DpS: Twin Handguns vs Rifle

[Dakkon]

Thanks for the feedback, folks!


I am forced to conclude that Rifles, in the end (Level 40+), will, indeed, out-DpS Twin Handguns. I think the margin, however, will be small enough to warrant keeping a pair of Twins on my pallet as GM.


Thanks, everyone, for helping me hash this out, if even in my own benefit.

He just politely conceded and concluded that Rifles are superior, and just made his personal note about how he will keep using his Twin Handguns because he likes the weapon.

What's the point for further discussion?

The OP himself courteusly surrended, stop the bashing, there is nothing left here to argue. Try to show the same education as he did.

[MoorePSO]

(absolute lack of argument)

This from the original "absolute lack of argument" in this thread.

Yeah, "Those figures are off, not worth reading," is so substantive! /sarcasm

ROTFLMAO!

Your figures are off, how can I contribute any further?

Simple. By elaborating upon your initial premise, "Those figures are off". Which you still haven't done.

Even if you calculations are correct, they don't mean anything with erroneous figures.

Your "rebuttal" means nothing without subtantiation. None of which have you bothered to offer in your condescending dismissal.

Secondly, you're comparing weapons in a situation which is only relevant if 1/ your bullet has no element... or 2/ you're fighting neutral monsters, in which case you might have a point...

Yup. I was looking at a "baseline". The fact is, not everyone uses opposite element bullets in every situation. Ground can be very handy to shut-down Gaozorans even though Light will do more damage. In that case it is the same net effect (in terms of damage calculations) as using a neutral bullet or fighting a neutral enemy.


And, if you'd bothered to read past your ego, I conceded in Post #9 that elemental percentages would ultimately put rifles past twins.

... if there was not much better weapons to fight those neutral monsters, whether you're Fortegunner or Gunmaster.

Since I was only comparing DpS between Rifles and Twin Handguns, whether there is anything better is completely irrelevant to the topic.

Also, let me repeat, your figures are WAY off.

Statements without evidence or argument are meaningless.

If you had read other recent topics before blindly starting yours, you could have noticed what I have already calculated (ages ago, too) about this...

Yup. And rather than take them at face value, and just trust some pompous, self-professed expert at his word, I decided to attempt to verify it for myself through actual testing.

What you just did is as good as comparing, as stated above, a 50% 9* melee weapon and a 10% 11* melee weapon, remarking that the 9* deals more damage, and concluding that the 9* version is therefore mathematically a better weapon.

In otherwords, there's too much of a discrepancy between Att. and/or elemental percentages to make it a valid comparison. Fair enough.

But in that case, comparing a Rifle with exactly twice the Acc. (to level the per-attack Att.) as the Twin Handguns and using bullets of the exact same elemental percentage and damage modifier, the Twins would come out farther ahead.

Since you haven't shown that my methodology was flawed -- Hint: Claiming I'm wrong is not demonstrating that I'm wrong -- I can only conclude that my methodology was sound. So, since...

• I tested twins with less than half the Att. of the rifle; and

• I testing using bullets with a 3% elemental difference and a 27% difference in damage modifier...

... and the Twins showed a slightly better rate of DpS, "leveling" the Att., Elemental Percentage, and Bullet Att. Modifier would put the twins even farther ahead.

In case it's still not clear, your figures are WAY off.

In case it's still not clear, just claiming it doesn't make it so. Statements without substantiation are meaningless.



Now, you obviously have nothing of substance, constructive or otherwise, to contribute to this discussion, so STFU & GTFO.

[MoorePSO]

The OP himself courteusly surrended, stop the bashing, there is nothing left here to argue. Try to show the same education as he did.

Thank you, Dakkon. If I had bothered to read past Hrith's (non)rebuttal to me, far enough to read this ^, then I might not have taken the bait...

[Genoa]

I never understood why people compare classes, weapons, races, etc... against each other when all the combinations are situational.

In comparison to EACH OTHER:
Twin Handguns:
Mobility to strafe and fire
Less range in comparison
Lvl.2 status effects
Fires 2 shots (however the ATP difference combined with elemental difference and accuracy difference still doesn't over-damage a Rifle)
Same PP cost, but less PP than rifles

Rifles:
Knockdown at 31+
Longer range
Lvl.5 status effects
Fires 1 shot with considerably higher ATP combined with more elemental % and accuracy.
Same PP cost, more PP than Twin handguns

The firing rate isn't much different, however, it really comes down to either:
Your need for mobility, range, knockdown, status effect sticking, OR (God forbid) playing preference.

[dc534]

Alright I am not going to go into to many details but here is what my FiG can hit with his Dual pistols:

2 shots x ~1030per/shot with lvl 4 buffs
or ~880 with lvl 2 megistride.

Either way as far as dps is concerned I can see how someone can argue the dualies can out dps a rifle, especially with the ease of movement.

This argument I thought was over dps not dps at certain ranges. I would just say take a rifle in best circumstance, and the dualies and I believe you can clearly see both can be used in different circumstances

[mvffin]

dualies are not for dodging enemies, they are for chasing enemies who like to move around.

[Astarin]

dualies are not for dodging enemies, they are for chasing enemies who like to move around.

Thank you! For some reason, this keeps getting overlooked, even though it's probably the most unique advantage of twin handguns. It seems some people would rather brow-beat the same points into the ground.

[Genoa]

dualies are not for dodging enemies, they are for chasing enemies who like to move around.

Well... enemies moving around can be shot down with a rifle (and by shot down... I mean it literally) and besides, the range on rifle makes it where you don't HAVE to chase down enemies. But if other targets get in front of your shots... but then again, what would be wrong with shooting down a target that crosses into your current target? =/

[Tycho]

As others have stated, the weapons are used for different purposes.
I share Hrith's opinion of Twin Handguns' DPS potential being underestimated here. Ofcourse an obvious argument for this would be the awkward comparison of a 11* Rifle to 7* Twin Handguns, but I believe another argument should be added in favour of Twins.
Fieldwork is nice and all, but as stated above, it is situational for experiments like this, and therefore not very fit to draw universal conclusions from.
The obvious flaw here is that Twin Handguns get most of their DPS from their firing rate rather than from their ATP, as Rifles do. Now, as characters get more ATP by themselves, the balance will shift in favour of Twin Handguns (hence a lot of people eventually ended up using fast weapons like Mechguns on PSO for similar reasons).

In short, the game is still balanced, because eventually Twin Handguns still have more damage potential, while Rifles still have other uses (SE, knockback, range). .. As most people already knew.

[Hrith]

Thank you, Dakkon. If I had bothered to read past Hrith's (non)rebuttal to me, far enough to read this ^, then I might not have taken the bait...

I love people who cannot face being proven so totally wrong, cannot even show decency towards their own persona.