Are things starting to get non-hunter friendly?

[SolomonGrundy]

Aside: Kognad's cannot be burned, they can only be virused. Traps may be an exception, I know SUVs affect them.

Aside2: GTs are pretty great, even now - but mostly for soloplay. If you bring a few NPCs, you san solo areas that hit a fortegunners pockets a little too hard. the trick is to grind out some low star wands (3* or 5*), so you have nearly limitless PP. Human and Newman GTs have very respectable resta, Newmans can even gain megids immunity with high % dark armor. I have a Cast GT 10, who has none of those things, and is still quite fun to play.

Panzer, your arguments against DoT fail to consider ATA (which is poor for axes and swords), and the way damage works (you must overcome DFP in order to register damage).
I need only hit for a single point of damage with a rifle (with ranger ATA!), and I can apply SE4 burn, and watch 25% of enemy HP dissapear in...10 seconds? do this 4 times and ANY enemy is dead.

Diga's damage modifier is 280% at level 30. It's less than 20pp to cast, and cannot be blocked, or evaded, and no ATA is needed to use it.

In this way alone fTs are able to injure enemies that are tech resistant. Now, if this was not enough, diga can be used at a distance, and silences as well.



...Show me the fF examples of this, please. Show me how Ank Pikor outdamages Diga or Show me how a Forteighter quickly takes down a level 75 tengogh. Becasue I'd so love to solo moolight beast, being level 77 and all, which you say is on level.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SolomonGrundy on 2007-05-24 12:07 ]</font>

[Akaimizu]

On 2007-05-24 11:58, SolomonGrundy wrote:


Aside2: GTs are pretty great, even now - but mostly for soloplay. If you bring a few NPCs, you san solo areas that hit a fortegunners pockets a little too hard.

Well, that aspect only requires you to be able to hit at all and have a Resta. Not that they have that ability exclusively, as they are the worst resta class. They could be a ForteTecher and do that, if the Fortetecher wanted to be especially lazy.

The Casts do get that bonus of ATA and ATP (Newmans gets some ATA), so it's a bit of a different ballgame for a Human, who doesn't have that much.

More often than not, I have to do quite a bit of shooting to ensure the SE effect even lands on a creature and I technically don't have ANYTHING that can really outdamage another class. So those NPCs are actually there to help do real damage.

Humans and Newmans do get a little percentage bonus for being the class, but for humans, it doesn't quite cover for the bonus a Cast GT has, and what they do with it. So Humans are left with a bit of a different route. Trying to land SEs with 3rd class ATA.

Still, the solo aspect is a different case. And I don't technically consider dependancy on NPCs a solo bonus. Too many people can take advantage of that.

So show me how a human Guntecher can outdamage anybody unless they get fortunate with their SEs, and even then, you're comparing them to the group of classes that can do the same and have more powerful damage capabilities outside of just landing them. Then you deal with other classes that have at least 1 weapon that can hit multiple targets on an enemy, and have big damage capability across a group of targets. Thus why I truly believe the expansion will fix them with level 30 support techs, because if they exclusively don't have all those options, they can at least get a support bonus.

Even then, I'm happy using one, as what they have to do on the field is quite a fun excursion for them. I just don't see how others complain about their role when their role does indeed work. A human one, definitely needs to use all of their abilities to make most of the class, but as of right now, it's a bit lopsided towards those who have the high ATA and better if they have the ATP, too.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-05-24 13:05 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-24 11:58, SolomonGrundy wrote:
Aside: Kognad's cannot be burned, they can only be virused. Traps may be an exception, I know SUVs affect them.

Aside2: GTs are pretty great, even now - but mostly for soloplay.
...
Panzer, your arguments against DoT fail to consider ATA (which is poor for axes and swords), and the way damage works (you must overcome DFP in order to register damage).
I need only hit for a single point of damage with a rifle (with ranger ATA!), and I can apply SE4 burn, and watch 25% of enemy HP dissapear in...10 seconds? do this 4 times and ANY enemy is dead.

Diga's damage modifier is 280% at level 30. It's less than 20pp to cast, and cannot be blocked, or evaded, and no ATA is needed to use it.

In this way alone fTs are able to injure enemies that are tech resistant. Now, if this was not enough, diga can be used at a distance, and silences as well.

...Show me the fF examples of this, please. Show me how Ank Pikor outdamages Diga or Show me how a Forteighter quickly takes down a level 75 tengogh. Becasue I'd so love to solo moolight beast, being level 77 and all, which you say is on level.

Koggs will burn on SE3... along with Kamatoze, Polaharva, SEED Vitace, Tengougs and stuff. That's where I found out that my SE3 fire grenades will DOT large monsters, and my SE3 virus grenades won't.

ANY class that can cast Resta is at an advantage soloing harder areas, whatever doesn't kill them just provides resta XP... the first thing that sends a non-techer back to base is usually healing item costs. I find bringing my PM along is almost as good, just be ready to totally sack your mission rank since the PM can't be expected to live through anything serious.

Lots of people have told me about having problems with Axe ATA. Maybe as an 80/5 Cast Fortefighter I'm just not seeing it. It rolls some 0's but it hits reliably enough... Anga Durega has a really nice ATA modifier too, which probably helps. Zodiaride isn't a bad investment either, then again I get more out of that than any other race does too.

For these comparisons, I'm talking about actual damage I see being done not some crazy-ass projection based on stats and stuff. My fighter's Photon Arts do about as much damage as a DOT, for real.

SE4 burn is 3200/tick or something against Gol Dova.

The first 2 hits of anga durega total 2x500 + 2x1000. They're fast enough not to be interrupted or walked away from.

Spinning Break is probably much better for anything I can't knock down, because the full combo is mobile enough to stay on top of a slow-moving target, and comes out quickly enough to avoid interruption. I think it's like 4x500 + 2x800 + 6x500... that's a whole lot of damage.

If you're playing in an area SO DIFFICULT that you're only hitting for 1 HP, dealing 1 damage per hit is gonna be the least of your problems. Good luck living. I hope you didn't bring your scapes.

If you instead are thinking about using some supercrap gun in a mission you can actually handle, those 4 burns do take a while to tag... I've got a suspicion that monsters get a stamina boost or something after you've hit them with an SE, just because the first burn on a monster is never a problem and then sometimes you can finish the thing off using fire shots without seeing a second one come up.

Reorganize/edit:
The huge damage on the second hit of Anga Durega or the third hit of Anga Redda (I use that move on Polahorva, who are bastards) is a DFP-breaker the same way the huge damage on Diga is a MST-breaker. There's always plenty to spare even after losses to the defense stat.

The way I deal with Jarbas right now... and what I'd plan on doing for any melee-resistant single-location creature... is Anga Durega pogo-sticking. It's not _just_ that the second hit is cheap and comes out quickly and does huge damage that's good at cutting through DFP. It's also got some nice range and jump reach so if there are 2 creatures in the fight at all I can often leap away from the first move so that I land to hit both available targets.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2007-05-24 13:53 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

you are defentely seeing the benefit of being a Cast with the Axe. Even when I use the +30 ATA/-30 ATP unit, I am not hitting reliably (as a beast). I shelved a 7* axe. I use zodiaride too, but 15% of a small number is...a small number.

hitting a non melee resistant enemy like Goldova is not an issue. - pretty much ANY 2+ hit location weapon will suffice. Spear does a great job. I tried using Axe on Polhavora (Anga Redda). He stomps or swipes before the combo goes off, and axes pp runs out in a hurry.

I don't have Durega - I hear they upped it's accuracy, and it's first move has got good movement, but poor number of hits, and again, we are talking low pp, low accuracy. if it could hit a jarba 3x, for 500 a pop in a single combo...now we are cooking with oil!

The second sword PA is awful: few hits, expensive, and innacurate. Tell me why I want to go from 283 ATA, and 350 PP (8* spear), to 189 ATA, and 327 PP (8* longsword), keep in mind too, that dus duggas is fast, has great reach, and has more hits in it's combo by far.

it's like the second dagger PA, sunbu - it is ONLY good as a guntecker/fortegunner, who are limited to it's first move (which is cheap, almost as fast as rising strike, and daggers have far more pp)

[Niloklives]

ok either a bunch of monsters got nerfed while no one was looking or people are crazy. Jarbas are not bullet resistant. they are tech/melee resistant. kogg nads can be burned. I do it all the time with my bow. additionally they are only bullet resistant. my nightwalker will attest to that.

Furthermore and equally important I find this game to be just as hunter friendly as it always was. then again I've been a figh since the first week I got my guardian's license back in january. jarbas are a joke. if there's more than one, widely spaced out you shoot one form far enough away that you get a good scope of the room to see if megid is coming mechguns and dualies are great solutions even from up front.

if they are closely grouped together the right PA will let you lock down up to 3 of the guys with no worries of a reprisal. I use spiral dance, but buten (dagger PA) and rising crush are both fantastic alternatives *though with these expect a max of 2).

if it's one jarba. any of those three skills keep them locked down. just hit them from behind and guide the PA as needs be to stay behind them. even in lab with SKILLED 3 or 4 hunters that final room is a joke. I solo missions with lvl 85 monsters without incident and I make money doing it. this same strategy can be applied to most large enemies. heck I used to stun lock bils on bruce b with rising crush. killed them quickly and removed them from the fight completely while I was doing it. THAT'S what hunters do.

It boggles my mind when I hear people complain about some of the scenarios the game gives us - though I will admit there are certain areas that are difficult to solo as a hunter. these places are mainly on neudaiz where you end of fighting fire and ice enemies at the same time. the worst I see is in small spaces where you're faced with kamatose and Goshin simultaneously. unable to focus on either, your only viable solution is to uquip ice armor and stay away from the goshin while tagging them with whatever guns you have, knowing you're going to get tagged by that kamatose now and again. once the goshin are clear you can take out the kamatose with a knock down happy PA. or you can dance around him til you get a clear shot and tag him with Dus Daggas for maximum damage.

honestly, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but I see a lot of high level hunters that come across a situation and decide that if "hit it til it's dead" is not enough of a strategy, the game is too hard. then they see me Meleeing jarbas, grinnas and most anything else the game throws at us and wonder why I have such an easy time. BASH is not a viable solution in a game where various skils have different abilities set to them and various monsters that respond to those skills in their own way.

Use your PAs to their fullest. learn what their properties are and what each of these monsters do in response to those properties when applied to them. then apply that knowledge to the various situations the game presents you with and the game begins to boil down to a science. and if that doesn't interest you, then yes...hunters have it hard.

what i WILL say sucks about being a hunter is the amount of money and time that goes into aquring good weapons. as a GT, I can synth my bows, cards, xbows, dualies and if they come out, that's all I need to know. rods and wands it's the same story. the only risk comes from grinding as all of the elemental propeties as set by the bullets and techs you junction to the weapon. as a hunter I find myself praying for anything over 30% and if I don't get it I just sell it off so get money so I can try again. it's a gruelling and painfull process to have to go through for every element you want for any particular weapon. it gets even worse with Sranks as the time and enery that goes into finding a weapon board and the materials is bad enough. but I mean to have any one S rank of more than one element with high %s to boot? heck a force gets a Halarod, they can use that anywhere. but my brand new deva zashi is only good in places with dark enemies? a knive withe 30% ice is better on parum...that's not right. and in that sense, I feel financially, Hunters have it rough. aside from that I enjoy being a hunter type thoroughly. Hopefully those of you who feel these classes are gimped can understand why.

[panzer_unit]

On 2007-05-25 01:08, SolomonGrundy wrote:
you are defentely seeing the benefit of being a Cast with the Axe.
...
hitting a non melee resistant enemy like Goldova is not an issue. - pretty much ANY 2+ hit location weapon will suffice. Spear does a great job. I tried using Axe on Polhavora (Anga Redda). He stomps or swipes before the combo goes off, and axes pp runs out in a hurry.

I don't have Durega - I hear they upped it's accuracy, and it's first move has got good movement, but poor number of hits, and again, we are talking low pp, low accuracy. if it could hit a jarba 3x, for 500 a pop in a single combo...now we are cooking with oil!

The second sword PA is awful: few hits, expensive, and innacurate. Tell me why I want to go from 283 ATA, and 350 PP (8* spear), to 189 ATA, and 327 PP (8* longsword), keep in mind too, that dus duggas is fast, has great reach, and has more hits in it's combo by far.

That's a 9* axe too, as a Beast it would probably be a worthwhile upgrade over your 7* just for the ATA.

I use Redda against Polahorvas in a team, where someone else can handle the knockdowns. The extra damage versus their resistance and high DFP are worth it at that point. Without help, Rising Strike and Bogga Zubba are the two PA's I've got that do the job best. Unlike other big creatures Polas are flipped by launcher moves only, and knockback does almost nothing to them.

Not focusing on Anga Durega first was a big mistake for me. Once you get it to lv11 you'll see why, the one-two combo is incredibly useful... and the full combo brings the damage up on par with Redda, only with excellent crowd control and positioning options.

Yeah... spinning break isn't my favorite compared to daggas, but I decided a long time ago to dump my spears and spear PA's just 'cause they were too much like swords in terms of what they do. I've got lots of generic multihit 2-target PA's... DD is the best of the lot in terms of stats for the weapon its on and PP efficiency, but I'm willing to settle for blowing through a couple batteries on similar PA's for whatever otherwise-unused weapons I've got handy.

[SolomonGrundy]

@NIloklives: kog-nad was my mistake, I was misinformed (*strangles anonymous poster*) I think it's that they need virus 4 to be infected possibly? oh, and they did not change enemies. jarba's are bullet and tech resistant.

@Panzer: I completely understand stylistic choices (I am choosing not to use twin swords for this reason). I can respect that. Especially as a cast, where the lower ATA of swords is not an issue. I will try durenga, I do want to like axes, but at level 78, fF 10, my ata is in the 220's, fyi. i'll give durenga a shot.

[panzer_unit]

Jarbas aren't bullet resistant... my transer hits 'em for normal damage, about 425 w/ bow, 350 w/ laser, 225 w/ handgun.

Try getting your hands on a 9* axe... even if it's non-elemental... to give yourself a more ATA to work with. Durega's got such a high ATA modifier now, you might see a significant difference in how often you hit vs Redda.

[SolomonGrundy]

oops damn typos. i meant *melee* resistant. I will try durega, as soon as ultimate fist hits 21