The bursting of the jRPG bubble: the decline of Square Enix and eternal struggle.

[StriderTuna]

The eternal struggle being the contention between wRPG players and jRPG players.


For a while there's been a slight decline in 'quality' of mainstream jRPGs, with folks calling them movies and so forth, but with how FFXIII was received by the media, it's clear that as the game Catherine quotes, "Love is Over". The ironic thing is that SE actually took pages out of Tales and SMT's notebooks as things like "Directly controlling one character only" and "Leader dying results in a game over" are rather common in such series. The shift in trend bodes badly for the general state of jRPGs as most follow FF's example. And in the eyes of the gamers, jRPGs have hit quite a low, to the point where it's fashionable to bash them.

And if FF's fall from grace, it's up to various series that would have troubles assuming the mantle of Flagship RPG series in the west as in japan, Dragon Quest is still going pretty strong. But in the west, DQ seems to pale in the eyes of many compared to the far more progressive FF. Tri-Ace and Atlus are far too niche to catch the eyes of many and Tales Studio is hampered by Namco's RPG incompetence. Not even the father of FF, Sakaguchi could easily take up the flag as Last Story hasn't caught on like some have hoped.

Western RPGs in contrast are becoming more fashionable despite the flaws apparent in them. I believe it's due to them hitting consoles and having rather high production values while avoiding the infamous excesses of modern jRPGs. Even in spite of overhyped games like Dragon Age 2 or Fable 3, opinion appears rather high still.

This in turn has caused the old rivalry to flare up as some wRPG fans have gotten haughty and sneer down upon jRPGs in general, even as the jRPG fans attempt to explain that not all of them have the now infamous excesses that Final Fantasy and Xenosaga were known for.

Do note that I haven't gotten into MMORPGs as they're a particularly separate case with the biggest names being mainly Blizzard or in a distant second, Nexton, which localizes/publishes various Korean games. PSO was rather ahead of its time, which leads me to wonder how well Sega's efforts with PSO2 will go in the face of fierce competition such as WoW, FFXIV/XI as well as the biggest names in kMMORPGs.

I am curious as to how wRPGers here see things as a different perspective is always welcome.

[Sord]

Honestly, for every wRPG, I seem to see or hear about 4-5 different jRPGs. That may be flooding of the market right there, or that might just be me having a skewed perception. I don't know.

One of the biggest differences though between wRPG and jRPG though, is the amount of action in wRPG games, and the fact they have become more integrated with other game styles. While many jRPGs continue to trudge in the same style for years now (turn based level grind, with a few spins on the combat system.) Take games like Bioshock, Fallout 3, Oblivion (soon Skyrim,) the Fable series, Mass Effect, Borderlands, etc. They were all fairly big hits (though Fable has admittedly been shooting downhill since 2 if you ask me due to lack of difficulty and extremely short playtime.) None of them are like the RPGs of old (and by old, I mean like super nintendo and sega genesis or further back.) Every one of them is a major title and part of a franchise now, and none of them are using turn based combat. You are playing the single role of a character, that engages in actions that are popular in the midwest (shooting or hack n slash, and definitely not turn based.) I think the majority of the west simply does not care for turn based combat, something that's as old as pen and paper gaming. It feels archaic and is no longer very engaging. There's also a much greater immersion when you're controlling your one guy, who can become an extension of yourself. You cannot do this in jRPGs, characters are locked into their personalities and you have to deal with several of them. The only way you are going to get immersion in jRPG is if you like playing 10,000 rounds of the same strategy game (the numerous "fights") and the story actually interests you. Neither of those are well received in the west.

However, some RPGs have come out of the woodwork of Japan that are also not strictly adhering to typical turn based combat with one or two spins thrown in. The Tales series for one. I've met people who didn't really care for jRPGs, but would play these (especially since the release of Symphonia for GC) simply because it was real time combat and it's a great multi-player co-op romp. PSO definitely felt ahead of it's time, because it completely threw the cooldown timer and turn based combat out the window and it was about single character control and actual action, and it was online. While Monster Hunter is still relatively niche, it still at least has a pretty nice following behind it, more so than most other jRPGs over here.

Story wise, jRPGs try and be too complex half the time, and it usually seems like it turns around and bites them in the ass. One of their biggest problems seems to be the constant rehash of character tropes. Now that every jRPG is trying to throw in 20 damn characters or something (perhaps to appear epic or something,) character writing is stretched thin (or maybe they really are just terrible writers now.) Even major franchises like FFXIII suffer from this, heavily. Within the first few hours of gameplay, every single character can be immediately pegged as an overused archetype. That's not to say wRPGs don't use them, but since we usually play the role of a silent character we don't deal with it from the main guy, and anyone we bump into quest wise might be there for a little bit, but not really long enough to even care they are a cliched character.

One could argue that jRPGs aren't even RPGs. What "role" are you even playing? All characters are locked into their personalities and you're moving through a dozen or more of them. That's not roleplaying, that's just strategy gaming. The Legend of Zelda is more true to the term RPG than most jRPGs actually are.

Then there's voice acting, it's very well respected in Japan, not so much over here. Most localized jRPGs have shit for voice acting, and whenever the whole game starts feeling like a movie, well, who wants to listen to 40-100 hours of shitty voices that grate on the ears? While this is the fault of the localization team, and not really of gameplay development, when you're throwing long cut-scenes in every hour or two and speaking nearly every bit of text, it gets old, fast. wRPGs don't suffer as heavily from this (though some do,) because they were made by the west, for the west. They feature prominent voice actors in western gameing, sometimes even actors from movies or TV shows. It's far more enjoyable, and talking is not as over used because we're playing a silent character half the time. On top of this, the current trend is to give a player several different choices so they can play the way they want. Not lock them into a long story they are probably going to hate peppered with repetitive combat that can take 5 minutes to an hour. Shoot/slash an enemy a few times, he's downed, you move on. Turn based combat, have fun running around in a dungeon, getting hit with random encounters every 10 seconds that initiate an opening sequence, a long period of gameplay time (in comparison, a few seconds to several minutes is a big jump when added up,) and then a winning sequence (unless you lost of course.) Then you go back to your character, take 20-50 steps, BOOM. DO IT AGAIN. Suddenly thirty minutes to an hour later you've maybe covered a small stretch of land. Once again, this gets old, fast. And for all the pretty graphics and over-the-top epicness they throw in, every move loses it's luster when you've casted it on enemies a million freaking times.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with liking the gameplay of jRPGs, to be fair, some have pretty deep and intricate battle systems that can really do a lot with some micromanaging. However, that is not a popular trend over here. Especially with more casual gamers (which, btw, have pretty much exploded into the market,) that only play an hour or two at any given time. A lot of people don't want to invest time in getting through a learning curve. They just want to sit back and relax and play a game whose gameplay comes intuitively to them.


Then there's marketing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see western games get better marketing in the west than games from the east do. Sometimes there are some trend breaking jRPGs that really should have been better marketed over here and could have succeeded with it. That, however, is not the only issue, and anyone that thinks so is seriously fooling themselves.

I've very interested to see how well the new PSP FF (Type-Zero) will do. It's a major J franchise title breaking away from the jRPG trend in gameplay mechanics (and it's not Crystal Chronicles, ouph.)

That's my take on it at least.

Wish I could have a counter for every person that isn't going to read this 'cause of length, lol.

[NoiseHERO]

cut

I agree with your first two paragraphs...

Then I scrolled down...

and saw like 8 more or something and got discouraged from reading...

For me... J-RPG gaming died after tales of symphonia...

Mostly because I couldn't afford RPG games afterwards, then I just got into PSU and stopped playing other videogames outside of handhelds altogether...

[Mantiskilla]

Just my opinion but I tend to think that part of the jRPG genre has declined due to the bulk of the age bracket who grew up with it are well getting older. jRPG tend to be time consuming and thats a good thing; however, with a lot of the audience who fueled the rise of the genre being older (college, out of college, married, career, etc.) I think a big chunk of those people who used to purchase the games no longer do, or if they do it's not an immediate, or important purchase. With some younger audiences out there today there are very good wRPGs to chose from so that can also play into the decline of it over here. Years ago obviously you either played a jRPG or not much else.

[Powder Keg]

I think the main reason it's in a decline is because...

Japan: Everyone has PS3, make JRPGs for PS3. We won't make JRPGs for 360 because no one here has that.

US: No one has PS3, oops JRPG sales suck.

Then companies like Namco don't translate their better titles and put a great game like Tales of the Abyss on......the 3DS?? It's like they're looking for excuses to say the market here sucks.


And Square-Enix has been declining in quality since..........they became Square-Enix. The only right thing they've done are their remakes. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed FFXIII but I can totally understand why people would hate it.

[BIG OLAF]

I'm not really a fan of jRPGs. Since I don't like anime, and most jRPGs are made in an "anime" style, they really just don't appeal to me. The only exception I've ever made to the rule was the Phantasy Star series, obviously.

I much prefer wRPG series, like TES, Fallout, Mass Effect, etc.

[StriderTuna]

Wow... it'll take me time to answer all the points, but I'll do that. Thanks for the answers. I'll edit this post with them when I get around to it.

To Siyamak: I'lll need a whole other post to answer you.

To Michaeru: There's more good stuff after ToS, though the GC was terrible for RPGs and I don't recall RPG games being particularly more expensive than other types. (Then again I rarely brought games new) My problem was that on the PS2 there were so many games, some of the fell through my cracks.

To Mantiskilla: Good point, but back in the old days, most wRPGs were PC only and most jRPGs were console only, and the conflict was part of the PC vs Console battle as PC fans called console gamers immature, and console gamers calling PC gamers elitist (Not just anyone could have a prime gaming PC), narrow minded (PCs were mainly known for wRPGs and FPS). I think part of it is how companies pad the hours these days (cinemas, unfairly difficult mini-games) but I could take up a post with my commentary on quality>quantity. Also I think jRPGs are receding back to the niche it came from (before FF7) and likewise the people that play them still are those that played them in the past.

To Powder Keg: That's rather true, though in japan the microsoft systems were something of a joke before ToV, with the PS3 being the big system. In the west, most jrpgers either have a PS3 or not, hardly an 360 (mainly with wRPGers and FPS players). It's only recently that the PS3 have been picking up in sales.

As far as Namco, there's been many things.

The 2d games: Sony's anti-2d policy and Namco's relucance to pressforward (like aksys games)

ToV PS3: the 360 version didn't "sell well enough" (they expected FF level sales on a game w/ hardly any advertising and on a system not known for jrpgs; i.e. typical namco)

TotA 3DS was the result of the producer wanting to make a portable high end tales game and considered the 3DS perfect for it. The Vita at this point is basically conceptual and not produced yet), it might actually sell systems. It's enough to make me want it.

To BIG OLAF: True, they're made with japanese asthetics foremost with few exceptions. The Valkyire Profile series is an example, mainly the first game as the latter two games had a bit of decay (some animeish elements popped up, but rather minor). I consider the style for say Dragon Age well done, not so much WoW (very comic bookish in how exaggerated things are). But wRPG design has always been very traditional

But on a separate note, I hope you're not a fan of the "Angry bald man" design school of western games made popular as of late (It's like they can't program hair or be bothered to)

[Mantiskilla]

Nah actually you probably should say most wRPGs back in the day were just getting onto PCs during the Nintendo era (SVGA graphically anyway). Really at the end of the day it was still far more popular with pencil and paper. The King's Quests, Quest for Glory's, and D&Ds of the world were still a pretty new concept, but at the same time jRPGs really didn't explode until the late NES, SNES/Genesis era over here and by then some wRPGs already were on consoles like Dungeons and Dragons Warriors of the Eternal Sun on Genesis. Good summary though on responses. Thanks for your input

[NoiseHERO]

To Michaeru: There's more good stuff after ToS, though the GC was terrible for RPGs and I don't recall RPG games being particularly more expensive than other types. (Then again I rarely brought games new) My problem was that on the PS2 there were so many games, some of the fell through my cracks.

Oh I know, I was just too broke in general. My old lady stop givin' up the christmas money cause of my grades nam sayin'?

And then I felt like I didn't have a reason to play rpg's in general anymore after PSU. :S So by the time like 20 tales of/persona/star ocean/whatevers popular now games came out, I was no longer interested, some reasons also because of what that other dude said: "growing up."

[StriderTuna]

Nah actually you probably should say most wRPGs back in the day were just getting onto PCs during the Nintendo era (SVGA graphically anyway). Really at the end of the day it was still far more popular with pencil and paper. The King's Quests, Quest for Glory's, and D&Ds of the world were still a pretty new concept, but at the same time jRPGs really didn't explode until the late NES, SNES/Genesis era over here and by then some wRPGs already were on consoles like Dungeons and Dragons Warriors of the Eternal Sun on Genesis. Good summary though on responses. Thanks for your input

Yeah I do remember how wRPGs were super niche compared to the few jrpgs we got back then. And the Snes era was the beginning of the golden era of RPGs. In a way "The Spirits within" was a factor in the end of such widespread creativity.

Oh I know, I was just too broke in general. My old lady stop givin' up the christmas money cause of my grades nam sayin'?

And then I felt like I didn't have a reason to play rpg's in general anymore after PSU. :S So by the time like 20 tales of/persona/star ocean/whatevers popular now games came out, I was no longer interested, some reasons also because of what that other dude said: "growing up."

Well... bad grades were never a problem, though I didn't get much in the way of money until I hit 18 where I had jobs easily supplying my buying habits. Well... some in my family believe "Just be cause you grow old doesn't mean you have to grow up (completely).