Braver Class Talk

[Zipzo]

Those aren't valid comparisons, Zipzo. Slide Shaker takes as much time to execute once as Assault Buster does three times and Slide End does twice, Nova Strike takes several seconds of charging time to simply compete with the damage of Sonic Arrow or Over End. Put simply, you can outright kill a single group of mobs faster with the latter four than the former two. Since KK does half SE's damage but executes twice as fast, has a larger area, and doesn't take as long to position, you can likely kill a single group of mobs just as fast, if not faster, with KK than you can with SE, you'll just expend more PP to do it. But even that doesn't matter if you'd have had to use two SEs to kill the wave anyways.

I do not believe the time fits so neatly in to your argument. I think two fully charged Kanrans is closer to 3-3.5/4ths the speed of 2 Sakura.

Also just the fact that it would cost double the PP is a good enough argument to use Sakura instead.

[Zenobia]

Seriously, what the fuck are you even talking about? Why do I care about your 60/60 Human Hu/Fi who's now a Fi/Hu, and why has survivability entered the discussion?



It's already been said, but OB has that range in every direction, flinches, and executes more than twice as fast. SE may have a respectable area of effect, but it's still a rectangle. Will you at least acknowledge that there are situations in which, even for damage purposes, OB would be preferable to SE?

You are fucking stupid Its like talking to a box of fucking rocks and that's sad

Sakura-Endo beats any katana pA.

My Pure S atk mag>your hybrid that is all and my pure dex one will to.

Why are you even arguing this I do not know like damn.

[Rien]

Question - What the hell determines Combat Finish's damage?

Is it like a hidden Chain Trigger? Is it determined by damage dealt before Finish? Does it have to do with the timer?

...Or what if Combat Finish's damage was simply consistent so you could hit Finish when the best moment shows itself?

[Zipzo]

So I did some testing.

I took a video of me doing both PAs twice in a row, from JA to JA. I put the video in my editor so I could monitor it down to the very millisecond. I started counting from the moment there is any character movement from standstill, to the very moment there is a complete halt in character movement, where you sheath and then the battle stance sort of lingers a bit before you go back to standing up right.

x2 Kanran clocks in at ~3.08 seconds.
x2 Sakura clocks in at ~4.08 seconds.

Given there might be human error on my numerations in the millisecond values (probably very little amounts because my video editor is awesome) it's sort of hilarious because it basically makes me empirically correct on my assumption that x2 Kanran is roughly and ~ equal to 3/4ths the duration of x2 Sakura, which invalidates all speed matching arguments.

Another one bites the dust.

[Narrillnezzurh]

Sorry Zipzo, but I don't think the sheathe animation should be included as it can be canceled both by a JA and by a step. Ideally it should never occur during combat, ever.

I actually timed all the PAs and the normal attack myself, and I'll post the times below. The first three times are for a single use and the following three, if present, are for a chain of three. All trials consisted of a normal attack followed by a JA'd PA followed by a JA'd normal attack, or a normal attack followed by three JA'd PAs followed by a JA'd normal attack. The stopwatch was started when I clicked the PA button the first time and stopped when I clicked the normal attack button at the end. For SE and KK I also did two trials in which I timed the number of PAs I was able to perform during a 30 second portion of a Rockbear fight to see how the longer animation of SE affected PP generation - this is the number at the end of KK and SE's rows. During those 30 seconds I did not attempt to hit the Rockbear's face, and I dodged as little as possible. I only did one trial for each PA, so further testing is required to make any conclusions, but I'll post my results anyways.

EDIT: About a dozen trials of my starting the stopwatch when the JA circle turns red and stopping it when the sheathing sound plays shows the sheathe animation up to the sheathing itself to be around 530ms with a variance of up to 60ms. If we assume that residual character movement occupies the last 200ms of the animation, which I think is reasonable, our times our right on point with each other.

PA  -  T1    , T2    , T3     -  T1    , T2    , T3

HT  -  1.398 , 1.396 , 1.390  -  4.205 , 4.133 , 4.144
TS  -  0.533 , 0.528 , 0.508
KK  -  0.914 , 0.939 , 0.874  -  2.619 , 2.763 , 2.738  -  13
SE  -  1.691 , 1.630 , 1.644  -  5.196 , 5.033 , 5.115  -  10
GZ  -  0.702 , 0.673 , 0.746

Normal Attacks:
1st -  0.435 , 0.477 , 0.414
2nd -  0.414 , 0.467 , 0.490
3rd -  0.547 , 0.648 , 0.607

As you can see, the execution time for a single KK is consistently just over half the execution time of an SE. These are by no means conclusive and I'd love for you to test the timing yourself (EDIT: Test it in a similar manner, please), but there was very little variance in these trials.

I also decided to time myself killing the first wave in the Nab 2 TA several times with both PAs. I made sure before hand that SE would kill mobs with one execution and KK would kill with two. For KK I was able to eliminate the first wave (up to but not including the aginis) in 35, 27, and 29 seconds. With SE I was able to do the same in 32, 33, and 37 seconds. Again, I encourage you to try these yourself and post the results, but I'm seeing the two to be close at best for a room full of well spaced mobs.

[FerrickX]

[FerrickX]

Question - What the hell determines Combat Finish's damage?

Is it like a hidden Chain Trigger? Is it determined by damage dealt before Finish? Does it have to do with the timer?

...Or what if Combat Finish's damage was simply consistent so you could hit Finish when the best moment shows itself?

from the way i see it, its timer based, especially after testing it with premature shot and timed ones against bosses, though to be honest i'm not entirely sure because sometimes the damage stays the same even after timed and premature shot

[Narrillnezzurh]

I think things are going swimmingly to be honest.

[Cyclon]

Do not listen to that man

You are fucking stupid Its like talking to a box of fucking rocks and that's sad

Sakura-Endo beats any katana pA.

My Pure S atk mag>your hybrid that is all and my pure dex one will to.

Why are you even arguing this I do not know like damn.

No need for disrespect either though

Sorry Zipzo, but I don't think the sheathe animation should be included as it can be canceled both by a JA and by a step.

Aaaaand my eyes just rolled but whatever.
For what it's worth, kanran's ability to floor an entire flying pests squadron in an instant is really valuable imo. Someone may already have said this though.

Hien tsubaki is pretty great for when you need to hit something behind a hitbox, hit things in a fanned out area, or want to stay in the air for a bit.

Actually I realized that Hein is probably our best options again weakpoints that are too high to jump Sakura them. So it's out of the useless corner as well.

[Zipzo]

Sorry Zipzo, but I don't think the sheathe animation should be included as it can be canceled both by a JA and by a step. Ideally it should never occur during combat, ever.

I actually timed all the PAs and the normal attack myself, and I'll post the times below. The first three times are for a single use and the following three, if present, are for a chain of three. All trials consisted of a normal attack followed by a JA'd PA followed by a JA'd normal attack, or a normal attack followed by three JA'd PAs followed by a JA'd normal attack. The stopwatch was started when I clicked the PA button the first time and stopped when I clicked the normal attack button at the end. For SE and KK I also did two trials in which I timed the number of PAs I was able to perform during a 30 second portion of a Rockbear fight to see how the longer animation of SE affected PP generation - this is the number at the end of KK and SE's rows. During those 30 seconds I did not attempt to hit the Rockbear's face, and I dodged as little as possible. I only did one trial for each PA, so further testing is required to make any conclusions, but I'll post my results anyways.

EDIT: About a dozen trials of my starting the stopwatch when the JA circle turns red and stopping it when the sheathing sound plays shows the sheathe animation up to the sheathing itself to be around 530ms with a variance of up to 60ms. If we assume that residual character movement occupies the last 200ms of the animation, which I think is reasonable, our times our right on point with each other.

PA  -  T1    , T2    , T3     -  T1    , T2    , T3

HT  -  1.398 , 1.396 , 1.390  -  4.205 , 4.133 , 4.144
TS  -  0.533 , 0.528 , 0.508
KK  -  0.914 , 0.939 , 0.874  -  2.619 , 2.763 , 2.738  -  13
SE  -  1.691 , 1.630 , 1.644  -  5.196 , 5.033 , 5.115  -  10
GZ  -  0.702 , 0.673 , 0.746

Normal Attacks:
1st -  0.435 , 0.477 , 0.414
2nd -  0.414 , 0.467 , 0.490
3rd -  0.547 , 0.648 , 0.607

As you can see, the execution time for a single KK is consistently just over half the execution time of an SE. These are by no means conclusive and I'd love for you to test the timing yourself (EDIT: Test it in a similar manner, please), but there was very little variance in these trials.

I also decided to time myself killing the first wave in the Nab 2 TA several times with both PAs. I made sure before hand that SE would kill mobs with one execution and KK would kill with two. For KK I was able to eliminate the first wave (up to but not including the aginis) in 35, 27, and 29 seconds. With SE I was able to do the same in 32, 33, and 37 seconds. Again, I encourage you to try these yourself and post the results, but I'm seeing the two to be close at best for a room full of well spaced mobs.

While your "First wave clears" are seemingly sensible as a means for testing, the time can be unadulterated with skill or lack there-of, so I don't find clear speed to be a good reference at all. Maybe you stink at using either PA? Maybe you stink using both at differing levels?

Since I agree with referencing the times given the sheath is cancelled (<---I just made an old school reference, how many will catch it?), I will re-do the test and this time I will cancel it as quickly as is humanly possible with a step and I will start from when movement first occurs on the character sprite, and end it when movement completely halts after the step. Give me a few minutes.