My theory on where Character Unbalancing occured.

[RemiusTA]

Kinda got carried away, but i had fun doing it. Used this neat tool here :
http://calc.psupedia.info/index.html
, PSUpedia's Dmg calculator, which ive tested to be pretty damn accurate. (if not almost perfect.)

melee getting the crap beat out of them while doing the least amount of damage is more balanced? gunners and techers can just stand back from a safe distance and dish out damage. techers don't even have to worry about missing. so of course they're not gonna do as great of damage.

Im going to explain my off-the-top theory on what unbalanced this game.

Disclaimers:

Spoiler!

***I did NOT factor Rangers into this arguement, simply because its the only class i dont care for. I dont know enough about them to factor in things like DPS just off the top of my head, so ill just leave them out for now. But for the most part, i dont hear anyone complain about their killing capabilities as much as Bullet leveling, so i dont focus on them.***

So this is mostly a Hunter and Force arguement, and how the gap between the best and (currently) worse class came to happen, and how they switched places from PSU Vanilla.

***By the way, i am very much aware of the demigod-tier status of Fortetechers in V1. ***

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Rangers attack from distances, Forces attack from closer distances but with more powerful attacks and more targets. Hunter users were ment to be up-close and personal, so when they get to a target they are able to take it down. (Hence why Hunters are really the only class with multiple hit-box capabilities for larger enemies.) Multiple hitboxes = multiplied damage, which is the main reason Heavy weapons (spears, swords, axes) have the highest potental for damage. The Balance problem in the characters doesnt come from the fact Technics are weak, or bullets are weak...melee attacks are just FAR too powerful for their purpose.

A normal sword slash from a 10/10 50% Agito Repca with a lv 150 Beast fF character should be around 1394 damage. A Lv 50 Foie (powerful single spell) with a 10/10 psycho wand and Lv150 Newman FT (Opposite element) does around 3951 damage. When you factor in the fact that Agito Replica also can have lv 40 Gravity Break with multiple combos, suddendly you can balance off the retarded damage that force is doing, since a single hit with GB Lv40 does anywhere from 5,785 to 7,582 damage, depending on the combo.


......Now, the part where Hunters accel in PSU is Multi-target enemies. Vs a larger enemy, the hunter can now multiply that damage range by anywhere from 2 to 4, even 10 if they're using Jarboga (5 targets x 2 hits). Gravity break on an enemy with 2 hitboxes, suddenly you're doing anywhere from 11,570 -15,164 per combo. Lv40 Jarboga on a DeRagan?.....We're talking like 57,000 damage per use. (granted you dont miss any hits and are using the above GODLY setup.)


Now....Lv40 Rafoie with that same techer i mentioned hits 4 SEPARATE targets, and does around 2540 damage each. If the techer is AoEing all his targets, she just did around 10,000 damage. Factor in that Rafoie comes out FAR quicker than Jarboga, and the fact you can get maybe 4 or 5 casts out per Jarboga cooldown 50,000 damage....the DPS balances out almost perfectly. (theroetically. But im pretty sure its accurate enough.) Although in the instance of fighting the dragon, the Force character is mighty handicapped since they lack hitboxes. The Hunter is a character designed for combat with larger enemies, however, which makes them far more cut out for the job. Rangers also can use grenade launchers to overcome their single-target limitations.


Where does the imbalance occur? Just Attack.


If we return to Lv40 Foie vs. Lv 40 Gravity Break with Godly weapons and gear (10/10 50% agito repica/Psycho Wand), we start to encounter some problems. Set them in the same room with the same enemies. Now, where the force and hunter were somewhat balanced in damage capabilities and roles...when you factor in Just Attack, everything goes to hell. Gravity Break now averages an astounding 8600 - 11292 damage per hit, COMPLETELY eclipsing whatever single damage a Force or Ranger can ever dream of outputting. Combine that with a multitarget enemy? 17,000-33,900 DAMAGE. An extra 50% total damage from nowhere. When you switch to AoEs, even Tornado Break now makes Lv40 Rafoie look like shit while being able to hit from 4-6 targets, each doing between 3659 - 4809 damage at any time in a crowd being able to do anywhere from 14,000 - 29,000 at any point in the combo, which is far removed from the 9,000 -- 19,000 it would do without JA, which is far within a fair range of damage once you factor in accuracy and blowaways.




So basically, Just Attack is what ruined the balance in this game. It has completely taken the roles of the force and thrown it out the window, to the point they really ARE nothing but Healbots anymore, since thats the only thing they still accel in. Proof that Just Attack has nuked the balance of this game is this one video i saw of someone comparing FT Ramegid on damage on light enemies vs a whip, which hits far more targets many more times, but with a weaker attack base.

**
Maxed out Acrofighter with 10/10 50% whip (lets pretend Vish Diraga was Dark element, shall we?)

vs

Maxed out FT lv40 Ramegid, 10/10 Psycho Wand.

hitting as many targets as they can in the time it takes the Acrofighter to finish the combo. For this example, lets PRETEND Vish Diraga has dark element.

Acrofighter damage (without JA) = 1660 dmg per hit, 2-3 hits per combo + 6 targets x 2 combos = 23,000 - 40,000 dmg by end of combo.
Fortetecher damage (4-5 casts in duration with rod w/Har Quick + lv2 Retier buff) = around 2600 dmg per cast, 3-4 casts in duration + 4 hits per cast = 31,000 - 41,000 dmg

Looks fair enough, Force has even higher advantage thanks to no accuracy factor, on top of more damage, Force wins AoE challenge.

However, factor in JA for the Whip damage...:

Acrofighter damage (JA'd) = 2500 dmg per hit x 2-3 hits per combo + 6 targets x 2 combos = 30,000 - 45,000 damage.

Factor in Just Attack, and even the Acrofighter replaces the Fortetecher in its main field.



I believe that Just Attack was definately needed to make Hunters more fun...but either it should increase damage by HALF of what it does now, or both Rangers and Forces should have similar gimmicks in order to match them. The whole point of the PA's with their many combos and targets were to offset the fact Hunters DID do far inferior base damage than Forces, and with good reason -- Forces were ment to be the most powerful class in terms of BIG NUMBARZ and crowd control, while hunters were the focused-force of the team. Rangers can play either the crowd control or focus-damage roles, but at least they dont have to get hit. However, with hunters being able to take any weapon and render 95% of a force's Technic Arsenal completely useless, i felt i needed to explain why.



Anddddd thats the way i see it. I ignored the lack of diversity between ranged/melee/technic resistant monsters because i thought it was obvious. Dont believe there were enough technic/range resistant monsters in V1.


/Wall of Research and wasted time

[IrisForscythe]

Well done.

[Sexy_Raine]

Nice comparison, but fighters do not overshadow gunners for certain mission and enemies. IMO, gunners are #1 in AOTI, due to better survivability and SE abuse. I'll stop here, since this topic isn't about gunner vs. fighter.

But I completely agree with the Force comparison and saw it since AOTI came out. There's pretty much no reason to bother playing it anymore. Too bad fighter so boring and always been since PSU V1, so gunner is all I have left. Although I have a Fighmaster, he is low priority, and care don't about maxing PA's but ANA's Jabroga is lv35 though, good enough for any nub party.

[Zyrusticae]

I'm still not sure it's as bad as in this theoretical setup.

I mean, high-% weapons have to be synthed. That takes money, time, and lots and lots of luck. Forces, on the other hand, only need to worry about grinding (if they choose to worry about it at all) and PA levelling. Furthermore, while you're doing that Just Attack, your windup increases, and you're still within melee distance of the enemy, making you even more vulnerable than you already were (and if you're wielding a sword, you're pretty much stock still more than half the time). You can forget about escaping the AoE of a boss's slam attack if you've just started or are in the middle of an attack animation - it's going to hit you no matter what you do, while forces and rangers can just run a short distance to avoid the damage.

Really, I've found going from any melee-primary to a ranged-primary character drastically changes the difficulty of the game. As a melee character, I'm constantly sucking up mates if there's no support techer in the group. Soloing as said character is also not fun. Meanwhile, as a techer or ranger (ESPECIALLY ranger) I only have to drink mates if I make some kind of retarded mistake or get swarmed. Sure, theoretically I can kill things faster with better gear as a melee-er as opposed to a techer, but I sure as hell get knocked around a whole lot more often as one, too.

So, I dnno. That's just my experience. I'm sure someone has some great and awe-inspiring rebuttal in reserve for me.

[mll]

Rangers were always overpowered, they just boosted hunters up to their level and ignored forces.
Having a discussion on balance and not including 1/3 of the classes in the game is kind of pointless surely?

[Zyrusticae]

By the way...

Does anyone actually have a 50% 10/10 Repca?

I mean... seriously?

Couldn't you have used something more realistic? Like, I dnno, a 30% 8/8 Repca or something?

[HienkyakuX]

They need to do a few thing to force:
-Remove Gi tech limit to 6 targets and make it an area damg for anything that gets in that area.
-Make Ra and Gi tech hit more than 1 spot to boss and other mod that wep like axe,spear,grenade launcher and others hit in 2-6 spots at a time....
-Maybe add flinch, knockdown to diga and/or foi.
-Remove the waiting part of megivers at start.

Think that's about it maybe more changes are needed.

[mll]

^ Also another problem with the comparison. Get one PW to 10/10 and you'll never need another weapon basically. Getting one 50% Repca is difficult, getting one to 10/10 is unlikely to happen, ever. Then you have to go out and get 5 more. Then 6 axes, then 6 spears etc. etc.

I don't think fixing techs would solve the problem though. No class in the game needs versatility really, so every partial class is made redundant. No class needs defence or hp (or a support techer for that matter) because you don't need to worry about getting hit by the dumb AI.
The game won't ever be balanced and at this stage does it matter? Every class is overpowered some are just more overpowered than others

[Hiero_Glyph]

Quick note: Acrofighters cannot use whips, so please update your comparison to use either Wartechers or Acrotechers.

[PepperCat]

Certain Fighter weapons barely benefit from grinding at all, (looks at mugunruks) but I pretty much agreed with the entire argument (even though getting a Repca to 10/10 is godly).

Even my FM junk (mostly 38%) on my main can vastly outperform my MF with her 7/7, 8/10, 9/9 P-Wands and 10/10 Pushans x 2.