Bullseye! (Talk about Ranger here!) [Out of Date] [Archive] - Page 3

Cross

Nov 29, 2006, 06:30 AM

While that's helpful, I think you end up discarding a lot of useful information by just checking raw damage.

Just because I'm bored and nerdy, I've been comparing how the damage on various weapons compares, using the damage formula posted earlier in this thread (which seems to be correct; I haven't seen any contradictory results, and I've been able to use it to predict the damage I'll do).

For anybody who missed it:
((Total ATP * ATP modifier) - Enemy DFP)/5 * (Elemental modifier + 0.07)
If you want to modify this for damage over time, you need to add in a firing rate and the number of shots. I arbitrarily set Rifles as a firing rate of 1, and found that Longbows are 0.67, Dual Handguns are 0.75, Shotguns are 0.5 (I think I ended up with Rifles that are a bit slower, and Shotguns that are a bit faster than the numbers you got).

Provided you keep the same level and equipment, all of that is going to stay constant except for Enemy DFP, so that's x. To compare the point at which enemy DFP makes one weapon stronger than another, you just have to find the point of intersection.

Eventually, if you reduce it, you end up with a larger 'ATP' figure and an x term with a coefficient, on both sides. As an example, let's put 5* Rifles versus Shotguns on a level 50 Cast level 10 Ranger with level 20 PAs, since that's generally what's available in PSU US right now:

418 ATP (Natural ATP)
32 ATP (Perpa/Power)
317 ATP (Vullseye) / 63 ATP (Shigga Amza)
Rifle PA: 140% ATP modifier, 13% Elemental modifier
Shotgun PA: 135% ATP modifier, 9% Elemental modifier

[((418 + 317 + 32)*1.4) - x] * 1 * 1 * (1.13 + 0.07) = [((418 + 63 + 32)*1.35) - x] * 0.5 * 4 * (1.09 + 0.07)
Reduces to
1289 - 1.2x = 1607 - 2.32x
1.12x = 318
x = 284

In other words, the Shotgun is going to deal more damage up until the enemy has 284 DFP, which is probably at about the upper limit of enemy DFP in the current A-missions.

Mind you this doesn't take into account Status Effects, which are obviously very important, nor does it take into account that you can't exactly stand in one spot and point-blank spam a Shotgun like you can with a Rifle, since you'll get killed, but it's pretty interesting.

Also note that your character's natural ATP is very important to the Shotgun. If you go to a Human Ranger, the point of intersection is only 235 DFP, and on a Newman, only 163 DFP.

This whole thing gets a lot more interesting when you add more weapons in. The coefficient that ends up on the x term is an indicator of which weapons benefit most from high ATP. I fudged the numbers a bit, but I assumed that Grenade Launchers are about equal to Shotguns in attack speed, and Cards are about equal to Dual Handguns. Those may or may not be right, but they seem reasonable. The numbers you get at PA level 30 are:

Rifles - 1.3
Shotgun - 3.0
Dual Handguns - 1.97
Grenade Launcher - 2.5
Longbow - 0.92
Card - 2.97

Cards surprised me. Assuming I have the firing rate correct there, those just might be the ranged weapon of choice for most general use, if you're shooting for bullet damage.

Card versus Shotgun on a level 60 F Cast Guntechter versus Fortegunner, using 9* weapons and Mega/Power:

2.97 (1172 - x) = 3 (1059 - x)
3481 - 2.97x = 3177 - 3x
304 = -0.03x

It's close, but that being negative means that an enemy would actually have to have less than zero DFP before the less damaging weapon becomes the more damaging one. Set x to zero and obviously the Card comes out on top - The card will always deal more damage than the Shotgun.

Run it with Card versus Rifle:

2.97 (1172 - x) = 1.3 (1139 - x)
3481 - 2.97x = 2369 - 1.3x
1112 = 1.67x
x = 666 DFP

Check it against a Fortegunner with Dual Handguns, or another Guntechter with a Longbow, and the DFP required will be over 900.

The only weapon that seems to deal more damage on a regular basis is a Fortegunner with a Grenade Launcher:

2.97 (1172 - x) = 2.5 (1909 - x)
3481 - 2.97x = 4772 - 2.5x
1291 = -0.47x

And the only reason this works is that the AoE of a Granade Launcher can hit four enemies. Single-target, the Card reigns supreme.

Of course, I may very well have done all of this for nothing since I just took a guess at attack speeds for Cards and Grenade Launchers, for the most part, but unless they're way off, most of this should still be relevant.

It's not like this is the whole story; it completely ignores Status Effects which are still likely to be just as important as your damage, if not moreso, it assumed that you can just shoot over and over without worry about moving or getting in range, which obviously isn't always the case, and is less applicable to some guns than others. It doesn't take misses and critical hits into account, mostly because I don't know anything about them, but also because they could make things into a giant pain in the ass. The nature of the combat engine means that you can't account for every possibility in any case, but under ideal conditions it's nice to see what your weapons can do. If nothing else, this has me salivating over being able to use Cards.

Cry0

Nov 29, 2006, 07:46 AM

I just want to say that, now i've played offline as a ranger too, I must say I can understand at what people used to say about rangers not dealing enough damage, being underpowered, needing a lot of money etc. But I reckon they are 1) more of a group person, and 2) their power probably doesnt come to their own until a/s rank difficulty.

But bullets over lvl 21 sure do make up for any damage shortage you did before that. I mean heck, I love the lv 28 ice bullets point blank to the face. Just cant get enough of that http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Itsuki

Nov 29, 2006, 08:09 AM

On 2006-11-28 22:29, Alisha wrote:

Answering things not in order, woo!

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bows start at 15% so they should max out at about 45%.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i was refering to the elemental % that appears on your weapon. they both level when a bullet levels but are not inter connected. also the thing you mentioned about bil de vear is a completely different story because guns will always do half damage aginst them. i'm currently at odds about ranger because while i enjoy the job im really not a good team player. i like to be self sufficient so i dont have to depend on others much. i also dont like others depending on me and i sometimes find hunters to be dull and boring. so i'm kinda lost right now.

There aren't any large monsters that don't take half from bullets. Now, assuming you did find a monster with 15k+ hp that wasn't resistant to bullets, you'd still deal more with a fire dealing gun.

EDIT: I forgot about tengohg. But you'd probalby be using dark bullets vs them, and you usually fight those two at a time.

Now, as for elemental percents, lets make a chart:
Two handed:
Rifle 6 -> 13 -> 23
Shotgun 4 -> 9 -> 13
Dualies 4 -> 12 -> 24
Bow 19 -> 25 -> 30

Laser 6 -> 11 -> 16
Grenade 9 -> 13 -> 18

One handed:
Handgun 5 -> 13 -> 19
Mechgun 4 -> 7 -> 10

Crossbow 3 -> 9 -> 15
Card 17 -> 21 -> 25

As you can see, they're not very linear.

But who knows on the firing rate of cards... That sounds pretty broken. I mean, they're good, but I don't htink they're that good. Did you time it to the video of me shooting on youtube or something?

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-11-29 05:11 ]

Cross

Nov 29, 2006, 08:22 AM

On 2006-11-29 05:09, Itsuki-chan wrote:
But who knows on the firing rate of cards... That sounds pretty broken. I mean, they're good, but I don't htink they're that good. Did you time it to the video of me shooting on youtube or something?

Yeah, that was the best I had to do, so I sort of had to eyeball it. There were only a few times where it looked like you were mashing on the fire button, too, so it's really just an estimate. I'm probably off, but unless I totally missed the mark, the high damage seems to make sense.

The best justification I can think of is that Cards are simple designed to be effective weapons when used by a Fortechter. When you put it into the hands of a class that's already suited to riddling things full of bullets, I can see how it might end up being stronger than you'd expect.

Edit: What seems to put it into perspective to me is to realize that at 3 bullets per card shot, if they can fire off three shots in the time it takes a Shotgun to fire 2 (which definitely seems reasonable), then they'll fire 9 bullets total in the time it takes a Shotgun to fire 10, except every shot has 100-150 more ATA, and 150 or so more ATP.

Edit 2: Although if you've solved the broken video card issue, you could try walking into a mission and just seeing how many shots you can fire off in 60 seconds. If a Card can fire somewhere around 75 when you mash the hell out of the fire button, that's the figure I used.

[ This Message was edited by: Cross on 2006-11-29 05:31 ]

panzer_unit

Nov 29, 2006, 10:59 AM

On 2006-11-29 03:30, Cross wrote:
nor does it take into account that you can't exactly stand in one spot and point-blank spam a Shotgun like you can with a Rifle, since you'll get killed

Oh yes you can http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Ice/Lightning status effects and back-shots (good bursts of damage at least) FTW. Also, against a large group of monsters I find it easy to make almost every shotgun bullet count from normal gunning ranges.

Since I like 'em, it sucks how Bows take a hockey stick to the knees once you hit the high-end skills. From levels 1-20 they're awesome, then you only get a BS 5% element boost at 21+ and rifles catch right up. OTOH: the free damage from ignoring enemy DFP is probably pretty significant on S rank monsters.

EDIT - just thinking about the cards / crossbows / shotguns balance... shotguns look like they got a rough deal, but they can still tag statuses faster with the 5-way spread, and get the maximum value out of any friendly buffs/debuffs floating around (you see the damage difference x5 instead of x3).

[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2006-11-29 08:11 ]

Shadow_Wing

Nov 29, 2006, 02:03 PM

On 2006-11-29 03:30, Cross wrote:
Nerdy Rant

Hehe I posted that info then saw that formula lol, but there are indeed a lot of variables not taken into account. Ideal situations is only what we can theoretically think up, but actual experience always will come up on top http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif.

Itsuki

Nov 29, 2006, 02:40 PM

To add to our current arguement, I'd like to bring up the issue of shotguns and ATA. Simply put, they don't have any. To elaborate a bit though, they have the lowest ata of all guns (not really by much though) and a significantly lower ATA mod on their PAs than all other guns (because it stops increasing at level 20 / 60%).

In S-rank, its hard to hit things with a shotgun even as a cast. This is going to effectively lower the DPS of the weapon.

I still don't have a new video card, so I can't test myself. Perhaps I'll try on someone else's computer, technically PSU was installed on an external hd.

As for StillOffline:
Dizas and Rentis are questionable, not on the JP servers yet, so I don't really know how good or not good they are. Everything else looks good though, it might actually be good to leave open for one more attack tech, but perhaps not.

All 6 for rifle sounds a bit excessive, but if you really like rifle, I'm not stopping you. Personally, I think its more advantageous to get more dualies and less rifle with guntecher, but in reality, it won't matter for a long time.

Everything else seems pretty good. I'm not a big fan of mech guns, and having crossbows and cards, you may not need another offhand weapon.

I personally don't see a point in giresta.

Lastly, No melee at all may not be a good idea. Personally, I switch to dagger/saber a lot. I think you should always have a melee weapon to fall back on. You only really need to take one. Both daggers and sabers have a launching PA and a damage dealing PA on the japanese servers right now. Especially when soloing, this can be a huge advantage.

panzer_unit

Nov 29, 2006, 03:01 PM

So "dump shotgun" to anyone who's going to a class that gets the 1h alternatives?

I mean, if a Cast ForteGunner can't make something hit decently, that's a pretty clear sign everyone else should totally forget about it.

etlitch

Nov 29, 2006, 05:11 PM

Shots are more like a "must have party to work" weapon already now due to its crappy ATA. You really need someone else to pull aggro so you can shoot things from behind you really want shots to be usefull.

StillOffline

Nov 29, 2006, 07:49 PM

shadow wing, i would like to say that even though i think your data is correct, i dont think its going to be very helpful in the long run. a ranger would always be using a PA on their weapon, and as they noted, the ATA wasnt even factored into your numbers. a shotguns real dps is most likely about 1/3 less. and this is just with basic ranger, the experts have different atp and ata bonus's, not to mention if you had access to them, you would be using the strongest grade possible, so it isnt really practical to be judging the "best possible" guns when you most likely wont be using equal grades.

thanks for the input itsuki. it seems everyone has moons nowadays, and they dont die too terribly often, it was mostly the regen that i wasnt sure about on giresta. for the rifle, i just wanted the capability to land any SE if necessary, and do the most damage on bosses (who cant have an SE). and i just like mechs b/c they are cool, and its only 2 PAs total.

Alisha

Nov 30, 2006, 12:37 AM

why are we only talking about big monsters here itsuki? as for tengoughs i find myself very resistant to the idea of using anything other than ice on them because i hate the idea of standing around while others do the work for me after placing a debuff.as for shotguns you can always find a way to make them work,perhaps zodial/zodeel? is there a zodial item? offline they only have items for shifta deband and retier. the more i learn the more i think i may end up ultimately hating rangers online. its a shame really because i love rangers but cant stomach the reliance on others that they have. now looking at those elemental % itsuki post makes me wonder what the hell sega was thinking it's like they are trying to say forget doing damage with guns the elemental %'s of all guns excpt bows are nerfed compared to offline mode and i just dont understand why. what is the motivation of lowering rangers damage output so much? perhaps its possible different extra classes have different elemental %'s?

Itsuki

Nov 30, 2006, 01:09 AM

Different classes don't have different elemental percents. And its not just rangers whos damage was nerfed when going from offline to online. What about things like RA techs going from 450% offline to 150% online. Overall, everybody deals less online and everything moves slower online. (and by everything I mean, like exp and money)

As for why were we talking about big monsters? I was referring to big and small monsters really. I was only trying to illustrate places where DoTs shine on monsters that are not weak vs that element. Only trying to bring across a couple polints:
1) You can level every element for every weapon unless you play like 10 hours a day and have no life. And even then, you probably don't have enough PA slots.
2) Because of 1, you can substitute fire in most situations and deal roughly the same amount of damage, in some cases (big monsters) even more damage.

First off, most tengohgs you'll fight are light elemental, so you'll probably be using a DoT on them anyways. And I never said that you would be doing nothing. You'd still be killing, infact, you can use two weapons if you want. This is especially true if you use dark, you can inflict the status effect at the beginning of the fight, then switch to a max damage weapon.

The fact of the matter is, no matter what class you are, you won't be able to own stuff up like you do offline. And when soloing, no matter what class you are, you're going to have to either solo at lower ranks, take forever to do a mission, or party up.

Alisha

Nov 30, 2006, 01:33 AM

i dont need to be able to own things like offline. i just want self sufficiency. it's a character flaw in my own personality but i hate having to depend on others for anything. and thanks for pointing the thing out about tengoghs being light. i played 3 jobs in ffxi to lvl 75 so im quite familliar with the concept of suckass soloing XD i'm doubtful it ever gets as bad in psu as it was in ffxi.

Itsuki

Dec 1, 2006, 06:08 AM

information from the PSU Bible:

Bonuses to stats (for all stats). Copy pasted from the PSU-wiki. And keep in mind lower case f is for forte:

Race Hu Ra Fo FG GT WT fF fG fT PT
Human +2% +2% +2% +3% +3% +3% × × × +3%
Cast × +3% × × × × × +3% × ×
Beast +3% × × × × × +3% × × ×
Newman × × +3% +3% +3% +3% × × +3% ×

Rizen

Dec 1, 2006, 11:50 AM

I wish I could get a hold of the PSU bible...I have been itching to look at some of the information inside of it...

Alisha

Dec 1, 2006, 03:08 PM

isnt that info kinda useless without numbers to apply the %'s too?
anyways... what guns would you recommend a figunner to use? and in what situations?
these are the guns they can use:
http://www.apocalypse-tribe.com/ac9breaker/figunner.jpg i'm actually really suprised they can use crossbows. also is it known what traps Figunner can use?

dotdotdotdot

Dec 1, 2006, 05:37 PM

On 2006-12-01 03:08, Itsuki-chan wrote:
information from the PSU Bible:

i can understand humans getting a bonus for figunner, because they seem to specialize in the hybrid classes. but newmans? thats abit...odd? not disputing, i just don't understand really.

Itsuki

Dec 1, 2006, 10:49 PM

Currently, if my knowledge suits me correctly, Fighgunngers and Guntechers can use the same amount as rangers maybe slightly more. Fortegunners and Protransers use the same right now. (all available right now).

Fighgunners are largely hunter based. They have rather low ATA, and shine with double sabers, twin dagger, and twin sabers. I'd probably play like a hunter for the most part, using twin handguns as backup. I might actually even suggest Mechguns over crossbow for your offhand. Their high atp would make mechguns shine (highest atp of any class that can use mechguns). Now, as I said, the thing that really holds them back is ATA.

Cast males for examples for ATP / ATA:
FG -> 658 / 326
GT -> 533 / 435
fG -> 631 / 560

Sgt_Shligger

Dec 2, 2006, 05:13 AM

Oh my God, I had the worst experience tonight. Three people, me (29 ranger), 34 force, and 38 hunter decided to try out Seabed rank B.

Well, we hit block three and took out the first wave of armed guards leaving all of us without any amo to speak of. I ran out of mates a while ago and was getting slapped around. . . My bullets wouldn't freeze shit. We all recharged and had to fight not one but two fucking waves of those damned bees. The only hits I could score were to the "back" of those things. . . Hard to distinguish >_>;;

My bullets simply didn't work on hardly anything. Armed guards, and hte robos. I could actually burn the bees if I got behind them. My point would be does Ranger get better later on? This was brutal. . . I died the most, not having any mates ;(

I'll describe my weapons and could I get some feedback on what to do?

Brahoh +4 (3* yohmei rifle) ice/13, burn/7
Brahoh +2 ice/13, burn/7
Arb Roga (4* dual tenora pistols) burn/6
Arb Roga burn/6
Stinger Dark // tenora 2* mechgun Earth/5
Bastara Ice (3* yohmei saber) // Ortotore (3* yohmei pistol) ice/8

What went wrong >_>

Should I switch my bullets around? What would be recommended bullets to purchase for what weapons? That Seabed run made me question Ranger http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

Itsuki

Dec 2, 2006, 05:30 AM

bugs are what went wrong. Sadly, theres not much any class other than forces can do to them. Hunters at the very least can get behind them. Your best bet is to go melee and strafe behind them. They're just an annoying monster really.

But to answer your question, yes, they do get better. With level 21+ bullets on rifles you can put status effects on damn near everything that you can't now (outside of bosses). And they also see a pretty big damage increase with 21+ bullets if you keep them leveled.

Sgt_Shligger

Dec 2, 2006, 05:34 AM

OK well, should I switch bullets around, buy new bullets? I'm going guntecher >_>;

Itsuki

Dec 2, 2006, 05:49 AM

Well, as a guntecher, you can just digga the damn bugs. but until then, you just gotta deal with them XD

Rizen

Dec 2, 2006, 08:09 AM

Agreed...magic attacks a Guntecher will be godsent when fighting those damn bugs...no more saber swinging for me!
I still need to get Foie...

etlitch

Dec 2, 2006, 08:21 AM

Just about to hit my first lv20 bullet for twin handguns. LOL @ 5% bullet exp / 1500+++ PP during lv19.

Cross

Dec 2, 2006, 08:41 AM

You can hit the bugs reliably if you just unequip your Bullet Arts. Remember you take a hit to your accuracy with them on. It kind of fucks over your damage per shot, but considering you'll be hitting 2-3x as often, it's not so bad.

As Guntecher, you'll have Techs, and if you're Cast and those don't work, you might end up having better luck with Cards/Longbows, if you plan to use those, since they have massively higher ATA than other ranged weapons. Zodial/Zodeal will eventually help out a lot too. It shouldn't be too hard to take them out on A-Rank, anyway - I don't know about S.

fireant

Dec 2, 2006, 09:27 AM

On 2006-11-27 06:10, Itsuki-chan wrote:
Well, to tell you the truth, I'm sadly almost always leveling SOME bullet. Right now its rifles, only reason why I had 4 on me.

But I can atleast say the card is one weapon that gets emptied almost consistantly, even when not leveling any other PA. Its a good all around weapon. The delay on it can make you waste PP on it though. Right now though, I'm keeping it opposite my debuffing wand. So it gets used a lot at the beginning of fights.

EDIT: To put it simply, if I really could, I would use almost all single handed weapons. But you just can't replace a rifle with anything, and dualies are just all around effective in most situations.

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-11-27 06:11 ]

Good deal, I was thinking about a crossbow or card to use when we get debuffs. If you have all those weapons and the card is always empty it must be good.

Sgt_Shligger

Dec 2, 2006, 03:55 PM

Hmm, I've been thinking about my weapon set as newman guntecher and here it is. . . Feel free to make suggestions on what to take out/add in ;D

Rifle: Ice-Fire (can't decide on primary element)
Dual Pistols: Dark-Fire
Laser: Light
Crea Saber // Pistol: Ice
Wand: Resta-Diga // Crossbow: Ice
Wand: Shifta-Deband // Crossbow: Ice

Now I was thinking about switching Diga with Dimufoie or Dimubarta. . . Are those going to be released with the update? Any other suggestions appreciated ;D

Itsuki

Dec 2, 2006, 06:30 PM

its my personal preference to go agtal (shifta) + zodial. I don't know if that will become a trend, but really, I'd say zodial helps you more.

Depending on the area, you might want a debuff wand.

Ice and fire is a good choice for rifle actually. Very good.

2 dots on dualies seems excessive. Unless you are using these for damage. It might be more useful to go dark + some other element. Plasma and Light would be my choices.

Sgt_Shligger

Dec 2, 2006, 07:17 PM

Well, I want to do damage with dualies. I don
t know hte point of getting MORE weapons to disable enemies. Two Crossbows, pistol, and a rifle should be enough >_>

The Light Cannon is there for some heavy damage. . . Or heavy damage over a group at least. The fire bullet will be collectigng dust once I get dark bullets. That way, I have infect most enemies and burn the ones the are dark/huge.

Any flaws in my plans?

*EDIT*

Could someone clarify what all the new buffs are and what they do?

[ This Message was edited by: Sgt_Shligger on 2006-12-02 16:22 ]

Zerrius

Dec 2, 2006, 09:00 PM

Question: When expert classes come out and I switch to Fortegunner, will my lvl 50/lvl 1 fG be statistically weaker or stronger than my current lvl 50/lvl 10 Ranger?

Dymalos

Dec 3, 2006, 12:19 AM

Only your ATA, EVP, and STA will be better. Every other stat will take a hit.

Alisha

Dec 3, 2006, 04:43 AM

On 2006-12-02 05:41, Cross wrote:
You can hit the bugs reliably if you just unequip your Bullet Arts. Remember you take a hit to your accuracy with them on. It kind of fucks over your damage per shot, but considering you'll be hitting 2-3x as often, it's not so bad.

As Guntecher, you'll have Techs, and if you're Cast and those don't work, you might end up having better luck with Cards/Longbows, if you plan to use those, since they have massively higher ATA than other ranged weapons. Zodial/Zodeal will eventually help out a lot too. It shouldn't be too hard to take them out on A-Rank, anyway - I don't know about S.

i cant speak for online but offline no gun has more ata with no bullets equiped. i'm pretty sure handguns have 50% accuracy with no bullets equiped. you can check if you highlight the weapon in your inventory and press R or whatever it is you press on the pc version.

Ether

Dec 3, 2006, 04:51 AM

Another one of those crazy online/offline differences. Every gun online has 100% accuracy with no bullet

SailorDaravon

Dec 3, 2006, 10:06 AM

Any reccomendations on what bullets to go with for Crossbows, Laser Cannons, and Grenade Launchers? I'm thinking probably 2 for Crossbow, and 1 each for the other two. My current setup/plan, * means I already have it:

1-7)Hunter PAs*
8-13)Future Dagger/Spear/Saber PAs
14-17)Rifle Ice*/Shock*/Fire/either light or dark
18-20)Shotgun Shock*/Fire/either light or dark
21)Mechgun Earth*
22)Handgun Shock*
23-27)Twin Handguns Fire*/Ice*/Shock*/Earth/either light or dark, opposite of what I put on the rifle
28-29)Crossbow Earth/??? (Fire?)
30)Laser Cannon Light
31)Grenade Launcher Fire or dark

I don't really plan on using mechguns or handguns again really. I'll go opposite element dark/light on the twin guns and rifle, and I'm thinking maybe I should actually go light AND dark on shotgun. The future Hunter PAs are kinda whatever, I can overwrite those easily if I ever actually got to that point.

[ This Message was edited by: SailorDaravon on 2006-12-03 07:09 ]

etlitch

Dec 3, 2006, 10:16 AM

Haha, really - I don't see any reason to lvl any of the bullet PAs past lv21 after the update. That's where the bonus breakpoint goes.

Current PAs is

20 saber
20 twin saber
20 dagger
20 twin dagger
20 spear

11 on all handgun PA (Last Figunner dmg breakpoint)

20 twin grav
20 twin plasma

Trying to grind all twin handgun and rifle bullets to lv 20, 21 after the update. Then I'l probaly get full PA set for another ranger weapon. My char can then freely change between fG fF and FG.

Does'nt really like the laser, grenade or shot bullet. Will probaly be getting full machinegun on last PA slots.

[ This Message was edited by: etlitch on 2006-12-03 07:35 ]

dotdotdotdot

Dec 3, 2006, 03:21 PM

i am thinking of doing the same thing basically; i am having a hard time deciding between fF, fG, and FG. i am currently leveling up hunter PAs in anticipation for the update.

however, you mention a damage breaking point, and i don't really understand what you mean there. in terms of SE level and % of elemental damage, it's true that it only changes at 11+ and 21+, but from 11 to 20 you are looking at about 9% gain in both atp and ata gained from using the BA.

i totally understand not wanting to level stuff like rifle because it is a total pain. such a different experience working freeze shot up to 20, then switching to hunter. friday night i bought a hunter PA, and even though i've been abit busy this weekend, it's already level 16 o.O amazing the difference in time it takes to level them.

etlitch

Dec 3, 2006, 03:47 PM

I simply meant the increase of element/projectiles/status effec lvl during 21 and 11. The only difference for most ranged PAs between lv21 and 30 is about 17% basic atp increase, it adds on to the % of damage increase your PA already provides you, so the difference should'nt be that much.

fireant

Dec 5, 2006, 07:46 AM

Can anyone give me any suggestions about units for a guntecker? She is a female newman that will use mostly twin handguns cards and crossbows. Rifles for bosses and very big monster but I mostly like to move around.

B rank Armor: Agena-Senga

Units
Head: C rank Hel/Mind
I assumed being a ranger I would be more likely to be hit be ranged magic attacks. I think the next armor I will avoid a mind slot so I can get something with an arm slot

Arm: My current armor does not a have an arm slot.

Body B rank mega/wall. I am using this to help my low newmen defense.

Extra: B rank mega/stamina. This helps my photon regain but I don’t now by how much.
I skipped the hp restoring unit. As a guntecker I can use reseta, I also already have it at level 10 and I am a newman so I figured I could heal my self even with my low TP.

[ This Message was edited by: fireant on 2006-12-05 04:48 ]

Itsuki

Dec 5, 2006, 08:44 AM

I actually support head units. I mean, I think you should really emphasize your strengths if you can.

I'm probably switching armor soon, because I want to use either a Stel/Mind (+30 MST) or a Mei/Magic (+40 TP, +20 MST).

Theres a lot of options for arm units. If you're newman, and use handguns, cards, and crossbows, you can easily get away with a Stella/PowerS (+60 ATP, -20 ATA). Of course, some people prefer the Mega/Power over it (+50 ATP). Bullet save is probably the ideal unit (75% bullet PP usage, 150% skill pp usage). And in certain areas, it may be more advantageous to use a Mega/Hit (+25 ATP, +15 ATA). Though the difference isn't huge, so I think the Stella/PowerS works for those that can't afford Bullet Saves (like me).

Body: I actually recommend Teiro/Legs for newman. As a newman, you're an evasion beast, you should emphasize that. Atleast IMHO. Though really, it depends on the kind of armor you use aswell.

Extra doesn't really matter. But I will say that stamina doesn't effect PP at all, it effects how often you get status effects. Of course, as a guntecher you will have regen and resta, so it doesn't matter.

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-05 05:45 ]

Sitka

Dec 5, 2006, 01:02 PM

This is a question directed to Itsuki-Chan, but I'm open to suggestions from other experienced players.

I've been leveling my Female Cast, who started as a hunter (3 levels), then switched to force (3 levels) in order to try her as a Guntecher with an eye on the Twin Pistols. As I was leveling her, I fell in love with her Longbows, maxed out each and moved on to her wands which have done far better than I thought they would have.

Looking ahead, I'm getting a vision of a true Focast with the ability to us s-rank Longbows and Cards with 30 PAs and support with buffs/debuffs/heals as needed. In other words, I could see developing her into a really nice Fortetecher, but unusual in doing so with a cast. Crazy? She rips stuff up now with lvl 10 PAs on the Longbows and holds her own with lower level magic. With s-rank bows/cards and lvl 30 spells, and the ability to ignore defense of the higher def enemies, I would think she might be very effective.

We always joked on xbox about the hackers and their hacked focasts - it would be interesting to actually have one.

Anyway, thoughts are welcome on this concept.

etlitch

Dec 5, 2006, 01:25 PM

Just keep in mind that with FOcast:

1. You won't be able to deal as much damage as a FOnewm. Your character simply won't have enough ATP to do so.
2. If you'r thinking about resta, you won't be able to heal as much as a FOnewm. The spell works like a negative attack based on your TP, something cast does'nt have that much of.

Sitka

Dec 5, 2006, 01:30 PM

I know the newmans will deal much more damage with magic than a focast, but can a focast deal more damage with the bows and cards than the newmans?

As for resta, I wouldn't use this character as my primary support force - I have a newman female that I have developed for that. It's just nice to have the support techs, albeit low level, when there isn't a force in the group or when I run solo.

My idea here is really to see which character can take advantage of the s-rank bows and cards and the lvl 30 pas and whether a focast would be relatively close to say a human or a newman or perhaps better in some ways. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

panzer_unit

Dec 5, 2006, 02:37 PM

ForteTecher will make you so weak and inaccurate that there's barely any advantage to being a Cast instead of a Newman, and at the same time your Race choice will prevent you from getting any good stats through your Job.

Stick with GunTecher... they can still use bows and cards I think. The extra points you get from not having every good stat modifier from your Race or Job being paired with a gimp one on the opposite side should more than compensate for wielding lower-level weapons.

etlitch

Dec 5, 2006, 02:45 PM

Of course Casts will best newmen at bows or fans, the thing is that the fortecher class stats pulls down the stats used for fans and bows so much that it won't really be that usefull compared to those "cookie cutter" race+class choices.

Reiichi

Dec 5, 2006, 03:04 PM

So crossbows start at 1 bullet then go to 2 then 3 by lv 21+? If so then is there no real reason to use a crossbow unless your job can handle 21+ bullets? Although it has good atp and ata, with just 1 bullet it's a slow firing pistol right? You won't be doing much status spamming I assume if you can only fire off 1 or 2 bullets with sub 20 bullets.

For bugs I like to use a rifle with ice bullets. Get a freeze on, and then just wail away without having to worry about missing or them turning towards you.

panzer_unit

Dec 5, 2006, 03:12 PM

I like knocking the bugs down with a saber PA and then ripping into 'em with a grav-ammo handgun.

Sitka

Dec 5, 2006, 03:15 PM

On 2006-12-05 11:37, panzer_unit wrote:
ForteTecher will make you so weak and inaccurate that there's barely any advantage to being a Cast instead of a Newman, and at the same time your Race choice will prevent you from getting any good stats through your Job.

Stick with GunTecher... they can still use bows and cards I think. The extra points you get from not having every good stat modifier from your Race or Job being paired with a gimp one on the opposite side should more than compensate for wielding lower-level weapons.

Good advice and well taken.

Twin pistols, bows, cards, techs....how sweet it is http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

Itsuki

Dec 5, 2006, 08:37 PM

Ok, I guess I should explain my hatred for the idea of a bow FOcast. Now, at first, it truly seems like the idea could work. But, fotecher stats are just way too low. But upon further analysis, I found some problems with it. And the main problem was, a Newman Wartecher just seemed better in every way, compared to a Cast Fortecher. The only advantage the Cast Fortecher had, was S-rank bows, and level 30 bullets. But the sad thing is, even without these, the Newman Wartecher is going to be dealing more damage, have more survivability, and be better with techs.

Why? Because newman wartecher stats are just that much better. Its around 20-40% higher in ALL STATS EXCEPT FOR STA. No joke, every single stat. We're talking about 41% more HP, 38% more ATP, 28% more ATA, 32% more TP, 65% more def, 14% more EVA, 20% more MST. Serious, thats a NEWMAN WARTECHER compared to a CAST FORTECHER.

Anyways, thats my 2 cents. I think that if you truly want a bow user, you should go Guntecher. Or perhaps even go a wartecher. Because even though the newman wartecher's stats are so much higher, their ATA still blows. You're going to have the same ATA as a beast hunter (well, barely higher). Compare a Cast Guntecher to a Cast Fortecher, and you find the Guntecher has 267% ATA, and 63% more ATP. Its a big difference.

EDIT: Whoops, pressed submit instead of preview. Ok, second half of post written!

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-05 17:43 ]

Miller

Dec 6, 2006, 08:31 AM

crossbow + wand- dark -resta + reversa / S/D when they are out.
cards + wand- light - resta + reversa
bow - earth
rifle - ice
shot - inga
dualies - fire

Would that be an ok setup for a Guntecher

Sitka

Dec 6, 2006, 09:29 AM

On 2006-12-05 17:37, Itsuki-chan wrote:
Ok, I guess I should explain my hatred for the idea of a bow FOcast. Now, at first, it truly seems like the idea could work. But, fotecher stats are just way too low. But upon further analysis, I found some problems with it. And the main problem was, a Newman Wartecher just seemed better in every way, compared to a Cast Fortecher. The only advantage the Cast Fortecher had, was S-rank bows, and level 30 bullets. But the sad thing is, even without these, the Newman Wartecher is going to be dealing more damage, have more survivability, and be better with techs.

Why? Because newman wartecher stats are just that much better. Its around 20-40% higher in ALL STATS EXCEPT FOR STA. No joke, every single stat. We're talking about 41% more HP, 38% more ATP, 28% more ATA, 32% more TP, 65% more def, 14% more EVA, 20% more MST. Serious, thats a NEWMAN WARTECHER compared to a CAST FORTECHER.

Anyways, thats my 2 cents. I think that if you truly want a bow user, you should go Guntecher. Or perhaps even go a wartecher. Because even though the newman wartecher's stats are so much higher, their ATA still blows. You're going to have the same ATA as a beast hunter (well, barely higher). Compare a Cast Guntecher to a Cast Fortecher, and you find the Guntecher has 267% ATA, and 63% more ATP. Its a big difference.

EDIT: Whoops, pressed submit instead of preview. Ok, second half of post written!

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-05 17:43 ]

"hatred" http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

I appreciate the insight - I'm not quite the statsafile as I am a guts type player. I didn't really look all the way through stats wise and I clearly get your point.

The image is what got me. My cast female is named Diana is an amazon blonde type and she looks like the fabled greek goddess with a bow, techs and daggers - truly. The idea of s-rank bows and lvl 30 PAs is what was consuming me.

I'll stick with the guntecher.

I finished off her force levels and am painfully raising her ranger levels focusing on dualies, spear and daggers until I have her ready for Friday.

Thanks again for the always expertly insightful advice. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

My main (Caber, male, cast, ranger, 49/10) is still sitting in his shop selling crap and waiting for Friday to try out some new toys.

Itsuki

Dec 6, 2006, 02:33 PM

Hatred might have been a strong word. Its just if you line up the worst possible classes, sadly, a fortecher focusing on bows as any race is down there. It doesn't help that you need to be some insanely high levels just to equip the bows. I didn't even bring that point in, but looking back on it, I really should have. I mean, at level 60 class level 10, a cast fortecher just gains the last ata it needs to equip a 9 star bow (142 ata). They only gain another 12-ish when going to level 70. Which means, they probably won't be able to equip 10 star bows at level 70. Sad but true fact.

But really, I have this same feeling towards other classes aswell. Its more of a strong desire to steer people away from the idea. Mainly because people get these false hopes, that I know aren't going to work. I also try to steer people away from humans of all sorts, and beast rangers >.> The human thing is a bit of a different issue though.

AngelLight

Dec 6, 2006, 02:46 PM

Itsuki, you have to understand....in many cases, I think that a majority of these people who want to make a Pure Bow Force (by pure being, no combat arts, with some support ones figured in and bow as main source of damage) are in fact CASTs who are looking for an easy way to level what is arguably the hardest race/job combo in game. From a purely job leveling standpoint this is fine (and in light of that they are prolly not figuring in A rank or S rank bows in this fact) as a method to level a basic job type. Now obviously, there are people who are looking at this end game (as some here have posted) and IMO, these people are short changing themselves as forces when they only focus on, once again, one aspect of a multi diverse job type. In many ways, this is alot like the on-going debate between being a Healbot, being a Battle Mage, and being balanced.

It goes without saying that only focusing on one aspect of this job is not a wise idea.....just as it is when you only heal or only do combat spells. While I can understand that some people might feel disheartened to bother with a normal build up of a force while being a cast....I do honestly believe that there is a benefit to doing so and that those players who are feeling adventurous (or alot of free time on their hands) will find that going a balanced growth route will be rewarding even as a FOcast. Also, I've always said that ANY force should give a good honest look at bows as a viable way of dealing damage as there are many benefits to using one (longer range then most combat spells, defense reduction on calculating damage on hit, etc.)

Dymalos

Dec 6, 2006, 02:47 PM

I'm planning Beast Guntecher, a female at that. I understand that my ATA is going to be more or less shot but by perusing the stats, it looks like I'll be able to equip every single 9 star weapon by level 60 and 10 Guntecher. To compensate for the bad ATA I am going to be using Bows as my SE lvl 4 weapon, primarily for their high Acc. I already have an Alteric +10 it has 667 att and 268 acc, and two Alteric +6 as back ups. I think that level of Acc will compensate for my low ATA. Not to mention the ATP I have with Beast will put some decent power behind those attacks. For the other weapons I'm probably going to have to purchase the 8* versions just so I have a good chance of landing some hits. I don't really have a problem with money so I don't see that as a hinderance.

I'm not sure what level of effect Zodial will have on my accuracy but I also have that to look forward to. While on that subject do you happen to know if TP has an effect on the power of a buff?

[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2006-12-06 11:50 ]

AngelLight

Dec 6, 2006, 02:49 PM

On 2006-12-06 11:47, Dymalos wrote:
I already have an Alteric +10 it has 667 att and 268 acc, and two Alteric +6 as back ups.

O.o

That must of cost alot, or involved stupid amounts of dumb luck to get to that http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Hopefully, we're not reading bullshit of course...not saying you are, but I just hope you're not.

Dymalos

Dec 6, 2006, 02:56 PM

I'd be happy to show you. I play on Xbox 360. Those +6 Alterics came from two Hikauri patterns that my friends and I found in Grove A. My friend (whom I know in real life) went 2 for 6 on making the Alterics with his 100 Range P.M. I used 10 B + 10 Grinders to get them there. I can't take credit for the Alteric + 10, I purchased it from Cammris de Morte who put a post up on the official forum's 360 Trade Boards. I bid 420k and won, I know it is alot of money but I figured it will be the most powerful bow for at least a month (seeing as how A Grinders aren't going to be out for awhile).

panzer_unit

Dec 6, 2006, 02:56 PM

On 2006-12-06 11:46, AngelLight wrote:
Itsuki, you have to understand....in many cases, I think that a majority of these people who want to make a Pure Bow Force (by pure being, no combat arts, with some support ones figured in and bow as main source of damage) are in fact CASTs who are looking for an easy way to level what is arguably the hardest race/job combo in game.

FoCast ... BowCast (I have Resta 3 and Reverser 1) was great for me from level 20-30 while I got my ranks up to make ProTrancer requirements. It was very clear that the party was over however when I hit the cap on all my bullet arts (just as I hit rank 5 thankfully)... without skill levels going up any more, I was going to fall behind very quickly for damage growth.

Hopefully that prospect would make most people seek GunTecher or ProTrancer for their BowCasts instead of staying the course... what are they going to fill the time with? Leveling spells? lolno.

AngelLight

Dec 6, 2006, 03:05 PM

On 2006-12-06 11:56, Dymalos wrote:
I'd be happy to show you. I play on Xbox 360. Those +6 Alterics came from two Hikauri patterns that my friends and I found in Grove A. My friend (whom I know in real life) went 2 for 6 on making the Alterics with his 100 Range P.M. I used 10 B + 10 Grinders to get them there. I can't take credit for the Alteric + 10, I purchased it from Cammris de Morte who put a post up on the official forum's 360 Trade Boards. I bid 420k and won, I know it is alot of money but I figured it will be the most powerful bow for at least a month (seeing as how A Grinders aren't going to be out for awhile).

Sadly, I dont play on 360. But that's fine. it makes sense to me (since I have a +6 Alteric myself). 420k is a huge investment indeed, but a +10 Alteric is all but unheard of as far as I know so far. Still, that's correct....that +10 kubara wep should last for a very long time due to the natural tendencies of Kubara type weps vs other types and models.

Nani-chan

Dec 6, 2006, 04:29 PM

On 2006-12-06 11:33, Itsuki-chan wrote:
I also try to steer people away from humans of all sorts

That made my day http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Decided to max Fortegunner first. I really think Guntecher will shine more after the buffs/debuffs get released.

Itsuki

Dec 6, 2006, 07:21 PM

+10 kubara weapons are many times the weapon of choice. Other than alteric, as a general whole, they have less ATA. But nevermind that. But those numbers are right, and as a beast guntecher, its a good choice to use them. Cards have similar amounts of ATA. It might also be a good idea to try those. Guntecher really is the only ranger class that gets to equip the weapons that compensate for ATA. Its not a bad choice for beast at all.

8* kubara bow has 413 atp, 340 ata. They only cost about 130k or so to make, and are another viable option for Beast Guntechers on a budget. 8 star kubara card has 168 atp, 323 ata (compared to a 8 star card, which has 225 atp, 258 ata).

Guntecher does shine a whole lot more with buffs/debuffs.

Dymalos

Dec 6, 2006, 07:27 PM

Thank you very much for the advice. I'm looking cards over right now and I'm probably going to drop the mechgun in favor of them.

Do you happen to know how these buffs work mechanically? For example, would a character with 300 TP have a stronger buff than one with 200 TP? Or is it a flat rate, like say 10% extra ATP from Agtal, regardless of TP?

[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2006-12-06 16:38 ]

Nani-chan

Dec 6, 2006, 07:51 PM

http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=122368&forum=20&start=0
It seems to be 20%-25% increase. LeMan_Bayon collected some good data.
While levels have a increased duration
1-10: 2 mins, 11-20: 3 mins, 21-30: 4 mins

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/drakee.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Nani-chan on 2006-12-06 16:57 ]

Shadow_Wing

Dec 6, 2006, 08:02 PM

Alteric +10 ^_^ it's a sexy bow.

Unfortunately I blew up a lot of my friend's Alterics synths to make it lol, he's 1:11 on getting his Alteric to +10 while breaking 2 Alteric+9s along the way, we told him not to but he never listens XD.

Alisha

Dec 6, 2006, 08:49 PM

On 2006-12-06 16:21, Itsuki-chan wrote:

Guntecher does shine a whole lot more with buffs/debuffs.

your right shifta seems to have a dramatic effect on bow damage. you can easily get a 100 damage increase. same goes for any atp boosting units. im thinking of trying to use a orpa power charge offline to see what happens.(+150 atp but increases strike and bullet pp usage.)

Dymalos

Dec 6, 2006, 11:56 PM

That's interesting data regarding Agtal (Shifta?). It seems like it also takes the Att stat of the weapon you're using into account. Otherwise you'd see the same amount of bonus damage applied to every weapon regardless of its base Att. This is definitely good news for Bow users, seeing as they have the highest Att out of any of the ranged weapons.

Alisha

Dec 7, 2006, 12:29 AM

offline the s-rank bow has more attack than the svaltus sword....

Itsuki

Dec 7, 2006, 07:03 AM

offline s-rank bow is also a-rank online. But the sword equivalent has like 250 more atp.

Anyways heres the japanese information. I don't know if this was from the bible or famitsu or something, but its been there for a while:
Lv1-10 (SE Lvl 1) +10% for 2 minutes
Lv11-20 (SE Lvl 2) +15% for 3 minutes
Lv21-30 (SE Lvl 3) +20% for 4 minutes

Bonuses applied after damage is calculated (to my knowledge). And yes, the buffs and debuffs both count as status effects, so the in between levels shouldn't really matter. But the buffs don't get taken off with regen/antimate.

etlitch

Dec 7, 2006, 07:53 AM

lol +100 dmg. As is +500 ATP?

Alisha

Dec 7, 2006, 08:56 AM

im only able to get that kind of boost on bows,rifles,and high % swords(never tried with cannons).
utileri(sp?) the S-rank bow offline has like 900 atp. something im curious about though is the boost from shifta factored into the pa % or is it added afterwards like unit's are. wich actually moakes ata units hax.

Itsuki

Dec 7, 2006, 09:21 AM

online ulteri has like 550 ATP. Anyways, +20% offline is no joke, you have huge amounts of atp, huge amounts of atp from guns, bonuses from the bullet arts. Offline, it wouldn't be unheard of to have like 600atp + 900atp from the bow = 1500atp. * 1.5 for bullet art = 2250. Thats 450atp bonus right there. Almost 100 damage since bows ignore defence. And even higher after elemental is added in.

Online, we're looking at like 400atp + 500 atp from a good bow. Thats 900atp * 1.5 for bullet art = 1350. Agtal would add like 50 damage. Still respectable.

As I said though, I'm pretty sure agtal counts in after damage is calculated. So after defence is counted in, shifta kicks in. So bow would be getting a huge boost from this since it ignores defence. On average, with agtal and defdeal I see around a 40-50 damage boost per shot with my dualies.

AngelLight

Dec 7, 2006, 10:15 AM

You need to come to the dark side Itsuki and join the Stormtr....er....Force corp. You'd get to play with bows more then you do now ^_^

Heh, oh wait, you have already? good, now I dont have to lure you over with milk and cookies now http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Itsuki

Dec 7, 2006, 10:38 AM

My jp guntecher uses rifles, my us guntecher to be has been using bows.

Sitka

Dec 7, 2006, 11:55 AM

The more I read about bows, the more excited I get about them.

I am really looking forward to the ability to get my bows developed past the 10 PA cap they are currently at.

It would seem, correct me if I'm wrong, that an A-rank high quality bow fully grinded would be a better ranger weapon than an s-rank rifle. This would be used on my guntecher versus my forteranger who will be using the rifles. I'm thinking mostly about high-end s-rank runs with obscenely high defense enemies and bosses.

Is that a correct assumption?

AngelLight

Dec 7, 2006, 12:50 PM

keep in mind that the special PA bullet arts are different for rifles and bows and are currently not out yet for either JP or US. This could have a major effect on the rifle vs. bow debate in the future.

As for stat based, I think it would depend on the weapon's maufacturer and the grind levels growth of each weapon in question.

Itsuki

Dec 7, 2006, 01:04 PM

It was discussed a few pages back (well, few for me, but I display 50 per page), about rifle and bow. The basic conclusion was that in the long run, Rifles were more versatile, and better suited as a primary weapon. Bows are good, but they're some what situational.

The strange thing is, in S-rank, monsters really don't increase in def all that much. No more than from B rank to A rank (there is an increase, its just not all that much). The main difference in S-rank is what the monsters can do to you. Which can be quite scary.

AngelLight

Dec 7, 2006, 02:06 PM

here's a hint, I hope you like purple.....cause the monsters will be spitting alot of it at your party in various places. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Sitka

Dec 7, 2006, 02:54 PM

On 2006-12-07 11:06, AngelLight wrote:
here's a hint, I hope you like purple.....cause the monsters will be spitting alot of it at your party in various places. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I've already experinced the joy of getting nailed by purple spit balls in the undersea lab on Parum http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

On PSO, we could equip a dark resistance armor and dark resist units to get close to or at 100 edk and thus run pain free when hunting in certain megid-full areas.

Short of getting lucky with a synth and getting 50% dark on an armor, is there a unit to be released that can be added to a slot to fend off the purple spit beasties?

Itsuki

Dec 7, 2006, 03:05 PM

Anything that raises STA should help a little bit. (focus on the little)

But really theres only a couple maps with a lot of megid. Linear Line S and Hive S. Hive on C through A has no more than Labs does. And really, a large portion of the megid can be canceled through plasma bullets.

There is an npc buyable 6* tenora armor with like 25% dark. Most FOs use that, but I'm not sure how viable that will be for even newman guntecher. Haven't tried seeing if it offers enough MST yet.

As for cast rangers, well, you all are screwed, just play it safe.

AngelLight

Dec 7, 2006, 03:10 PM

dont you mean grav bullets? Megid is a spell effect I assume.....or are we talking about a physical attack that also has insta death side effect?

panzer_unit

Dec 7, 2006, 03:18 PM

On 2006-12-07 12:05, Itsuki-chan wrote:

As for cast rangers, well, you all are screwed, just play it safe.

ProTip: strafe the room, or do a barrel roll... maybe.

Itsuki

Dec 7, 2006, 03:46 PM

On 2006-12-07 12:10, AngelLight wrote:
dont you mean grav bullets? Megid is a spell effect I assume.....or are we talking about a physical attack that also has insta death side effect?

Nope, plasma. Deljaban's megid is an effect of its melee attack. Think of it as a skill / photon art. But, even though its part of the melee attack, its still the same megid that Jyabas cast. The little purple ball that flies at you.

Nani-chan

Dec 7, 2006, 03:47 PM

On 2006-12-07 12:10, AngelLight wrote:
dont you mean grav bullets? Megid is a spell effect I assume.....or are we talking about a physical attack that also has insta death side effect?

Yes Physical PA that has + megid, we talked about this on page 13-14, so no reason to repeat it.

Screwed casts? Hmm better wear some protection then http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/drakee.gif

AngelLight

Dec 7, 2006, 03:54 PM

Oh well page 13 silly me how I missed that LOL. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Honestly, between the 3 main basic job threads, we should be writing our own Strat Guide and publishing it. We'd put Brady Games out of business http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

roygbiv

Dec 7, 2006, 05:32 PM

Blah... this thread needs a table of contents...

Any hint on if the different races for Guntecher had been discussed? I.e. I am thinking of making a Newman Guntecher so that my resta doesn't suck... any advice? (How do they compare vs. Human/ Cast?

Nani-chan

Dec 7, 2006, 06:02 PM

Page 27 should help.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_sheep.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Nani-chan on 2006-12-07 15:11 ]

Rizen

Dec 7, 2006, 06:22 PM

On 2006-12-07 14:32, roygbiv wrote:
Blah... this thread needs a table of contents...

If someone is willing to make one I will be glad to paste in on the first post.

Nani-chan

Dec 7, 2006, 07:08 PM

Well here is my completely biased towards my love for Itsuki table of contents.

Page 2 Ether posts a laser movie
Page 4 Itsuki’s advice on certain weapons
Page 5 First posts on Longbow/Confuse and Rizen posts grenade movies
Page 6 Crossbow vs Shotgun
Page 7 Possibly why freeze is bad on shotgun/crossbow
Page 8 Pas for crossbow/shotgun
Page 9 Considering Guntecher techs
Page 10 Gun SE levels <3
Page 13-14 A special type of Megid being canceled by plasma
Page 17 Opinions, but I get my SE4 theory confirmed.
Page 18 is reconfirming page 10
Page 19 <3 Itsuki
Page 20 Dusk talks about shotguns http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif
Page 22 Dotdotdot’s pictures of shotgun piercing
Page 23 chatting about virus (dark bullets)
Page 24 Fire/Dark/Ice don’t stack http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif
Page 26 B and A rank guns (mostly cost to refill concerns)
Page 27 Guntecher advice
Page 28 and 30 Longbows ignore Def
Pade 31 Confuse bullets
Page 32 Lastat talks about shotguns
Page 33 Race stat bonuses
Page 34 Comparing Weapon DPS
Page 36 Diga bugs, shifta + zodial for guntecher
Page 37 Itsuki dislikes Focasts
Page 38 Kubara is awesome when heavily grinded
Page 39 shifta and bow reconfirmation
Page 40 Physical megid reconfirmation, Guntecher advice confirmation, table of contents.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/drakee.gif

It's biased since I treat allot of Itsuki's opinions/comments similiar to facts. I also ignored the mechgun posts, since I don't like mechguns. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Nani-chan on 2006-12-07 16:58 ]

dotdotdotdot

Dec 7, 2006, 07:45 PM

so, here is basically what my research turned up when i was thinking about making lots of 6* kubara and grinding them. the models i chose based mostly on looks http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif these may not apply in situations where people would choose to use other models than the ones i chose, but in my case i decided that going kubara would not be worth it for any gun, except perhaps if i could get a +10 kubara rifle. the loss of ata was i feel signifigant, and the atp gain (if any) is not worthed the effort in my opinion. in fact, i think all of them need to be +10 to have an edge in atp over the normal 8* version. in addition, investing in A rank stuff now means i'll have them whenever we happen to get A grinder boards.

8* pp atp ata
rifle (GRM) 1228 500 170
shotgun (tenora) 1134 100 122
twins (GRM) 1015 200 132
machinegun(GRM) 803 60 75

kubara
rifle(GRM) 870 341 107
shotgun(temora) 1155 26 82
twins(tenora) 827 133 87
machinegun(tenora) 875 39 49

how the kubara grinds:
rifle ATA 107
+6 1272 478
+7 1306 499
+8 1340 520
+9 1374 556
+10 1408 602

shotgun ATA 82
+6 1309 61
+7 1322 68
+8 1335 76
+9 1348 86
+10 1361 111

twin handgun ATA 87
+6 851 180
+7 855 187
+8 859 194
+9 863 206
+10 867 221

machinegun ATA 49
+6 909 52
+7 915 55
+8 921 58
+9 927 62
+10 933 71

regen: other: kubara
rifle 12 ?
shotgun 12 14
twins 12 11
machinegun 15 ?(18?)

i apologize for the messy post, i'm not really sure how to make it cleaner. it looks alot better in the notepad that i made it in http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

CyarVictor

Dec 7, 2006, 07:45 PM

Wow. A great thread for rangers. Being a cast ranger, this really helps me out. I'm liking this and the biased Itsuki table of contents, lol. I have one question. I don't know if it was answered. Does anyone know the costs of the lasercannon/grenade launchers? And yes, barrel rolls will protect any casts from harm as long as they shut off their inkjet printers.

dotdotdotdot

Dec 7, 2006, 07:52 PM

i believe in the update (please correct me if i am wrong,) we will be getting 7* weapons from NPCs, and the 8* boards? so 90k for the npc version, 110k for the 8* board to make the 8* version.

Sgt_Shligger

Dec 7, 2006, 08:59 PM

Well, online can crossbows point blank? Like, can I hit the same enemy three times?

Itsuki

Dec 7, 2006, 10:30 PM

yes. You can point blank with crossbows.

Gernades and Lasers cost 90k if you mean npc cost. If you use the board, you can probably churn them out for an average of 70k, give or take. You can probably make 8 stars for about 140k. Keep in mind that boards have 3 uses. So this is assume you do many boards and all 3 uses on each board.

If you mean PP cost, they both use stupid amounts of PP. I think 50 per shot for Gernades (40 after Fortegunner buffs) and 40 per shot for Lasers (32 after Fortegunner buffs).

As for the grinding stuff, its only my personal opinion. But I think grinded youmei and grinded kubara kill A-rank Rifles. But for all other weapons, I'd recommend just going with the A-rank. Why? The ATA bonus beats out the bonus to ATP/PP. For nearly all of them. I actually use 2 grinded GRM Kubara and 2 grinded Youmei (the youmei kubara blows).

So lets add the information for youmei:
+6 1546 452
+7 1564 475
+8 1582 498
+9 1628 521
+10 1698 544

SailorDaravon

Dec 7, 2006, 11:16 PM

Related to the megid thing: is it true that you have to have an armor with 50% dark to completely nullify megid?

Sgt_Shligger

Dec 7, 2006, 11:19 PM

I'll take my newman

M

S

T

Doesn't that effect megid effect?

SailorDaravon

Dec 7, 2006, 11:54 PM

Yes. But from what I've read, Megid has to completely miss you. If you "block" it, it can still insta-kill you. I've also read that an armor with 50% dark will 100% of the time nullify megid.

I'm not 100% on either one of those things, and I hear conflicting accounts, I was hoping someone in here would know http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

fireant

Dec 8, 2006, 05:57 AM

On 2006-12-05 05:44, Itsuki-chan wrote:
I actually support head units. I mean, I think you should really emphasize your strengths if you can.

I'm probably switching armor soon, because I want to use either a Stel/Mind (+30 MST) or a Mei/Magic (+40 TP, +20 MST).

Theres a lot of options for arm units. If you're newman, and use handguns, cards, and crossbows, you can easily get away with a Stella/PowerS (+60 ATP, -20 ATA). Of course, some people prefer the Mega/Power over it (+50 ATP). Bullet save is probably the ideal unit (75% bullet PP usage, 150% skill pp usage). And in certain areas, it may be more advantageous to use a Mega/Hit (+25 ATP, +15 ATA). Though the difference isn't huge, so I think the Stella/PowerS works for those that can't afford Bullet Saves (like me).

Body: I actually recommend Teiro/Legs for newman. As a newman, you're an evasion beast, you should emphasize that. Atleast IMHO. Though really, it depends on the kind of armor you use aswell.

Extra doesn't really matter. But I will say that stamina doesn't effect PP at all, it effects how often you get status effects. Of course, as a guntecher you will have regen and resta, so it doesn't matter.

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-05 05:45 ]

Do'h I was so wrong about the PP unit, Thanks for the help

Itsuki

Dec 8, 2006, 05:57 AM

Let me clear the confusion:

You can't dodge megid.
If megid hits you, it will deal damage and have a chance to kill you.
It only has a chance to kill you if it deals damage.
The damage it deals is reduced by your elmental % and your MST.

Soooo, a fortecher can buy the 6 star armor from moatoob, which has like 25% dark, and be immune. A guntecher has to go a bit further. And pretty much any cast doesn't stand a chance.

Also, today was my first day back to PSU, yaaaayyyy. Did a Megana S run. My god, that place is craaaazzy. 1 level 80 grina beat can be deadly. 3 in a small room almost guaruntees someone is going to die. 25 level 80 grina beats over the course of 2 blocks, well thats a Megana S run for you. Needless to say... I died... like 10 times. Wouldn't have been so bad, except once we got to megana, he was dealing about 1100 and I only have 1025-ish hp (Level 60, guntecher 4). :/

Oh well, I'll see if I can pull up some full new bullets information for later. Supposedly rifle gets a kill shot (boom headshot mode), that costs 2.5x pp. That can push the rifle/bow debate in favor of the rifle if its good enough. I think it costs like 90 PA Frags though (think 90 Photon Drops).

All the new bullets cost between 60 and 90 PA Frags. If you S-rank an S-rank, you get 1 PA Frag. So you all better start saving up. I know I only have like 50, its going to be a while for me.

AngelLight

Dec 8, 2006, 08:36 AM

I believe MST only effects magical damage (in the same way DEF effects physical damage). STA, is for special effects and knockdowns and such. (STA standing for Stamina)

SailorDaravon

Dec 8, 2006, 08:55 AM

On 2006-12-08 02:57, Itsuki-chan wrote:
Oh well, I'll see if I can pull up some full new bullets information for later. Supposedly rifle gets a kill shot (boom headshot mode), that costs 2.5x pp. That can push the rifle/bow debate in favor of the rifle if its good enough. I think it costs like 90 PA Frags though (think 90 Photon Drops).

All the new bullets cost between 60 and 90 PA Frags. If you S-rank an S-rank, you get 1 PA Frag. So you all better start saving up. I know I only have like 50, its going to be a while for me.

Wait new bullets what??

AngelLight

Dec 8, 2006, 10:49 AM

http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=129268&forum=20&12

ChyronType0

Dec 8, 2006, 06:00 PM

Fellow rangers! I need some advice. Would fire be good on a grenade launcher to start out lvling? Same for Laser. I don't know what would be good for them.

SailorDaravon

Dec 8, 2006, 06:05 PM

I tossed fire on both, seems to be working out fine. I'm not really counting on much on either of those weapons for SE's though, so I figured going with a DoT would be a good idea.

ChyronType0

Dec 8, 2006, 06:18 PM

Ya, I figured rifles are for the effect. But, plasma would be good on the grenade right? A whole mob could be affected in one shot. I know Laser's SE only go up to lvl 1. What about grenade launchers? They are my current fav.

Sitka

Dec 8, 2006, 06:20 PM

I tried my first solo s-rank run on Linear Line this morning.

Damn but those little bastards are fast!

I see what you mean about the flying megid and the range on those balls is good - they were tossing it 1.5 rooms away and hitting my pm with it.

I used up all three rifles and all three dualies in the first room alone and had to run out and recharge/heal the pm every single room - slow way of making a living. Of course, I was doing it just for the shits and giggles of trying s-rank, so it was still fun.

After that, I went back to some A-rank runs and kicked butt and the red boxes were dropping all over even though it was a 0 luck day....

I also tried out the new sturmbuster (I think that's what its called) and I really like it. Good overall damage on everything and they all caught fire. I was enjoying my PM's "Die" "Suffer" and "Fire" chat signs.

The only other observation I had was just how frickin poor I am. Everything costs tons of money and I can't afford to buy anything. Maybe trying to raise four different characters simultaneously was a REALLY STUPID IDEA!

I'm looking forward to running with some of you folks this weekend (xbox 360) and getting a party together for those fun s-rank runs.

ChyronType0

Dec 8, 2006, 06:22 PM

I hear ya. Its tough now. Being poor is no fun. Like lvl 10 again.

CyarVictor

Dec 8, 2006, 07:08 PM

Hey ChyronType0, I do want a grenade launcher too. How are you liking them? Good for mob control? I was on this morning to check synthesis items I set to motion last night before class/work so i ddin't have a chance to look at everything, plus I'm two levels short of the requirements for fortegunner. Just curious so I know what to blow a major chunk of meseta on. I'm a ranger with 2 burzaihohs +5, one shigga amza +3, and one shigga bigul +2 which I'm happy with till I can find or make a 7* rifle/shottie. I just want to see others impression of the launcher series.

ChyronType0

Dec 8, 2006, 07:44 PM

I like them. I decided to use fire on the grenade launcher. Pretty good too, even at lvl 1. The GL has excellent knockback to help hunters in trouble. The only complaint is the PP drain. I played Linear Line A, and by the 3rd room it was out of PP. I would suggest practing aiming with it. It takes getting used too, but it pays if you learn to use it, just like the shottie.

Kuya

Dec 8, 2006, 09:55 PM

I have ice on the launcher since I have SE4 on my rifle anyway. If the knockback doesn't get them, there's a chance to freeze http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Realmz

Dec 9, 2006, 12:49 AM

more like if the freeze gets them, they're in mid air and then the foces and melees can lay into them for 100% hit amirite?

ashley50

Dec 9, 2006, 03:41 AM

so far i managed to get the Laser Cannon and Freeze Prizm PA. it's fun to use the laser when all enemies are lined up lol...which is kinda hard to do. and 19PP each shot, quite expensive.

Alisha

Dec 9, 2006, 04:29 AM

how do we feel about handguns? they seem to have an apply rate comparable to twin handguns but its difficult to tell because of the difference in shot volume. still i was suprized how often they take effect plus i think they regen faster than twin handguns and are more pp efficient. its fun to equip a handgun with a staff. freeze a monster then blast it with diga. at the very least they can be useful for status effects that only get duration from SE level.

Itsuki

Dec 9, 2006, 06:55 AM

Problem with handgun is its pretty much eclipsed by Crossbows and Cards once you get to an extended class. Anyways, on to the known new Bullets. If I recall correctly, there should be two for each gun. One special one, and one Mayali. Anyways, heres the list of known:

reformatted from http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=129268&forum=20&26

90 Rifle - Killer Shot - 2.5x PP cost, chance to instant kill (megid / boom headshot mode)
60 Shotgun - Barada Maga - High ATA, Lowers ATA/EVA of monsters (Zodial? not sure)
75 Bow - Chousei-sou - Higher PP cost, Higher ATP/ATA
90 Gernade - Boma Maga - Smaller AoE, higher Freeze chance (supposedly "perfect", but probably still lowered by STA)
90 Laser - Mayalee Prism - Short Range, launches monsters on hit
60 Dualies - Twin Mayali - Lower ATP, Lowers DEF of monsters (Defdeal? not sure)
60 Handgun - Mayali Hit - 1:1 Damage dealt to HP recovery (I was told 1:1, not entirely sure)
75 Crossbow - Yak Zagenga - Sacrafices HP for damage (Berserk)
60 Card - Kyumeisei-shiki - 1:1 Damage dealt to HP recovery (Again, not sure on ratio)
75 Mechgun - Mayali Fury - Lower ATA, Raises firing rate

Theres others. I know theres a meseta -> damage (charge) one, among others. Now, the cost is in PA Fragments. Your first 50-ish frags relatively easily, after that it will be a grind. You can't sell or exchange frags. Normally, you get 1 frag per S-rank of an S-rank mission (about 20-40 minutes of work). But there are certain places you can farm them. Each A-rank (level 60+) online story mode mission you get an S in gives you 10 frags for your first completion. 1 frag after that. 2-2-2 is only about 2:30 long, so its pretty farmable.

EDIT: Some elaboration on things. All of them are non-elemental (even the freeeze). The freeze is supposedly perfect, but then again, so are debuffs. But against leaders and some larger mobs, it sometimes takes as many as 3-4 casts for the debuff to stick. Also, it doesn't mention status effect level, gernades only have SE 1, this could very well be level 1 freeze, and thus unable to freeze mini-bosses and large mobs. I was told 1:1 ratios on the healing bullets by Lyrise, but even if its not 1:1, it can still make handgun a really good weapon for Fortegunners. Especially when soloing. Its unclear whether the debuffing bullets actually cast the debuff on monsters, or if they have a special effect for it. Its probably leaning towards debuffs. Making the twins bullet not so great, but the shotgun bullet really really good. Depending on effect chance, the rifle and bow debate may still be up in the air. Any percentage boost to bow's attacks can add some silly amounts of damage. But even a 5% chance to instant kill can make rifles nasty. The crossbow berserk effect sounds really good for guntechers, since it allows you to have a resta wand in the other hand. Almost seems made for guntechers. I only wonder how much the damage is improved. I forsee crossbow in offhand, resta/defdeal in other hand (jellen).

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-09 04:07 ]

Alisha

Dec 9, 2006, 08:33 AM

yeah but crossbow apply rate is about as pathetic as shotguns plus the fire rate. hows the apply rate on cards?

SailorDaravon

Dec 9, 2006, 09:42 AM

Don't Crossbows go Lv 1 ->2 ->3? 3 bullets with lvl 3 SE at 21+ sounds pretty damn sweet to me.

Kuya

Dec 9, 2006, 09:54 AM

Grenades only have SE1? I thought someone said it goes to 3 at 21+? Btw - grenades are still fun http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Zodom

Dec 9, 2006, 11:16 AM

As rangers do you think it would be at all useful for a Fortefighter to pick up a handgun bullet skill since we can only level it up to 10? I was thinking of maybe picking up fire and ice for my off-hand guns, but I don't know if it would really be worth it.

Please don't shoot me for asking a hunter question in the ranger post.

dotdotdotdot

Dec 9, 2006, 02:26 PM

please tell me we could bind those new BAs to triangle instead of having to take over element... that would be so awesome

both crossbow and grenade should go up to 3 at 21+.

zodom - use or not it's really up to you. if you don't like running around in circles when flying enemies are in the air, then you could get it... you could just keep in your inv. and only put on palette when they are around?

grenade/laser - wow they are PP gobblers, but so much fun
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/fuzakenna/launcher.jpg
pew pew!

[ This Message was edited by: dotdotdotdot on 2006-12-09 11:27 ]

Itsuki

Dec 9, 2006, 04:49 PM

Oh sorry, it does go to 3. Either way though, that won't freeze mini-bosses or big monsters.

As for Zodom - Depends on the area. You should always have a handgun yes, but your ATA is such that it may not be very advantageous to use a bullet on it. If you can hit with the bullet on, then you should use it.

And as far as I know, you can't press the PA button for these specials. But oh can we hope.

fireant

Dec 11, 2006, 04:44 PM

So now that we can class change any words about Bows vs Rifles? I like the power of the bows but they are just to slow. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

roygbiv

Dec 11, 2006, 05:16 PM

Oh man... tempted to make a Cast Guntecher for new bow-card bullets... ;o;

Sitka

Dec 12, 2006, 01:40 PM

On 2006-12-09 03:55, Itsuki-chan wrote:
Problem with handgun is its pretty much eclipsed by Crossbows and Cards once you get to an extended class. Anyways, on to the known new Bullets. If I recall correctly, there should be two for each gun. One special one, and one Mayali. Anyways, heres the list of known:

reformatted from http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=129268&forum=20&26

90 Rifle - Killer Shot - 2.5x PP cost, chance to instant kill (megid / boom headshot mode)
60 Shotgun - Barada Maga - High ATA, Lowers ATA/EVA of monsters (Zodial? not sure)
75 Bow - Chousei-sou - Higher PP cost, Higher ATP/ATA
90 Gernade - Boma Maga - Smaller AoE, higher Freeze chance (supposedly "perfect", but probably still lowered by STA)
90 Laser - Mayalee Prism - Short Range, launches monsters on hit
60 Dualies - Twin Mayali - Lower ATP, Lowers DEF of monsters (Defdeal? not sure)
60 Handgun - Mayali Hit - 1:1 Damage dealt to HP recovery (I was told 1:1, not entirely sure)
75 Crossbow - Yak Zagenga - Sacrafices HP for damage (Berserk)
60 Card - Kyumeisei-shiki - 1:1 Damage dealt to HP recovery (Again, not sure on ratio)
75 Mechgun - Mayali Fury - Lower ATA, Raises firing rate

Theres others. I know theres a meseta -> damage (charge) one, among others. Now, the cost is in PA Fragments. Your first 50-ish frags relatively easily, after that it will be a grind. You can't sell or exchange frags. Normally, you get 1 frag per S-rank of an S-rank mission (about 20-40 minutes of work). But there are certain places you can farm them. Each A-rank (level 60+) online story mode mission you get an S in gives you 10 frags for your first completion. 1 frag after that. 2-2-2 is only about 2:30 long, so its pretty farmable.

EDIT: Some elaboration on things. All of them are non-elemental (even the freeeze). The freeze is supposedly perfect, but then again, so are debuffs. But against leaders and some larger mobs, it sometimes takes as many as 3-4 casts for the debuff to stick. Also, it doesn't mention status effect level, gernades only have SE 1, this could very well be level 1 freeze, and thus unable to freeze mini-bosses and large mobs. I was told 1:1 ratios on the healing bullets by Lyrise, but even if its not 1:1, it can still make handgun a really good weapon for Fortegunners. Especially when soloing. Its unclear whether the debuffing bullets actually cast the debuff on monsters, or if they have a special effect for it. Its probably leaning towards debuffs. Making the twins bullet not so great, but the shotgun bullet really really good. Depending on effect chance, the rifle and bow debate may still be up in the air. Any percentage boost to bow's attacks can add some silly amounts of damage. But even a 5% chance to instant kill can make rifles nasty. The crossbow berserk effect sounds really good for guntechers, since it allows you to have a resta wand in the other hand. Almost seems made for guntechers. I only wonder how much the damage is improved. I forsee crossbow in offhand, resta/defdeal in other hand (jellen).

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-09 04:07 ]

This is very interesting. Now, the 90 in front of the Killer Shot - is that how many fragments it costs? If so, holy sh.it!

Has anyone seen this one in action? If it works pretty decent, that would be so much fun to mess with. Take out the megid poppers with their own medicine.

Itsuki

Dec 12, 2006, 02:23 PM

Yes, the 90 is the number of PA Frags it costs. And we won't see it in action till the update. If you followed the link, you'll notice its being added on 12/14. Its likely one of the first I'm getting, so I'll give you info. I think I'll try to get 3 of them by friday. And then relay the information here.

I can't say 90 frags isn't a ton, because it is. But, a level 60 can relatively easily pull 15 PA frags an hour. I did 35 runs in 2.5 hours last time I soloed. And theres also no guaruntee this will work on "large" monsters. Those big guys generally only take level 4 status effects, the megid effect is considered a status effect, so I'm guessing at 21+ it would be able to, but theres no guaruntee.

EDIT: I'd like to point out that the 35 in 2.5 hours involved a total of 3 failures, and it was done as a level 3 force. Not even a fortecher, I switched from guntecher to force. Needless to say, I'll be fortecher by the end of it though, because of the class exp I'm getting from this. (750meseta, 7 class exp per run, and usually you get atleast 100 meseta in drops and don't use more than 100 meseta in PP)

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-12 11:31 ]

Sgt_Shligger

Dec 12, 2006, 06:24 PM

What's a PA frag?

Itsuki

Dec 12, 2006, 11:00 PM

The full name of the item is "PA Fragment" Or "PAfuragomento" on the jp servers. Normally speaking, you get a single PA Fragment each time you S-rank and S difficulty mission. If you haven't done S yet, then you wouldn't have seen them. You cannot sell them, you cannot trade them, you can only put them in both your PM and your shared storage. I think you can transfer them to other of your characters since you can put them in shared storage. Which is good to know, since they stack to 99.

If you've played PSO, then a good way to think of PA Fragments is to think of them as Photon Drops that you can't sell. So anyways... the new skills are basically shops where you buy them using PA Fragments as your money.

Now, there is a 2nd way to get PA Fragments. And that is from online story mode. Storymode is split up into difficulties, you just can't see them. Its instead based on what level you are, and when you reach certain levels, the difficulty increases like this:
Lvl 1+ C-rank
Lvl 35+ B-rank
Lvl 60+ A-rank

Now, some people consider A-rank as S-rank. Because when you get an S-rank in them, you get a PA Fragment. If this is your first time S-ranking in Level 60+ story mode, then you get 10 PA Fragments. But this is quite a feat to do for many of the missions. There are a few exceptions to this rule. For example, 2-1-2 doesn't require you to kill any enemies at all if I recall, and S-rank is in 2:50. If you can run it in that time, you can get the PA-frag over and over. I actually consider 2-2-2 shorter and easier, but it requires you to kill exactly 10 enemies, 4 of which are explody physical resistant mechs (that also happen to be really weak to digga). 2-2-2 is a 2:45 time limit, but I've done it as fast as 1:55. And thats at ONLY level 60. I barely meet the requirement.

Reiichi

Dec 13, 2006, 02:16 PM

I ran Fight for Food S last night 5 times for the first time. All ranks received an S.

The first round I joined a party of 5 before they started. We did not get a PA fragment.
After which I believe someone went to their room to grab something, came back, and we started up a second run. Leader was exchanged prior to starting the run. We did not get a PA fragment.

The three subsequent runs were done back to back and we got a PA fragment from each.

Any word on reforming parties or anything that would disrupt getting a PA fragment? Keep in mind that all runs were S for all members as noone joined or left mid run.

Itsuki

Dec 13, 2006, 02:45 PM

Posted in wrong topic originally, so might as well make this post useful...

When Plant Recapture / Fight for Food / LL 2 S (whatever you watn to call it) was implemented on the JP servers, it was bugged I think. You'd occasionally get the PA fragment, occasionally not. It was really random. It wasn't effected by the party at all, just random. I believe it was fixed, but I'm not entirely sure... because nobody ever played that area. I mean, if people are soloing, they solo Unsafe Passage / LL 1 S. I don't think I've even touched LL 2 S since the day it was implemented on the JP servers. Seriously. We've done our share of LL, but its always LL 1.

Anyways, thats the only area where we've had the problem with getting an S and not get a frag. So I really don't know what the deal is with that area.

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-13 11:54 ]

Itsuki

Dec 14, 2006, 07:19 PM

In the japanese version, atleast it appears right now that you no longer get PA Frags from story mode missions. Which means, I only have 78 PA Frags. I'll see how well I accumulate frags today, and then go about deciding what new PAs I want. I actually really want to try the crossbow one. But I also really want the rifle one. Perhaps I'll wait to see what the japanese have to say about them.

The information on the rifle one says it has level 2 death, increasing to 3, then 4. But doesn't give any sort of rate, so I'd have to see it myself. But that means it might work on big things. Its also 10% weaker than normal rifle bullets (addative, not multiplicative). At a cost of 32pp -> 40pp -> 48pp.

Long bow appears to be 10% stronger (atleat at early levels), and has huge amounts of ATA. We're talking about an 80% ATA mod at Level 10. That is sick. And would make protransers happy. At 24pp (probably increasing to 30pp, 36pp. It appears to be 3x pp cost, while rifle was 4x pp cost).

Dualies appears to actually have higher ATP and inflicts defdeal (Zalure).

Card and Handgun's initial status effect is "HP Steal level 1" which early reports state are 1/15th the damage you deal (you deal 450, you heal 30). I think it would be safe to assume at level 21+ its 1/5th the damage you deal. Which isn't horrible, but isn't great either. I'll re-update the list later.

SolomonGrundy

Dec 14, 2006, 07:28 PM

Card and Handgun's initial status effect is "HP Steal level 1" which early reports state are 1/15th the damage you deal (you deal 450, you heal 30). I think it would be safe to assume at level 21+ its 1/5th the damage you deal. Which isn't horrible, but isn't great either. I'll re-update the list later.

This would be VERY powerful if the HP steal functions the way it did in PSO (you did damage and you stole HP - but the HP steal also counted as additional damage)

example: Rifle special "gush" might doo 200 damage, and 120 HP steal on ultimate. total damage dealt to monster: 320 This was especailly powerful for low ATP classes (RAcaseal I'm looking at you here), as the 120 did not vary.

when these are released, someone should check if the HP drain does additional damage, and whether these have max HP drain caps as well

Dusk21

Dec 14, 2006, 10:37 PM

What I really want to know (and what I'm prayin for) is can the advanced PAs be equipped in tandem with the regular bullets, and be used with triangle like melee PAs. I really want the berserk xbow but I'm seriously questioning how safe that'll be if you can ONLY zerk with it, even with heal.

Itsuki

Dec 15, 2006, 08:51 AM

Well, I partied with a ranger friend yesterday, and got to see some of these in action. He had the Rifle, Gernade, and Laser PAs. And man, those gernade and laser PAs are AMAZING. I don't know how much PP they use, but its probably worth it.

The gernade one freezes EVERYTHING on hit. i think leaders and minibosses would resist sometimes (hard to tell), but generally even they got frozen. He didn't have it leveled, so it was only level 1 freeze, but damn, just damn, that was beautiful.

The laser PA, while I don't think it was quite as good as the gernade PA was still quite nice. It didn't launch monsters, but it knocked them all over. Also with a 100% rate, and anything that couldn't be launched was stagged and pushed away quite a bit. The main problem with it was the fact that it spread everything out. You can't shoot two shots in a row and expect to hit the same monsters. You shoot once, then you kind of have to readjust.

SolomonGrundy

Dec 15, 2006, 09:54 PM

quick, possibly dumb question...where are all the new weapons for sale? I can't seem to find them in the shops

(is it a level thing? I'm only 15th... Or does one have to be in an expert class before they go on sale?)

Itsuki

Dec 16, 2006, 02:35 AM

They should be in sale everywhere. Everywhere thats not colony atleast. But they're only one manufacturer for each type of weapon. For example, Crossbows are only on Moatoob.

SolomonGrundy

Dec 16, 2006, 03:50 AM

On 2006-12-15 23:35, Itsuki-chan wrote:
They should be in sale everywhere. Everywhere thats not colony atleast. But they're only one manufacturer for each type of weapon. For example, Crossbows are only on Moatoob.

Aha! I figured since everyting else seemed for sale in the colony...

Domo Arigato Gozaimashita

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Sgt_Shligger

Dec 17, 2006, 02:32 AM

Out of curiosity, what color were the ultimate gun bullets? Green?

Itsuki

Dec 17, 2006, 09:24 AM

They're all green. Supposedly the bullets on the S-rank weapons have locked colors though (colors don't change with PAs). Lyrise was telling me that the crossbow bullet isn't berserk, but it deals damage the higher your HP is.

I got killer shot. Man, it sucks PP. I was emptying 12 rifles a run in Linear Line A. You don't see the effects too often, but sometimes you get those random good shots in. It also appears to be effected by STA, so areas with lower STA die better. This means it probably rocks explody robots pretty hard (Hakura). But if you're in like mizuraki, you're better off with something else. And if you let it, you can empty 4 rifles in a block.

Solo_Wing

Dec 17, 2006, 10:19 AM

Thanks for keeping us updated Itsuki-chan, your answering alot of questions. but the 1 big Q i havnt seen an answer to is do advanced bullets replace the basic bullets, or can u have an elemental bullet and an advanced equiped on the same wepon.

Itsuki

Dec 17, 2006, 10:48 AM

They function the same as normal bullets. You equip them, and they replace the normal shot. You can't have both bullets equipped, just one at a time.

dotdotdotdot

Dec 17, 2006, 11:18 AM

Sitka

Dec 18, 2006, 04:24 PM

Question I have:

I can Freeze Svaltus now with level 29 ice bullets, but I can't freeze go vahras with shields or s-rank vandas with shields.

Do they ever freeze and why can I freeze a boss and not a leader?

Also, luck appears to be playing a role in my synthing....one way or another. On my level 2 luck day I successfully synthed 2 x Burst Rifles on 54% chance of success. On a no luck day yesterday, I failed 10 (yes 10 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif) armour synths in a row and failed my first of three attempts at the Gur Napam grenade launcher (54% chance).

I'm trying to get more materials/meseta to make another attempt at the Gun Napam, but I'm wondering if I should stockpile mats/money for a day when my star is shining.

Thank goodness I made a pure ranged pm, but still, these synth failures are killing me.

Also, can anyone tell me what uber weapon I can might be able to synth with this Par Walna I picked up this morning (11*)?

Kuya

Dec 18, 2006, 04:37 PM

For Killer shot and all the Ultimate PAs - they level just like normal bullets right? Maybe it just needs higher levels to be more effective? If there are no levels or leveling doesn't help it too much, I might have to reconsider getting killer shot and maybe going for Perfect Freeze.

Itsuki

Dec 18, 2006, 06:03 PM

you should probably get perfect freeze either way if you're a fortegunner. But yes, the level SHOULD increase its effectiveness. I'm not sure on exactly the amount, but it should increase. Over the next few days, I'm going to be leveling killer shot as much as possible, but it takes time. A lot of time. Time I don't have. I don't think it will ever become stupidly effective, and in may areas, your other elements may still be more effective. You also have to consider its cost, it can never be your primary bullet unless you carry around 30 rifles. 48pp per shot at 21+

And it does level like normal Bullets, and I'd probably say about the same speed, except for the fact that it uses 4x pp, so you're either going to need to do like I do and bring around 12 rifles, or just level it slowly over time.

EDIT: And I thought you could freeze leaders and such, but upon further trying, I couldn't. I don't know if this is a change or its always been this way, but I'd never notice you couldn't before. Perhaps its because normally they die rather fast.

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-18 15:04 ]

Alisha

Dec 19, 2006, 01:08 AM

is zodial good enough online to allow wartechers to get some use out of bows/cards?

Itsuki

Dec 19, 2006, 02:38 AM

bows and cards have ATA high enough that they shouldn't need zodial.

Alisha

Dec 19, 2006, 03:04 AM

even with pa's equiped?

Itsuki

Dec 19, 2006, 04:16 AM

Well, lets take some examples:

Cast wartecher 60/10 with an 8 star kubara card (if you're REALLY looking for ATA) -> 513 ATA
Cast guntecher 60/10 with an 8 star Twin Handgun -> 502 ATA

Cast wartecher with 8 star kubara longbow -> 516 ATA
Cast guntecher with 8 star rifle -> 550 ATA

This is using the kubara though, which would be taking a hit to damage (137atp dif for bow, 57atp diff for card). Not using card, you'd have to subtract off about 50 ata from those numbers, which is a still a quite respectable amount of ata. Some S-rank should give you a little trouble, but in those areas, everyone is going to need zodial except for fortegunners (unless the fortegunner is using a shotgun). A lot of people even opt to use the 6 star kubara bows, which grind the best out of all bows, and has respectable ATA (almost equivalent to the non-kubara 8 star).

Simply put, a wartecher using cards/bows only has as much trouble as a guntecher at hitting things.

With PAs counted in, you're still going to hit more often with the card/bows than you will with melee attacks (Though melee you can spin behind).

More numbers (with pa) (using cast for base again, don't know why, but its a habit for ranger things):
fG with shotgun - 367 ATA
fG with twins - 466 ATA
fG with rifle - 495 ATA

GT with shotgun - 301 ATA
GT with twins - 384 ATA
GT with rifle - 412 ATA

WT with card - 425 ATA (kubara) / 380 ATA (non-kubara)
WT with bow - 450 ATA (kubara) / 401 ATA (non-lkubara)

-Shimarisu-

Dec 19, 2006, 04:24 AM

Hell even beast wartechers should have no probs with that kubara 8* bow. I made one today for just that purpose.

Ether

Dec 19, 2006, 07:23 AM

Quick question, does anyone know exactly what Giga / Bullet PP Save does? The name makes it sound like it lowers PP cost from guns, the stats (http://www.pso-world.com/psu/items/1439/1938.jpg) makes it looks like it raises bullet cost and lowers skills, and the description has an odd sounding "wakens latent abilities" (http://www.pso-world.com/psu/items/1439/1939.jpg)

If all it does is lower PP cost from guns, wouldnt 50 atp from a mega / power be better?

Itsuki

Dec 19, 2006, 11:26 AM

Might be a typo, you know how US PSU is. But it should be 75% bullet PP usage and 150% skill pp usage. Depending on what you're using and how you're using it, it could be better. For example, if all you use is rifles and shotguns, its probably not useful to you. But if you're say... using gernades or lasers... or a large number of different types of weapons, then its probably more advantageous than a Mega/Power or a Stella/PowerS.

Dusk21

Dec 19, 2006, 01:28 PM

On 2006-12-17 07:48, Itsuki-chan wrote:
They function the same as normal bullets. You equip them, and they replace the normal shot. You can't have both bullets equipped, just one at a time.

This makes me sad, and kinda makes me question a few of those PAs...alot. Card PA just became useless to me, so did duals, bow...well pretty much all of them except xbow and rifle. Oh well I guess.

Theres somethin thats buggin me now though. Is there anything special about the Tengoh Bow? Special effects or anything? Or does it grind well? I've been playin around with one and I can't see anything special, which is a bit disappointing considering how stellar weapons like the Deljabaner are. I have to assume it grinds well or somethin I suppose.

Itsuki

Dec 19, 2006, 01:48 PM

Nah, actually it grinds like crap. It does regen PP faster... and I guess it does have the highest PP of all bows. But its ATP and ATA are rather low. The two shining bows are the 6* and 8* Kubara, which both grind great. Well, the 8* not quite as well, but the 8* has comparable PP to the tengohg.

8* kubara stats at +10: 675 ATP, 340 ATA, 1540 PP
6* kubara stats at +10: 667 ATP, 268 ATA, 1274 PP

I don't erally know how the normal A-ranks grind, none of the japaanese have grinded them past +3 or so, but they look rather low and meh.

Dusk21

Dec 19, 2006, 02:18 PM

Even more disappointing ;_;. I've just been using 2x Roksari, love the look too much and my luck with grinding is such utter garbage that I'd probably spend more tryin to get alterics high enough to beat them.

But while I'm on the subject of enemy weapons, how is the Degahna Cannon. I kinda want one if its good, I've been thinking about actually using cannons for the advanced PA mostly, for enemies with megid and such.

Itsuki

Dec 19, 2006, 03:39 PM

megid is the least of your worries, and the laser PA has a problem with knocking things around. But the Deganna cannon is GOOD. It supposedly grinds good too, but nobody is crazy enough to try.

8* laser - 500 ATP, 145 ATA, 1134 PP
9* laser - 541 ATP, 160 ATA, 1166 PP
Deganna - 543 ATP, 160 ATA, 1632 PP

panzer_unit

Dec 19, 2006, 03:49 PM

Too bad the laser's ultimate PA isn't a freeze... you could line up that perfect shot, then take it over and over again.

Dusk21

Dec 19, 2006, 05:36 PM

To be honest I've never been that impressed with cannons, since they're a purely damage weapon and I find the damage in most situations to be mediocre, although sometimes its awesome its just so situational. I would, however, use it just for the advanced PA for another layer of battle control. I don't feel as if my atp is enough to warrant one otherwise, those PA slots could go to more important things and to use cannons fully aside from that PA I'd have to use more PA slots than I'm willing to sacrifice.

Those stats are certainly very nice, and I know my party wants very badly to do temple S so hopefully once that gets released I'll be able to try it out, maybe it'll change my mind.

Sitka

Dec 20, 2006, 03:43 PM

I will try the Laser just because my primary character is a fortegunner and I want to make full use of his arsenal of weapons.

However, I'm mostly using Rifles 95% of the time and Grenade Launchers for a few occasions. I'm not very excited about the "Ultimate Arts" available for Fortegunners - in fact, they look like they really suck.

A question I have:

I have found locations on various maps where I can get a sweet spot and using the scope view snipe enemies without them rushing me. This is handy for running solo with a stupid NPC and a stupid 450 pm who don't know when to heal and me a cast without the ability to heal anything but myself.

When I scope snipe, I'm using the Burst Rifle or the Vullseye Rifle. Is there a rifle, bullet, art, or other weapon (laser?) that has greater range allowing for more effective sniping?

Now at level 59, I'm convinced that a cast forteranger is one of the more annoying characters to run solo for leveling due to the lack of resta.

Kuya

Dec 20, 2006, 04:27 PM

As bullets are leveled, the range of the rifle actually increases. In fact, ALL guns increase range slightly at the 11 and 21 marks except for grenades.

Itsuki

Dec 30, 2006, 06:19 AM

::Casts giresta on thread::

got something special for you all today. I brought my settings down to craptastic, and recorded part of a Hakura run using Killer Shot. I know the quality is bad, but its still really good for judging how much killer shot works. And boy does it work a lot.

A few things to keep in mind:
- I'm carrying 13 rifles, all 13 were emptied in about 1.75 blocks
- half of them are ungrinded 3* rifles for PP recharge reasons. As it is, it costs me ~4000 meseta a run to recharge. Using all B-rank it'd cost close to 7000. The reward for the mission is only 2800 meseta. XD
- You can basically consider almost any kill I get as a killer shot kill since I'm dealing like 30 to monsters with like 7000hp.
- Just look at the exp I'm raking in, its sick
- Oh, and the Hakura S run took around... 25 minutes.

http://rapidshare.com/files/9507760/KillerShotTest.avi.html

(I also bust out some twin mayalee in there somewhere)

imfanboy

Dec 30, 2006, 06:51 AM

Your character's voice is cute.

And at last, a REASON to use rifles!

I always felt kind of sick that bows leveled up so much faster that they seduced me away from rifles... but now! OMG!

I'm glad I've got about 200 PA frags saved already n.n

Hrith

Dec 30, 2006, 08:04 AM

silly Guntechers

ChyronType0

Dec 30, 2006, 10:11 AM

Wow. Killer Shot is awesome. What lvl is Killer Shot in that vid?

Itsuki

Dec 30, 2006, 12:18 PM

Thats level 16 killer shot. Its status effect actually works more often at 21+ but I doubt mine will get to 21+ any time soon.

EDIT: And also, it only really shines in a few places. These are mainly places with explody robots since these robots have effectively no STA at all. Thats why I recorded in Hakura.

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-30 09:22 ]

Solo_Wing

Dec 30, 2006, 11:21 PM

Nice Vid http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Gen2000

Dec 31, 2006, 12:19 AM

Nice vid, wonder how effective/broken a full squad of Rangers spamming Killer Shot lv.11+ would be (more shots on same target = faster chance of death), or even lv.21+ if anyone in JPN has it to that level yet. And that experience gain from that place is indeed sick, can't wait to play it.

Do you think you make a vid of the new Laser Cannon PA in action as well?

Itsuki

Dec 31, 2006, 12:37 AM

I'd have to ask one of the players I play with. I don't have the PA myself, nor am I about to waste 90 PA Frags on a weapon I don't use. But he has the laser PA and the gernade launcher PA (Hell, he has the rifle one too).

EDIT: And I don't know how hot more than 2 or 3 rangers in a party there would be with killer shot. The problem is, if you get a newman spawn, you're pretty much screwed. With the amount that the newman heal themselves, I doubt a party with more than 2 rangers could clear them effectively. But other than that, it might be really interesting to see.

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-12-30 21:43 ]

SolomonGrundy

Dec 31, 2006, 01:41 AM

43.7 MB :-/ *waits patiently*

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

10Q for the vid!

ChyronType0

Dec 31, 2006, 03:18 AM

Time to buy more rifles......

Turambar

Jan 4, 2007, 07:27 PM

Time to grind more falgohohs.... The PP it sucks up is quite horrendous though.....not for the everyday spam I suppose.

Armok

Jan 4, 2007, 08:56 PM

I knew those +10 brahoh rifles I spent ages grinding would come in useful eventually. 1470pp for 100mest. Value you cannot beat.

Kuya

Jan 4, 2007, 10:15 PM

lol - you won't be able to find cheap rifles http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif I've bought a whole crapload and now I've got 8 +5-6 Blasters and 6 +5 Brahohs. Of course I still have my 2 +10 Blasters and 1 +10 Brahoh which got me through 15-40 with no problems.

Itsuki

Jan 4, 2007, 10:46 PM

Theres an unbelievably huge amount of Falgohoh dropping on the JP server, which would probably be my weapon of choice for Killer shot, and they still go for like 20-25k. Its silly. ~_~ Most 6* weapons that drop go for like 6-7k. Brahoh really are a decent alternative though. I only like Falgohoh better because I need to carry less of them, and the ATA is quite a bit better. But the PP cost to refill is pretty horrendous. Perhaps its a good thing I don't get to use killer shot often.

Itsuki

Jan 5, 2007, 06:22 AM

OMG, another video.

This time is a 5 person party in Hakura S. 3 Guntechers, 1 Fortegunner, and a Fortecher. I call this the "firing squad" video because all 4 ranger types are using killer shot. Also, I'd like to add that only me and the force are using our main jobs in this video.

This is far from ideal though. There are a few problems involved. Heres some key points about the video:
- Rangers aren't particularly good at killing the newman.
- It wasn't the ideal spawn and there were a large number of newman
- Ideally it'd be a 6 person party with atleast 1 hunter and 1 force
- I'm not sure on Wren's Killer Shot level (its atleast 11+), but mine is only 17, and I believe Lyrise and Lina's are both under level 10.
- I'm once again lagging and feeling some unresponsiveness due to recording. (I wish my computer didn't suck)
- I included the entire thing from beginning to end. The newman fighting was important to this too
- I even included my 30 second loading time between blocks. This is long partially because of the recording, and partially because of lack of ram. I was too lazy to cut it out.
- 12 minute video, I only cover blocks 1 and 2. The entire run took I think just over 14 minutes to get to the boss, and about 17 with boss included. 2x scaped deaths.

Lastly, yes, I know this video is huge. Deal with it. XD

157MB, 12 min -> http://www.badongo.com/vid/266463

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-01-05 03:23 ]

Gen2000

Jan 5, 2007, 10:50 AM

Good stuff Itsuki, exactly the type of stuff I was looking for. Downloading now, will comment on it later.

Edit (Done watching): You guys were making fast sweeps of rooms, hard to tell it was Srank GoF, mass Killer Shot spam seems to be the future haha.

Are the enemy Newmans immune to Killer Shot or have such a large resistance to it that it makes it pointless/waste of ammo to try using it against them? Just wondering because I haven't seen anyone really try it on them in the vids, Wren seems to do so alittle bit but then the camera shifts off him and didn't see how effective it was. Everyone switching to non KS weapons when the Newmans spawn leads me to believe it's pointless to use against them.

The FO using Megid, did he actually kill anything with it? Saw alot of Megid slinging but can't recall it actually killing anything before Killer Shot did. I was looking forward to using on my FO but the effect rate seems poor. Not good.

[ This Message was edited by: Gen2000 on 2007-01-05 09:16 ]

Kuya

Jan 5, 2007, 02:19 PM

As far as the Falgohohs go, I picked up my 3 (All +6) for between 5-7k so I would LOVE to continue getting them at that price lol. I do agree that the Falgohohs have a much higher Acc stat but the amount of B rifles that I would want to carry would probably make recharges retardly too great. Until then, I'll keep hunting PhotonChargeCosmos to prepare for B rifle spam! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Itsuki

Jan 5, 2007, 04:32 PM

Are the enemy Newmans immune to Killer Shot or have such a large resistance to it that it makes it pointless/waste of ammo to try using it against them? Just wondering because I haven't seen anyone really try it on them in the vids, Wren seems to do so alittle bit but then the camera shifts off him and didn't see how effective it was. Everyone switching to non KS weapons when the Newmans spawn leads me to believe it's pointless to use against them.

They're damn near immune to all status effects. Its not even worth it to try to silence them. The real trick to them is just to spread DoT (preferably crossbows), then spike damage each one individually. Everyone gang banging them one at a time so they can't heal.

The FO was using megid and megiverse (megiverse doesn't one shot though). But I doubt he got very many kills. He made some comments about how he was having a hard time even tagging later on (not that he needed to, hes 70). Megid has a lower kill rate than the rifles. Even at his level of megid, it probably has the same kill rate as the level 1-10 rifles. It also moves horrendously slow (like half the speed of barta). Makes it hard to hit things with.

We also repeated the same sort of tacting through Endrum with similar success. Throwing some burn traps at bugs. The low ATA on killer shot makes it so its even harder to hit the bugs. Also Endrum is an 80+ area (while Hakura is only a 70+ area), so the monsters are overall stronger (and give more exp).

Overall, I can't say its entirely worth it though. For exp, the party is great, but once you hit the cap, the mission points in it and meseta reward don't outweight the cost. In Endrum and maybe Megahna kind of 80+ areas, its more viable. Those places atleast have the drops to support it (aswell as the explody mechs to eat through). They may not have as many mechs and look as good as Hakura does, but Hakura doesn't have a whole lot to offer in return.

SolomonGrundy

Jan 5, 2007, 04:44 PM

yeah but at this point, what else are you going to DO with the money? These runs are not about making meseta, they are about leveling the rifle PA, right?

Itsuki

Jan 5, 2007, 04:47 PM

For me they were, ya. XD and for EXP. Since as you can see, I'm not level 70 yet, and I can pull 12k+ for a relatively quick run.

For actual EXP parties, it really seems like Agata Relics S is the popular choice though. While Hakura offers the EXP in a properly suited party, Agata Relics can take almost any party and work well. Also, the drops in Agata Relics S are quite good (8 star wand, 8 star claw, lots of ores). It seems most people are resorting to afk leveling their killer shot.

SolomonGrundy

Jan 5, 2007, 05:12 PM

Agata Relics has the good enemy density. And everything is the same element, which helps when picking an armor. I am low level (41, Hunter 9), and I do speed runs there with C Rank armor with 20 light great XP, decent MP, and lots of stuff to feed my Mag.

Is this the only "special" bullet you will level? Also, have you tried leveling the rifle in lower level missions? (Since I would assume resistance to killer shot would be lower)

Itsuki

Jan 5, 2007, 05:30 PM

I've run some other areas with it. Truth is, the kill rate isn't really higher on lower levels of difficulty.

I'm also leveling Twin Mayalee. I'm probably going to wait out on anything else though.

SolomonGrundy

Jan 5, 2007, 06:38 PM

I've run some other areas with it. Truth is, the kill rate isn't really higher on lower levels of difficulty.

got it - so why NOT get the good XP http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I'm also leveling Twin Mayalee. I'm probably going to wait out on anything else though.

Really? really? Assume that the debuff effect is ties to SE level - that means it would not work on bosses, which are really the only guys I care about debuffing. Well maybe "crown" or "shield" type enemies as well. I thought you said the card PA was pretty great - or is this mroe of a conservation of the PA fragments

Itsuki

Jan 5, 2007, 06:48 PM

I just don't have anything else I particularly want to get. I mean, the crossbow one looks somewhat appealing. But the truth is, its not safe for me, nor will the healers in my party really allow me to go below 75% hp. So the boost in attack almost never happens. Also, the shotgun one looks appealing, but... I don't really have the ATP to use shotguns. Lets break it down:

Handgun - I have resta, don't need a high PP cost heal.
Mechgun - 1% ATA? Screw that.
Card - I have resta, don't need a high PP cost heal.
Crossbow - I get healed too often and don't have the HP reserves to make use of it.

Rifle - Have
Twin Handgun - Have
Shotgun - Useful, but my ATP would make me need to switch weapons a lot.
Bow - I don't use bows
Laser - I don't use lasers, and the skill really moves monsters around too much.
Gernade - I can't use gernades

EDIT: Keep in mind my playstyle. I generally lean more towards things that make the entire party kill better and faster, relaxing my own damage dealing ability. I usually prefer paralysis over DoTs. Twin Mayalee deals a decent bit of damage (10% more than elemental) and has the Defdeal effect (SE3 at 21+). This makes it effectively almost as powerful as a elemental bullet. And not only does it make you deal more, it makes everyone else in party deal more. This means its a real prime choice for me. In a party with several hunters, I can use mayalee twins, then switch to crossbow/resta wand and be more useful (atleast for my playstyle).

[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2007-01-05 15:52 ]

SolomonGrundy

Jan 5, 2007, 07:36 PM

On 2007-01-05 15:48, Itsuki-chan wrote:
I just don't have anything else I particularly want to get. I mean, the crossbow one looks somewhat appealing. But the truth is, its not safe for me, nor will the healers in my party really allow me to go below 75% hp.

Ahh - didn't even consider that...good point. Better for solo folks.

Handgun - I have resta, don't need a high PP cost heal.

yeah, this is a Figunner special, or maybe fortefighter

Mechgun - 1% ATA? Screw that.

Whoa! 1% - the description just said low http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Card - I have resta, don't need a high PP cost heal.

But the descrition says Normal - I would think it was a cheaper heal than a wand. And if it's like the PSO version of HP steal, then HP stolen = damage. Even better, now imagine your wand in the other hand with debuffs (jellen/zalure) in it, rather than resta....that's the way I am leaning

Crossbow - I get healed too often and don't have the HP reserves to make use of it.

Agree - not that you need my agreement. lol.

Shotgun - Useful, but my ATP would make me need to switch weapons a lot.

Surprising, I thought shots had near infinite PP. Also, what kind of restriction is "high ATA" (you need a lot of ATA to use this?

Bow - I don't use bows

??> why not? they bypass defense! I thought Fire Bow was the "boss k*113r l0lz"

Laser - I don't use lasers, and the skill really moves monsters around too much.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the deal with lasers are.

EDIT: Keep in mind my playstyle. I generally lean more towards things that make the entire party kill better and faster, relaxing my own damage dealing ability. I usually prefer paralysis over DoTs. Twin Mayalee deals a decent bit of damage (10% more than elemental) and has the Defdeal effect (SE3 at 21+). This makes it effectively almost as powerful as a elemental bullet. And not only does it make you deal more, it makes everyone else in party deal more. This means its a real prime choice for me. In a party with several hunters, I can use mayalee twins, then switch to crossbow/resta wand and be more useful (atleast for my playstyle).

wait - I thought twin handgun was SE2 at 21+? I support your playstyle - did not mean to question I guess I was just wondering about a few things.

Itsuki

Jan 5, 2007, 07:59 PM

Shotgun - Useful, but my ATP would make me need to switch weapons a lot.
Surprising, I thought shots had near infinite PP. Also, what kind of restriction is "high ATA" (you need a lot of ATA to use this?
You misunderstand. The high ATA is a plus. The bullet has like twice the ATA of normal shotgun shots, and Zodeel to boot. My ATP is the problem. I mean, its great for spreading the status effect, and you can reliably do it because of the high ATA. And PP isn't the issue here. Its just that I'd you know, shoot off the shotgun a couple times, and then I'd need to switch to another weapon. While Twin Mayalee on the other hand, if the monster is going to die relatively fast, and I don't need another status effect, I can just stay on Twin Mayalee because the ATP on it is quite respeactable. Its also ONLY level 2 Zodeel we're talking about. Thats not too too different from Level 1, and if I just want to cast it on everything in the room, I can very well do that with a wand.

wait - I thought twin handgun was SE2 at 21+? I support your playstyle - did not mean to question I guess I was just wondering about a few things.
I never said you were really questioning it. I just thought some insight into my playstyle might help show why I'm not really getting the other Bullets. Also Twin Mayalee is special. It starts out at level 1 Defdeal and goes up to level 3 Defdeal at 21+. The shotgun one also goes SE1 -> SE1 -> SE2.

Card - I have resta, don't need a high PP cost heal.
But the descrition says Normal - I would think it was a cheaper heal than a wand. And if it's like the PSO version of HP steal, then HP stolen = damage. Even better, now imagine your wand in the other hand with debuffs (jellen/zalure) in it, rather than resta....that's the way I am leaning
I don't know how much you resta for. But at 36 PP a shot, for only a like 20x3 HP heal, I think its cheaper to cast resta >.>

Bow - I don't use bows
??> why not? they bypass defense! I thought Fire Bow was the "boss k*113r l0lz"
I'm a firm believer that you really should choose between rifles and bows. Truth is, the damage between them is about equal against nearly everything. Bow is slightly higher because of the defence piercing, but fires noticably slower to compensate. This means rifles are better at applying status effects (like the fire that so "boss k*113r l0lz"). Rifles also have better range, and less start up time (meaning they more reliably hit their targets). Bows on the other hand have the defence piercing thing, which means you don't need to go first person on bosses like de ragan. Bow also level up faster. And lastly, Bows just look cool. But.. I prefer laying down more status effects, so I'm a rifle kinda person.

etlitch

Jan 5, 2007, 08:31 PM

Bows stink at dealing status effects and any "real" ranger class should'nt be using bow because of that.

The defence disregard blows, your average cannon fodder(non-minoboss) on S rank or lv 65+ is going to have enough dfp to block around 50 dmg. Oh my~ really, ranger classes should'nt be choosing damage over status effects even if bows were better. It's not ragnarok online where high-tier enemies had defence that both blocked 100+ of your damage and reduced it by 40%...

SolomonGrundy

Jan 5, 2007, 08:59 PM

You misunderstand. The high ATA is a plus. The bullet has like twice the ATA of normal shotgun shots, and Zodeel to boot. My ATP is the problem. I mean, its great for spreading the status effect, and you can reliably do it because of the high ATA. And PP isn't the issue here. Its just that I'd you know, shoot off the shotgun a couple times, and then I'd need to switch to another weapon.

I see - so once everything in the room is 'Zodeeled', you would switch because you want to deal the damage - got it (ok, well that and you can't use S-rank shots, so maybe there is some level of planning)

While Twin Mayalee on the other hand, if the monster is going to die relatively fast, and I don't need another status effect, I can just stay on Twin Mayalee because the ATP on it is quite respeactable.

well, it's the SE3 that makes this worthwhile, really. I would think that with a mixed party (hunters, rangers and FOs) it would be better to nullify the opponent's offesive schemes, than add to your own already formidable ones. Like if there were a 'perfect silence' twin handgun

Its also ONLY level 2 Zodeel we're talking about. Thats not too too different from Level 1, and if I just want to cast it on everything in the room, I can very well do that with a wand.

yeah well, how many wands are you really gonna carry?

I never said you were really questioning it. I just thought some insight into my playstyle might help show why I'm not really getting the other Bullets. Also Twin Mayalee is special. It starts out at level 1 Defdeal and goes up to level 3 Defdeal at 21+. The shotgun one also goes SE1 -> SE1 -> SE2.

yup, jsut wanted to make it clear in case it appeared I was questioning you. it is interesting to me that these ultimate PAs have different evolutions for guns than normal.

I don't know how much you resta for. But at 36 PP a shot, for only a like 20x3 HP heal, I think its cheaper to cast resta >.>

um...that's it? it's got to be more than that. Is that at level 21+ *cries*

I'm a firm believer that you really should choose between rifles and bows. Truth is, the damage between them is about equal against nearly everything. Bow is slightly higher because of the defence piercing, but fires noticably slower to compensate.

otay. I was kinda curious. My thinking was that Guntecker = bow (since thay can use them, and not many expert classes can)

And over you, Mr....

Bows stink at dealing status effects and any "real" ranger class should'nt be using bow because of that.

Thay should be as good as Rifles. Both apply SE 4.

etlitch

Jan 5, 2007, 09:43 PM

Look, I'm hungry - which means that go and order an pizza, which takes 15 mins or drive to town and buy a hamburger that takes 5 mins. I want food, fast. Which one do you think that I choose?

I'm not even sure if the chance of SEs landing is based on it's level or whatever else, but I'm sure the rifles SE are going to land faster and more often due to it's better rate of fire. I've used lv11+ bow bullets, I've used lv11+ rifle bullets.

I pretty much forgot that bows would inflict SEs at all when used. That's how often bow SEs land. No, it has nothing to do with hitrate/ATA, my chars are highlvl enough plus zodiaride boost.

/e just looked up. secure freeze launchers only starts with 1 target frozen? You need to lvl it to get 3 targets, wth PP consumption is already high as it is at lv1.

MG bullets also PP eater, I sure hope that ROF actually gets somewhere near the one of an iRL full auto rifle or smg.

[ This Message was edited by: etlitch on 2007-01-05 18:51 ]

Ledin

Jan 6, 2007, 06:52 AM

On 2007-01-05 18:43, etlitch wrote:
Look, I'm hungry - which means that go and order an pizza, which takes 15 mins or drive to town and buy a hamburger that takes 5 mins. I want food, fast. Which one do you think that I choose?

I'm not even sure if the chance of SEs landing is based on it's level or whatever else, but I'm sure the rifles SE are going to land faster and more often due to it's better rate of fire. I've used lv11+ bow bullets, I've used lv11+ rifle bullets.

I pretty much forgot that bows would inflict SEs at all when used. That's how often bow SEs land. No, it has nothing to do with hitrate/ATA, my chars are highlvl enough plus zodiaride boost.
I have 4 elemental bullets at 21+ for rifle (boy, that took a while...) and also 4 elemental bullets at 25+ for bow. I eventually decided to switch to bow in favor of style. I don't know what game you are playing, but I generally have no problems inflicting Burn SE on Tenghogs/Jarbas/etc. with my bow (Newman Guntecher 10, level 60, using Burst and Roksari, if it matters).

Keep in mind that rifle gets a bigger boost from your base ATP, making it a natural choice for Casts...but Newmans really get the shaft. My damage skyrocketed after I switched to bow, and that's not just because of the marginal bonus damage they gain from ignoring the enemy DFP. It evens out with the slower firing rate of course.

I agree with Itsuki-chan, it's a choice depending almost entirely on personal taste. There is no clear-cut right or wrong in the rifle vs. bow debate.

[ This Message was edited by: Ledin on 2007-01-06 04:16 ]

Gen2000

Jan 6, 2007, 10:05 AM

On 2007-01-05 13:32, Itsuki-chan wrote:
[quote]
Overall, I can't say its entirely worth it though. For exp, the party is great, but once you hit the cap, the mission points in it and meseta reward don't outweight the cost. In Endrum and maybe Megahna kind of 80+ areas, its more viable. Those places atleast have the drops to support it (aswell as the explody mechs to eat through). They may not have as many mechs and look as good as Hakura does, but Hakura doesn't have a whole lot to offer in return.

What's the Mission Point/Meseta reward for S Hakura vs. Endrum and Megahna if you know offhand? Or if possible point in the direction where they are listed.

Can't exactly say I'm excited to hear Agata Relics S being the future hotspot of choice but at least it's more exciting than Mizu/Onma S.

Itsuki

Jan 6, 2007, 12:36 PM

They're all pretty horrible in the "end of mission bonus" kind of way. But if it matters:

2800 / 25 for Hakura
3350 / 30 for Endrum
I'm not sure about megahna.

But nobody does normal missions for mission points and meseta. Its just plain stupid. If you want them, you do party missions. Its just far more effecient. Heres the break down for party missions:
5100 / 55 for Agata Onma
6900 / 69 for Caves Deima (Trap cave)

And both of these missions super easy missions that are pretty fast to do and have low level requirements. Theres almost no reason not to do one of these two missions if you want MP / Meseta.

And if you really want to throw it in there, theres always Bruces dungeon. Which is 15000 / 150 for A-rank, and 7000 / 70 for B-rank.

Septar

Jan 7, 2007, 12:10 AM

Wait, rangers can't use bows online? That's crap. Using a bow requires alot more skill then using a gun :|

Sgt_Shligger

Jan 7, 2007, 01:59 AM

A bow isn't a physical weapon.

Elemental bullets are switched off with your mental energy. . . The reason you learn the skill and not just "equip" it. With the photon long bow, you use mental energy to form the "arrow" or bolt. This is why forces get the weapon. . .

Also, people who can use bows are: Forces, Fortechers, Wartechers, Guntechers, and Protransers.

Septar

Jan 7, 2007, 04:05 AM

On 2007-01-06 22:59, Sgt_Shliggy wrote:
A bow isn't a physical weapon.

Elemental bullets are switched off with your mental energy. . . The reason you learn the skill and not just "equip" it. With the photon long bow, you use mental energy to form the "arrow" or bolt. This is why forces get the weapon. . .

Also, people who can use bows are: Forces, Fortechers, Wartechers, Guntechers, and Protransers.

Aww, damn. That's too bad. I love bows, and I love casts :|

Itsuki

Jan 7, 2007, 04:49 AM

If you notice, it doesn't use arrows it uses.... MIND BULLETS!!! (sorry, I had to say it)

imfanboy

Jan 7, 2007, 05:50 AM

On 2007-01-07 01:49, Itsuki-chan wrote:
If you notice, it doesn't use arrows it uses.... MIND BULLETS!!! (sorry, I had to say it)

Mind bullest are nothing, but from how far away can they kill a yak?

Sgt_Shligger

Jan 7, 2007, 03:15 PM

On 2007-01-07 01:49, Itsuki-chan wrote:
If you notice, it doesn't use arrows it uses.... MIND BULLETS!!! (sorry, I had to say it)

Is that some inside joke >_>;;

And Septar, you can be a cast that goes Guntecher so you can get the bow. . . ;D Protranser would be a better choice for a cast in my opinion.

Itsuki

Jan 7, 2007, 04:23 PM

Casts actually make great Wartechers I think.

And the reference is to Tenaciou's D. The actual lyric is "How 'bout the power to kill a yak from 200 yards away... with mind bullets! That's telekinesis, Kyle."

EC_Subbie

Jan 7, 2007, 06:17 PM

Ok here's something I don't has been discussed yet. It seems that the Phantom rifle + Phantom Line armor were made with Fortegunners in mind. What are the benefits of both when paired together in a set? I've heard of bonus stats, not sure how much of a boost we're talking about,and I heard about a megid aura emitted from the armor. I also heard that when paired with Killer Shot on the Phantom, with the Phantom set..it boosts your Killer shot insta-kill rate. Can anyone confirm these for me and provide specifically how much of a bonus you get for the set?

Septar

Jan 7, 2007, 07:05 PM

On 2007-01-07 12:15, Sgt_Shliggy wrote:

On 2007-01-07 01:49, Itsuki-chan wrote:
If you notice, it doesn't use arrows it uses.... MIND BULLETS!!! (sorry, I had to say it)

Is that some inside joke >_>;;

And Septar, you can be a cast that goes Guntecher so you can get the bow. . . ;D Protranser would be a better choice for a cast in my opinion.

Yeah, I know.. It's just.. I want all the other guns too D:
You just can't have it all, even in videogames T_T

Itsuki

Jan 8, 2007, 01:00 AM

On 2007-01-07 15:17, EC_Subbie wrote:
Ok here's something I don't has been discussed yet. It seems that the Phantom rifle + Phantom Line armor were made with Fortegunners in mind. What are the benefits of both when paired together in a set? I've heard of bonus stats, not sure how much of a boost we're talking about,and I heard about a megid aura emitted from the armor. I also heard that when paired with Killer Shot on the Phantom, with the Phantom set..it boosts your Killer shot insta-kill rate. Can anyone confirm these for me and provide specifically how much of a bonus you get for the set?

Someone I play with uses that set. I believe its 25% more ATP, ATA, and DEF of the equipment only.

But it does not boost any PAs any at all. Including killer shot. There is no megid aura from the armor. If someone saw a picture of that, that had to have been from that other unit.

It also goes worth mentioning that the phantom set probably outdamages bows. But thats quite end game.

EC_Subbie

Jan 8, 2007, 04:40 AM

Wow a 25% boost is about what I was hoping to hear...that's an extra 135 atp just for having the set..not taking into account any grinding later on. I have the armor at the moment, so I guess it will be well worth it to wear the set. The aura thing doesn't matter too much but it would've looked really cool. Another gunner who told me that and the PA info must've been misinformed I guess.

Solo_Wing

Jan 8, 2007, 07:13 AM

i'm also looking forward to the phantom combo, quick question tho, in the JP version is the phantom rifle board in stores or a drop only? if its only dropped is there a specific place?

-Shimarisu-

Jan 8, 2007, 07:31 AM

On 2007-01-06 03:52, Ledin wrote:

I agree with Itsuki-chan, it's a choice depending almost entirely on personal taste. There is no clear-cut right or wrong in the rifle vs. bow debate.

[ This Message was edited by: Ledin on 2007-01-06 04:16 ]

I levelled both because I'm smart and I still maintain they have different applications.

I use rifles to cast status on bunches of little stuff, or to hit stuff that's too far away, or when the damage I want to inflict with SE is IMPORTANT (it often isn't, bow fire SE4 will do more damage on Goshins than rifle SE4. But I will use either depending on which is PP depleted).

I use bows on bosses, flying enemies (I SWEAR the higher landed damage has more chance of knocking them out of the sky), anything I want to inflict actual damage on (especially if I'm soloing). Also to level annoying, not often used status bullets that have less practical application than others. Because you know, rifles are HELL to level.

Being guntecher, I'll also use bows in areas where my rifle isn't hitting as well. That's a few S ranked monsters. It'll be better when I get a better rifle, but money IS an issue on 360.

You can level both anyway. I haven't learned any techs besides resta and reverser this time round, I WILL learn Diga when I feel I need it (not doing plant yet, but then again, I'm saving for advanced bullets. I dunno if I'll need it at that point). So I have a lot of PA slots free for bullets. I doubt I'll learn earth based bullets for rifle as twin handguns spread that effect around well enough, there aren't enough larger monsters that NEED silence to warrent levelling it as well as the bow equivalent anyway. Bow works fine for SE4 silence. Anyway yeah. Rifle is annoying to level and it's a great idea to level bow when you are a Force (haha hello being booted from parties by snooty people for having no attack techs, mind you!) so you have backup when you DON'T yet have SE4 on a rifle, but do level rifle every chance you get.

Gen2000

Jan 8, 2007, 09:16 AM

For SEs Rifles are an obvious choice the firerate can't be ignored but for actual damage I found Bows are better for Guntechers, Fortegunners obviously don't have a choice. I mean in the end after some comparing I found some of the weapon choices SonicTeam decided on the GT interesting. GTs can deal a lot of damage with Force weapons since those weapons try to make up for the fact that FOs have crappy ATP through things like crazy elemental bonuses or odd things like defense ignoring so a race like a Cast or Human can take advantage of their obvious better ATP than the average pure FO with these weapons.

Example, I switched between GT and fG from time to time and as a GT with my simple 7* Bow at only lv.11+ element was already outdamaging my lv.21+ element 7* Rifle on the same enemy. I'm guessing because Bow's gains insane elemental bonuses at lv.11 (25%, already 3% more than lv.21+ Rifle) and lv.21 (30%) and that whole "ignore defense" thing that I don't really understand but whatever. Even taking into consideration the fire rate of Rifle, it couldn't catch up to Bow's damage output and again this was only a simple lv.11+ Bow vs. a lv.21+ Rifle and I figure at lv.21+ it will completely drawf the damage of using a Rifle.

I also found a similiar comparison with Cards vs. Twins, Cards has slightly higher ATP and gains 21% element bonus at lv.11+ and 25% at lv.21+, only 1% more but adding in the fact of the higher ATP Cards deals more damage. The problem with Cards is that GTs only get Aranks in these and Srank in Twins so in the end Twins will be the better once you gain access to high star versions of them. I don't mind because I personally don't like how cards look on some characters anyway (Dualies always look badass) but for now on the U.S. version Cards > Twins for GTs at the moment imo except flying bosses like Onma (but again you may just prefer using Bow/Rifles in those cases).

I don't think the Phantom Line will be much of a push to use Rifles over as a GT and I agree it seems more suited for fGs. According to psupedia Phantom has 541 ATP and the closest Bow 9* equivalent I saw on there, Uruateri has 595 ATP. Now you do get a 25% ATP bonus (going by Itsuki-chan) with the Phantom Line set but how much of difference will that really +make considering element bonus and defense ignoring properties of Bows? Also as a GT, you may be one of those who like using Mind units to make your Resta less sucky and the PL set lacks that.

Edit: Just noticed I confused psupedia with Itsuki-chan, lol.

[ This Message was edited by: Gen2000 on 2007-01-08 07:49 ]

Hotashi

Jan 8, 2007, 09:54 AM

Phantom has about a 700 ATP stat with the combo.

Gen2000

Jan 8, 2007, 10:48 AM

Yeah just wondering how much of a difference would be with an equal star level Bow because of it's weird defense ignoring property and elemental bonuses.

panzer_unit

Jan 8, 2007, 11:00 AM

On 2007-01-05 15:48, Itsuki-chan wrote:
I just don't have anything else I particularly want to get.

Handgun - I have resta, don't need a high PP cost heal.
Mechgun - 1% ATA? Screw that.
Card - I have resta, don't need a high PP cost heal.
Crossbow - I get healed too often and don't have the HP reserves to make use of it.

Rifle - Have
Twin Handgun - Have
Shotgun - Useful, but my ATP would make me need to switch weapons a lot.
Bow - I don't use bows
Laser - I don't use lasers, and the skill really moves monsters around too much.
Gernade - I can't use gernades

Out of the bunch that are usable for me, I think Handgun and maybe Shotgun are the most appealing... largely for value while soloing or in a team with no Force, since they'll probably provide the same effects for free. Maybe I should be looking at the ultimate melee PA's instead.

Bow - I've got ways to deal with super high evade enemies, and I plan on leveling ALL bow bullets so the damage advantage is negligible. This looks like a skill for forces so they can save 5 PA slots.
Grenade - I've got Perfect Freeze from G traps.
Laser - I've got a grenade.

Itsuki

Jan 8, 2007, 11:13 PM

I use bows on bosses, flying enemies (I SWEAR the higher landed damage has more chance of knocking them out of the sky), anything I want to inflict actual damage on (especially if I'm soloing). Also to level annoying, not often used status bullets that have less practical application than others. Because you know, rifles are HELL to level.

Am I the only one that uses twin handguns for damage? Twin handguns will down onma/deima plenty faster than a bow or a rifle.

i'm also looking forward to the phantom combo, quick question tho, in the JP version is the phantom rifle board in stores or a drop only? if its only dropped is there a specific place?
Sold in stores and drops in Endrum S.

EphekZ

Jan 8, 2007, 11:24 PM

for the phantomline + phantom rifle set, you only get an atp boost of 15... which I dont even think will make a difference...

source- http://psupedia.info/index.php?title=Armors

Itsuki

Jan 8, 2007, 11:32 PM

On 2007-01-08 20:24, darkgunner wrote:
for the phantomline + phantom rifle set, you only get an atp boost of 15... which I dont even think will make a difference...

source- http://psupedia.info/index.php?title=Armors

You're reading that wrong. The armor itself gives +15 ATP wether or not you're using the set.

EphekZ

Jan 8, 2007, 11:39 PM

On 2007-01-08 20:32, Itsuki-chan wrote:

On 2007-01-08 20:24, darkgunner wrote:
for the phantomline + phantom rifle set, you only get an atp boost of 15... which I dont even think will make a difference...

source- http://psupedia.info/index.php?title=Armors

You're reading that wrong. The armor itself gives +15 ATP wether or not you're using the set.

ah, alright then, my apologies.

Gen2000

Jan 9, 2007, 09:44 AM

On 2007-01-08 20:13, Itsuki-chan wrote:

I use bows on bosses, flying enemies (I SWEAR the higher landed damage has more chance of knocking them out of the sky), anything I want to inflict actual damage on (especially if I'm soloing). Also to level annoying, not often used status bullets that have less practical application than others. Because you know, rifles are HELL to level.

Am I the only one that uses twin handguns for damage? Twin handguns will down onma/deima plenty faster than a bow or a rifle.

No, I see Dualies as damage weapons instead of SEs. For Onma bosses I use Dualies when he's landed, fallen, or does that cow tossing move while I'm behind him (and the tornado move on the Desert version), otherwise I use Rifles because it allows me to be in the perfect position to dodge all of attacks and not take any or minor damage while constantly attacking.

panzer_unit

Jan 9, 2007, 09:48 AM

On 2007-01-08 20:13, Itsuki-chan wrote:

Am I the only one that uses twin handguns for damage? Twin handguns will down onma/deima plenty faster than a bow or a rifle.

Some of us can't use dualies.

Hotashi

Jan 9, 2007, 09:48 AM

COW TOSS

Pssh, LV2 Status. Dualies aren't for Status effects, they are for Pure Damage with a side of elements. Twin Freeze is the most practical though. :3....

SolomonGrundy

Jan 9, 2007, 10:05 AM

just a thought....any gun which deliver a technique *higher* than level 10 should be a strong consideration for Guntecher - so the twin pistols and shotgun for sure. Killer Shot, as Itsuki-chan points out by is excellent vs robots, who take 1/2 damage from bullets AND techs.

I personally had higher hopes for the HP drain from cards...I find it hard to believe you only get 60 hp per fan blade http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Solo_Wing

Jan 12, 2007, 11:51 PM

synthed my first Phantom tonight and must say im loving the set bonus with phantom line. used it all night lvling my new rifle bullets, got dark upto lvl 9 and light to 4 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Sitka

Jan 13, 2007, 12:23 AM

I am so fricking jealous right now.

I've failed on three Phantom Line synth attempts thus far - no luck for me.

The Bil de Bears are raping me and my Teroline armor right now.

I love my Bursts, but I am so wanting that Phantom.

GIB!

(O: Rifle Envy)

Gen2000

Jan 13, 2007, 02:02 AM

Well I got a Phantom Line, just need the Rifle and is me or does the new Rifle bullets level faster than the originals?

thefixer

Jan 14, 2007, 01:24 AM

the phantom combo pretty much buries the bow vs rifle debate, imo
i got the phantom line and three phantoms yesterday, and i'm never even considering going guntecher again.

Itsuki

Jan 14, 2007, 01:50 AM

On 2007-01-13 22:24, thefixer wrote:
the phantom combo pretty much buries the bow vs rifle debate, imo
i got the phantom line and three phantoms yesterday, and i'm never even considering going guntecher again.

The only problem is its very expensive and very end game. Maybe once you get there its the thing, but it takes a long time to get there, and until then, bows have their place.

thefixer

Jan 14, 2007, 01:53 AM

fair enough. i don't mean to knock your class like that. at this point in the game, it is the cat's pajamas, but it is certainly subject to change. i'm sure that a +10 A class kubara longbow beats the hell out of the phantom combo when it comes to base damage.

Itsuki

Jan 14, 2007, 02:07 AM

Ya, and bows will always be for the lazy. XD You don't even have to go FPS on dragon, you can just shoot his feet. And the speed that they level is always an undeniable advantage.

Dymalos

Jan 14, 2007, 02:42 AM

On the Dragon I use my Crossbow or my Cards when he is grounded. The DPS on these is much better than anything that either the Rifle or Bow can put out.

-Shimarisu-

Jan 14, 2007, 03:05 AM

So you level both, and does that make you still lazy, or what?

Gen2000

Jan 15, 2007, 09:23 AM

Is there a Bow equivalent to Phantom Set? Psupedia.org kind of mentions one but not exactly confirmed, supposedly Rikaru-senba goes with the 11* Bow Rikataruei...and even still isn't 10* and up Srank anyways? If so then it wouldn't matter to a Guntecher with the Arank Bow limit.

Itsuki

Jan 15, 2007, 01:34 PM

Well, if thats PSU Bible information, then I guess maybe. But that is S-rank territory and unequipable by Guntechers. I think its pretty safe to say there are no Bow sets a guntecher will ever be able to use.

SolomonGrundy

Jan 15, 2007, 09:30 PM

On 2007-01-13 23:42, Dymalos wrote:
On the Dragon I use my Crossbow or my Cards when he is grounded. The DPS on these is much better than anything that either the Rifle or Bow can put out.

must be nice to have money. My Fo's mighty 3* bow is the closest thing to useful I have. 90K for a crossbow? ha!

:-/

thefixer

Jan 15, 2007, 10:40 PM

it's going to take an obscenely high level fortetecher to meet an s rank bow's ata prerequisite. Talk about late game...

Kupi

Jan 15, 2007, 11:07 PM

This is probably the place to ask...

How's the trap usage on the Guntecher? Can they use anything better than the Fighgunner can? Fighgunners cap out at Burn traps; can Guntechers use Virus traps like the Fortegunner and Protranser can?

Itsuki

Jan 15, 2007, 11:47 PM

Nah, fighgunners and guntechers get the same.

Dymalos

Jan 16, 2007, 09:14 AM

So, I'm still a bow user. When we get the Ultimate P.A.s I will probably make myself some Falgohgs and pick up Killer Shot, but that will be my one and only Rifle P.A. I figure that the Defense bypass will only get better as we begin recieving S2 Missions. But my primary reason for using the Bows is because I'm a Beast and I need the ACC for now, but heck with the 340 Acc on the Hanmateric I am able to shoot the lvl 65 Mizura from the front.

Over the weekend I synthed myself 2 Ulteris and 2 Mira-kimakis. I splurged for the 9* because these are basically the last weapons I'll be needing for these types.

I just recently got my Insei-sou up to level 21. I think it's safe to say that I'm really loving Dark Bullets. Now that I can handle Svalti (a Te-senba helps) I spend all of my solo time doing Sleeping Warriors S farming Nanoresin so that I might synth up some Gigushlines.

I'm also leveling up my Card Bullets. While the Crossbow is certainly a stronger weapon, I think that Cards have their place.

Here is what I like about them:

-Unlike the Crossbow the Cards actually have a halfway decent range.
-They begin with 2 attacks and go to 3 at lvl 11. But so do Crossbows... eventually(<-*cough*heavy emphasis*cough*)
-The element on these is exceptional. At 30 these will probably be my hardest hitting weapons.
-The added Accuracy on these is simply incredible, second only to Bows.

That being said, I still prefer to use my Crossbows in situations in which the enemy is safe to approach. But for taking out fliers, Olgohmon, Jarbas, Deljabens and their ilk these are now my weapons of choice.

Overall I am very happy with most of my weapons, although I'm kind of dissapointed by the damage on Twin Handguns and Mechguns.

Hotashi

Jan 16, 2007, 09:23 AM

Crossbow is a damage beast. Dualies gain like 2% ATP each level at 20-30. I dunno aboot Cards.

Dymalos

Jan 16, 2007, 10:09 AM

I'm well aware that Dual Handguns get that damage boost. But still even comparing Frozen Twin Lvl 30 to Yak Riga Lvl 30, The Crossbow wins out because even though they have about the same firing rate and the numbers are about the same, ultimately the Crossbow shoots 3 times compared to 2 on the Twins. I just don't understand why the 1 handed Crossbow is totally better than the the 2 handed Twin Handguns. (Note I use Evil Twins and the Cubo Dunga for this comparison, so both are 8*).

Itsuki

Jan 16, 2007, 01:36 PM

On 2007-01-16 06:23, Hotashi wrote:
Crossbow is a damage beast. Dualies gain like 2% ATP each level at 20-30. I dunno aboot Cards.

Actually, cards are pretty much the reigning supreme when it comes to damage as a GT as far as I know. Even outdamaging point blanking with shotguns in most situations.

SolomonGrundy

Jan 16, 2007, 02:15 PM

Actually, cards are pretty much the reigning supreme when it comes to damage as a GT as far as I know. Even outdamaging point blanking with shotguns in most situations.

And they should be better at delivering status too, right? SE3 vs SE2?

So to sum up - Cards are better than machine guns, shotguns, and crossbows at damage, range, and delviering status.

Can you say...rebalance? Do they at least look stupid?

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

thefixer

Jan 16, 2007, 03:10 PM

the balancing factor is the fact that you're playing as a guntecher
the damage is nice, but you do give some up to be able to use wands

Turambar

Jan 16, 2007, 03:35 PM

Sorry Solomon, but they look incredibly hawt.

Itsuki

Jan 16, 2007, 05:18 PM

On 2007-01-16 11:15, SolomonGrundy wrote:

Actually, cards are pretty much the reigning supreme when it comes to damage as a GT as far as I know. Even outdamaging point blanking with shotguns in most situations.

And they should be better at delivering status too, right? SE3 vs SE2?

So to sum up - Cards are better than machine guns, shotguns, and crossbows at damage, range, and delviering status.

Can you say...rebalance? Do they at least look stupid?

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Cards are SE2 aren't they? And crossbows are IMHO the reigning supreme for spreading status effects. SE3 with a good spread, say hello to infection on the whole room.

Both weapons have their advantages. Really, they do, its all a preference thing and situational thing.

Single target, small:
1) Cards
2) Dualies
3) Rifles/Bows

Multiple targets, small:
1) Crossbow
2) Shotguns
3) Dualies

Large targets:
1) SE4 Weapons
2) Cards
3) Melee Weapons

See, everything has a situation its good in. But you can say some blanket things. Like theres no situation where dualies are bad. Dualies are just... the most solid of the ranger weapons. They have Range, Mobility, and Damage. You can never really go wrong using dualies.

Cards are great when you only want a lot of damage on a single target. But fail when theres multiple targets. The delay also can make them somewhat akward and unreliable.

Crossbows have a pretty wide spread, so they're best when theres multiple targets. You can point blank them all you want, but when it comes down to it, you gotta remember you're a GT. You don't have much hp/def. So unless theres only a couple targets left, stay away. Switch to dualies or an SE4 weapon if you want to cherry pick targets.

SolomonGrundy

Jan 16, 2007, 05:57 PM

so itsuki...tell me how you feel about dual handguns - do you like them or not? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

yes you are correct - I misread. 3 bullets, SE 2 (whew!).

ok, so Crossbow will get some great status spread around, and also has some good ATP compared to shotguns.

Cards can throw *some* status, seek, and have great elemental alignment-ness (heh)

shotguns - 5 bullets, for the horde

dual handguns - staple weapon.

Gen2000

Jan 16, 2007, 07:01 PM

For DPS, it's either Xbows, Shotguns, or Twins.

Xbows are great because their versatile like the Shotgun in that you can do crowd damage/crowd SE spread (much better because of SE3, lv.21 Freeze and Infect are almost broken) or single target simply by standing a certain distance from an enemy but you can move more freely. 2x shots already rival damage of Rifle, point plank 3x shots outdamages everything in the RA's arsenal except maybe point blank Shotgun but the firerate of Xbows probably makes them even.

On a single target, as long as the enemy isn't so killer like a crowd of Jarbas where it be best to limit blind spots as much as possible Xbows are better. For Jarba, flying enemies or bosses (because Xbows biggest flaw is lack of first-person mode), or any enemy you would prefer to keep a longer distance away from while still deliever solid DPS then Twins are better choices.

It's true Cards outdamages Twins on paper with the atp and element bonuses but the whole "fly into the air before coming down" thing just lets Twins outdamage it in speed when you're actually fighting in a mission.

And oh wow, the Phantom Line + Phantom combo doesn't live up to the hype. I tried it out today the damage wasn't that much from me using random armor + a Burst. Only 50-80 damage increase compared to it....maybe I was expecting too much from it (150-200+) but after a test run with it I was disgusted dropping the 450k for the gun and another 300k for the armor. I sold it back for the same price before other RAs start to notice and stop caring about it (actually a few RA friends did when I mention them and lol'd at me for discovering how crappy the Phantom combo was).

So digusted that I didn't compare damage with the equal star Bow, maybe later.

[ This Message was edited by: Gen2000 on 2007-01-16 16:02 ]

Sitka

Jan 16, 2007, 07:27 PM

Interesting about the Phantom Line.

I've been going crazy trying to figure out how the hell I was going to get enough money to buy both as I've had no luck synthing the armour and nanoresins are expensive.

I've been trying to keep all four of my characters happy and am still trying to get some things like a card for my guntecher, some decent spells for my force, some decent melee weps for my hunter and still keep the primary character going. Everytime I get a bit of meseta collected, I spend it - so I'm perpetually broke.

So maybe I should just be happy with my Teroline and my Bursts for a while and forget about the Phantom Line stuff. Maybe I should look at that 4-slot, 360k armor instead.

Thanks for the heads up.

Gen2000

Jan 16, 2007, 07:56 PM

I made sure I was using it right too, I had both the Phantom Rifle and Phantom Line Armor equipped, ran a mission and compared the damage vs. Burst:

- With the Full Set
- With the Phantom Rifle only

There is an increase of damage when you using the full set but it's not mind blowing and considering you could get 2 Burst from NPCs for the average price of 1 Phantom in player shops you get more bang for your buck for Rifle damage ownage.

Dymalos

Jan 17, 2007, 12:39 AM

I'm going to lay out the Stats for you guys on the Phantom/Phantomline Set and compare it with the Ulteri so that we can know where things stand. One thing many of you don't know about set bonuses is that they apply a 25% boost to the Base Att and Acc of the weapon, meaning that your own ATP or Acc and any Grinding never enters into the equation.

Disclaimer:
This is purely a Debate for Guntechers, seeing as how a Fortegunner will use the Rifle regardless and use it well.

ATP and Acc from Male Cast Guntecher 70/10
Damage Bonus from Fire, Earth and Dark lvl 30

Phantom Set:
Base Atp: 533
Base Att: 541
Combined: 1074
w/Elemnt: 2113 (For Rifles: x1.60 and x1.23)
SetBonus: 2248 (Here is where I add 25% of 541)

Base Ata: 435
Base Acc: 188
Combined: 623
w/Penalty: 467 (For Rifles: x0.75)
SetBonus: 514 (Here is where I add 25% of 188)

Ulteri:
Base Atp: 533
Base Att: 595
Combined: 1123
w/Elemnt: 2335 (For Longbows: x1.60 and x1.30)

Base Ata: 435
Base Acc: 300
Combined: 735
w/Penalty: 529 (For Longbows: x0.72)

As you can see while this set bonus certainly does shake things up, it by no means leaves the Rifle the undisputed champion.

Rifles have a much quicker initial shot and a slightly faster rate of fire overall. But this set bonus makes you forgo the Body Slot which means no Mega / Rainbow.

Longbows still ignore Defense, which as we get into S2 missions is going to start being a more lucrative bonus. But the delay on the initial shot is admittedly a pain.

[ This Message was edited by: Dymalos on 2007-01-16 21:41 ]

EC_Subbie

Jan 17, 2007, 01:02 AM

On 2007-01-16 16:56, Gen2000 wrote:
I made sure I was using it right too, I had both the Phantom Rifle and Phantom Line Armor equipped, ran a mission and compared the damage vs. Burst:

- With the Full Set
- With the Phantom Rifle only

There is an increase of damage when you using the full set but it's not mind blowing and considering you could get 2 Burst from NPCs for the average price of 1 Phantom in player shops you get more bang for your buck for Rifle damage ownage.

No there definetly is a decent increase. I played w a fortegunner who had a burst, was 1 level higher than me, had 6 levels higher in rifle element (maxed out at 30), was lv10 fortegunner..and only then was he able to match my damage with his burst vs my phantom + phantomline. I only had lv24 bullets, lv 7 fortegunner and 1 level below him. If I was to max out my rifle bullets, max out my job level and hold an even level with him there would be a substantial increase. I played w a fG who had such maxed stats, and his shots were in the 500s, with criticals near 800.

[ This Message was edited by: EC_Subbie on 2007-01-16 22:06 ]