Human as an online race

[SolomonGrundy]

I'm having a hard time understanding how to choose a human over the other races in PSU, for almost every class, it seems like there is a better choice?

In PSO, HUmars, and RAmars made sense (because all non-CASTs could use resta, anti, at the very least, split slimes with Rabarta)

But in PSU, humans have the second highest TAP/MST, and the well rounded-ness hurts you unless you are playing a guntecker, or Wartecher - and guntecher is really more suited to CAST, or Newman (insert your argument for which you like better here...)

So...Is that it? Is Wartecher the only human class that makes sense? Or am I being a biased stat-whore...

[Knightsword]

Crea weapon use and they get bonuses for some of the expert classes, the hybred ones I believe

[Ronzeru]

Every single hybrid job to be honest. I'm a human Figunner. And it's not that it hurts you any other way you go. It's that you don't excel completely in one spot. The benefit to that, is that you don't fail in any spot either. It's the job without super strengths, but at that price, it's the only job that lacks a weakness.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2006-12-15 18:43, Ronzeru wrote:
Every single hybrid job to be honest. I'm a human Figunner.


ok, so - you don't feel eclipsed by CAST Figunners? I would think the HP/ATA/ATP/DFP difference would be offputting.

Not that EVP isn't good, but EVP blocks stop PA skill animations...

[VanHalen]

cause they look good thats another reason to pick them and their roundness at any job you cant be put at a disadvantage and the thing about being "eclipsed" by other races im a newman hunter and it never bothers me not once

also if you like a certain race just because one race has better stats in that position doesnt mean that you should jump to it cause of that(though it is a good reason lol) every race and class combination in this game is workable and you wont have many disadvantages with unit slots also



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VanHalen on 2006-12-15 21:43 ]</font>

[CelestialBlade]

I've never cared for elitist, cookie-cutter character builds in any game I've played. I personally think true skill comes from being able to take absolutely any combination of anything and making it work.

It'd probably be "optimal" for my main character to be a Beast, but I've got him as a Human because of the backstory I made for him a long time ago. I make him work because I learn how to *play* the game, not just grind my stats up and button-mash.

[VanHalen]

On 2006-12-15 21:44, Typheros wrote:
I've never cared for elitist, cookie-cutter character builds in any game I've played. I personally think true skill comes from being able to take absolutely any combination of anything and making it work.

It'd probably be "optimal" for my main character to be a Beast, but I've got him as a Human because of the backstory I made for him a long time ago. I make him work because I learn how to *play* the game, not just grind my stats up and button-mash.



i couldnt say it better myself also my characters race is part of his backstory too hes suppose to be a fortefighter

[Bleemo]

Reasons to go Human:

1) Gets a small boost from most hybrid classes.

2) Roleplaying-value.


Reasons not to go Human:

1) Their stats suck.(Unfortunately, "well balanced" stats doesn't work very well in this game.)

2) They have no advantages.

3) Replica weapons suck.

4) They never have any luck.

5) Etc.


Ultimately, just play to have fun. But, if you're looking to maximize your performance like I enjoy doing, Humans wouldn't be the route to go.

[Vorpal]

Humans can switch between all the expert classes and do well, or best, unlike other classes. Also they have crea weapons, and bonus stats from hybrid expert classes. If you really care for those extra stats, then it would be best to use another class {Except maybe Wartecher}.

[Dre_o]

Why play human?

Because I can.

[TyrIstKrieg]

I've planned to go WarTecher since I started. z0mFg, I'm a smart one.

[drizzle]

looks > * http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[etlitch]

Reasons to go human = You won't get as raped by TECHs as beast or cast.

I suppose there's alot of humans on the jp servers since they don't really seem to care as much about stats and stuff as we do. Anyone who knows if casts are rare on the JP server?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: etlitch on 2006-12-16 03:46 ]</font>

[Sexy_Raine]

As far as overall usefullness in expert classes, here's how I rank the races:

Top-tier: Cast
Mid-tier:Beast
Low-Tier: Human/Newman

Although I feel casts are gifted to be able to choose most ex classes and stats that are above-average for them, doesn't mean humans shouldn't be used at all ,seriously. Nova, my female human servant is going to be a Fortegunner. Would a cast be much better? Yes. Do I care? No



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2006-12-16 04:58 ]</font>

[Gamemako]

Humans make good Wartechers, but everyone can be an effective wartecher. Newmans make good Fortetechers; Beasts make good Fortefighters. Everything else is CAST. Get over it and be what you want to.

[Dhylec]

Some are into stats & numbers, some into styles & looks, others is all about fun. To sum it up, it's a matter of preferences.
I think that's what makes it more diverse. It's a good thing. ;]

[Mystil]

On 2006-12-15 21:57, Bleemo wrote:
Reasons to go Human:

1) Gets a small boost from most hybrid classes.

2) Roleplaying-value.


Reasons not to go Human:

1) Their stats suck.(Unfortunately, "well balanced" stats doesn't work very well in this game.)

2) They have no advantages.

3) Replica weapons suck.

4) They never have any luck.

5) Etc.




Reasons
1.) True
2.) I guess

Reasons not to go human
1.) False
2.) There is a perfect race in this game?
3.) True
4.) Luck is overrated.

[Bleemo]

On 2006-12-16 13:00, Mystil wrote:
Reasons
1.) True
2.) I guess

Reasons not to go human
1.) False
2.) There is a perfect race in this game?
3.) True
4.) Luck is overrated.


If you're going for statistics, humans just don't work. It's far better to have a focused race rather than a hybrid. This is really said for all classes. Wartecher would probably be the only class that would benefit decently from being human.

By "advantages" I meant that they have nothing they excel at. They have no high ATP, no high ATA, no high TP, no Nanoblast, no SUV, nothing. It's kind of boring, to me at least.

Oh, and what in the world are you smoking? Luck is not overrated.

[SolomonGrundy]

On 2006-12-16 13:00, Mystil wrote:
Reasons not to go human
1.) False
2.) There is a perfect race in this game?
3.) True
4.) Luck is overrated.



respectfully disagree on that last point - Luck is so not overrated, especially for grinding. I'm basically scared to grind any weapon that I use with regularity, unless it's a luck 2 day, and I have +8 or better grinders.

back on topic, let's face it, there are some race combos that do not work very well. Female beast fortegunner comes to mind. Since the classes adjust things by %, even a large % of a small number, is still a pretty small number...


As far as Wartecher goes? I would not want to see the result of a male CAST wartecher...what a waste of potential!

[Aobikari]

Humans are great for all hybrid classes. Most of their bonuses are for those classes, CAST only get bonuses for being only forteGunners and nothing else ( I tested it since I have Hunter, Force, and Ranger to lvl 10 ). So Humans are not weak at all its just easy to overlook what they are good for. A good example would be the Human protrancer i saw the other day with a crea double, he was hitting with criticals very often.

[VanHalen]

On 2006-12-16 13:54, Bleemo wrote:

On 2006-12-16 13:00, Mystil wrote:
Reasons
1.) True
2.) I guess

Reasons not to go human
1.) False
2.) There is a perfect race in this game?
3.) True
4.) Luck is overrated.


If you're going for statistics, humans just don't work. It's far better to have a focused race rather than a hybrid. This is really said for all classes. Wartecher would probably be the only class that would benefit decently from being human.

By "advantages" I meant that they have nothing they excel at. They have no high ATP, no high ATA, no high TP, no Nanoblast, no SUV, nothing. It's kind of boring, to me at least.

Oh, and what in the world are you smoking? Luck is not overrated.



not everything in the world is statistics ya'know

[Bleemo]

On 2006-12-16 15:11, VanHalen wrote:

not everything in the world is statistics ya'know


Ugh, this is obvious. TOO obvious.

[Mystil]

On 2006-12-16 13:54, Bleemo wrote:

Oh, and what in the world are you smoking? Luck is not overrated.


I forgot.

Wait.

I don't smoke.

And luck is overrated and silly reason to not choose any race. I guess all human males need to quit and go newman female?

I'm happy with my(apparently) crappy stats. There should only be beasts and newmans in PSU right?

[CelestialBlade]

Some people just plain enjoy a challenge, too. Just seeing what combinations of race and class they can make work. To me, that sounds more fun than just going with the "lol ultimate combo" for whatever class.

But if you are going pure stats, I'm not sure the race bonuses Humans pick up for hybrid classes really can outweigh the effectiveness of, say, a Beast or Cast Fighgunner. Sure you pick up 3.5-5% bonuses on everything, but....at higher levels, I don't think that'll seem like much.

[Gamemako]

The race/class bonus isn't enough to make up for humans' stat deficits. They are 3rd in all combat stats and 2nd in all tech stats. That makes them effective casters, except that there are only 3 tech classes, with fortetecher dominated by newmans and guntechers better suited to newmans or CASTs. That leaves wartecher as the only truly effective position for humans.

Oh yes, and protransers can't use double sabers.

Solomon, A CAST wartecher is actually arguably the best soloing class in the game because he has good ATP and the ATA to make up for the Wartecher's nice big penalty. Along with megistar, resta, and debuffs, he's pretty hard to argue with in a fight.

[-Shimarisu-]

Guntecher is NOT more suited to newmen. Humans clearly surpass them - ATA is ENOUGH to hit in S rank, crazy TP is not needed for this class.

You can also argue the position that with not much worse TP than newmans, and base TP being a low percent anyway of total TP with a wand, that humans make a good, more robust Fortetecher than newmen, and the fact their damage is a TINY bit lower is not too detrimental with the bonus in HP, defence and ATP (for your bows) that you'd get.

For hunter though, yeah. Eclipsed by beasts and casts. The difference is just too much.

For ranger, eclipsed by casts, but still makes a decent guntecher. Better than a newman does, IMO.

[Lit]

I choose race only based on looks...
I really liked how beasts girl looked like so I picked 1 regardless of stats, and its a new race so thats another reason, then being FO/beast that was fun.

Regardless what you choose Human or not, you choose race depending on what weapons you wanna use, and then whatever that tickles your fancy heh, /love

[Alisha]

i dunno for hunters i think casts and humans are pretty close. the difference in atp is close as opposed to cast vs beast. i also think cast ata is largely wasted on hunters especially when zodial comes out. because of zodial beast could be potentially great wartechers in my opinion. i also like the fact that humans have the second highest evp wich is a stat i value.

[Gamemako]

Ummm... fortetecher is a bad one to argue. A newman wartecher does almost as much tech damage as a human fortetecher (about 95% at the same tech levels). A newman has about a 30% advantage in TP for fortetecher after the class/race bonus. Newmans also have better EVP than humans, which is helped by the 6% class/race bonus. Then MST. And that better HP and DFP? Newmans get the 2.3% and 2.0% bonuses, respectively, which puts them even closer... but it doesn't really matter, because with 78% and 60% modifiers as-is, the difference between newman and human in terms of HP and DFP as fortetechers is very, very small.

We can go back and forth about guntecher for ages, but the only way to prove it is to make one of each and compare. I'm not in the business; my guntecher will be a CAST.

[Maxurion]

Honestly, I use humans for everything except my fortecher. (He's newman, cuz i like seeing them go *BOOM* http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif)

[Shiro_Ryuu]

On 2006-12-15 18:48, SolomonGrundy wrote:

On 2006-12-15 18:43, Ronzeru wrote:
Every single hybrid job to be honest. I'm a human Figunner.


ok, so - you don't feel eclipsed by CAST Figunners? I would think the HP/ATA/ATP/DFP difference would be offputting.

Not that EVP isn't good, but EVP blocks stop PA skill animations...



what difference? I don't think there's too much of a difference, and EVP has helped me alot, like blocking Goushins, those light things in Neu relics, Svaltus big sword swings, etc while the CASTs get smacked, and we have better MST so we can take magic attacks better. The only major difference is that CASTs have SUVs.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2006-12-17 05:58 ]</font>

[Alisha]

its awesome when you evade svaltus tornado break move. i hate that move with a passion plus they are more likely to use it when you attack them in the back....

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-12-17 05:33, Gamemako wrote:
Ummm... fortetecher is a bad one to argue. A newman wartecher does almost as much tech damage as a human fortetecher (about 95% at the same tech levels). A newman has about a 30% advantage in TP for fortetecher after the class/race bonus. Newmans also have better EVP than humans, which is helped by the 6% class/race bonus. Then MST. And that better HP and DFP? Newmans get the 2.3% and 2.0% bonuses, respectively, which puts them even closer... but it doesn't really matter, because with 78% and 60% modifiers as-is, the difference between newman and human in terms of HP and DFP as fortetechers is very, very small.

We can go back and forth about guntecher for ages, but the only way to prove it is to make one of each and compare. I'm not in the business; my guntecher will be a CAST.



Human Female Fortetecher - TP of 622 at lvl 50, job lvl 1. At 60, job lvl 10 (current cap), 887.

Newman Female Fortetecher - TP of 768 at lvl 50, job lvl 1. At 60, job lvl 10 (current cap), 1096.

Human Female Wartecher - TP of 374 at lvl 50, job lvl 1. At 60, job lvl 10 (current cap), 596.

Newman Female Wartecher - TP of 448 at lvl 50, job lvl 1. At 60, job lvl 10 (current cap), 715.

Buh? Your claims are not substantiated by real stats.

OK, so human has a bit under 9/11s the BASE TP of newman. BUT, that barely matters, add on a good wand and that 95% figure now belongs to human female, doing 95% of newman. The newman wartecher will also be doing 95% that of human fortetecher AT LEVEL 20 TECHS, but you forget the human will have level 30. It's CLEARLY not a horrible choice, and definitely has more plus points going for it than a human fortefighter, which is 3rd place in the ATP field and is lower in ALL the vital stats needed for the job than cast and beast. A human fortetecher though is a decent option, more HP, more defence, BARELY lower EVP, can fight closer to the action than newman. IMO of all the forte classes, techer is the BEST for human. Not hunter, not ranger, they benefit more in the tech field.

Really, look at the raw stats, add up the numbers and you'll see what I mean. Put a grinded B rank wand on both and there's barely any difference in damage.

The argument for human guntechers?

The difference in ATA is low. The difference in ATP is over twice that difference. The TP is not essential, and there's barely a difference anyway. You don't need higher evade, you're a ranger. As long as you can hit things in S areas, you're gold.

I can hit things in S areas. So a newman's ATA bonus is not needed. The main bonus you get from it is the ability to equip better guns SLIGHTLY earlier. With the ATA bonuses gained from job levels, that "slightly earlier" is barely going to be noticable.

IMO here, cast>human>newman, but cast has its work cut out to make it work. I'm talking grinding wands and the expense involved with that. Humans will always give a better resta, and it's up to you whether that's a problem. Some might argue human is as good as cast in this field.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-12-17 06:33 ]</font>

[Alisha]

how do you feel about beast wartecher shim? i think you played one on jp if i remember correctly.

[Gamemako]

On 2006-12-17 06:25, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2006-12-17 05:33, Gamemako wrote:
Ummm... fortetecher is a bad one to argue. A newman wartecher does almost as much tech damage as a human fortetecher (about 95% at the same tech levels). A newman has about a 30% advantage in TP for fortetecher after the class/race bonus. Newmans also have better EVP than humans, which is helped by the 6% class/race bonus. Then MST. And that better HP and DFP? Newmans get the 2.3% and 2.0% bonuses, respectively, which puts them even closer... but it doesn't really matter, because with 78% and 60% modifiers as-is, the difference between newman and human in terms of HP and DFP as fortetechers is very, very small.

We can go back and forth about guntecher for ages, but the only way to prove it is to make one of each and compare. I'm not in the business; my guntecher will be a CAST.



Human Female Fortetecher - TP of 622 at lvl 50, job lvl 1. At 60, job lvl 10 (current cap), 887.

Newman Female Fortetecher - TP of 768 at lvl 50, job lvl 1. At 60, job lvl 10 (current cap), 1096.

Human Female Wartecher - TP of 374 at lvl 50, job lvl 1. At 60, job lvl 10 (current cap), 596.

Newman Female Wartecher - TP of 448 at lvl 50, job lvl 1. At 60, job lvl 10 (current cap), 715.

Buh? Your claims are not substantiated by real stats.

OK, so human has a bit under 9/11s the BASE TP of newman. BUT, that barely matters, add on a good wand and that 95% figure now belongs to human female, doing 95% of newman. The newman wartecher will also be doing 95% that of human fortetecher AT LEVEL 20 TECHS, but you forget the human will have level 30. It's CLEARLY not a horrible choice, and definitely has more plus points going for it than a human fortefighter, which is 3rd place in the ATP field and is lower in ALL the vital stats needed for the job than cast and beast. A human fortetecher though is a decent option, more HP, more defence, BARELY lower EVP, can fight closer to the action than newman. IMO of all the forte classes, techer is the BEST for human. Not hunter, not ranger, they benefit more in the tech field.

Really, look at the raw stats, add up the numbers and you'll see what I mean. Put a grinded B rank wand on both and there's barely any difference in damage.

The argument for human guntechers?

The difference in ATA is low. The difference in ATP is over twice that difference. The TP is not essential, and there's barely a difference anyway. You don't need higher evade, you're a ranger. As long as you can hit things in S areas, you're gold.

I can hit things in S areas. So a newman's ATA bonus is not needed. The main bonus you get from it is the ability to equip better guns SLIGHTLY earlier. With the ATA bonuses gained from job levels, that "slightly earlier" is barely going to be noticable.

IMO here, cast>human>newman, but cast has its work cut out to make it work. I'm talking grinding wands and the expense involved with that. Humans will always give a better resta, and it's up to you whether that's a problem. Some might argue human is as good as cast in this field.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-12-17 06:33 ]</font>


A 24% increase in TP. So sue me. I estimated based on personal experience. Want to know where you can shove that other six percent?

A level 60 human guntecher 10 has 280 TP. A grinded W'gacros can have over 500 TP. I'd have to check the TP req for the W'gacros (I know W'gacan is something like 180), but it's safe to say that a guntecher's TP is based entirely on his wand. Of course, unless something has changed since offline mode, megistar isn't based on TP. Nor is zalure. And as a guntecher you have the best offhand weaponry in the game. Basically, the only advantage a human has over a CAST is his AMAZING ability to heal for... 400 HP at best? When he's level 60 and his teammates are pushing 2000 HP? Gee, 200 PP from his 500 PP wand just to heal once. Not good as a primarily healer, needless to say. And a newman guntecher only has 335 base TP. So he can use A-ranks a few levels early. Not a whole lot of anything to care about.

Also, as a human go get a shotgun and see what you hit in S-rank missions. Hell, my CAST ranger has a bitch of a time hitting things with that weapon. You have a horrid history of underrating the role of ATA. But you wouldn't even know what ATA means, with your beast wartecher and all.

[-Shimarisu-]

With a +4 W'gacan, lvl 53 human, lvl 3 guntecher, I ALREADY heal for 350, so I'm sure with a W'gacross and more job levels I'll be healing for more than 400.

A fully grinded W'gacros gives 576 bonus TP. Add 280=856. My current TP is, uh, 601 with W'gacan.

Then later on we can use A ranks, and it just gets better.

I don't use shotgun. At all. Prefer to get in close and spread out bullets with a crossbow.

Horrid history of underrating the role of ATA.... lmao. If something hits, it hits.

You forgot about units too.

[Gamemako]

On 2006-12-17 07:50, -Shimarisu- wrote:

You forgot about units too.




Granted.

800 total TP heals 550. FYI. I can screenshot to prove it as well. You might pull off 600 heals with a +10 W'gacros. Which is respectable, except that it cost you 700K in wands and grinders to make that one wand. If I were to spend that much, I could probably (estimate) reach 1000 heals.

A grinded W'gacros has more TP than an ungrinded Lidra, you know.

[-Shimarisu-]

If you're talking optimal equips, ie. the best you'll EVER use, 700K is not a particularly bad price in the long term.

I'm waiting to see what A ranks grind to before I make any commitments. Right now my 350 is *OK*. To heal for a erspectable amount would be great. It'd shut a lot of whiners up, whiners that leave my party saying "Wah I can't wipe my own ass so I wanted a proper FO."

I'm thinking on the 8* kubara bow as another optimal, end-game equip. Once again, will need to see what it grinds to (but I consider that to be optimal equip bow wise for a beast wartecher at any rate. The ATA is CRAZY on it. SO good on buffed up fucking Vandas.)

[Gamemako]

On 2006-12-17 08:20, -Shimarisu- wrote:
If you're talking optimal equips, ie. the best you'll EVER use, 700K is not a particularly bad price in the long term.

I'm waiting to see what A ranks grind to before I make any commitments. Right now my 350 is *OK*. To heal for a erspectable amount would be great. It'd shut a lot of whiners up, whiners that leave my party saying "Wah I can't wipe my own ass so I wanted a proper FO."

I'm thinking on the 8* kubara bow as another optimal, end-game equip. Once again, will need to see what it grinds to (but I consider that to be optimal equip bow wise for a beast wartecher at any rate. The ATA is CRAZY on it. SO good on buffed up fucking Vandas.)



I THINK (I'm sure you have some resource to correct me on this) that the Lidra surpasses the +10 W'gacros at +4 grind. Obviously the W'gacros isn't endgame stuff, then.

And yeah, those Vanda Mehras are a pain in the fucking ass. But I hit them pretty well with my 4-star Rikalbari (need to upgrade; just too lazy) as a newman wartecher. Damage bites on the shield elites though. 160/hit on the others. I suppose you're best served with that Kubara because of its low ATA requirement. I can't even touch the A-rank one yet. Need one more level.

//EDIT: Lidra thing is word-of-mouth. I don't know for sure. Assumedly something from the perfect bible.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gamemako on 2006-12-17 08:32 ]</font>