It's sorta racist, but it isn't, so it's ok

[Saiffy]

"American's are stupid"

I can't remember the exact conversation, but basically, that was it.

I don't even mean extremist anti-America mumbo jumbo, I mean regular everyday people.

So, story. I was on vacation to Minneapolis since Saturday morning(btw guys I'm back). On the way there, for SOME REASON(There was a reason, I can't remember http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif) my mom said Americans were stupid. I didn't say anything then, but yeah. How is it any difference than racism to say something like that?

I bet if I said black people are dirty(Weird to type), I'd get lots of...feedback. But saying Americans are stupid is...ok. Just, blah.

Reminds me of another time, again with my mom, back in early June we were watching a hockey game, it was Edmonton at Carolina. So an American singer for the national anthem, before she sung O'Canada, my mom said "I bet she doesn't even know the words". I asked her "Do you know the words to Star Spangled Banner? Or that their anthem was even called that?" and she said "No". Well, it was more interesting than that, but, you get the point.


I was moreso surprised, I had heard from people than generally Americans in public aren't as nice as what I'd be used to, but I was pretty surprised to see otherwise http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif


NOT A HUGE ANTI AMERICA RANT PUT THAT SHIT ELSEWHERE <_>

[DLShAdOw]

lol the people in my city won't fucking pick up hitchikers*read:me*

No americans (i am one) well...idk they're...unafraid to speak their minds.

psh we're kinda rude too, well at least some of us.

and saiffy i lol'd when you wrote "Reminds me of another time, again with my mom, back in early June we were watching a hockey game, it was Edmonton at Carolina." kinda sterotypical, canadians watching hockey. You guys really like it a lot don't you?
please don;t flame me it's just a joke

[TheyCallMeJoe]

If your like me and live away from the bigger cities...you should be safe from American stupidity. I live about 30 min away from Seattle, and even then it's not bad.

But, I do have to say that a lot of the American public is severly undereducated. My dad got an e-mail from one of his friends, and inside there was a survey that asked:

Who was an American ally during World War II?
a.) Stalin
b.) Mousollini
c.) Hilter
d.) Franco

It was given to 5 high school students from who knows where...and sadly 4/5 of them put...*sigh* Germany. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif. There's a show called Street Smarts, I don't think it's around anymore. They go around parks and whatnot asking folks some questions, and the contestants in the game have to guess whether the person will get the answer right or wrong. Some of the completely obvious answers are missed by a longshot. It's sad.

[Sinue_v2]

I don't doubt it...

My niece is almost 16 years old and she can barely read. She came into the room the other day and sat down to watch TV and nearly threw a fit because I was watching the WWII chan.. er - History Channel. Some program about Germany's Nuclear program. She could care less what is on, generally, so long as it isn't educational.

It's funny, because even some of the most brain-dead stoners I grew up with love educational TV. History, Discovery, Science, PBS... they'd get fried out of their minds and veg out on some crazy undersea spiked urchin mating rituals. (Or infomercials) She though... her goal in life - litterally - is to be trailer trash. She wants to be a redneck badly, and she's embracing all of the negetive stereotypes without giving any thought at all to what it really means to be one.

For example, when I moved back into the house so that I could attend collage, I noticed that she had a Confederate flag hanging over her window as a curtain. Now, my father was a huge Civil War buff, not to mention a Kennedy kid who believed firmly in civil rights. So I grew up with a special... appreceation for the flag. I took it down to hang up curtains, and she raised hell talking about how that flag represented her culture and heritage, and how I had no right to strip down a symbol she was proud to have represent herself.

Ok... fine...

I tell her she can hang her flag, but first she had to read a book. Rebel Soldier: Front and Rear - a biography of one of the soldiers who fought and died so that that flag could fly over his native state. I told her that once she demonstrated to me that she knew what the flag represented to herself, what others saw when they viewed it, and what it meant for those who died for that flag - then she could hang it with pride. (Just not over the windows)

To the best of my knowadge - she hasn't even cracked the cover of the book yet. So much for her pride in her "culture and heritage"... she won't even attempt to read 200 mesely pages so that she could gain an insight and appreceation for that heritage.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2006-08-22 19:52 ]</font>

[navci]

Interesting piece of information I just acquired:

According to CIA world factbook 2005 America's literacy rate is 97%. Compare to Australia 100%, United Kingdom 99%, Trinidad and Tobago 98.6%. (threw in for random compairson).

Feels more like 50%, doesn't it?

Though I completely agree with Saiffy's point.
Bash if you have a good reason to. Don't bash just cuz it is the hip thing. Hey by the way your mom is SO HIP.

[Sharkyland]

I thought the scandinavian countries were more literate.

Anyway, back on topic... I can see I have a small amount of friends were are like that. Saying random things not knowing what it can do.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sharkyland on 2006-08-22 22:03 ]</font>

[InfinityXXX]

On 2006-08-22 17:33, Saiffy wrote:

I bet if I said black people are dirty(Weird to type), I'd get lots of...feedback. But saying Americans are stupid is...ok. Just, blah.




Well, yeah, you would get a lot of feedback because your talking about a race of people. When you say "America is stupid", your talknig about all americans of different races and types so I "guess" thats ok than talknig about a single group. [/sarcasm]

I know what your saying though. I hate bandwagoners. If you feel a certain way towards something, have reasons as to why you feel that way, don't feel that way just because everyone feels that way and you want to fit in.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: InfinityXXX on 2006-08-23 22:11 ]</font>

[Shigecki]

On 2006-08-22 21:28, navci wrote:
Interesting piece of information I just acquired:

According to CIA world factbook 2005 America's literacy rate is 97%. Compare to Australia 100%, United Kingdom 99%, Trinidad and Tobago 98.6%. (threw in for random compairson).


This information is misleading. The population of all those countries don't even compare to the population of the United States, combined(Australia has about 20 million, UK totals around 59 million, US has around 299 million). Trinidad and Tobago? Population of around 1 million. Can't compare. Some suburbs of Los Angeles have more people then that.



On 2006-08-22 18:06, TheyCallMeJoe wrote:
It was given to 5 high school students from who knows where...and sadly 4/5 of them put...*sigh* Germany. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif.

And I could get five high school students together that do know the Stalin was an ally of the United States during WWII. BFD. Not a representation of the US. They are the ones that got the press, not the other 200 or so that knew the answer.



On 2006-08-22 17:33, Saiffy wrote:
So, story. I was on vacation to Minneapolis since Saturday morning(btw guys I'm back).

Explained.

Next time ask your mom who's more stupid, Americans or someone who vacations in Minnesota. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Dangerous55]

America is a huge country, and the most powerful one on the planet. I agree everyone should be more interested in history, politics, etc. I am also sure I know alot more about British history than a large amount of British people. And I am an American, it is all who you talk to. But if you look at our nation as a whole, well, we kinda are the nation everyone looks up too. So stop trying to look for weak points unless you want us to improve and not just to be a bitch.

[Tweengo]

Here in UK, we have a channel called More4, and this American programme comes on that pokes fun at politics and the news. It shows a part where Bush is trying to think of something to say, and he says something like 'just wait a minute while I try to get something in my head' or something along those lines. And a message says 'He's the leader of the most powerful country in the world....we're all f****d! Laugh while you can' http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif Man, if he's the president, I'd hate to think what other americans are like. Talking about jumpers with our stupid primeminister Bliar<<intended spelling mistake, falling off his bike.
Also, Americans tend to be loud in foreign countries 'cause they think they're the best, 'specially in restaurants.

[astuarlen]

Mega dittos, Saiffy.



On 2006-08-22 18:06, TheyCallMeJoe wrote:
It was given to 5 high school students from who knows where...and sadly 4/5 of them put...*sigh* Germany. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif.

As Shigeki pointed out, "5 [students] from who knows where" doesn't sound like an adequately large or random sampling of folks to accurately reflect anything--beyond their own knowledge, of course. Here's a link to a post (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003199.html) from the (very cool) scholars at Language Log about a similar sort of "lol, Americans are ignorint" survey/story published in mainstream media. 5 bucks says no one clicks the link :>



On 2006-08-22 22:23, InfinityXXX wrote:


On 2006-08-22 17:33, Saiffy wrote:
I bet if I said black people are dirty(Weird to type), I'd get lots of...feedback. But saying Americans are stupid is...ok. Just, blah.

Well, yeah, you would get a lot of feedback because your talking about a race of people. When you say "America is stupid", your talknig about all americans of different races and types so I "guess" thats ok than talknig about a single group.


So, it's ok to generalize/stereotype nationalities/communities/other groups so long as they are not racially homogeneous? "All black-haired people are mean" is an acceptable statement because there are black-haired people from every continent and every "race", right?

I think most people would agree that sweeping generalizations are a bad idea (+1 irony point; lvl up!). When you make these generalizations about people of a particular "race", we call that racism, and racism is bad, folks. How is broadly generalizing about a group of people who happen to, largely by accident of birth, live within arbitrarily designated geopolitical boundaries better?

Attention, citizens, if you live between this sea and that shining sea, you are DUMB.

Infinity has the answer:

your talknig about all americans of different races and types ... [rather than] a single group.
You see, people of a single "race" are all the same, so it's unfair to generalize. But there are so many different kinds of Americans a little generalization couldn't hurt, y'know, too much. [/sarcasm] for slow Americans

*Except, umm, "race" is pretty much an arbitrary construct, too, as far as biology goes. There is as much, if not more, diversity within a given "race" as between them. So if biological/genetic diversity is a feature of both racial and national populations, the vital difference must lie elsewhere... and, well, I could continue with this, but it's my last day at home, and I want to savor the homeness!

So I will just get to the godblasted point:
Stereotyping people based on patterns of residency is just as ridiculous as stereotyping based on eye color or skin color or shoe size (you know what they say about guys with big feet, eh? *nudge nudge*). It does not make you clever or smart (unless you're Chinese; Chinese people are downright brainy and, like, really good at math). It does not make you a keen observer of humanity, a witty political commentator, or a superior being from the planet Anywhere But America (currently 83rd in line to be officially added to the solar system roster).
Now I'm gonna go make an apple pie, so everyone play nice or you won't get any when I'm done.

[Solstis]

I'll, uh, click on the link when I get back.

I'm sure that if I went to the UK, I could find at least 5 people within 5 minutes that are just as stupid. Never, ever, trust statisticians. They just want to get paid.

>"Man, if he's the president, I'd hate to think what other americans are like."

-If you were the representative of the UK, I'd think the same thing. Oh, wait, I was raised to think rationally.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Solstis on 2006-08-23 09:30 ]</font>

[Tweengo]

Yeah we do have stupid people here in the UK. They own PS2s, where hoodies, and are called 'chavs'. They wait outside shops in packs at night, waiting for their next victim to steal money from, smoke and drink, and they swear alot. Thankfully I'm not one of them.

[Lord_Kratos]

this is about canada and america. My friends just recently like yesterday got on the subject somehow about Canada. They said that they hate Canadians. So i ask them why. they said that they just dont like them and that there mean. WTF!?! I have a friend thats canadian on an online game. She is one of the nicest pp i have ever met and she isnt stupid, she never has said ay once except when i asked her to say it for the fun and she doesnt just hate americans for no reason.



So i've found that ppl hear hate canadians cus there mean to us when we call them dumb and stupid all the time. They have no right to call them stupid and dumb cus us americans pretty much started the harassing of them. My frined had said that way back when that they had not been nice and didnt hand over the canadian region like we requested. WTF!?! would you hand ovwer your house if i asked you to. No you wouldnt! some ppl dont think things through first and they're mostly americans in my eyes.

[Tweengo]

What's the point of Americans hating Canadians anyway? I'm sure that if you put a few Canadians and Americans in a room, you'd hardly be able to tell where which is from 'cause the way they talk, to me, is basically the same.

[astuarlen]

And if you cut out their tongues, you probably couldn't tell an American from an Englishman from a Frechman from a Brazilian, eh?

[Lord_Kratos]

yah really i mean come on you canadian haters!

[Lord_Kratos]

yah really i mean come on you canadian haters!

[Lord_Kratos]

yah really i mean come on you canadian haters!

[Lord_Kratos]

yah really i mean come on you canadian haters!

[TheyCallMeJoe]

Wow...I've heard of double posting, but this?

Heh, yeah the statistic didn't really prove much...except to illustrate the stupidity of those 4 people who got it wrong http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif.

[zwandude15]

- I'm American.

- I don't hate Canadians.

- and I really don't care if someone couldn't read a book.

Just be courteous. Besides, they're people too.

[InfinityXXX]

On 2006-08-23 08:54, astuarlen wrote:



On 2006-08-22 22:23, InfinityXXX wrote:


On 2006-08-22 17:33, Saiffy wrote:
I bet if I said black people are dirty(Weird to type), I'd get lots of...feedback. But saying Americans are stupid is...ok. Just, blah.

Well, yeah, you would get a lot of feedback because your talking about a race of people. When you say "America is stupid", your talknig about all americans of different races and types so I "guess" thats ok than talknig about a single group.


So, it's ok to generalize/stereotype nationalities/communities/other groups so long as they are not racially homogeneous? "All black-haired people are mean" is an acceptable statement because there are black-haired people from every continent and every "race", right?

I think most people would agree that sweeping generalizations are a bad idea (+1 irony point; lvl up!). When you make these generalizations about people of a particular "race", we call that racism, and racism is bad, folks. How is broadly generalizing about a group of people who happen to, largely by accident of birth, live within arbitrarily designated geopolitical boundaries better?




Attention, citizens, if you live between this sea and that shining sea, you are DUMB.

Infinity has the answer:

your talknig about all americans of different races and types ... [rather than] a single group.

I'm sorry, but I meant to put the /sarcasm thing in that reply, if you read it closely, you' could've notice how ironic and contradicting it was. Of course, I of all people (a civil rights activist) would know that generalizations of things, whether its races, countries, or cities is dumb.(I argued this in the numerous America sux and Japan is better threads)

Astuarlen, you know me by now, after all the times I talked about people stereotyping, for me to say generalization of this group is good because of blah and blah, would contradict everything I've said in this forum.

I'm sorry If I somehow mislead you. But on that subject he would get a lot of feedback if he said all black people were dirty due to how racially conscious we are. To say America sux, to dishonor your country, is just as bad but for some reason people just don't care if you talk about their country and everyones ready to jump on the hate bandwagon.

On another note: Damn Astuarlen, you came at me with fire.lol I guess you ready to defend your views.

[Danger_Girl]

I have nothing to contribute, but I sure would like a piece of astuarlen's apple pie.

About all I would dare add is stereotyping is as hard wired into our brains as walking and talking. I'm not saying its right. It just is.

Take for example the statistical collection of demographics. There is a reason governments, advertisers, media markets, schools, corporations, criminal investigators, ect...ect..., assemble the characteristics of a population. Size, growth, density, distribution, race, age, height, weight, wealth, it's all recorded and analyzed for targeting specific groups for one reason or another. All of that is based on stereotyping. They might have another word for it like target demographic or target audiance, but it's all the same. Watch the evening news tonight and count the number of pharmaceutical ads there are. They like to advertise then because statistacily speaking, they're better able to reach an older crowd who are more apt to buy what they're selling. There are entire industries (http://www.romedia.us/target/index.htm) built around the concept.

Now granted I'm a little off point here since this discussion has predominantly been focused on stereotyping nationalities and race, but I think I'm accurately reflecting the reality of the situation as a whole. I'm not going to comment specifically on the "are Americans are stupid or not" debate, because that whole conversation is silly. If you're trying to generalize the whole of a population consisting of roughly 298 million people with such a vague word as stupid, you're not going to get anywhere.

One last item to better illustrate my point, and it's 2am here so I apologize if I'm not being articulate. I'm sure you've all seen this map (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2004/politics101/politics101_ecmap.html) of the electoral college results from the 2000 presidential election. Take from it what you will, but to me it speaks volumes on the trends and tendencies within the socioeconomic boundaries of the country. Is it stereotyping to say district A is a blue district and district B is a red? As defined by Random House Dictionary, "A standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group," of course it is. The second question would be is this electoral college map a validation or indication of the accuracy of stereotypes in at least certain circumstances...well thats for you to decide.

I hope I didn't come across as offensive or condesending. And I hope I didn't disqualify myself from some of your apple pie, astuarlen. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Danger_Girl on 2006-08-24 14:11 ]</font>

[DezoPenguin]

I'd like to highlight something Danger_Girl said: "Stereotyping is hard-wired into our brains."

Yep.

Consider this (creationists can skip the rest of this post ^_- ): human beings are primates. Primates are, when push comes to shove, pack animals. (The actual anthropological terms for we human primates is "band," but hey)

Or in other words, while we get on with our daily lives, the biological imperatives in the back of our heads are begging us to divide up the population of humans into "us" and "them," because "them" constitute dangerous competition for "us" for limited food, mates, and other resources.

Prejudice and bigotry is our natural state of being. We have to be taught that prejudice is not only wrong, but isn't suited to the better exploitation and division of the available resources for the good of all. Humans have evolved to have a unique level of control over our environment, and that flips on its head the utility of many of the instinctual imperatives that we've got still buzzing around.

Embrace your cerebral cortex, I say! Reject prejudice!

(By the way, this is why I, though I don't believe in "original sin" in the religious, Adam-and-Eve sense, consider "original sin" to be a kick-ass metaphor for all the instinctual crap we've got in our heads that worked fine for a bunch of apes but not so well for allegedly civilized, tool-using, frontal-lobe-possessing human beings.)

Edit: BTW, I'd like my $5.00. That was a great Language Log link! Twain had it right: "lies, damn lies, and statistics."



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DezoPenguin on 2006-08-25 12:15 ]</font>

[Saiffy]

I'm ignoring all the long posts, cause this rant doesn't mean much to me http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif Just to say what I remembered now

The only really dumb thing that happened down there, was when I needed to tell someone my last name, and I spell it out for people naturally. And well, the lady didn't know what Zed was http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif But I wouldn't even call that dumb http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif Just funny

[saturnihilist]

^That's completely subjective. If you take your Canadians from the right area-and now this sounds like a science experiment-you could be right, but you also have a good chance of hearing French-speaking ones. Also, racism has nothing to do with disliking a nation's people based on something other than race. Now, if you said "I hate white America, and white America only!", you would have some good, ol' racism.


Man, if he's the president, I'd hate to think what other americans are like. Talking about jumpers with our stupid primeminister Bliar<<intended spelling mistake, falling off his bike.
Also, Americans tend to be loud in foreign countries 'cause they think they're the best, 'specially in restaurants.

Yes, the leader should be a reflection of the people, but this fact does not make your statement any less ignorant. First of all, only the slight majority elected him. Secondly, it is believed that only 60.3% of those who could vote actually did. Drawing from this, it could be concluded that a large minority of Americans were too apatheic to care in the first place, and that at least half of America did not want him to become president again. Also, Bush's approval ratings now hover around thirty-five to thirty-nine percent--this number is the mean of several statistics.
What am I trying to say? Bush is nothing like the country he runs. For you to make the statement you did, whether in jest or not, only substantiates the belief a lot of people hold of mindless America-hating. If you can name a reason to hate America-and as with every country, there are plenty-then more power to you.

All in all, nationalism is on a decline; the rainforests are being destroyed; the Congo is in chaos; poor Rwanda; Pluto is no longer a planet.

[saturnihilist]

Also, I was talking about a post WAY up there, not the one right above me.

[Otis_Kat]

On 2006-08-23 11:06, Tweengo wrote:
'cause the way they talk, to me, is basically the same.



Really now? You've never met my relatives then -_- Their "sterotypical" accent is so heavy you'd think they were just making fun of Canadians.

Canadians are fine, 90% of my family is made of native Canadians, besides the afformentioned accent, they are no different from the American side of the family.

Canada does smell funny though, it smells like...like...what's the word I'm looking for?

Clean

[BogusKun]

You see... it's shows like Dave Chappelle, that challenge the system... that allows other races to think it is totally okay to say the "N" word. And other words.

Even little kids can cuss today, and it's OTAY!

[Gaderffii]

On 2006-08-22 21:28, navci wrote:
Interesting piece of information I just acquired:

According to CIA world factbook 2005 America's literacy rate is 97%. Compare to Australia 100%, United Kingdom 99%, Trinidad and Tobago 98.6%. (threw in for random compairson).

Of course it's misleading. Its the bush admin!!!!

[BogusKun]

On 2006-08-30 20:34, Gaderffii wrote:

On 2006-08-22 21:28, navci wrote:
Interesting piece of information I just acquired:

According to CIA world factbook 2005 America's literacy rate is 97%. Compare to Australia 100%, United Kingdom 99%, Trinidad and Tobago 98.6%. (threw in for random compairson).

Of course it's misleading. Its the bush admin!!!!



Totally untrue... 30% of the southerns down here aren't literate.

[Dahilia]

On 2006-08-22 22:27, Shigecki wrote:


On 2006-08-22 17:33, Saiffy wrote:
So, story. I was on vacation to Minneapolis since Saturday morning(btw guys I'm back).

Explained.

Next time ask your mom who's more stupid, Americans or someone who vacations in Minnesota. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



THANK YOU.

[Kent]

On 2006-08-31 21:03, BogusKun wrote:


On 2006-08-30 20:34, Gaderffii wrote:

On 2006-08-22 21:28, navci wrote:
Interesting piece of information I just acquired:

According to CIA world factbook 2005 America's literacy rate is 97%. Compare to Australia 100%, United Kingdom 99%, Trinidad and Tobago 98.6%. (threw in for random compairson).

Of course it's misleading. Its the bush admin!!!!



Totally untrue... 30% of the southerns down here aren't literate.



Woah, really? It's up to 30% now?



On 2006-09-16 14:02, Dahilia wrote:


On 2006-08-22 22:27, Shigecki wrote:


On 2006-08-22 17:33, Saiffy wrote:
So, story. I was on vacation to Minneapolis since Saturday morning(btw guys I'm back).

Explained.

Next time ask your mom who's more stupid, Americans or someone who vacations in Minnesota. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



THANK YOU.



Hey... Minnesota's the nicest place I've ever been. I used to come here for vacation all the time.

[Skorpius]

lol Saiffy. You're Canadian.

[ShinMaruku]

American's stupid? Nah that's just people in gneral. Now if you can use less educate dthatn the rest, you'd have a point.

[Eauijhkuu]

People tend to generalize things that they can't understand.

Culture differences, sadly, are one of those things that cause people to fly into war about.