Sounds like we've been here before.
Sounds like we've been here before.
Yesterday, I posted a similar inquiry in the "Quick Questions" thread (but wasn't answered).
I was wondering how well Summoners fare in XH TD3 and XH TD4, especially against packs of Goldies; is killing them a "chore" even with 10* or above pets with "decked-out" candy boxes?
Edit:
Grammar corrections.
Last edited by Evangelion X.XX; Feb 24, 2016 at 12:00 AM.
I don't mind SU in AQ/LQ, but I get hemorrhoids when I seen them in my TD/Magatsu/PD MPA.
People should level their pets, get the pancakes/parfaits and wait for SEGA to release some kind of damage buff or better pets.
And seriously, who cares if a pet can kill things in SH, at this point every non-optimal class combos can kill SH mobs and bosses.
Episodic ritual, just like pottery.Originally Posted by Selphea
Well, this kind of complaint always happened to green class without fail.
This will be fixed by OP stuff and inevitable happy ending.
Been using *13 torim loaded with good but not best candy, killing them felt very hard due to lack of AoE, constant movement and unfair PP consumption.
Though, destroying cores are kinda easy to do, so you can make them to not explode while killing those thing near the tower.
Overall i think SU are the worst class to use for TD EQs.
Last edited by wefwq; Feb 24, 2016 at 12:06 AM.
^Alright. Thx for info.
My typical routine for TD is to spam Sari Chaser at the Goldrahda mobs to round them up, then go to town on their faces using Wanda Break/Slicer/Shock once they bunch up around me.
They die from five hits of Break on their weak point using a maxed out 13* Wanda; less if Alter Ego and other buffs are active.
Finally got some rest. Only had like an hour's sleep yesterday.
I haven't really noticed myself (especially on XH, Summoners seem rare) but I'd imagine the pressing issue would be that most people don't know how to keep pets alive as Summoner.
- Pets can't easily dodge. This is fatal in boss EQs. I think most people don't even bother dodging with their characters. The amount of people I see dying in EQs is staggering.
- To keep your pets alive, you have to switch to another weapon to hide them. I doubt many people do this. I have one female friend who does not even like to switch weapon palettes.
- There are probably tons of people who lose all their pets quickly, and literally cannot contribute for lengthy periods. At all. That seems like bad design to me. In other games, Pet class characters can still attack by themselves.
- Most people probably won't know you need to use Candy Box to pump pet defenses, or they go splat.
- I'd imagine most people won't bother replacing their Candy Box because of how you need to exchange a bunch of crap just to remove/replace/erase, etc.
- Did they seriously think most people would bother to remove Caramel Cubes? Why are they even in there, aside from making us waste Cubes? For sense of "progression"?
- I'm sure a lot of people don't realize how important the element pancakes are. I mean, I didn't.
- The way it's setup, you need to get good pancakes from the get-go, but the tutorial teaches people to slap a rank 1 in.
- You can't even take the tutorial pancake out after, you have to erase it. I'm sure that discourages people from getting 50 element from the start.
It's really a design issue.
They made Summoner look like a class for kids/beginners.
But as with how PSO2 is designed in general, there are too many pitfalls that result in very crappy Summoners.
I tried to get a few friends into Summoner (both JP and not, male and female), but they just couldn't be bothered learning how to use the Candy Box.
That's already a big fat epic fail, SEGA.
In regards to playing a Summoner effectively.... my personal experience:
I set up all of my Candy Boxes like Z-0's template, but with a little more defense and most of them without the fancy 11-13 star Candies.
Most of my pets are only rarity 9, some with 10. They are all at least level 75. Only one character has pets maxed in bonus stats, I've been mostly ignoring bonus stats.
One character has a 12 Wanda and 12 Torim, but honestly haven't noticed much difference in effectiveness, especially when compared with my other Summoners with lesser rarity.
I have 3 active Summoners right now. They all hit hard.
I literally do not take my Summoners anywhere until I'm done feeding their pets to at least 75. Because I don't enjoy being weak as nuts. It's not fun.
According to OverParse, I still easily bust out 10% of the multi's damage consistently, sometimes up to 20%. This is on both SH and XH.
During EQs like Sea Lab, Eluther, TD1/3 or the first 2016 badge limited quest, I'm usually in the top 5 damage, and fairly often in the top 2 or 3.
I also sometimes show up in the top 3 during TDs, just from killing stuff and defending towers.
In TD4, as Su/Br, I've repeatedly Guren Tessen dashed to packs like the Exoda x2 and Maluda, tagged Maluda and destroyed both Exoda cannons ALONE.
I don't think I achieve that as efficiently or easily with other classes.
Remember, this is with my sub-par incomplete low rarity no fancy Candies setup.
Only one character has a Torim with the +boss damage parfait, and that's only about +7% damage.
All I'm doing is keeping pets alive, using Assist to increase damage, and spamming crap like Torim Stab.
I don't use Sympathy consistently, because quite frankly it's a pain up the ass. I use the shared HP skill, but it often gets me killed.
My contributing damage percentage jumps if I land a successful Torim Spiral, but that's very situational.
I feel like Summoner is really strong. Clunky as hell, but strong.
But because of all the pitfalls and the clunkiness, I'm sure that a lot of people are underperforming.
Again, they don't really realize it, because there's no way for them to be sure unless they use a 3rd party tool.
In regards to people leaving... my personal thoughts:
There are too many reasons for people to leave. Here are some of the fundamental game design issues causing this that immediately come to mind:
- No Weak Bullet. Runs are super slow without it. This leads to the next problem:
- EQ time is too short. 30 minutes. It used to be 1 hour, which was more relaxed.
- Most people have a ton of characters. Everyone wants more loot, so they want to run multiple characters. Of course people are going to rush.
- Boost ticket timers. This causes so many problems: discourages people from playing outside of select EQs, causes people to rush, leech, etc.
- If a group doesn't perform well, you don't get good loots or EXP.
- Doesn't matter how well you play if other people suck. Depending on the EQ, a mere few people sucking can cause huge problems. I've seen 1-2 people causing XH Loser to take 10 minutes longer.
- Nobody knows if they are playing effectively or not. I mean, I felt like I was carrying multis most of the time, but I wasn't sure until I used OverParse.
- There is no penalty for leaving. But adding a penalty in itself creates issues (ie. punishing people who just got disconnected, etc).
Here's how I would solve the above game design issues, and these are fairly simple solutions, most of which are already in the game in some form or another:
- Make EQs like PSO2ES's. Instead of a 30 minute window for accepting quests, allow everyone to do EQs only a certain number of times, for up to an hour or two after an EQ's initial start. This greatly increases the chance that everyone can get maximum runs, at their leisure. They already have the basics of this system in place for some EQs like Magatsu, but they only did this in response to people killing Magatsu fast.
- Change boost tickets to only affect a certain amount of enemies/boss kills/loot gems, etc. No timer. This way, people won't have incentive to rush.
- Allow people to see their personal comparative effectiveness. That way, they will know if they were contributing significantly or not. Even better if the game can identify where they are lacking and tell them where they need to improve.
- Introduce a weak penalty for leaving, such as being unable to rejoin for a short amount of time. Perhaps increase the penalty for people with a long record of leaving repeatedly, because I don't think anybody should be leaving repeatedly.
- Simplify or clarify some of the games stats, skills, etc. I'm sure a lot of people still have no idea what they are doing, mostly thanks to the game being so vague, inconsistent and overcomplicated in some areas.
- Either give everyone a skill like Weak Bullet, or remove multiparty reliance on it. They really shouldn't be designing the game around people using Weak Bullet on bosses. It got a lot worse with how SH to XH is mostly just an increase in HP, which WB directly affects. The "weak WB" nerf in recent EQs is a step in the right direction, but it's still essentially the same issue.
- Amount of loot/EXP could be individual based instead of multi based. Then people wouldn't feel like their efforts are going to waste. I know I don't feel like playing anymore when I see everyone else sucking.
- The game needs to add more practical tutorials that show people how they should be playing, allowing them to experiment in a training scenario. As I said before, SH to XH Loser is very confusing because the strategy for defeating him changes completely. Also, most people don't know how to use AIS. Prior to TD3, the game doesn't introduce them to the AIS at all.
The big issue here is that SEGA is focusing on marketing the game to non-gamers. I don't want to say "casuals", but literally people who do not play games much. At all.
On top of this, the game design is needlessly convoluted, even for a seasoned gamer. I have a friend who is strong at Dark Souls and fighting games, but is confused by Phantasy Star Online 2.
There are tons of pitfalls everywhere to get people to spend money, too.
Couple the above problems with "new content is often a difficulty increase relying heavily on equipment strength, setup and player skill", and it's a recipe for disaster.
I'm thinking that until SEGA does something about all this stupidity and bad design, I should put a warning above my own head expressing that I'm a good Summoner player.
I think it is, I included it in my translations from the swiki a while back.
The JP friend I go to for info (they experiment with everything) also told me that from day one a friend complained to them about Bal Lodos's ball being unbreakable as a lone Summoner.
I also noticed that when fighting Ringarda, he gets up way sooner if you're a Summoner.
Ohh. Sorry. Then I don't know about that.
Yes. I used to keep ending up in really bad EQs with literally around 10 Bouncers. That wasn't even when everyone was levelling Bouncer.
But I think Summoner is way worse. At least with affixes people can still buy good stuff from player shops. With Candy Boxes, it's actually more complex.
And Bouncers don't have issues like becoming completely useless because their weapon keeps dying.
Last edited by TaigaUC; Feb 24, 2016 at 01:04 AM.
Spoiler!
In other words, summoner is not bad as long you know what to do. As for the 13＊ pet guy, you surely are doing something wrong with torim.
Spoiler!
It's a shame that the SU who knows what he is doing let Green get destroyedSpoiler!
In other words, summoner is not bad as long you know what to do. As for the 13＊ pet guy, you surely are doing something wrong with torim.There is also the fact that you actually got to 5k points from crystals which no XH MPA should be doing. Most of my XH pub runs don't even get to 2k.
TD points don't mean shit because all you could be doing is stealing last hits. I noticed you also got 破壊王 which is just attacking the bosses. I have got that title by not being able to hit anything for all 5 waves and only hitting Vibrace.
The only way someone can prove SU is good for the MPA (namely TD) is by showing videos.
Isn't that title given to the person who did in total the most damage during the quest?
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