myself, not President Bush. The government is there to help and should be investigated for the entire situation afterwards. But if the population of New Orleans and surrounding areas were more observant themselves the death would have been much less. I am not blaming them, I am just saying people have got to stop relying on the government, with such things as welfare and unemployment. This is a situation where the government should help more then it did, don't get me wrong but citizens must take a personal responsibility which sadly I don't think alot of New Orleans did. Mainly this boils down to is stop blaming and relying on others.

I also want to say how quickly American forgot about New Orleans it seems, the place is still destroyed.

[Tweengo]

I live in UK, and I'd just like to say I hate the US for the way it handled the 'rescue effort'. There were scenes their reminiscent of the third world. I saw loads of coloured (me myself being mixed race) people suffering. In the news reports, whites stealing from shops for food were regarded as 'heroes', while blacks, mexicans, portericans, and however many other races there are in the US, were seen as common criminals doing the exact same thing. I mean come, this is meant to be the most powerful country in the world, and they let people suffer more than 24 hours after mother nature beat them down. Yeah, powerful military wise, but rescuing, psssh yeah right. If that happened here, rescue efforts would begin immediately after the disaster.

[Roffkaiser]

Don't even get me started on how bad the British government treats certain people(I seem to remember the 1st Para getting medals for shooting civilians in Free Derry)

Now back when this happened, which seems so long ago, I was under two different thoughts, one being that people shouldn't be shot for looting things like food, but people should be arrested, shot, etc for things like stealing TVs, jewelery, things of that nature that are purely for greedy things like taking advantage of peoples problems. Then you have the people that stole food straight from elderly people that couldn't do much about it, or that were shooting at the rescue workers, helicopters, and other civilians, those people are terrible and should have been killed(and some were) regardless of race.

The Mayor of New Orleans did a terrible job of helping people out, and took it out on the federal government, which it isn't the federal governments job to work at the local level....I mean that is the definition of a Federal Republic, you have multiple levels of government to handle problems at the levels, and the person who was expected to solve this problem/avoid it was the Mayor. I can't believe he got re-elected after his terrible performance, but I guess that is the way things go, maybe the voters will learn in another few years when the same thing happens again.

[Dangerous55]

Oh, another bullshit thing. The Government took away guns after the crisis. They basically slapped their dicks off the Constitution. The Second Amendment is there especially for situations where society breaks down. Dah!

[Zalana]

On 2006-08-22 00:12, Dangerous55 wrote:
I agree, government response was not at all what it should have been. Was it because of racism? No, come on, that is something that should not be mentioned in situations like that. I also think the human race, Americans, should stop relying on their government. If I die in a flood, or a hurricane, I am going to blame myself, not President Bush. The government is there to help and should be investigated for the entire situation afterwards. But if the population of New Orleans and surrounding areas were more observant themselves the death would have been much less. I am not blaming them, I am just saying people have got to stop relying on the government, with such things as welfare and unemployment. This is a situation where the government should help more then it did, don't get me wrong but citizens must take a personal responsibility which sadly I don't think alot of New Orleans did. Mainly this boils down to is stop blaming and relying on others.

I also want to say how quickly American forgot about New Orleans it seems, the place is still destroyed.



I completely agree with what you have to say. But, I still feel George Bush and the Mayor really didn't care all that much...

[Roffkaiser]

On 2006-08-22 10:46, Dangerous55 wrote:
Oh, another bullshit thing. The Government took away guns after the crisis. They basically slapped their dicks off the Constitution. The Second Amendment is there especially for situations where society breaks down. Dah!



I hardly look at a hurricane as the breakdown of society but that city just seemed ready for such things to happen, not to mention most of these problems came from gangs and things of that nature that already existed in the big city. I am fully a support of the 2nd amendment, but not a support of shooting at rescue workers, etc. Sorry if i misinterpreted your response, if so forget i posted this.

[TheyCallMeJoe]

On 2006-08-22 12:31, Roffkaiser wrote:

I hardly look at a hurricane as the breakdown of society but that city just seemed ready for such things to happen, not to mention most of these problems came from gangs and things of that nature that already existed in the big city. I am fully a support of the 2nd amendment, but not a support of at rescue workers, etc. Sorry if i misinterpreted your response, if so forget i posted this.


Was just about to post the same thing. The 2nd Amendment means nothing when the people "bearing arms" threaten the "security of a free state." The right to carry an armed weapon pretty much becomes irrelevant in the case of Katrina...first of all, why would you need a weapon? Second of all, with all of those miscreants running around attacking rescuers/ eachother, I think that restricting firearms was absolutely necessary.

[Eihwaz]

On 2006-08-22 10:46, Dangerous55 wrote:
Oh, another bullshit thing. The Government took away guns after the crisis. They basically slapped their dicks off the Constitution. The Second Amendment is there especially for situations where society breaks down. Dah!


Yeah, I read about that. It was fucking ridiculous.

[Dangerous55]

On 2006-08-22 13:06, TheyCallMeJoe wrote:

Was just about to post the same thing. The 2nd Amendment means nothing when the people "bearing arms" threaten the "security of a free state." The right to carry an armed weapon pretty much becomes irrelevant in the case of Katrina...first of all, why would you need a weapon? Second of all, with all of those miscreants running around attacking rescuers/ eachother, I think that restricting firearms was absolutely necessary.



To protect yourself against the miscreants, duh?

And yeah, it was a complete breakdown of society.

[Eihwaz]

Yes, that was kind of the point. The people stuck in their houses had no ways to defend themselves, while various miscreants ran around with their guns, terrorizing people.

[DizzyDi]

I damn near cried watching it.
My entire family is from New Orleans, both my mom's and dad's side so that is my city. I wasn't there when Katrina happened, I moved years before then, but I loved everything about the place. Theres nothing like it, the people, the music, the food, just the overall atmosphere of New Orleans cannot be replaced or duplicated. And just to see my people in such pain and struggle, it hurts. I almost wished I was there for it so I could be there with them and possibly help them in some way.
About the whole government thing, I don't blame bush for Katrina, thats a natural disaster, but I sure as hell blame him for how horrible the response was for it, and how horrible things are still going in New Orleans. Bush was still sitting on his ass chillin' on vacation while people were out ther dying and suffering, he decided like what? 2-3 weeks later to come check things, just to peek his head in and give people some sorta false since of hope or something. Well like some of the graffiti said on the documentary: HOPE IS NOT A PLAN. People are out there dying, not just cause of disease and even heartbreak, but because of the rampart crime in the city. I only half-read the posts in this thread so I don't know how everyone stands on it, but after watching this I certainly can't stand Bush, or the government.

[InfinityXXX]

Lemme type a long post so I can break down my feelings on the subject and my views and ideas on how we can rebuild New Orleans.lol
---------
Racism

As for racism, to me, the respone was not really racist, but the way it was handled "in" New Orleans (after the storm) was a bit racist and some of the things the media did was a bit racist.

People down there were treated like animals. There was some criminals that went around shooting but to hold guns up and talk the way they did to babies, children and old folks was just ridiculous. Most of the soldiers were on the highway and superdome but most of the damn crime and unneceassary looting(taking ps2s and dvds) was going on in the various wards.

The defense they said was, "to keep everything in order", and New Orleans did need order down there but I doubt a gang of senior citiizens will pose such a great threat that you should speak down too them and hold guns up to them.

Now there were other people of different races trapped down there but after the 1st day, lets be honest, when you turned on your tv all you saw was black people. Most of the white folks stuck down there "magically" dissappeared.(they were just picked up the day the storm hit at the super dome)

This unjustice became a thing that pissed off a lot of blacks and creoles. My cousin, who was down there, told me how they told most of the black people or groups with a lot of blacks, to relocate to certain areas around the superdome and highway and at that time they used the first buses to pick up the groups that were full of whites. She was a probation officer that got caught in the storm.


I found the media racist because of the whole refrence to our citizens as "refugees". This was uncalled for. A refugee is a person that has ran away from their country, these people were American citizens that pay their taxes like me and you so why call them refugees as if there not American.

I also didn't like the whole looting pictures. I'm not gonna elaborate on this because its been brought up a lot and I think everyone knows what it was about. In a nut shell: White people loot=good, black people loot=bad.
---------------
Classism

If you want me to sum up why the whole response was slow, why New Orleans is "still" not repaired, and why FEMA and Insurances proves to be useless down there, I would say its because of classism.

The only people that were hurt the most were the poor people and some lower and upper middle class people.

The rich are ok, and their the ones that are down in New Orleans as we speak but the poor have been singled out and the reason why is because of........land.

Rich people and companies have wanted to gentrify the area that most poor and middle class people live at for years. Its part of New Orleans' history of the attempts(from stealing deeds to blowing up houses), that they tried to use to rid the poor from the land in order to make it into a better tourist place for the rich.

The govt of America and of Louisianna do not want the poor to return, this is why FEMA is taking its time giving out money and trailors for people to stay in. This is also why, they unnecessarily split all the evacuees up into different places in the country. Its ridiculous, that its been a year since the disaster and lots of people don't even have a trailor to stay at or their FEMA check..

but what these government officials and rich people don't understand....is that the poor(made up mostly of blacks, creoles, puerto ricans, and some native americans) makes New Orleans the city that we know. A lot of poor people come from generations of people that were born and raised in New Orleans and they hold a large amount of the city's culture, to take them out, is like taking the life out the city.

For those that say, the people shouldn't rely on the government, well, most people of New Orleans have no choice but to rely on the government. Their homes are gone, their jobs are gone, and many peoples insurance policies aren't giving them anything due to the whole debate on whether the destruction of the city was by the hurricane or the flood(which is both!). So people have no choice but to rely on their government (*cough* Fema), which is not doing nearly enough.

------------------
The Government

I blame just about everyone with the government for just being stupid on how to help the people of New Orleans. Everyone was just trying to be politically correct and follow rules and procedures but when babies, children, and old people are dying........f**k the rules and procedures. It doesn't take much to have someone get in a helicopter and drop some food and water down there. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Canada get troops down there before ours!?

I understand that there was some delay because the mayor(Nagin) and governor(that one chic) had some issues, thus making both their hands tied but at times like this...work together. Swallow your pride and work together no matter how much animosity you have towards each other.

Now I'm not here to Bush bash. I've stated many times on forums that I like Bush as a person and I respect him but dislike him as a president. I critisize Bush, Condoleeeza, Cheney, Brown, and Chertoff for the way they handled the situtation.

Condoleeza: she shouldn't have been out shopping for shoes when people were dying.

Cheney: He shouldn't have been out fishing when people were dying. And he was wrong for re-ordering a power company to the north east when they were needed in New orleans.

Brown: I do give him some props for warning the president of what Katrina can do and I acknowledge that his hands were tied because Chertoff wouldn't acknowledge New Orleans was in a crisis(which would give Brown the power to send money to New Orleans) but after Katrina hit, he acted like a moron when handeling FEMA.

Chertoff: How many people did he need to see die, or how high did the water need to be to announce that New Orleans was in a state of Emergency?

Bush: I didn't like how Bush didn't come into the actual city until 3 weeks after Katrina. Was he to good to go and help his own American citizens? When hurrican Betsy hit N.O, Lyndon B Johnson went and walked in the city during the night. Your our president, the leader of us and the decision maker for us, you could've at least went down their and talked to and encouraged your people.

I also didn't like how he knew of the damage Katrina would cause but after Katrina hit, he was in California playing a guitar and singing for some conference while people starved and died.

-----------------
My views towards improvement

New Orleans can become the great city it was but people need to stop being shady and mean and just work together. WORK TOGETHER!!!! I can't stress this enough. The levees should be rebuilt WAAAY better. They were heavily outdated(the Netherlands have better levees than us and we're suppose to be the best country out there).

FEMA should give out its money and trailors to everybody and people should start rebuilding starting from the 9th WARD.

As easy as this sounds, its not that easy because of all the agendas people are up too. Some want land, some want money, some are lazy, and some are just low dow nand dirty. I'm glad that the actual incident is over but I can't forget how those people suffered. People that look like you and me, people that were citizens like us, died due to lack of leadership and pettyness.

I just pray, that all the sould that were lost, find peace somewhere, and that New Orleans can become the city it use to be and the residents would come back.


Do you know what it means...to miss New orleans...

[Dangerous55]

Maybe you saw more blacks not being picked up because 67.25% of the population is black, just a thought.

I am sick of people relying on the Government, if you think the government is racist, war-mongering or corrupt, get off welfare and unemployment, please.

The Government can help you, and you can investigate the level of help they gave, but you have to watch out for yourself and family and friends first.


It is late, and I don't want to argue. We need less government in this country, in this world. Government should be there to help in situations like this but the disaster would have been mostly lost in money, not lives, had the citizens been less reliant on the Government.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dangerous55 on 2006-08-22 22:59 ]</font>

[ABDUR101]

I'm with D55 on this one. Honestly, it was a natural disaster. Guess what, people die in natural disasters, even americans. Due warning was given, everyone was notified. The government reaction time and effort wasn't all that great, but thats something that can be worked on(and people will use as a scapegoat for years to come).

Really gotta say, it's horrible what happened, but really, we've got people living in 'tornado alley' in trailer parks, and when their homes get destroyed 'Yeeeuup, we're gunna rebuild..". Well, ya know, the tornadoes aren't going to stop, and neither will the hurricanes and flooding. So really, whats up?

If people are going to live there, you have to expect there to be casualties. Shit, I see dogs and cats hit in the middle of the road every day, and they did'nt even understand that a car or truck going 50mph, will kill you when it runs you over. So what are we supposed to think when people just keep going back to areas that have natural disasters and so on, know the risks, even get fair-warning that it's going to be dangerous?

"A trains coming, get off the tracks."
"Nah, I'm good."

[Roffkaiser]

I agree with both Abdur101 and Dangerous55, I mean really the government can only do SO much when it IS used, and during Katrina many parts of the government weren't used. You talk about the Canadians getting down to New Orleans before our troops, that can't happen unless Bush allowed it. Then you got many many national guard units in the state that sat idle because the Governor didn't seem to think they were needed for a couple of weeks, and even when you do call them, it isn't like we have 100,000 helicopters that can drop 100,000 baked dinners onto everones front lawns within a day of the accident, we couldn't even do that today if we wanted to.

People need to stop thinking the Government in their crutch in life and get mad when that crutch breaks, or isn't there, use some common sense.

[InfinityXXX]

On 2006-08-22 22:42, Dangerous55 wrote:
Maybe you saw more blacks not being picked up because 67.25% of the population is black, just a thought.


First, I didn't see the whites picked up, it was my cousin. I was stating what she saw(I said this in the post).

And according to her they were a LOT of white people stranded at the superdome(the other percent). She knows what she saw so if you wanna argue with her over what she saw, you can go to New Orleans, attend the town meeting where shes frequently speaking at, and debate with her.
--------------------


On 2006-08-22 23:27, ABDUR101 wrote:
I'm with D55 on this one. Honestly, it was a natural disaster. Guess what, people die in natural disasters, even americans. Due warning was given, everyone was notified. The government reaction time and effort wasn't all that great, but thats something that can be worked on(and people will use as a scapegoat for years to come).



If people are going to live there, you have to expect there to be casualties.


I understand what you and D55 are saying but I disagree.

Of course people die in natural disasters but in Katrina case, more people died from starvation, sickness, and heat than from the actual storm and flood itself. The storm couldn't have been prevented but the sickness,disease and death could have. People didn't have to die the way they did. True, people die in disasters but in this case, most people died due to the dealyed response.

As far as the warning....I really hate how people say "Oh they were warned" as if it was there fault for staying there. Not everyone could easily leave like you and I.(Hell, if my family was down there, we probably wouldn't had left)

Some people didn't have the money to fuel up a car and get somewhere to stay, some people didn't have cars, some people had to stay because they had to take care of someone elderly, some people, as in my cousin's case, had to stay because it was their duty (shes a probation officer). To say they were warned and/or hint to that their staying was wrong is just wrong. To tell a whole city to evacuate is easier said than done.

And as for Welfare.....I really dislike how people just assume people enjoy being on welfare...MOST people HATE being on welfare TRUST ME on this one. Its embarassing and people use it as a way to get off of it. I was on welfare and my mom went to college and now we're not on it, w/o the help of welfare we would've died/starved long ago(your in this world by yourself). I also find it funny how people just assume everyone on welfare relies on it heavily and do nothing with their life(which is WRONG)

Lots of people aren't fortunate in life, to use the cliched defense of "they put theirselves in that position" is dumb. People get on welfare for numerous reasons: being born poor, getting laid off from a job, having a child to young, not being able to get a decent job due to discrimination or having no luck(my mom's case) etc,etc.....the list goes on and on.

And to say, to the people that dropped out of school or had children early, that they should've stayed in school and went to college...is wrong to an extent. My mom had a masters degree but we were still on welfare, every job she interviewed for that was for her degree was lost because she lost out to someone(majority white) with a lower degree. Everything is not as simple as it sounds.

In the case of Katrina, a lot of people are on welfare for the first time so don't assume that they've been on it all their life. If you lost everything you had because of some disaster, you'll be wanting welfare or some help from the govt too.

Also, lots of people that were expecting to get money through insurance can't get it because the insurance companies are denying them so this is why the demand for govt help is increasing even more.

Due to Katrina, the delayed response, and the stupidness of FEMA and Insurances: People are homeless, people are poor, people are dead, people are lost, people are sick, and people are injured. Its our governments duty to help its citizens, especially those that give their money to the government.

I hope I didn't disrespect any of you (I know I didn't) and I apologize if I somehow sounded hostile but it really frustrates me when I hear people, especially those who weren't affected by Katrina, passing judgment and saying comments like "Oh, they could've left", "It was the storms fault", or "They shouldn't rely on the government" as if things were so simple.





On 2006-08-22 22:42, Dangerous55 wrote:
Maybe you saw more blacks not being picked up because 67.25% of the population is black, just a thought.


First, I didn't see the whites picked up, it was my cousin. I was stating what she saw(I said this in the post).

And according to her they were a LOT of white people stranded at the superdome(the other percent). She knows what she saw so if you wanna argue with her over what she saw, you can go to New Orleans, attend the town meeting where shes frequently speaking at, and debate with her.
--------------------


On 2006-08-22 23:27, ABDUR101 wrote:
I'm with D55 on this one. Honestly, it was a natural disaster. Guess what, people die in natural disasters, even americans. Due warning was given, everyone was notified. The government reaction time and effort wasn't all that great, but thats something that can be worked on(and people will use as a scapegoat for years to come).



If people are going to live there, you have to expect there to be casualties.


I understand what you and D55 are saying but I disagree.

Of course people die in natural disasters but in Katrina case, more people died from starvation, sickness, and heat than from the actual storm and flood itself. The storm couldn't have been prevented but the sickness,disease and death could have. People didn't have to die the way they did. True, people die in disasters but in this case, most people died due to the dealyed response.

As far as the warning....I really hate how people say "Oh they were warned" as if it was there fault for staying there.(I'm not saying that you or Dangerous are intending this) But Not everyone could easily leave like you and I.(Hell, if my family was down there, we probably wouldn't had left)

Some people didn't have the money to fuel up a car and get somewhere to stay, some people didn't have cars, some people had to stay because they had to take care of someone elderly, some people, as in my cousin's case, had to stay because it was their duty (shes a probation officer). To say they were warned and/or hint to that their staying was wrong is just wrong. To tell a whole city to evacuate is easier said than done.

And as for Welfare.....I really dislike how people just assume people enjoy being on welfare...MOST people HATE being on welfare TRUST ME on this one. Its embarassing and people use it as a way to get off of it. I was on welfare and my mom went to college and now we're not on it, w/o the help of welfare we would've died/starved long ago(your in this world by yourself). I also find it funny how people just assume everyone on welfare relies on it heavily and do nothing with their life(which is WRONG)

Lots of people aren't fortunate in life, to use the cliched defense of "they put theirselves in that position" is dumb. People get on welfare for numerous reasons: being born poor, getting laid off from a job, having a child to young, not being able to get a decent job due to discrimination or having no luck(my mom's case) etc,etc.....the list goes on and on.

And to say, to the people that dropped out of school or had children early, that they should've stayed in school and went to college...is wrong to an extent. My mom had a masters degree but we were still on welfare, every job she interviewed for that was for her degree was lost because she lost out to someone(majority white) with a lower degree. Everything is not as simple as it sounds.

In the case of Katrina, a lot of people are on welfare for the first time so don't assume that they've been on it all their life. If you lost everything you had because of some disaster, you'll be wanting welfare or some help from the govt too.

Also, lots of people that were expecting to get money through insurance can't get it because the insurance companies are denying them so this is why the demand for govt help is increasing even more.

Due to Katrina, the delayed response, and the stupidness of FEMA and Insurances: People are homeless, people are poor, people are dead, people are lost, people are sick, and people are injured. Its our governments duty to help its citizens, especially those that give their money to the government.

I apologize if I somehow sounded hostile but it really frustrates me when I hear people, especially those who weren't affected by Katrina, passing judgment and saying comments like "Oh, they could've left", "It was the storms fault", or "They shouldn't rely on the government" as if things were so simple.



You talk about the Canadians getting down to New Orleans before our troops, that can't happen unless Bush allowed it. Then you got many many national guard units in the state that sat idle because the Governor didn't seem to think they were needed for a couple of weeks, and even when you do call them, it isn't like we have 100,000 helicopters that can drop 100,000 baked dinners onto everones front lawns within a day of the accident, we couldn't even do that today if we wanted to.


I'm not entirely sure about canada being there(thats why I said correct me if I'm wrong) I had jsut heard that from some people.

As far as the 100,000 helicopters.........1-100 helicopters could've greatly reduced the starvation and death caused by the heat. It doesn't take much to drop food at the superdome and on the highway. The only helicopter that were out there when the levees broke were the helicopters from the costal patrol and they were rescuing people.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: InfinityXXX on 2006-08-23 22:13 ]</font>