Rant - Sega Bears Responsibility for SOME Cheating

[Psyclone]

M’kay, I’ve been very entertained by a number of various topics about cheaters and cheating in general. The flamewars and barely-literate typing just make ‘em funnier than hell.

One question that seems to rise, in one form or another, is, “Why do cheaters have to ruin it for everyone else?”

In general, these discussions are weighted heavily against the cheaters. Very few topics or replies ever take the game designers to task. And when they do, there is no criticism (that I have read) for the actual root cause(s) of a particular type of cheating – item duplication and “generation”.

Speaking only about GC/PSO, I see two primary problems in console and game design. The first is related to supply and demand. The second is related to a hardware issue that is compounded by software restrictions.

Where there is demand, there will be supply. When you create ultra powerful items for a game like PSO (e.g. Tsumikiri J-Sword), you create a demand for them. When you restrict the supply below the demand, someone will find away to “manufacture” a supply, even if it is just for themselves. The basic flaw in the game design was creating items with insanely low probabilities of finding them or finding the components to make them in the first place.

The standard counter-argument for this is that some items are too powerful to be readily available. Particularly in a multi-player setting, too many people with these items unbalances the game. Therefore, they should be exceptionally hard to get (rare) in order to severely limit how many there are in circulation.

Answer: Then the item is too powerful to put into the game to begin with.

Putting them in the game creates an instant, and huge, demand amongst hardcore gamers to acquire that weapon. Making it so improbable that anyone will ever find/create it that only a tiny percentage of players can ever get those items legitimately is just begging to have someone find a way to manufacture those weapons.

Yeah. It certainly encourages folks to keep playing the game, averaging thousands of hours on it, but those dedicated to finding something like the TJS legitimately are the hardest-core of hardcore gamers. The rest of the playerbase are just not gonna bother trying… or they’ll find a way to get it illegitimately.

Similarly, creating items that are only available online creates a demand for those items offline. Players who lack the resources or the inclination to go online are forever barred from legitimately creating Mag Cell mags on their own, for instance. Sure, they could trade with a friend for the Mag Cell of their wet dreams, but what happens when their friends are all offline only as well?

Again, while it certainly encourages players to go online, not everyone has the wherewithal to do so, even if they have the inclination. And, sure, it also encourages item trading, but, again, that’s impractical if the “traderbase” is offline-only. Like the super-rare items, online-only items encourage offline-only players to find ways to “manufacture” them on their own because there may be no other way for them to get those items legitimately.

While this does not condone the actions of cheaters, Sega, though officially in denial, bears a huge degree of responsibility for creating the demand for manufactured and duped items. One of two things happened here. Either the PSO game designers honestly did not foresee the unintended consequences of super-powerful, super-rare items and online-only items OR they knew exactly what would happen and made them anyway.

If the former is true, then the game designers were incredibly naïve and/or stupid. Either way, they should have been fired a long time ago. If the latter case is true, then the company has no room to complain or bitch about cheaters manufacturing and duping weapons. After all, they knowingly invited it.

The second issue is the inability to copy character data from one memory-card to another. This prevents players from creating back-ups of their characters. Games like PSO, especially for hardcore gamers, ultimately represent thousands of combined hours of effort on players to reach certain levels and acquire rare items. To lose all of that effort and achievement due to data corruption can be more than frustrating.

Ask Sega how often they back-up their game servers, billing servers, and game development computers. They would never risk completely losing thousands of hours of development or hundreds-of-thousands of billing transactions. Yet, they made it so that we cannot easily back-up our thousands-of-hours of game achievements. By doing so, again, they created a demand for tools that will circumnavigate their copy-protection. (I’ll admit, I’m looking for some myself for this very purpose.)

Ostensibly, it’s to prevent players from easily duplicating items and characters. But that’s a copout. It’s both lazy and stupid.

There’s a “flag” in the PSO file that tells the GC operating system that the file cannot be copied, thereby preventing a memory card to memory card transfer in the GC memory card management application.

It would have taken very little effort to create their own “copy” utility within PSO to create back-up copies of the files. The utility could very easily “flag” the back-up as a copy and assign a unique, hidden “activation” code. If you try to load a character from a back-up, PSO could issue a message to load the active memory card instead.

Then, when PSO tries to read a file and finds data corruption, it could display the activation code along with the “data corruption” message. Enter that activation code on the back-up memory card and the file is set to “active” allowing you to continue playing and minimize lost progress…

I’m sure it would have been cake for the braintrust at Sega.

Again, Sega bears a huge burden of responsibility. By not providing the players a convenient and easy way to back-up our character files, they created demand for tools that will allow just that.

[T0m]

The reason for cheating is nothing else than human nature, my friend. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif
There will always be people who'll try for the easy way, in any setting. And there will always be people who are curious, and try to break the rules, or want to tresspass any set boundary. The last group will tinker around, looking for glitches, or going through the game's data, and eventually finding things the first group finds helpful.

This goes for games, but also for everything in life. Even as a little kid we are usually busy seeing how far we can go, what parents will allow, and what not. And then seeing if we can go over those boundaries.
Later we test teachers and their patience. Then we might be trying to get the most out of a job, with the least effort. Or exploring the boundaries of the law, and some will go over those.

You argue that making the TJS so powerful, and hard to obtain, is an invitation for cheaters finding other ways to get it.
But, like often stated in these forums, the TJS isn't the most powerful weapon of it's type. No, the fact that it's hard to get, is why it's desireable.
If the effort would be removed, then it's just another sword, if better than average.
And the only way to remove the desire to cheat for any item, would be to make all items readily available from start. Otherwise there will always be someone who deems it too much work to get it.

But making the game like that would remove one of its biggest charms; hunting for items.

About your second point; it is an inconvenience not to be able to copy the data. (This goes more for all games that don't even allow the data to be moved to another card http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif).
Again, saying that because of this, Sega practically makes players cheat, would be a bit of a poor excuse.

Your comparison between the time we invest on our PSO data, and Sega's time for development and keeping track of billings, is faulty, obviously. While the game data represents a real worth to the owner, the worth is only that.
Developing games costs real money, and, for a developer like Sega, a lot of money. And those billing-servers had better be reliable! When there's a problem with those, it is very damaging for Sega.

Having said that, I'll repeat that not being able to copy, is inconvenient.
We shouldn't hold ST responsible for the safety of our memory cards though. When used with care, it will be fine ~.~
The biggest risks are meeting cheaters online, or having multiple power failures (09...). For one, you should hold cheaters responsible (so cheaters make people cheat o.o). And for the last, well, fate, or bad karma?
Ultimately, 100% safety is nonexistant, much like our goverment reminds us ever so often.

What we do after something goes wrong, is always up to us.
After corruption, some will take a deep breath, and start over. And relive all the fun they had the first time.
Others might go for an faster way back.
It's all good and defendable, but whatever we choose, it's never forced on us.

[Psyclone]

On 2006-09-26 13:06, T0m wrote:
The reason for cheating is nothing else than human nature, my friend. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif
There will always be people who'll try for the easy way, in any setting. . .
I won’t deny that in the least. Notice, please, that I was not ranting about why people cheat. Rather, I merely observed why Sega bears some responsibility for some cheating.


. . . You argue that making the TJS so powerful, and hard to obtain, is an invitation for cheaters finding other ways to get it.
But, like often stated in these forums, the TJS isn't the most powerful weapon of it's type. No, the fact that it's hard to get, is why it's desireable. . .
Let’s see. Nope. I just reread my rant and I never claimed the TJS was the most powerful weapon of it’s type. Rather, I used it as one example of super-rare, super-powerful items of the sort I was discussing.

You are right, however, that for some the rarity of the TJS is what makes it desireable. For the most dedicated gamers that, and bragging rights, are reason enough to put out the effort to find it legitimately.

However, you are also simply wrong. That is not the only reason it is desireable. While it may not be the “most powerful weapon of it’s type”, it certaily is one of the most powerful weapons of it’s type and, arguably, one of the most powerful weapons in the game. Consequently, considering the difficulty of acquiring it legitimately, the power-curve boost will entice some people to seek the “easy way” by illegitimately acquiring it.

I reitterate, if the weapon is so powerful that more than a tiny fraction of the players having it will unbalance the game… thus necessitating that it be so difficult to find that the average player may as well forget ever seeing one… then it is too powerful to be put in the game in the first place.


. . . If the effort would be removed, then it's just another sword, if better than average. . .
I never suggested removing the effort. Rather, I made a simple observation – putting super-powerful items in the game and then making them so super-rare as to be almost unattainable (by the vast majority of players) legitimately creates a demand for illigitimate means of attaining them.


. . . And the only way to remove the desire to cheat for any item, would be to make all items readily available from start. Otherwise there will always be someone who deems it too much work to get it. . .
Yep, but…

Tell me, how may fewer people would “hack” the TJS if it and the SJS were, say, 25% less powerful, unsealing the TJS only took 10,000 kills, and the SJS droprate was, say, 1/500 Gi Gue’s for three different Section ID’s?

Sure. Some people will hack it, but fewer would be inclined to do so while more would be inclined to put out the effort to acquire it legitimately.

The argument that “someone always will so leave it alone” is just weak. Yes. Someone will always try to take the easy route. However, the more powerful and rare the item, the greater the enticement. You cannot eliminate the cheating, but you can moderate it by reducing the incentive.


. . . About your second point; it is an inconvenience not to be able to copy the data. (This goes more for all games that don't even allow the data to be moved to another card http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif).
Again, saying that because of this, Sega practically makes players cheat, would be a bit of a poor excuse. . .
I never said Sega “makes players cheat”, not even “practically”. Rather, I said that by denying the ability to create back-ups Sega created a demand for methods to circumvent copy-protection to make back-ups. Creating a demand is not synonymous with “making” someone cheat to meet the demand.

Again, how many fewer people would be using third-party tools to copy character files, game data, and/or duplicate weapons for “back-ups” if Sega provided a utility to do just that?

Show of hands… How many legit players have used an AR or some other method to create items you found legitimately but lost due to data corruption in order to “recover” your effort?
How many legit players have used an AR or some other method to create and “hack” a replica of a lost character in order to “recover” your effort?
How many legit players use some method to copy game files for back-ups?
How many legit players would do so?
Now… How many of you with your hands up would not have done or would not do so IF PSO included back-up utilities?


… While the game data represents a real worth to the owner, the worth is only that
Developing games costs real money, and, for a developer like Sega, a lot of money…
As a software developer and systems consultant, I am well aware of the R&D, marketing, and production costs for developing a new product and getting it to market. As an avid gamer I am also well aware of the hundred and thousands (by some) of hours of effort invested by gamers in their games, and even single characters.

Investments and value, however, can be measured in more than just dollars.

The gamer’s time alone is a significant investment and represents hours that they could have been doing something “more” productive. Nevermind the real costs of purchasing the game system, peripherals, the software, paying for the electricity to run the various devices, and, for “legit” online players, web-access costs including HL fees.

The fact that Sega invests more in terms of real hours and money means next to nothing to the gamer. The gamer is concerned with his own investment, in terms of time, effort, and money. The real value to him outweighs any considerations for the investments put forth by Sega.

And this is not unique to gamers. In general, my company’s clients have far less money, time, and data invested in our software than we do. However, if there’s a software crash or they lose data, you can bet they’re only concerned about their investment and interests, not my company’s. Thus, we code our software to make it as convenient and easy to recover as possible by. We certainly do not prevent them from backing up our software or their data.


… Having said that, I'll repeat that not being able to copy, is inconvenient.
We shouldn't hold ST responsible for the safety of our memory cards though. When used with care, it will be fine ~.~ …
I never said, suggested, or hinted that we should hold Sega, “responsible for the safety of our memory cards”.

(That’s at least the third time you’ve put words in my mouth. If you have to make up things I’ve said in order to refute them, something is woefully wrong.)

Providing a utility to conveniently and legitimately back-up our character data on separate memory cards is far from taking responsibility for the safety of our memory cards or our data. It would empower customers to take exercise that responsibility (backing-up data) for themselves. If they neglact to take advantage of it, then that’s entirely their fault.

However, Sega did not. Rather, Sega made it impossible to legitimately back-up our data. Basically, they prohibited users from taking full responsibility for their data by preventing back-up copies. In doing so, they created a demand (from users like me) for third-party tools to do it instead.


. . . The biggest risks are meeting cheaters online, or having multiple power failures (09...). For one, you should hold cheaters responsible (so cheaters make people cheat o.o). And for the last, well, fate, or bad karma? . . .
I agree. Cheaters should be held responsible.

However, the game designers also bear a degree of responsibility for some cheating by creating demand for bootleg items and products. There would be fewer cheaters if there weren’t such super-powerful and super-rare items, online-only items, and convenient means to legitimately back-up data.
Good game designers know this and take these things into account. So, either ST was naïve or stupid or they flat didn’t care.

Or they did it knowingly and intentionally. How much revenue has been generated by AR and other “cheat” devices? How much of that has Sega received in “royalties” or undisclosed licensing or developing fees?

Perhaps I’m a bit too cynical, but I highly doubt that companies manage to “break” copyrighted code in order to produce and profit from bolt-on products like AR designed to manipulate the games without legal repurcussions or some sort of agreement with the original manufacturer.

You can bet your ass if someone found a way to “break” MicroSoft’s code to produce unlicensend applications to dramatically manipulate how Windows works they’d be fined and sued into oblivion.


. . . Ultimately, 100% safety is nonexistant, much like our goverment reminds us ever so often. . .
Again I don’t disagree. However, I never suggested Sega should make it “100% safe” either. Speaking in terms of data back-ups, it is simply irresponsible, as a software developer, to prevent users from backing up their data. I never suggested they should do it for us (though that’s exactly what happens on server-side games like BB).

As a user, I was pissed when I first tried and found out that I cannot copy my PSO data to another card to back it up. Had I known that beforehand, I wouldn’t have started the game. Now I’m too far into it to give it up. Consequently, I’m looking for other means to back up my data. I’m certain I’m not unique in this regard.

Once I get such a product and have backed-up my data, then I will officially be a "cheater". And while Sega will not have forced or made me cheat, ST has certainly encouraged and invited it by making it impossible for me to legitimately back up my data.

What would happen if MicroSoft or Apple made it so that users could not copy their documents, photos, and other forms of “data” to make back ups?

[KodiaX987]

You're thinking too hard.

Assholes cheat because they want to. Cautious players back-up their characters for safety. Idiots put them in the same boat and crucify them.

Pow, end of story.

[T0m]

You said a few times that I put words in your mouth.
Each time I only tried to recap what you stated in my own words. So, in my view, even if you didn't use the exact wording, then it seemed to me that it was what you meant, or insinuated. I'll apologize for all instances where I didn't get what you meant. I don't, however, enjoy discussing semantics. I try to address the message, not nit-pick about words.

For some of your points goes that we clearly have a different view on them. And discussing it more is not going to change that. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

There's just one thing that tells me you lost the context of the whole issue.


The gamer’s time alone is a significant investment and represents hours that they could have been doing something “more” productive.
This instantly reminded me of someone who's, on another PSO forum, always ridiculing players that they see PSO as their job. I almost would think that you see PSO like one.
It's a game. And we play games in our free time,to relax and have fun.
Now, I'm not saying that losing any games data should be fine because of this, but
The gamer’s time alone is a significant investment and the reward for this investment is the fun that we had. If playing doesn't equal fun to you, then you should play something else.
It boggles my mind when a player curses for having to start over. (There are exceptions to this, of course). Didn't you have a blast the first time when you raised a character? Why wouldn't you enjoy it again?
You didn't? Then you should indeed
have been doing something “more” productive.

I think you're focusing too much on this issue. Just take a step back, and think it over once more.
For your initial question, KodiaX987 is spot-on.
Much better than the long stories we wrote. That's Occam's razor for ya. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[CupOfCoffee]

I pretty much agree with T0m and Kodiax. While it's true that Sonic Team doesn't provide any sort of protection against losing stuff on PSO, it's also true that they've never done that. By now, PSO is an obscure enough title played by a small enough group of returning gamers that almost everyone is aware of what they're getting into. We all remember FSOD and BSOD and corruption and NOLing and every instance of bad business Sega has committed by refusing to deal with these obviously debilitating PSO problems. Fool us once, shame on Sega. Fool us continuously for six years, shame on us. I think by now, it's the PSO player's fault if s/he experiences PSO-related heartache because of the longstanding tradition of Sonic Team's lousiness. Maybe if they'd ever showed the slightest effort to listen to the player base, I'd say we could be entitled to expect more.

As for the TJ-Sword being too powerful... no. That's kind of foolish. First off, it's not terribly more powerful than the other top-notch swords in the game like Zanba and Red Sword. Sure, it's stronger, but not by such a factor that it makes the game automatically easy or unbalanced. It's just a sword type weapon with a high ATP score. Heck, a Spread Needle can probably kill more enemies faster. Second, all of that is beside the point because it's just not logical to claim that Sega should share any of the blame for cheating by making cool items. It just... doesn't add up.


"Well of course I shoplifted! Those Doritos looked good! The chip makers have to share part of the blame for making those chips look tasty."

Would you rather every item be completely boring and unappealing, available to be found in easy mode at a 9/10 drop rate from its monster, and usable by every character class? Of course not. It's fun to think that there's always something rarer you could find, something tougher you could hunt, an item that could probably one-up what you've got currently equipped. Probably never being able to find it is half the fun because it means the game is never truly over. To suggest that the creators should take steps to make sure that an open-ended game such as PSO does at some point end for the player just doesn't seem like a thoroughly explored suggestion.

[AzureBlaze]

This is one of the best rants I've seen in quite some time.
Well thought, and well worded. I agree with lots of it, and I've experienced lots of it as well.

"Your memory card treated with care, will be fine"
NO NO NO. If this was the issue, there'd be no need for backups illegal or not. All you'd need to do was not drop it/abuse it, or try to cheat with it and everything's fine. So long as you're over the age of 7 and law-abiding, this is no prob.

I can't begin to tell you how many good friends I lost forever because they corrupt for the 3rd / #th time and simply quit.

When you do 800hrs onto something, get it erased, then do it again 500 hrs, erase and do it one more time...you quit. Doublesave fiasco? NOL fiasco? (yes nol was kinda-avoidable if you turn your system off fast enough) but when your data's not in your own hands and you can't recover it, "shame on US" is totally right. Avoid shame on us by quitting, because if they're going to treat you bad, and you know it, you're a fool for staying. The beef was that deletions were 95% not the user's fault, and nothing could be done to prevent them.

I did start off legit, but lost my lvl 100 (ondcpso, thats all it went up to till ver2) with like 400hrs to an inconvenient D/c, I then gathered every dupe in the game because I'd of quit otherwise. I wasn't going to do all that work over for no reason.

The 'flag' idea was excellent. If it knows you're corrupt it can sure as hell cook up a number. Too bad they didn't implement anything like this. That it generates a code ONLY when you corrupt. This stops dupers and eliminates the need for backups. Of course it opens another window for hackers to try and hack it, but it also reduces the temptation to try.

As for 'too hard content'
It IS good to have stuff that's awesomely hard to get. But not good to have stuff that's so hard to get that no one ever gets it. The solution is to have something that's damm hard to get, (but do-able!) and to keep it from being boring or "never really over" like Coffee says, use dynamic content like they're doing with PSU. ALL NEW weps or things you could DL once you got them, and use. That would truly prevent it from getting dull/being over, without the need for "impossible items". There's always a challenge, always something cool to shoot for.

My view was that ST was just naive, after all, pso was like the first online console game. Their mistake came when they saw what happened, and then didn't act correctly. There were a zillion 'versions' but no one figured out serverside save till BB. They had so many chances to do big improvements, then just didn't take 'em.

Yea, some cheaters will always cheat. That's THEIR fun. It's not fun for them unless they're going outside the rules, or peeking at the code. But they're not the majority. Same with lazy folks who just want a pretty slide-show and not a real game or challenge. They're alawys gonna cheat even if everything is fair-n-square.

But if game designers:
-set up good fair rules,
-make good on promises for dynamic content,
-don't frusterate their userbase with glitchy or obnoxious garbage, (we WERE gonna give you this nice prize but the code's broke so ummm n/m)
-keep everyone safe within reason of their powers (saves wise),
-maintain their actual game by stamping out harmful people (people who hack to kill others or to ruin the experience of others)
-enforce laws they set up

then yea you'd have hella lot less cheating. Outrageous circumstance leads to ordinary people hxing all over the place just to lead an ordinary and fun existance.

[hollowtip]

If the effort would be removed, then it's just another sword, if better than average.
And the only way to remove the desire to cheat for any item, would be to make all items readily available from start. Otherwise there will always be someone who deems it too much work to get it.

But making the game like that would remove one of its biggest charms; hunting for items.

And I think that's what Psyclone is missing from the overall equation. Like it or not, what's most appealing to fans of the PSO Universe (no pun intended) is the search in acquiring rare and powerful items. You subtract this staple that the series has been known for and the overall incentive to play diminishes. Yeah you can universally equalize drop rates or make weapons easily accessible from the start and lessen the impact of cheating, but you also let go of an element that has majorly contributed to the game's success.

Tinkering with how the distribution mechanisms work for rare items is one thing, but completely eliminating desirability would be highly damaging to the game's core components.

I'm all for barriers that prevent cheating, but when a key ingrediant has been substituted or taken out, the formula isn't the same.



and the reward for this investment is the fun that we had. If playing doesn't equal fun to you, then you should play something else.
It boggles my mind when a player curses for having to start over. (There are exceptions to this, of course). Didn't you have a blast the first time when you raised a character? Why wouldn't you enjoy it again?
You didn't? Then you should indeed

I don't think his objective in posting this rant is to redicule a game that he receives no enjoyment from. He's just expressing his frustration of how easily each PSO incarnation becomes exploited, and tries to offer solutions on closing loopholes. When cheating becomes a significant presence in the online environment is exactly when you lose the immersion. I don't consider massive online games my job, nor can I play them that often anymore, but the immersion is what provides me with enjoyment.

I have more thoughts on actually detracting cheating without fiddling with the game's skeleton (which I've done before) but I'm tired and will post them later.

[Nai_Calus]

"What's most appealing" to me isn't rare hunting, Hollowtip, so don't presume to speak for all fans of PSO, kthx.

Actually, I hate rare hunting. I hate levelling. I hate the endless stupid grind. Wrong game, yeah, I know, but what I always liked PSO or any other online game for... Was people. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Legits, cheaters, whatever.

So when I've found shit and it goes missing due to ST's wonderfully punitive game design? Damn straight I break out the hex editor and bring it back into existance. Whoops, a power outage while I was changing equipment ate my entire set of support equipment. Well, there are ways around THAT, let's see, time to figure out the value for hot pink.

Now, I've lost eight characters but that's not ST's fault. Or mine. Whoever packed the consoles last time we moved, the bastard lost two of my goddamned fucking memory cards. Thankfully it was my secondary cards and the primary made it safely. But I want my fucking c-mode HUcl and my RAcast and my other FOmar back. (Wow, you'd think it'd be so fucking easy to take something, and PUT IT IN THE SAME GODDAMNED BOX as the stuff it's with. Actually, people my dad knows that I don't that I only semi-trust helped pack while I was at work. I bet the fuckers stole them. Bitches.)

But you know what that makes me want to do? Get another memory card, and... Yup. You guessed it. There are AR codes for levels other than 200, and you can just create them with the missing equipment...

Though, that assumes caring enough to be more than Fucking Annoyed. 'Cause the people aspect? That's kind of gone these days.