Why only newmen and humans excel at Acrotecher.

[-Shimarisu-]

OK, this guide is based on CURRENT STATS in beta, which may change but right now here's a little piece of persuasion to make those beast/cast WTs looking at AT stats and thinking of going AT, THINK AGAIN.

Here's some solid facts right here. Wartecher is not a teching heavy class. Put it on newman (christ, you should not) and it will achieve, WITH WEAPON AND BUFFS, at best 60% the potential damage of fortetecher as well as roughly 60% the melee damage of fortefighter using the same weapons.

Focus on the area that does the most damage, melee, and put it on a beast or cast, and WITH WEAPON AND BUFFS you will achieve 75%-80% atp damage of fortefighter, and 50% tech damage of fortetecher. Which is, IMO the way to go. On this class the melee will always outdamage the tech, so if you want to see big numbers you should not play newman.

Ah, but here's why ACROTECHER will be fine on a newman.

Acrotecher boasts:

1. Almost the same ATP as WT. IN fact IIRC it's slightly more, which is why casts and beasts are looking at it to fix their tech woes. Bad plan.

2. Almost the same TP as fortetecher. A little lower, but it's up there.

3. Level 30 attack techs, same as WT.

4. Level 20 melee PAs.

5. Level 30 gun PAs.

People who only look at base stats are seeing this class as a replacement for WT. People who look at only base stats are ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG.

Here are the downsides to AT vs WT for tech crippled classes.

1. Almost the same ATP as WT right? Ah but your melee potential goes down, way down. You see that damage 75% figure you can attain as WT? Play AT as beast/cast and your melee goes down to the equivalent of a newman playing WT. The key is all in the PA modifier, your PAs now go up to only level 20. Which may seem like the same damage you were doing as WT BEFORE ILLUMINOUS, indeed it is, but as a potential output compared to the boosted numbers FF gets in Illuminous, you're going to look horribly gimp. WT will surpass your melee damage considerably. Add to that the fact that ALL ACROTECHER CAN EQUIP IS DAGGER, DOUBLE DAGGERS WHIP AND SABER. That is IT.

Verdict: you're sacrificing too much melee potential for a (crippled) boost in TP.

2. AT also gets level 30 attack techs, only 10 points below fortetecher. Coupled with only marginally lower TP than fortetecher, this means the damage potential on tech for human/newman isn't much lower than fortetecher, in fact the main area you'll lose out on is tech range. However as a class focussed on tech with melee as secondary attack to finish off statussed enemies, this is fine. As human or newman, you might manage 80% the damage of fortetecher. With much more robust stats and level 50 support, you'll solo FAR better than FT.

In the hands of a cast or beast? Well, for a start, WITH WEAPON EQUIPPED ON BOTH, your tech damage will be 60% that of fortetecher. VS the 80% of human or newman? Face it, this is not good.

The melee of human or newman WILL be weaker than beast or cast, but only marginally so and it is not the main focus of the race, unlike Wartecher.

From this post yuou can draw the following conclusions.

When you take a race that's weak in area A, high in area B and take on a merged class that boosts area A and gimps area B, you become sub par in BOTH areas.

A newman WT achieves roughly 60% melee, 60% tech potential.
A beast WT achieves 75-80% melee, 50% tech potential.

AT SHOULD use tech more than melee, as that's where it gets the big numbers.

A WT should use melee more than tech, EVEN ON NEWMAN, so it is preferable to play an ATP heavy race.

But put AT on an ATP heavy race, you achieve roughly the result of putting WT on a newman.

A beast AT achieves roughly 60% melee, 60% tech potential. Yep that's right.
A newman AT achieves roughly 50% melee, 80% tech potential. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Please guys, AT isn't going to fix the low tech of WT on a beast. It is not a fix for your lower teching potential (which I must remind you, is 3/4s that of newman WT anyway.)

Please, please stay WT. AT is a role for the humans and newmans.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-16 16:37 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-04-16 16:38 ]</font>

[SolomonGrundy]

Focus on the area that does the most damage, melee, and put it on a beast or cast, and WITH WEAPON AND BUFFS you will achieve 75%-80% atp damage of fortefighter, and 50% tech damage of fortetecher. Which is, IMO the way to go.

I'd like to see some hard numbers please. I calculated WT Newman TP + wand, vs fT Newman TP + Wand, ten multiplied through with tech damage 20, and 30), then further added the 1.15, and 1.2 of the buff for each class, and ended up with almost 2/3rds (66%), not 60%.

Also, when you say that beast/cast is 75-80% of fortefighters, are you counting both jobs with the buffs? Do you factor in the higher miss %? (Male fF casts have almost 50 more ATA that male WT cast...).

[-Shimarisu-]

I was counting solo. If you are partying in big parties with WT, you are not in the right role.

[Tra]

1. Almost the same ATP as WT right? Ah but your melee potential goes down, way down. You see that damage 75% figure you can attain as WT? Play AT as beast/cast and your melee goes down to the equivalent of a newman playing WT. The key is all in the PA modifier, your PAs now go up to only level 20. Which may seem like the same damage you were doing as WT BEFORE ILLUMINOUS, indeed it is, but as a potential output compared to the boosted numbers FF gets in Illuminous, you're going to look horribly gimp. WT will surpass your melee damage considerably. Add to that the fact that ALL ACROTECHER CAN EQUIP IS DAGGER, DOUBLE DAGGERS WHIP AND SABER. That is IT.

De ja vu Shimarisu?

[-Shimarisu-]

This is a copy/paste of my previous post on the subject.

A lot of these figures are rounded off and don't take every situation into account, so Solomon, if you are getting 66% tech vs FT, then fine. Just please switch to AT when Illuminous hits k? Your newman WT will thank you for it.

Copy+paste of previous number crunching post now follows.

OK here's my proof, kiddies.

Let's go beast male vs male newman to be fair, even though I know newman WTs are mostly female.

Beast male WT stats, 80/10.

HP: 2477
ATP: 673 vs 80/10 beast fortefighter's 901
ATA: 179
TP: 472 vs 80/10 male newman FT's 1254
DEF: 163
EVP: 374
MST: 119
STA: 10

576

Newman male WT stats, 80/10.

HP: 2003
ATP: 528 vs 80/10 beast fortefighter's 901
ATA: 234
TP: 821 vs 80/10 male newman FT's 1254
DEF: 140
EVP: 453
MST: 269
STA: 10

Now. The trouble with most people who only look at base stats is they look at these stats and see more bigger numbers in the newman field, and think that automatically makes newman a better WT. Ah, if only that were the case.

Let's view why it's not the case, shall we?

The numbers that mean the most in this role are the ATP and TP. Defensive stats are sky high no matter the race playing it. WT truly is a tank.

WT's greatest damage output also comes from its daggers, hands down: Let's crunch some numbers. Assuming for arguments sake that we are using a fairly easy to attain weapon, a katsuno zashi which are the best daggers WT can equip. Let's assume they also have a fairly non challenging to aquire % of 28 elemental.

On a beast male WT, total ATP with weapon is now 875.

Total ATP modified against opposing monster element is 1163. (you actually get a 5% bonus gain when using any elemental weapons, so the correct ATP modifier is actually x1.33)

On a newman WT, we're looking at total ATP with weapon of 730.

Total ATP modified against opposing monster element is 970. Damage output DIFFERENCE is now starting to creep down with the % modifiers in place.

Let's look at the figures if we use Renkai Buyozan. Now, I THINK Renkai at lvl 20 is 120% damage modifier. I've forgotton due to the fact my bast WT on AoI is now sporting a 21+ Renkai. And my old figures for Renkai in the Perfect Bible are now outdated.

With Renkai, the total ATP of beast WT is now 1511. Newman ATP comes to 1261.

IF your daggers were 50% element (and many of mine WERE, back on PC when I could afford them), total beast ATP would be 1627, and newman would be 1314.

IF you used this same setup on a beast FORTEFIGHTER, with the 28% daggers you would have 1835 damage output with renkai lvl 30, and 2150 with 50%. Check that out.

Max potential with daggers on fortefighter is 2150, beast WT gets 1627 and newman gets 1314. That's WITHOUT shifta/agtarides. WITH shifta or and debuffs your damages SOLO as a WT come much closer to fortefighter IF you are beast. Also beast fortefighters can play the "I use agtarides when soling" cadr all they like, but realistically we KNOW that most of them aern't topping it up every time it runs out.

So perhaps I was a little unfair when I said newman was 50% the damage of fortefighter, when using the same weapons. More like 60%, but beast there is pushing over 75% proficiency.

WITH DIGA ON +10 W'gacros. I'll use this example because it is the tech most used by WTs. Well maybe foie is too, but let's look at these figures.

On beast male, total TP with weapon is 1048.
On newman male, total TP with weapon is 1397.

Total TP with diga level 20 for beast male WT=2640.
Total TP with diga level 20 for newman male WT=3520.

Huge difference huh? But bear in mind how slow diga is, how many targets it hits and just how much more damage daggers get over that figure. Add that the beast WT is STILL pumping out 3/4 the damage of newman.

VERSUS DIGA ON A FORTETECHER (this is key).

Total TP with diga level 30 for newman male FT=5124.

WT, with optimal TP (as newman) will only ever reach 2/3rds the tech potential of FT. If you solo, FT's ability to boost their techs with level 30 retier vs WT's lvl 20 is only more damning.
WT, with optimal ATP (as beast) will only ever reach 3/4s the ATP potential of FF. If you solo, the best FF can do is equal that, but they have to use agtarides. Not half as damning as WT vs. FT solo-wise.

So, newman WT has roughly 3/5ths the atp potential of pure, 2/3rds the TP potential.
Beast WT has 3/4 the atp, 1/2th the TP potential.

Either race will use ATP more than TP, it will account for MORE damage output. Melee is faster, it will hit more targets, it will MORE OFTEN damage for greater numbers than tech.

Newman doesn't get nanoblast, either.

In conclusion, beast makes a better WT than newman.

[EphekZ]

numbers aside, just telling from the PA limits, you can tell WT was increased for the players whom are more melee oriented(beasts and casts[maybe humans]) and AT is for the players who are more support oriented(humans and newmans)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: EphekZ on 2007-04-16 16:56 ]</font>

[-Shimarisu-]

In fact, given their greater damage with whip, and very decent nuking ability coupled with the best support, AT might just prove the best class for human to play.

I'm trying to figure out who is better at it, human or newman. Going to be a close run contest. At least we finally have a hybrid class human excels at that cast cannot touch.

[Tra]

You know you forgot to add in what I've stated in the WT guide, not only the damage modifier that you're missing from that extra 10 PA levels, you're also missing the third combo.

You say you want to solo? I can tell you that Renkai... 1st combo hits 6 times, 2nd hits 6 times, 3rd hits 12 times along with a blowback. But mmm guess you don't mind that

Dus daggas, same thing. 1st part hits 4 times, 2nd hits 6, third hits 9 times. Each of those last 9 hits hit stronger than the rest. Try it yourself. You're missing a TON of ownage on big multiple target things that can't be knocked back if you don't have lv21 dus daggas for example. Want a video?

[Soukosa]

Glad someone has made a post like this. I'm getting tired of putting up with the idiots that think a beast or cast AT would be awesome and I just don't feel like trying to explain to them why >.>

As for the human/newman thing, I personally think they're about the same. It really depends upon what you want. A human one would be able to melee a bit better while a newman would rely more upon techs. I've played the class on both races for a bit too

You should also take into account that all expert classes (except FTs) got their stat mods buffed in AoI at lv 10. It won't change how AT is viewed but it can have an impact on WT.

The new WT 10 stat mods:
HP: 130%
ATP: 112%
ATA: 80%
TP: 112%
DFP: 122%
EVP: 160%
MST: 130%
STA: 100%

For a little comparison, if needed, AT lv 10 stat mods:
HP: 110%
ATP: 96%
ATA: 140%
TP: 130%
DFP: 100%
EVP: 210%
MST: 180%
STA: 100%

I'll let you draw the conclusions for it. You have a much better sense of seeing how a class works than 90% of the people here at least.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-04-16 17:13, Tra wrote:
You know you forgot to add in what I've stated in the WT guide, not only the damage modifier that you're missing from that extra 10 PA levels, you're also missing the third combo.

You say you want to solo? I can tell you that Renkai... 1st combo hits 6 times, 2nd hits 6 times, 3rd hits 12 times along with a blowback. But mmm guess you don't mind that

Dus daggas, same thing. 1st part hits 4 times, 2nd hits 6, third hits 9 times. Each of those last 9 hits hit stronger than the rest. Try it yourself. You're missing a TON of ownage on big multiple target things that can't be knocked back if you don't have lv21 dus daggas for example. Want a video?

Get out of my topic please, we're talking projected Illuminous stats anyway, not your boring WT hate.

WT is going to get that third combo in Illuminous. And newmen should still stick to AT.

My point stands on why newmen suck at WT, it will moreso in Illumuinous when they get a hybrid role they are better at.