Religion: philosophical questions about Christianity

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2007-11-11 00:03, Sord wrote:

Spoiler!

On 2007-11-10 23:41, HUnewearl_Meira wrote:

On 2007-11-10 18:26, Ronin_Cooper wrote:
I think it goes that god existed before even time and space themselves.

So as far as I know, no.

That's getting close to the way I see it. You see, the trouble is that it is infinitely improbable that existence itself will occur spontaneously. Logic dictates that we cannot exist, but yet we do. The logical solution is that the party responsible for existence as we are aware of it, is independent of the constraints of Time. If the Creator is independent of Time, then its origination is immaterial-- it can occur at any time, and be self-perpetuating.

...

That's all quite complicated though, and at present, I think I'm too tired to write what I'm certain would amount to something like 13,000 words to describe it really thoroughly.

I get what you're saying I think. And from what I understand about space-time, we share a constant rate of energy/mass between them (and can exchange between them, otherwise seen as "warping" space time.) I think a great amount of it is supposed to be in the dimension of time (considering mass itself can move so much faster in the physical plains then our current state. To move at light speed is to take all energy out of time, hence why light never ages.) though I can't quite remember correctly.

Regardless, the point definitly leads to the fact there can't be any energy or mass as we know it, otherwise it would exist in space-time. Therefore, whatever caused space-time would be outside the influence of the four dimensions. Therefore logic would dictate whatever brought about space-time and mass and energy with it (which from what I understand, all occured within the big bang, even space-time was contained in that little spec) would have to be outside of it.

If that's what you mean, then that's quite a thought. It had never occured to me before, though I'm aware there are supposed to be other dimensions. It certainly brings a an intresting light to such phrases like "transcending the body," (ie. our space-time) and "god is everywhere" (ie ecompasses space-time.)

of course, if I'm wrong in what I think you're trying to say, by all means tell me when you feel up to it. I don't mind a 13,000 word page if it really is that long. I'm the last one to pull a tl;dnr on an answer to a question I asked.

I think you've got the general idea of what I'm saying, though I also think that you've perhaps over-examined it. The essential idea is that the Creator must necessarily be able to travel to the ends of time with greater ease than you or I might travel across the room. He can pluck out bits of it, and alter things as desired, to achieve an effect later on in the timeline.

The logic for why this is necessary goes something like this: Time must necessarily have a beginning. It is, after all, defined by beginnings and ends. Likewise, everything in the universe, necessarily, has a beginning and an end, including the universe itself. If we consider the universe and time prior to their starts, we find that there can be nothing-- there is no space or time for anything to exist within. Without a Creative Power of some sort, we are left to assume that time and the universe began without any source or inspiration. The Big Bang Theory is all well and good, but it still doesn't explain how anything arrived.

We are therefore required to identify the existence of something that can produce the universe. By whatever power of creation it may happen to posess, it was able to bring something from nothingness. In order for this to occur, however, this being must requisitely be independent of these things that it is creating, as they are insufficient to harbor its existence.

Because this being is independent of time, it does not require a beginning or an end to exist-- these are temporal properties, and the being in question is non-temporal. The being also does not require energy or mass to exist-- these are physical properties, and this being is non-physical.

There's another aspect of this whole thing that I'd really like to point out and discuss, but I feel that I will be unable to, until I can wrap my mind around it a bit more firmly.

[Kendrik]

Interesting. Quite interesting. I definitely need to spend more time studying and thinking about metaphysics.

I approve of this thread.

[Alisha]

On 2007-11-10 18:26, Ronin_Cooper wrote:
I think it goes that god existed before even time and space themselves.

So as far as I know, no.

if this is the case wouldnt that mean that god caused the extinction of dinosaurs? the existance of dinosaurs is a hurdle i could never get over when it comes to non pagan religeons. this combined with the many different races of humans on this planet makes me wonder if something along the lines of the gods in stargate is closer to reality.

[Weeaboolits]

Er, dinosaurs didn't exist before time. >_>;

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2007-11-14 06:45, Alisha wrote:
if this is the case wouldnt that mean that god caused the extinction of dinosaurs? the existance of dinosaurs is a hurdle i could never get over when it comes to non pagan religeons. this combined with the many different races of humans on this planet makes me wonder if something along the lines of the gods in stargate is closer to reality.

Well, there's a few things to consider here. The general idea is that the dinosaurs died out due to some cataclysmic event, but that may or may not be true. It is also likely that as Earth's environment changed over the eons, they simply bred down in size, and came to extinction slowly. Another consideration, is that many of them could be fairly common reptiles that still exist today, but conditions at the time allowed them to live long enough to reach enormous sizes-- reptiles never stop growing.

It is likely that some dinosaurs existed alongside mankind. The Bible mentions enormous beasts like Leviathan and Behemoth, and our myths, legends and various folklores are filled with tales about dragons. Let's also not forget about things like the Loch Ness Monster, and the massive creatures sometimes found in the seas.

Truth be told, most species of dinosaur that survived whatever circumstances killed most of them off, have probably been hunted into extinction by mankind, with only a few struggling specimens left behind.