Stance on Transfers? Trading?

[Polenicus]

We all know how people feel about duping. Personally I think that, although on its own a relatively small evil, that it generally leads to greater evils. Like how pot leads to politics. Plus when done on a large scale like in the DC version, it renders rares essentially worthless.

I know some people think that giving away common rares to newbies at low levels is wrong, as it alters their game experience and encourages mooching. I know others feel instead that giving rares they no longer want or need to someone in need rather that selling or disposing of them is a better use, and makes the curve a little less steep for the new guys, allowing them to progress a little faster and have more fun, as well as feel less left out of the cool weapons.

Today, asked someone I knew online if they'd help me transfer some stuff between my characters. I tend to keep any stuff I find in games that I think my other characters might use. That rare gun might be useless for my HUmar, by it would suit my RAcast perfectly!

The person was practically offended. They said that they felt transfering stuff was something akin to cheating, and ruins the game and they refused to be part of it.

This attitude surprises me a little, especially since it's no big deal for me to simply hook up a second controller and do it offline. It also annoyed me a bit, since i personally think what I do with my own items that I found legitimately is my own business. i'm not hacking or duping or really even doing anything Sega frowns on.

But that's just me. so the question I put out to you is, how do YOU feel about transferring items? I'll split that into two categories, natch.

1. How do you feel about transferring items between players of similar level? i.e. Transferring a Flowen's Sword found by your Force to your Hunter, both of which are around the same level?

2. How do you feel about transferring items from a stronger player to a weaker one, say giving your low-level HUcast a DB's saber WELL before he would find them on his own?

Anyway, opinions?

[Rhete]

On 2002-11-20 00:51, Polenicus wrote:
it's no big deal for me to simply hook up a second controller and do it offline.


You should've just done that, doing it online is the way of the past and a good way to get stolen from. But anyways...




1. How do you feel about transferring items between players of similar level? i.e. Transferring a Flowen's Sword found by your Force to your Hunter, both of which are around the same level?


Absolutely nothing wrong with it at all




2. How do you feel about transferring items from a stronger player to a weaker one, say giving your low-level HUcast a DB's saber WELL before he would find them on his own?


I have no problems with this either, but if you're doing it to the point where the low level character becomes really overpowered, then you should level offline. Tonight I gave my new character a level 200 mag, and proceded to nearly 1 hit kill everything in normal mode. Obviously if I had gone online with the mag, then it wouldnt be fair to the people I was playing with, and they'd probably leave

[Oblivious]

On 2002-11-20 00:51, Polenicus wrote:
Today, asked someone I knew online if they'd help me transfer some stuff between my characters. I tend to keep any stuff I find in games that I think my other characters might use. That rare gun might be useless for my HUmar, by it would suit my RAcast perfectly!

The person was practically offended. They said that they felt transfering stuff was something akin to cheating, and ruins the game and they refused to be part of it.

This attitude surprises me a little, especially since it's no big deal for me to simply hook up a second controller and do it offline. It also annoyed me a bit, since i personally think what I do with my own items that I found legitimately is my own business. i'm not hacking or duping or really even doing anything Sega frowns on.

You know what, I think I may have played with this person also. A week ago, I was in a team with a Force who had Kama as their mag. This other person on the team suddenly says, "that mag isn't legit, forces can't raise those." The Force responds by saying that his HUmar raised it and he simply transferred the mag over. This other player (I'll call him "PC" for "paranoid about cheating") starts going off about how transferring is cheating because "it takes all the challenge out of the game." The force, myself, and the other person in the room disagreed, so PC says "fine, I'm leaving, I don't play with cheaters." We were all like... "oooookkkk..."

When I went back to the lobby, PC was there and apparently he had been trying to make his case to other players in the lobby about why transferring is cheating. I don't think anyone agreed with him, nor cared.




1. How do you feel about transferring items between players of similar level? i.e. Transferring a Flowen's Sword found by your Force to your Hunter, both of which are around the same level?

Nothing wrong with that at all. As long as you got the items legitimately, you can do whatever you want with this game you spent $50 on.



2. How do you feel about transferring items from a stronger player to a weaker one, say giving your low-level HUcast a DB's saber WELL before he would find them on his own?


See my response to #1. Although it does take away some of the challenge for your weaker character, I believe you're free to do whatever you want with your legitimately found rares. I'll agree with the other poster here however, that if you're level 5 character is suddenly super-powerful, you should level up offline, otherwise you'll be way too advanced compared to other players of that level.

[CrashCat]

I don't mind transferring stuff to your other characters, just try not to make it so overpowering that you end up sucking all the exp when you play with that newly decked-out low level guy. Or just tag everything once so the rest can finish 'em off... although if you're one-shotting them that's a little hard :{

[SaitoH]

That's the "legit" mentality. The game facilitates and encourages trading ... common rares sell for nothing to encourage sharing them. Yet some people see this as cheating ... It's lucdicrous.

I have no problems with stacking a character,as long as you are fair to the people you are playing with. After normal difficulty it doesn't matter much anyway.

This game is about sharing and having fun. That's why it has such a good sense of community.

^w^

[Scan_Man]

It is not cheating, but transfering items can be viewed as cheap. What I mean is transfering 4 addslots, a 181 power mag, 4 god powers and a few hunter rares to a level 1 character can be really cheap.

I made a hunewearl a few weeks ago and joined a normal EP2 game. After a while a level 3 hucaseal joined, and she was using rares that normally a level 60, 80, or 90 hunter would be using. She was killing everything without letting teammates get a hit off enemies. It sucked because I was level 12 hunewearl with a freaking brand.

So if you going to transfer high power stuff, do not use it in team games. Just try to be fair to your teammates.

[TeamPhalanx]

No, it is not the "legit mentality," and I say that as a legit.

Most likely, that player who got upset at the idea of transferring had a cheat character. The other possibility is that the player was hardcore, but I doubt that.

The problem lies in that a lot of people tend to separate the characters - One thing I've heard a lot of during the DC day is that a person, while they cheat, has a "legit character." That always got to me, as there's no such thing. It all comes down to the player. You, the player, either play legit, or you don't. Same mentality here: those that oppose transfers are separating the character from the player.

Bottom line is that if you, as the player, earned an item(s), you have the right to distribute it amongst your characters. It'd be stupid not to, wouldn't it?

Going back to what Scan said, do try to be polite and don't hog the exp. Online, when I join anything other than an ultimate level team, I never use my best (%) weapons, since it would mean a quick kill.

[Kasera]

Rule 1: If I found it, I'm damn sure going to use it whatever way I want, even if it's not with the character I found it with.

[SaitoH]

Hardcore, legit ... same thing. Maybe you are a nice "legit", they do exsist, but my experience on the DC has shown me that a lot of "legit" players think they are better then others. Why do you need a silly title to say how you play?

For that matter I'm as "legit" as anyone ...

Whoa! serious deja vous here ...

HAH!

^w^

[Jae]

I think Scan_Man said it best. Transferring is ok, but if you want to use high level weapons and mags in low level team games, be considerate and don't do it in team games. It just ruins the experience for the other players.

Otherwise, I think transferring is ok. I already have a few decent items set aside for my FO and RA when I decide to play them. But that also depends if I'm playing a team game or not. If I'm playing on a team and I find stuff that my HU can't use, I'll just give it away to someone who can. If I'm solo, any unusables go to my other chars.

[TeamPhalanx]

Um... no. There's a HUGE difference between legits and hardcore players - which only goes to show your ignorance in the matter.

Hardcore players do not transfer, use only items they find (or from other hardcore players) and, most importantly, if they die even once, they delete their character and start all over again.

[MaJin]

Damn, u make it sound like making a hardcore char in DiabloII and if that char die its gone for good.

[SaitoH]

Oh! Excuse me Mr "the last legit"

*rolls eyes*

^w^

[BIO-SLASH]

I have to say, I'm a low level and if I was to have something passed down to me from somebody to make my game a little more interesting I'd jump at the chance. After I was done with it I'd either pass it along to my next char or onto someone else to make their game a little more interesting.

I don't think this is a problem, and certainly is "legit". It just makes the more annoying levels (1-20) go by a little smoother and a bit more fun. Wouldn't you have rather played with a DB saber than a brand?

[Khaotika]

On 2002-11-20 07:40, Kasera wrote:
Rule 1: If I found it, I'm damn sure going to use it whatever way I want, even if it's not with the character I found it with.



Exactly. =0

*clutches Sting Tip he found with RAmar*

NO ONE STEALS MY POINTY LOLLY!!!

-Khaotika!

"*peppers the area with Rafoie and runs off*"

[merlin]

LOL..

Not THIS shit again!!

A true "legit"....for those that are all sensitive about this crap....is a player who allows his character to ONLY use items, units, weapons, protective gear, and meseta that that character finds HIMSELF.

NO trading between his other characters AT ALL. No borrowing meseta or mates and fluids from others online either. There aren't many true legits out there, believe me. It's WAY hard to do. I respect those that are.

HARDCORE is different. Sort of a grassroots fringe Quake/Doom/Unreal thingie. Make a character. When he dies.....yer out. Scrap him and start anew. Heavy honor system of course. No bullshitting about how you haven't died when you did.

In the end, legitness doesn't guarantee you a ticket into heaven when you die. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Cheech]

Er... I owned Ruins online with my Racaseal at level 1. She was using a Wals and Crush Bullet. Heh. I don't find anything wrong with it.

[SnAPPUrU-nyan-ko]

I love twinking :3 Give my darn level 1 character a level 200 MAG, 4 slot frame, god/ability, and see how long it takes to level to 100 :3

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SnAPPUrU-nyan-ko on 2002-11-20 12:10 ]</font>

[merlin]

I'm with Snapp all the way.

She knows how much I loved my shiny spread needles. My new HUmar is kicking butt because of the nice things that my RAcast found ahead of time!!

Merlin's got all the high level techs sittin' in his bank just all lined up and waitin'.......

[Polenicus]

Interesting results.

It appears (With one or two exceptions) that trading items amongst your own characters is NOT considered cheating, or making you any less 'legit'. I've noted the voices that claim otherwise, and I don't agree. Here, lets see if I can scrape together a definition of 'legit' that the majority will agree on (I know not everyone will agree, but tough. That's life. Go find a meaningful definition of 'Synergy' so we know what all those MBA's are talking about, THEN come hassel me!)

Legit: A player who does not use or profit from the use of cheat devices, codes or tricks. All items they use are found naturally in the course of the game by themselves or someone else and are not artificially generated, as in by 'duping', TO THE BEST OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE. They may or may not conduct in equitable trade with other players, receive or give 'charity' items or exchange items they found or traded for amongst their own characters.

Orthodox Legit: A more stringent and restrictive variant of legit, this player does not beleive in charity, either giving or receiving, redistributing items among their characters or charing supplies with teammates. Each character is considered 'on their own', to succeed or fail on their own merits. All other rules of lgit players apply.

Hardcore: Much like the Orthodox Legit, but with the added caveat that if their character dies in game, at any point, the character is immediately wiped and started fresh. Revives are not allowed. Scape dolls may or may not be allowed depending on the player. All other restrictions of Orthodox Legits are followed.

I'm probably gonna take heat for that, but I personally think there needs to be that distinction. All these players are technically playing within the rules that Sega laid out, none of them go outside those boundaries. But each group has their own, internal rules they live by.

Personally I don't think calling people who trade items between their own chars 'cheaters' is fair or called for. They're playing by Sega's rules and their own, and just because they don't abide by YOUR rules doesn't give you the right to judge. You CAN refuse to play with them, and that should be okay... because they also need to respect that you have to follow your own set of rules.

The only other issue is respect, and that one seems fairly universal. It was mentioned that you shouldn't go into a Normal game with a pumped up level 1 char and slaughter everything before the other players get a chance to get a hit in. But that's just common courtesy. With Great Power comes Great Responsibility.

I apologize if I've ignited something hurtful with this thread.

[Maelkith]

challenge mode is hardcore enough for me. if you play that mode you know that the cards are stacked against you. i hope no hardcore gamers join my challenge team and bail if they lose a scape doll to delete thier character. and i hope they are not cowering in a corner so they dont die. some may have the skill to pull it off, but most are going to play extra safe. if my hucast is getting a beat down, they better be out there getting thier fair share.

why would someone make such a choice. the game is supposed to be fun. to not transfer items is a waste of resources. this kind of holier than thou legit bull shit makes me want to stay offline. malicious code and item mods are bad, but item transfer restriction !?!?!? if you want to be really legit and get no help- rip out your modem and break contoller two. fill your other three controller ports with caulk. and if you die step on your memory card so you have to buy a new one.

[SaitoH]

I have one HUGE gripe with "legit" players ... and it's the word itself.

le·git
adj. Slang
Legitimate

le·git·i·mate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l-jt-mt)
adj.
1)Being in compliance with the law; lawful: a legitimate business.
2)Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards: legitimate advertising practices.
3)Based on logical reasoning; reasonable: a legitimate solution to the problem.
4)Authentic; genuine: a legitimate complaint.

The very definition of the word "legit" is to play honestly and in accordance with rules. I don't cheat (I can't even if I wanted to) and EVERYONE of my friends that I play with, are "legit". Yet some people feel the need to segregate themselves, by saying "they" are playing honestly and I am not. Worse yet, they bitch at people in games for not following their rules.

This is a game. I play, simply because it's fun. You can play however you like, but DO NOT mess with my fun (malicious hacks) and DO NOT suggest that you are a more honest player, because you are "legit". It's bullshit, plain and simple.

Maybe instead of "legit" you should call yourself "personwhowantstoplaywithoutanyhelp". I would find that acceptable and even acknowledge it.

^w^

Ps. I did know about hardcore. A bunch of people were doing that last summer, but, according to their own rules, they could only play with other hardcore characters. I thought it was a cool idea.

[RedFox]

trading weapons from one char to another... wasn't that ST's vision of the game when it was first concieved? players each helping each other out... trading items/ weapons which will benefit both traders etc stuff like that??

i DO however have respect for hardcore and legit players... i bet its not easy going aboutit either way but (as already mentioned), its your game! do what the hell you like with it!! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ThresholdRPG]

What a moron. Of course transferring and trading are *NOT* cheating.

The % chance to find rares is still WAAYYYYYYYY too low. The game still requires WAY too much tedious re-doing of levels to find things. And there is still far too much finding the same rare over and over and over again (I have about 40 WALS, VISKs, and JUSTYs).

Once the cheat devices are available, tons of people will use them just like on the DC and for the same reason:

SEGA still thinks tedium = good game design. It doesn't. It makes legit players grudgingly go bad.

[Rhete]

On 2002-11-20 08:58, TeamPhalanx wrote:
Hardcore players do not transfer, use only items they find (or from other hardcore players) and, most importantly, if they die even once, they delete their character and start all over again.


Hardcore was a good idea until challenge mode showed up =P

[StryderPSO]

i dont think that it is cheating because you are not exploiting any bugs and is completely legit in the PSO world...but i do think you maybe cheating your self and every one read the sig's large message...

[DirewolfX]

Polenicus: Hmm... I like your definition of Legit/Orthodox Legit/Hardcore. You may also want to separate Hardcore into Hardcore and Orthodox Hardcore... after all, if Hardcore originates from Diablo II, like I think it does, then trading/etc. between Hardcore characters might be acceptable... the only issue was death. Then again, I suppose it's up to the player to decide.

Anyway, I think "Legit" just means no cheats/hacks/etc. And personally (although it's slightly off the topic), I think that people paid $50 for the game, they should feel free to play however they want (cheating or not) as long as they don't ruin the online experience for others... which pretty much means keeping offline or playing only with other cheaters.

[Blue-Hawk]

i transfer stuff all the time. and its better now since the gc can do it offline, and im stuck that way. online was a pain in the arse on the dc. you always ran the risk of thieves and/or disconnects therefore losing your stuff. i onlly transfer what i think the character can and will use. or if one character finds an enemy part and someone else still has the quest open. henceforth my decapitated monkey head on a stick. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
transferring is not cheating in the least. its just getting something to one id that that same id might not be able to find.

[MalambisBZ]

1. If you find an item, you can do whatever you want to it. Transferring is DEFINITELY not cheating. People can complain about transfering items, I don't care.. but if they call it cheating, then they are very wrong.

2. Unless you gave him a high level mag so he could use it, it's just like #1. And even if you give him a high powered mag, it's not cheating and it's not really wrong either. Unless of course they are hogging all the exp or it causes them to think they are better than others and insult them.

I agree with your definitions of legit, Polenicus.

In my opinion cheating is classified as, Exploiting bugs or glitches, or using external programs/devices to modify the game.

[TeamPhalanx]

On 2002-11-20 17:29, ThresholdRPG wrote:
... It makes legit players grudgingly go bad.


If a legit turns cheater because of the gameplay... *shakes head* I've had items stolen, lost to FSOD, lost a character, etc. and I'm still legit. I'm legit because I believe cheating to be the cowardly, dishonorable, dishonest, and just right pathetic thing to do as a gamer. I suspect that those who turned to cheating because of the gameplay had less solid foundations for being legit. In most cases, they were never legit in the first place, but only called themselves legit.

On the trading issue:

If you traded in the DC versions, you're not legit. Simply because of the fact hat 90% + of the rares in that game were made or duplicated by cheat devices.

On the GC it's a different story, since 90%+ of the rares in the game were obtained legitimately.

[SaitoH]

*hands team phalanx a cookie*

^w^/o

[SirDonovanIII]

Trading items or transferring items between characters is definately a legitimate and acceptable action within PSO. Otherwise Sonic Team would not have made the provision of the Trade Window nor would allow you do drop items. These actions can be performed within the game using the normal controls and functions provided. No modification or cheat codes are nescessary to do so.
On the other hand, when playing with others, the need to exhibit caution an courtesy shold be excercised as to what item you are using. Using powerful items on low level charactors, while playing with other low level characters, doen chepen they playing experiance and makes things unbalanced. Just be mindfull of who and what level characters you are playing with and use appropriate items. Meaning no Level 200 mags and a high % dark Imperial Pick in normal Ruins. Just use common sense.

[Alena Zouryx]

I trust transferring online so little now that I simply go into offline multiplayer mode if I'm wanting to transfer amongst my characters. Works pretty well, if I do say so myself! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif