The fall of the Newman race

[landman]

So if they made a new game with algonian races (one can dream) which one would be the strongest using techs, Parmanian or Dezolian? (Espers are supposed to be Parmanians, aren't they?) I really hope newman return to their origins in the possible next game... (and with newman ears, not elven ears...)

[Nai_Calus]

Other than Rika having black tips on her ears, HUnewearl-type ears look exactly like the ones on the PS numans. >_>; (Nor for that matter do I typically see elves drawn with ears that stick straight out a foot from their heads? o.O)

It's hard to say. Raja is a good tech user, but all the Dezolians you fight as enemies in PSI shoot at you. Raja's skills are also all tech-like things related to him being a priest.

On the other hand, while Espers are indeed Palmans and most Palmans seem to be at least decent with techs, some can't use them at all.

But frankly I'd rather they got away from stereotyping races into certain roles. I greatly dislike having a race that's good at techs to the exclusion of all else, a race oriented towards being a gun-user to the exclusion of all else, a race that's oriented towards being a meleer to the exclusion of all else... PSU's system pisses me off more, and feels more limiting to me, than PSO's did, where at least every race had a decent example of at least two classes. Instead every race in PSU is pigeon-holed into a single job type, except for humans, who suck equally at everything.

Honestly, I'd much rather they got away from that. Do more like, say, D&D. Generate your stats(That'd be a pita though, and everyone would constantly remake for the best stats. >_>), or have an ability point buy system, or a set spread, whatever, maybe racial modifiers to certain stats, perhaps, you know, let us actually customize our characters to an extent. Maybe I want a strong human who can't use any kind of techniques or magic, or a physically frail Esper who can blow up giant rocks for fun, or a more balanced character good at a bit of both. Y'know? PS gives us a wide variety of humans, and then later on in PSO and especially PSU they're all useless jacks-of-no-trades who are never actually good at anything, and all the other races are hopelessly pigeonholed.

So really, I wouldn't want a race that's 'strongest with techs'. Too limiting.

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-05-13 14:41, Sinue_v2 wrote:
They have quite a lot of similarities you're glossing over. Both are the strongest of the known races in their respective solar systems. Both of them are quite poor at magic. Both of them are poor at forming societies and instead tend to cluster into "clans" or "Families". Beasts were originally designed to keep their beast form permanently - but it required too much energy from them and a half-human/half-beast compromise was made. Both of them are "scavenger" races which make due with what they can.

The Genetic Engineering is about the only thing Beasts and Numans have in common.

I said ST reused Motavian culture for Beasts, probably because Numan story doesn't work as well when you're dealing with a large number of characters.

Regardless, there are actual story points in common between Numans and Beasts while the only link between Numans and Newmans is re-use of a name.

MotherBrain was on Mota in PSII, it's on Parum in PSU... the series doesn't try to be all that consistent.

More like, Sonic Team didn't think anyone would actually play alien races
...
As for Nei's backstory, it's actually quite rich if you read the supplametary material and put it into context with Neifirst and the role the Numan project played in Mother Brain's plans.

Yeah but that's just one character. They needed a way to make it work as a racial choice, which I don't think could be done decently.

But she was, and always was. She just couldn't access it because of the Photon Seal which was draining away her powers. It's a minor plotpoint in PSU, and is pretty much resolved by chapter 6. Consdiering that PSU spans, so far, 25 chapters - she is represented as that archetype for most of the game's storyline. Even if we don't see very much of her.

As for her being different as a stress to the point that she's not like the typical PSU Newman, it futher illustrates the point trying to be made by the OP that Newmans have changed quite drastically away from Numans in the classic series

Resolving the story about Karen's photon seal and her sister Mirei turns her into an entirely different person.

My point here is that Newmans aren't "Numans" AT ALL; and the OP misses the boat entirely because they should be making the comparison (in PSU at least) with Beast characters. They're not identical, having been merged with Motavians for the sake of cultural context, but it's some meaningful similarities vs none at all.

As for Laia Martinez, she only really resembles the Myau archetype by her use of claws. She's not good with techniques, she's not extremely agile or quick, she's not intelligent, and she also tends to use an array of heavier weapons like spears and swords.

Laia's always depicted using claws from what I've seen. Her use of axes is appropriate to the Motavian influence on the Beast race obviously, too bad she's not a lot more one-dimensional to satisfy the fundamentalists.

I don't see Nei being described as intelligent by anyone (someone does say she's cute) and I don't see where she's particularly good with techs, having nothing but level-appropriate healing techiniques as far as I can recall.

[Sinue_v2]

MotherBrain was on Mota in PSII, it's on Parum in PSU...

Er, Mother Brain in PSII wasn't on Mota. She was on the Noah in space. Daughter was on Mota. There may have been a Daughter on Palm as well, as Daughter was meant to be a backup to Mother Brain in case of catastrophic failure. We don't know. There wouldn't have been a Daughter on Dezo simply because Palman humans didn't have a significant presence there. Their main colony outpost was abandoned due to severe toxic gas leaks.

I said ST reused Motavian culture for Beasts, probably because Numan story doesn't work as well when you're dealing with a large number of characters.

Numans could have been written back into the storyline quite easily, since Rika was created to the vanguard of a new race of Motavian humans. She was to spread her genetic information into the world to help better adapt the future generations to changes in Motavian climate as it turned back into a desert world. So that genetic information could be extracted at a later point in time to rebuild the Numan race. Further, SEED wasn't the only Biosystems lab on Motavia. He himself was just a subsystem to GENE who originally restarted the Numan project. So it's possible that another Biosystem lab picked up where SEED left off after he self-destructed.

But that's just for an explanation of Numans in Algol. In another storyline, in another solar system, the reasons for creating Numans/Newmans might be similar, or it might be altered. It doesn't really matter, since in fiction you can alter the storyline to fit the premise. They could have kept Numans as they were and used a thousand different reasons why.

Further, PSU Newmans and Beasts share a history of being genetically modified. The only difference between the two is the reasons for why they were created. Newmans were created to better harness Photon technology. Beasts were created as slaves for manual labor. Neither of these races were created to be biosoldiers the way Numans were.

If you JUST skim the surface information, Numans and Newmans were created for the same reason. An experiment in creating a superior human. It's not until you look at the supplimentary information in both cases that you see the real underlying motivations for their creation. Beasts have always had their reason for creation known quite clearly. They are designed specifically for manual labor in the mines. It just wasn't explained that they were always intended to be slaves until later.

They're not identical, having been merged with Motavians for the sake of cultural context

Er, no. In a cultural context, Numans were merged with Dezolians. This is most obviously seen in the level of importance which both races hold religion. Newmans are ruled by a theocracy with the Communion of Gurhal as it's head of state. Dezolian culture is deeply rooted in their worship of fire and light, and their most sacred artifact - the Eclipse Torch - plays a major role in the series. Not to mention that the only Dezolians charater to join your party in any of the games, is a priest. No other races in Algol are shown to have any sort of religion outside of Christianity (apparently), and worshiping ancient dark gods (Dark Force). (And the churches of PSI were simply a generic gameplay mechanic for reviving characters. They do not make an appearance in any later game or the PSI remake)

Again, I see absolutely no similarities between Beasts of PSU and Numans of PS aside from "Genetic Engineering" - of which the Newmans of PSU also share in common.

I don't see Nei being described as intelligent by anyone

Considering that she's only roughly a year old, I'd say she's pretty intelligent for her age. She never had any formal education, since she was "split" from her sister. Nei and Neifirst were the same person, and Nei existed as a fractured shard of Neifirst's mind. This is why you can kill Nei and not harm Neifirst... but killing Neifirst is fatal to Nei. Neifirst, was extremely intelligent. She was the one who manipulated the Biosystems labs and began breeding biomonsters enmasse. Numan intelligence was later demonstrated more fully with Rika who being of a similar age, was already the most knowledgeable member of your party outside of Wren of Demi. What Rika lacked, however, was real-world experience and her childish nievete showed. That's what happens when you're cooped up in a lab most of your life and fed knowledge from a computer terminal.

As for techniques, Nei was quite adept at Techs - albiet, healing techniques. Mostly those centered around her theme of sacrifice, but she was your party's #1 healer for the first half of the game until Amy who was a trained medic was high enough level to take over. At which point, Nei died. Rika showed much more potential with techniques, as she filled the same role for much of PSIV and had a wider bredth of techniques to use.

Neither Nei or Rika were adept at offensive techniques. Both characters technique abilities were primarily support oriented. They offered healing and protection for the party. This is in line with Myau's role in PSI - as his magic was primarily support using spells such as Exit, Trap, Terrify, Wall, Cure, and Help.

And to say that Numans were adept at techniques does not mean they were powerful casters. They have never been on the level of pure-casting characters such as Raja, Rune, Lutz, Kira, etc. Many human characters, even in combat roles, are at least similarly competent in techniques. Just different kinds of technqiues, generally more offensively related than defensively.

Laia's always depicted using claws from what I've seen.

And again, that means... what? Claws are not the only defining characteristic of the Myau archetype, and it's the only trait she shares in common. As for not being one-dimensional, I'd beg to differ - but that is a result of poor storytelling and character development. A problem that most all PSU characters share in common.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2008-05-14 09:17 ]</font>

[landman]

So in the end:

PSU newmen = Dezolians
PSU Beasts = Motavians
PSU "numen" = do not exist

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-05-14 09:06, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Numans could have been written back into the storyline quite easily, since Rika was created to the vanguard of a new race of Motavian humans. She was to spread her genetic information into the world to help better adapt the future generations to changes in Motavian climate as it turned back into a desert world.

Golly, just like PSU newmenbeasts. Catgirls engineered to live on Mota. But "hi, we just walked out of an automated lab, nice to meetcha" is way too shallow for a premise for an entire race in an online RPG.

Er, no. In a cultural context, Numans were merged with Dezolians.

... what argument have you got to back that up? That they're called "newmen"? The name could just indicate "men of New Dezolis".

I don't see Nei being described as intelligent by anyone

Considering that she's only roughly a year old, I'd say she's pretty intelligent for her age.

As for techniques, Nei was quite adept at Techs - albiet, healing techniques. Mostly those centered around her theme of sacrifice, but she was your party's #1 healer for the first half of the game until Amy who was a trained medic was high enough level to take over.

Nei's also incredibly big for a one-year-old. She was force-grown to some teen-equivalent age and it's safe to assume her brain got similar treatment. If she had deft reasoning skills, I'd consider her as smart.

Similarly tThe only "good" thing about Nei's technique ability was that she had nothing more valuable to save MP for than spamming Res. All of the humans could cast that and far more.

And to say that Numans were adept at techniques does not mean they were powerful casters. They have never been on the level of pure-casting characters such as Raja, Rune, Lutz, Kira, etc. Many human characters, even in combat roles, are at least similarly competent in techniques.

Beasts are a close second to humans in casting power. There's another significant similarity. PSU has a match for the catgirl characters of older games, they're just not called "newmen"... I think the colonists of New Dezolis called dibs on that before the species was created in a lab.

And again, that means... what? Claws are not the only defining characteristic of the Myau archetype, and it's the only trait she shares in common.

It's series symbology. Sort of like the obvious significance of a Star Wars character using a light saber. When a character uses a claw in a PS story, that's a pretty clear "hey remember Nei? Remember Rika? This one's like just that."

[landman]

What I get from what you two are saying is that both PSU newman and beast are "numan" in origin but none of them is fiscally a "numan", instead their abilities and cultures are more similar to motavians and dezolians, so, in the end, the "numan" race doesn't exist in PSU, there are only Dezolians with another name and skin

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-05-14 11:05, landman wrote:
What I get from what you two are saying is that both PSU newman and beast are "numan" in origin but none of them is fiscally a "numan", instead their abilities and cultures are more similar to motavians and dezolians, so, in the end, the "numan" race doesn't exist in PSU, there are only Dezolians with another name and skin

Fiscally? Like in terms of cash balances?

I'm saying if you wanted a PSU character as much like Nei or Rika as possible you could roll Beast and get something very similar, right down to the furry pointed ears (Rika's obviously, and Nei's are purple from behind as well according to PSII combat screens on my PSP)

"A Numan by any other name is still a frontline combat character with techniques for support only."

... Newmans also have pointy ears, but those are the only applicable similarities and even at that it's less accurate.

[landman]

lol that was a typo xDD sorry, I mean physically

[Sinue_v2]

Golly, just like PSU newmenbeasts. Catgirls engineered to live on Mota. But "hi, we just walked out of an automated lab, nice to meetcha" is way too shallow for a premise for an entire race in an online RPG.

Er, she was still a bio-soldier first and foremost. She is a Nei-Series clone with very slight alterations. GENE spent 1,000 years correcting and perfecting genetic instabilities which caused the NM-1000 series to be rejected. The purpose of the Numan project was to destroy humanity and replace it with a superior race. When GENE was destroyed by Wren and Demi, SEED took over the project and with Nei's help only spent a few short years altering the genetic code and testing before Rika was created.

They were biosoldiers. Not slaves.

As for simply "walking out of a lab", you're right. That is a shallow premise. One that both PSO and PSU uses to a large degree.

.. what argument have you got to back that up?

Read what I wrote, and you'll have your answer. But, considering that you won't even take the game designers word on what they intended to be references (i.e. Beasts come from Motavians) in their own game, I really shouldn't be surprised that it's not good enough for you.

Nei's also incredibly big for a one-year-old. She was force-grown to some teen-equivalent age and it's safe to assume her brain got similar treatment. If she had deft reasoning skills, I'd consider her as smart.

That makes no sense. If you were to create a clone of yourself, at present age, would it be reasonable to expect that clone to have learned everything you currently know you have from experience, school, recreation, etc within the span of one year? If her brain has an accelerated pace of learning and memory retention, then yes, that makes them highly intelligent and more intelligent humans simply because she can learn that much faster.

And again, Nei/Neifirst did not have the benefit of a formal education that Rika did. And yet, Neifirst was able to very quickly learn and master the operation of a very complex bioengineering facility.

In any case, it does not fit in at all with Beasts who are known to be a very stupid and slow race of people. This is stated - BY BEASTS even - several times in the storyline. Motavians, similarly, are quite prone to being uneducated and rather thick. They're fighters, not scholars. But one thing they DO well, however, is tinker. They are quite mechanically inclined and often hobble things together from junkpiles. Kinda sounds similar to Kubara, and their cheap black-market knockoffs doesn't it?

All of the humans could cast that and far more.

You need to go back over your PSII technique chronology.

Beasts are a close second to humans in casting power.

Beasts are the worst of the organic races at casting techniques. They top only an artificial race to which the presence of a "soul" is still debatable - and the "soul" or "Spirit" is what determines technique strength. In PSO, they could not use techniques at all, nor could they cast techniques in the classic series with the lone exception of Meiu and her model line. They, however, were cyborgs. A mixture of both organic and non-organic life.

I think the colonists of New Dezolis called dibs on that before the species was created in a lab.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

It's series symbology. Sort of like the obvious significance of a Star Wars character using a light saber. When a character uses a claw in a PS story, that's a pretty clear "hey remember Nei? Remember Rika? This one's like just that."

Again, that's a very weak position to take. Lucaim Nav also uses claws primarily, and also uses fists, both of which are very quick, lightweight, and close range weapons which Numans in the past have prefered. In fact, that would make him closer to the Numan archetype because he doesn't use any heavy weapons at all.