PDA

View Full Version : leveling bullets



AeraLure
Dec 17, 2006, 01:55 PM
My assumption/understanding up until a couple days ago was that its a hit count per bullet level. I was rummaging around the JP Wiki and even saw a chart for bullets that I was 99% sure was displaying hit counts per bullet type (rifle, twin etc) needed to reach each next level. I cant find it now, which is a little frustrating, but I accepted that it worked that way since it made sense.

Except:

Been bored and soloing a lot. My friends all quit so I started playing my ranger and she's more or less leveled alone for the past week or two until I get her set and go out and find new people with whom to play. Unhappy they left, so been simply content to solo, work on her PM's B St and her bullets. I've been doing this on VoC C and have done 120 or so of them at around 10-20 a day until i get tired of that and then I just idle on forums or whatnot.

I chose Burning Shot and Frozen Shot on my rifles and use those on logical targets during the run. Noted nothing of interest really there since they get used almost equally, but Burning Shot more and sure, it has a higher level now. I chose Twin Freeze for my twins to use on Vandas for the mobility.

Twin Freeze shot up from level 14 to level 27 in around 60 runs. It may even be less, since I was in there for a while as a Force too plinking away with my handgun to raise Force level to 3. Anyway, I simply had to drop using Twin Freeze as it made no sense to continue and decided ok great, let's do that for Twin Plasma. At this time I also ground the as yet unground 6* twins I was using with Twin Freeze (since we finally got a 3 star luck day) and I had gained some levels and a job level as Fortegunner.

I run about 60 more runs and Twin Plasma goes from 11 to 17. Damage now being put out is the same or greater than when I started using Twin Freeze due to several variables of grinding and gaining levels and job levels. Its not quite as high maybe as it was when I stopped using Twin Freeze (since it was level 27 afterall), but its really close anyway to the average of what Twin Freeze was around levels 20-22 or so when it just shot up to 27. Obviously, average number of bullets fired is approximately the same. Yet Twin Plasma crawls.

Shim had mentioned in the Guntecher topic that it was damage done that affected bullet leveling. I was confused as to how this was combined with the number of shots of a bullet needed to level, since that seems obviously to also be part of it. Maybe damage done is a modifer to how many shots need to be fired? Sort of didnt make sense, but it surely also didnt simply seem to be number of shots.

Problem is I dont have accurate historical damage info to tell me what is going on here. I am going only on recollection. All I know is Twin Plasma damage is now approaching or is at what Twin Freeze used to be when it was level 21+ and was skyrocketing in levels and Twin Plasma is very much not skyrocketing.

My assumption:

Bullets, and by association Techs, level based on number of "shots", but are modified additionally by whether or not they are fired at opposed- or same- element targets, and get a bonus or a penalty to the leveling speed as a result.

This is in line as to what Shim said in the Guntecher! topic about bullet leveling speed being tied to damage done. Correct, I think, in a way, but the actual variable in play is could very well be element, and damage as a result goes up or down depending on that, and the speed leveling bonus is then seeming to be tied to damage when in actuality it is not.

Not easy to test since you need cross-element bullets of the same level, and then a few different weapons to raise or lower damages to get them similar to each other, and a set number of shots fired at opposed elemental targets and the same number at non-opposed. You could then compare the raise in % over the same number of bullets fired when damage is low vs when damage is high, when at opposed element targets vs not, etc.

Thoughts on this? I've all but convinced myself this is the way it works, but could just as easily be wrong. I simply dont have the data at the moment that would bring it beyond just what my experience is telling me.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AeraLure on 2006-12-17 11:43 ]</font>

Arislan
Dec 17, 2006, 02:23 PM
The perfect bible gives a certain number of "experience points" to level, and shows levels 1/6/11/16/21/26/30 in the chart. It doesn't explain precisely how to gain "experience points" however. It's certainly not kills with the weapon, and misses don't seem to do anything to raise it, so it's plausible that it's simply uses of the skill for an effect (no effect on a full HP resta, for example), or some calculation based on damage done.

AeraLure
Dec 17, 2006, 02:30 PM
Some variable based on damage surely makes sense. Wondering if it includes a same- and opposed- element target type within that, because it sure seems so to me, as I didnt seem to get the same rate of advancement on Twin Freeze and Twin Plasma when the damages (based sadly only on my recollection) were very close.

Can be tested though, if controlled properly by choosing lower ranked weapons when firing at opposed element targets and higher ranked weapons when firing at non-opposed, thereby the damages being nearly the same. You only then need a bullets of opposing elements at the same level and could fire approximately the same number of shots of each and compare % gain. Would say right away if % gain was then affected by element or not, I'd think. I just dont have the bullets at the moment that would allow me to test this. They're of different levels.

Thanks for that input. Confirms that there is an odd little piece they dont. I could be wrong and it could simply be damage or some other additional modifier too.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AeraLure on 2006-12-17 11:42 ]</font>

etlitch
Dec 17, 2006, 03:06 PM
It's not damage. Since my high-lvl chars are still slow-ass at lvling low lvled bullets.

Pandatron
Dec 18, 2006, 03:24 AM
Can't this same theory and applications tested here be applied to how Techs and Weapon Arts also lvl?

imfanboy
Dec 18, 2006, 04:55 AM
it might also have something to do with the level of the enemy you're shooting at - I know that whenever I need to level a bullet I go to C Parum Relics. My bow went from lv 19 Fire shot 60% to level 21 in only 4-5 runs - while the bow DOES level faster than the rifle, that is signficantly faster than it was gaining ranks in higher level missions.

Arislan
Dec 18, 2006, 08:22 AM
Actually, that would argue more for the damage/hit model than anything else. You're hitting more often in C, and for more damage. I'll test the pure hit model when I have a chance next, comparing it against the chart. See if it's not just hits, but I doubt it's that simple.

Shazbot
Dec 18, 2006, 09:22 AM
I'm gonna use this space to post various bits of info from the PSU Perfect Bible. Some may find it interesting.

First up: Bullet PA Experience
I couldn't find a clear explanation for what exactly constitutes a point of experience but my guess is that 1 shot = 1 point (although that doesn't quite explain how the Machinegun and the Damu-techs work). The book doesn't give the EXP needed for any of the bullet PAs purchased with PA Fragments.

Rifle Bullets
EXP till LV21: 39040

Shotgun Bullets
EXP till LV21: 34000

Long Bow
EXP till LV21: 9240 (Go bows!)

Grenade Launcher
EXP till LV21: 16680

Laser Cannon
EXP till LV21: 43680 (WTF!?)

Twin Handgun
EXP till LV21: 33640

Handgun
EXP till LV21: 26640

Crossbow
EXP till LV21: 30040

Card
EXP till LV21: 18240

Machinegun
EXP till LV21: 28240

etlitch
Dec 18, 2006, 09:25 AM
Confirmed that it's all rumours.

Lv11 earth handgun bullet-

shadow monsters A grade : 8hits / 1%
shadow monsters C grade : 8hits / 1%

earth monster A : 8hits / 1%
earth monster C : 8hits / 1%

lightning monster A : 8hits / 1%
lightning monster C : 8hits / 1%

Covers pretty much everything: Monsters on different levels, of neutral/opposite/same element and hitting them for different amounts of damage (because the higher lvl ones have more defence).
I got 7 hits / 1% exp every 3 times I got 8 hits / 1% exp, but that's only because the bullet requires less than 800 total hits to level up.

Simply enough: You get the same amount of bullet PA exp from all monsters. Just hitting them and dealing more than 1 damage is enough. It might seem slower on higher level monsters, but that's only because of that you sometimes miss and that you sometimes get fooled by your mind that you've dealt more hits than what you actually did because, y'know pressing a key to just shoot something gets boring and repetetive. Especially on monsters with more hp.

zimmk2vgc
Dec 18, 2006, 09:51 AM
the experience is definitely not as simple from 1 shot=1 exp. most likely the amount of shots per exp increases with level. i do not have an figures to go by though, this is just from experience.

Arislan
Dec 18, 2006, 09:52 AM
Laser cannons are high exp needed because they are penetrating. Take a laser cannon, line up a few Pannons, and fire a few times. You just got 15 hits. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

panzer_unit
Dec 18, 2006, 10:00 AM
After grinding all my available gun skills to 11+ in preparation for changing to Protranser I figured I'd just leave 'em be and let them level off of actual use. That plan went fine for quite a while, until Barada Banga hit lv20. Now I'm going into the PA list to check on my % improvement after every handful of fights... I wish I could just stop caring about it but come on its only one level. Taking its sweet time tho.

Itsuki
Dec 18, 2006, 12:59 PM
If thats total needed for 21, then those numbers repressent hits. (estimated at a little over 300 emptied rifles to get to 21, I'm actually tempted to call that number not enough, since it takes 150+ rifles for 18 -> 21 alone.)

If thats exp required for 20 -> 21, then it has to represent something else.

Shazbot
Dec 18, 2006, 01:26 PM
Tra-la-la. Next are the numbers for Techs EXP
(Evidently one of the mods thinks this belongs in the bullets topic so...)

Foie
EXP till LV21: 8280

Ra-techs
EXP till LV21: 16560

Dam-techs
EXP till LV21: 11870

Regrants
EXP till LV21: 6160

Gi-techs
EXP till LV21: 15920

Shifta and all the other buffs/debuffs (except Megistar perhaps)
EXP till LV21: 15780

Barta, Zonde, (Megid too probably)
EXP till LV21: 31840

Resta
EXP till LV21: 15330

Reverser
EXP till LV21: 2760

The imperfect bible doesn't list the numbers for Dizas, Retis, Megiverse, Megistar, and the Nos-techs.

etlitch
Dec 18, 2006, 02:04 PM
Nevermind actually. It's 1hit = 1 exp.

Considering that it takes around 770 hits for the handgun bullet to lvl from 11->12 and that the amount required to next level increases whole the time, it's no surprice that it takes so much to lvl up them to 21.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: etlitch on 2006-12-18 11:16 ]</font>

Itsuki
Dec 18, 2006, 02:46 PM
Nosu techs right now are being leveled by canceling. You burn PP real fast, but they can get a nosu tech to level 30 in a few hours. Sadly, that bug will probably be patched by the time the US gets the Nosu techs though.

FOnewearl-Lina
Dec 19, 2006, 09:50 AM
Happily, that bug will probably be patched by the time the US gets the Nosu techs though.

Fixed it for you http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

panzer_unit
Dec 19, 2006, 10:04 AM
Oh hey... looks like Grenade skills aren't that bad to level. Pretty low XP counts, and it's a multi-hit weapon.

Kevino
Dec 19, 2006, 10:11 AM
nice